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Thread: A change in British politics... or a blip?

  1. #31

    Default Re: A change in British politics... or a blip?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    You haven't really convinced me here that I am wrong...

    I note with interest the contributions of Pannonian and Beskar on the question on antisemitism in Labour, and I do not disagree.
    I am also happy to accept the point you made more generally about people.
    I do question how much weight we should give to a report written about labour antisemitism... from within the party itself. Conflict of interest, much?

    All of these are valuable additions, but i've read nothing here that would invalidate my hypothesis as [a] cause for the VERY real problem within UK Labour.

    edit - more power/oppression fun:
    https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2019/...nds-of-israel/
    The internal Labour report is the one either you or Pan previously referenced, I'm just relaying its conclusion. On the other hand, the Institute for Jewish Policy Research study (linked in previous post) of British antisemitism indicates that among left-identifying individuals anti-Semitism is at worst of equivalent grade to that within broader society, at best lesser than that seen among right-identifying individuals. If you believe that contemporary Labour is anti-Semitic, then what is your concept of how this manifests? Is your position that the current Labour leadership is markedly more anti-Semitic than the general party membership, and that Labour defenders are more ideologically-committed to their position vis-a-vis the evidence on the subject than Labour detractors are? The evidence I have seen is not strong enough to accept such an interpretation (and therefore trying to rationalize it ex ante from some stereotypical concept of power relations among the Left is premature, besides being wrong for its own sake).

    I appreciate your linked article speculating on the Labour defectors conflating anti-Israel with anti-Semitic in establishing their political commitments, but in the end it would take me too much time to figure out who's right or wrong on this single point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    No, it's not, I just don't see how this "new post-brexit world" extends beyond Britain itself for now. Maybe it's hubris to assume that Britain leaving the EU will have very strong effects beyond Britain. I'm not saying we won't be affected at all, but probably not as strongly as Britain itself. It might be quite telling that all your examples are about Britain. I don't see Brexit leading to the end of the German healthcare system or even the EU as I said earlier. What some here do see though, is more business contracts that aren't given to UK companies anymore... In that sense your point is quite valid, yes.

    What's funny in this regard, is that the Brexit campaign promised more NHS funding and now you say the end of the NHS is now a possibility.
    Global terms, the collapse of traditional consensus and the feeling that the field of possibilities has opened up for any and all revisionism. Brexit is just one manifestation, but no one is immune.
    Vitiate Man.

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  2. #32
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: A change in British politics... or a blip?

    alas, i am not a labour insider/activist/supporter/voter, so I find myself far removed from the truth of the matter.

    i have the outsider's perspective of watching labour insiders give uncritical support to Palestine and unsympathetic criticism of Israel, watchings news reports of internal investigations of antisemitism, and seeing jewish labour MP's have a generally miserable life from labour Momemtum activists.

    maybe Pannonian can give us a deeper view, (though both Beskar and Pan have already produced plausible responses). Mine merely acts as a possible root explanation for the behaviour they describe.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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  3. #33
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: A change in British politics... or a blip?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Global terms, the collapse of traditional consensus and the feeling that the field of possibilities has opened up for any and all revisionism. Brexit is just one manifestation, but no one is immune.
    Do you just want to rub in that I based my answer on a misinterpretation?

    I meant that you can't tell anyone in specific has actually been infected until they begin to cough, but that was because I confused this with the exit negotiations topic and thought Furinculus was specifically talking about the EU going down. Which was a mistake. See, now you made me live through it again. Happy now?!?


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

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  4. #34
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: A change in British politics... or a blip?

    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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