A change in British politics... or a blip?

[rory_20_uk]

In the last few days there's been MPs leaving both the Labour and now the Conservative Party. The stated reasons are rather radically different - anti-semetism in the former case and screwing up Brexit in the latter.

So as things stand, the group appears to stand for little beyond not wanting to be part of the others. Coupled with our dreadful First Past the Post, minority groups have a nasty habit of being subsumed / destroyed "a vote for a third party will give the other block you hate more a better chance!"

Might this be a catalyst for actual change to the Politics in the UK, or will this be another brief flash in the pan?

[Beskar]

[rory_20_uk]

I've seen all of Mr Grey's videos. The rules for rulers was my favourite and I've read the book behind it. Very enlightening.

You might be unaware that a couple of years ago there was a vote on whether we'd move from First Past the Post to single transferrable vote. And people voted to remain with the status quo... Yet these videos clearly demonstrate in about 5 minutes how the system we have is pretty much worse than any alternative.

Is it that a semi-professional has more insight and clarity than the entire UK government - or was there in fact no desire to change the system that works well for the current politicians and their needs.

[Beskar]

You might be unaware that a couple of years ago there was a vote on whether we'd move from First Past the Post to single transferrable vote. And people voted to remain with the status quo... Yet these videos clearly demonstrate in about 5 minutes how the system we have is pretty much worse than any alternative.

It was a vote on replacing FPTP with Alternative-Vote (not STV). It was a Referendum which got zero support in Parliament other than the Lib-dems in the Lib-dem Tory coalition. The Referendum was mandated by the Lib-dems as a condition of coalition.

This lack of support feeds into your ending point. The current system benefits the two-party system (arguably now one-party) and by opening it up, it reduces their power.

[Tuuvi]

Just curious, what's the basis for the allegations that the Labour party is anti-Semetic?

[Pannonian]

Just curious, what's the basis for the allegations that the Labour party is anti-Semetic?

The ruling faction is full of people who perpetuate anti-semitic myths. Do you remember the opening episode of West Wing where this right wing Christian fundie rails against east coast liberals and Tobie reads this (correctly) as Jews? There are left wing equivalents for this anti-semitic vocab, and it's become currency among the ruling faction in Labour. And because it's currency in the ruling faction, it's also become institutionalised. Complaints about anti-semitism have to push against a lot of friction as they typically get lost up the chain, with one of the departing MPs having had death threats against her covered up.

[Furunculus]

Just curious, what's the basis for the allegations that the Labour party is anti-Semetic?

my own thought is that the problem derives from the neoprogressive view that all relations must be understood through power and oppression of identity groups:
there is no room for any alternative motivation when looking at how one group relates to another, not affection, affinity, self interest, just power and oppression.
power held by one group, used to oppress another.

derida has a lot to answer for, as even though 90% of the identitarian left have never heard of him he has poisoned their view of the world.
and of course we now have the alt-right who choose to see world through the same distorted prism, with themselves as the unjustly 'oppressed'.

back to israel:
it has a problem, they are deemed to have power in the mythology of the left (the protocols of the elders of zion), and there is a group they are intimately associated with who are considered to be more oppressed (those poor old palestinians).
when you view the world solely through identity politics then it is impossible for israel and israeli's to present as anything more than an exploitative oppressor.

when i describe myself as a classical liberal, this above is the antithesis of that view:
I couldn't give a flying buck about [your] group identity, how oppressed it is, or how concerned you are about the legitimacy of your grievance against your notional oppressor.
I care about people, not groups, and my prime political motivation is that people are treated decently, with justice and equity.
but that is not the reality that the identitarian left and right exist within.

that CPG Gray vid suffers from a similar problem; an obsession with group identity. of course there is no way i would vote for a black man, or a woman, or a disabled person! irony alert.

this being a great example:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tizenship.html
our John is totally justified in believing that a brit fighting for israel deserves removal of citizenship, where he is at worst indifferent to the plight of shamima the headhacker bride. power and oppression.

and another:
https://twitter.com/PureGodfrey/stat...40636177649664

[Furunculus]

In the last few days there's been MPs leaving both the Labour and now the Conservative Party. The stated reasons are rather radically different - anti-semetism in the former case and screwing up Brexit in the latter.

So as things stand, the group appears to stand for little beyond not wanting to be part of the others. Coupled with our dreadful First Past the Post, minority groups have a nasty habit of being subsumed / destroyed "a vote for a third party will give the other block you hate more a better chance!"

Might this be a catalyst for actual change to the Politics in the UK, or will this be another brief flash in the pan?

Yes, brexit breaks all of the assumptions that underpin the status quo.

Nothing is sacred, and an institution's survival is only guaranteed by reinventing itself faster than the world is changing to ensure it remains perceived as relevant to the problems of the future.

tories / labour / fptp / monarchy / nhs / nukes

All of it!

[Husar]

Yes, brexit breaks all of the assumptions that underpin the status quo.

Nothing is sacred, and an institution's survival is only guaranteed by reinventing itself faster than the world is changing to ensure it remains perceived as relevant to the problems of the future.

tories / labour / fptp / monarchy / nhs / nukes

All of it!

The neoliberal marketization of everything.

[Furunculus]

i'm sorry, i can't tell; is this a serious response, or are you 'triggering' me?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

i'm sorry, i can't tell; is this a serious response, or are you 'triggering' me?

The two goals are not incommensurate.

[Husar]

i'm sorry, i can't tell; is this a serious response, or are you 'triggering' me?

What Seamus said. It sounds a bit like you would replace the government entirely with an unelected corporation if "the market for organizations" led to that. Putting every aspect of life under the dictate of the market is neoliberalism at its best.
That this would trigger you was just an added benefit.

[Furunculus]

What Seamus said. It sounds a bit like you would replace the government entirely with an unelected corporation if "the market for organizations" led to that. Putting every aspect of life under the dictate of the market is neoliberalism at its best.
That this would trigger you was just an added benefit.

since I am certain you have noticed that i didn't mention "market" once or allude to market solutions in any way, i'm going to presume you are having fun rather than providing a serious answer.

that understood, rather than point out that there are hundreds of years of liberal thought before the word "teh-neolibz" was ever heard, i'm going to ask you to stop having 'fun'.

i go to some effort to put time and thought into my replies and i would like to do you the same courtesy with yours, but hey, i'm a busy chap and i'd rather my response was not to simply ignore what you say.

what do you say?

[Montmorency]

my own thought is that the problem derives from the neoprogressive view that all relations must be understood through power and oppression of identity groups:
there is no room for any alternative motivation when looking at how one group relates to another, not affection, affinity, self interest, just power and oppression.
power held by one group, used to oppress another.

derida has a lot to answer for, as even though 90% of the identitarian left have never heard of him he has poisoned their view of the world.
and of course we now have the alt-right who choose to see world through the same distorted prism, with themselves as the unjustly 'oppressed'.

back to israel:
it has a problem, they are deemed to have power in the mythology of the left (the protocols of the elders of zion), and there is a group they are intimately associated with who are considered to be more oppressed (those poor old palestinians).
when you view the world solely through identity politics then it is impossible for israel and israeli's to present as anything more than an exploitative oppressor.

when i describe myself as a classical liberal, this above is the antithesis of that view:
I couldn't give a flying buck about [your] group identity, how oppressed it is, or how concerned you are about the legitimacy of your grievance against your notional oppressor.
I care about people, not groups, and my prime political motivation is that people are treated decently, with justice and equity.
but that is not the reality that the identitarian left and right exist within.

that CPG Gray vid suffers from a similar problem; an obsession with group identity. of course there is no way i would vote for a black man, or a woman, or a disabled person! irony alert.

this being a great example:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tizenship.html
our John is totally justified in believing that a brit fighting for israel deserves removal of citizenship, where he is at worst indifferent to the plight of shamima the headhacker bride. power and oppression.

and another:
https://twitter.com/PureGodfrey/stat...40636177649664

I'm sorry, but that all seems well off the mark for me, the heap of straw beneath the right-liberal dogma.

I have a simpler treatment: both the European right and left have always harbored anti-Semitism. Today overall less so, because less so by general society. Stereotypes persist today because of the long-declining consciousness of Jewishness (as opposed to foreign policy toward Israel) within Europe.

[Furunculus]

i'm happy to accept that what you list is [a] factor... in general terms for people at large.

but not a useful explanation for the curiosity of the avowedly "anti-racist" left in uk politics... who seem to have a real problem with teh-jews.