Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 74

Thread: Christchurch massacre

  1. #1
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Alpine Subtundra
    Posts
    747

    Default Christchurch massacre

    I am sure we all know the details of the terrorist attack by now. To give a very brief summary, a young Australian citizen entered two mosques in the town of Christchurch in New Zealand, killing at least 50 people and wounding many others. After half an hour, he was arrested by the authorities, which suspect that he acted alone. Presumably, he chose New Zealand, as the security there is less advanced than in Australia, due to the latter's experience with the Port Arthur massacre.

    His motives are pretty clear, according to his published manifesto: He focuses a lot on the conspiracy theory of White Genocide and the hysteria of white Europeans being replaced by brown barbarians. The document is the epitome of alt-right trolling and Internet memes, as he's self-described as a "kebab-remover" and spammed the Navy Seal copy-pasta. I believe he was active in the notorious community of 4chan and he even called his rambling an "effortpost" and not a "shitpost". He idolised his fellow mosque-shooter of Canada and pretended to act in the defense of the Rotherham victims. Even one of the rifles he used is full of weird graffiti.

    "Turkofagos" for example means Turkish-eater in Greek and was used as an epithet to describe the vanquisher of the Turks. The perpetrator obviously copied it from obscure Islamophobic sites, who fetishize Vienna, the Crusades and Lepanto. Internet slang and stupid memes aside, I think it's time to give some attention to the radicalisation provoked by edgy communities, who turn idiots with a bad sense of humour into murderous psychopaths. Perhaps the /pol/ should be monitored as closely as the various jihadist websites recruiting disenfranchised youths for daesh.

    The incident was of course internationally criticized, although many far-right clowns secretly sympathize with the perpetrator and justify his killing-spree as a necessary response to the modern "cosmopolitan dystopia". An Australian Senator not only excused the murderer but also called his actions as a show of "vigilantism". I wonder how he will perform in the next elections.

    I personally wish rest in peace to the victims and my sincere condolences to their families, while I hope that the town of Christchurch and the society of New Zealand will manage to overcome this terrible tragedy.

  2. #2
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,616

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    I think it was 8chan, not 4chan. Apparently 8chan is the even less moderated bastard child of 4chan, where racists like to meet since they're not welcome on 4chan.

    The massacre is absolutely disgusting, I'm not going to read his manifesto or watch his video though because that's just what the pervert wants. It's especially rich to talk about replacing the white man in Australia, the continent where the white man threw the original inhabitants off the cliffs to replace them...

    Idiocy really seems to be on the rise again everywhere, I hope that this trend stops at some point, preferably before we have destroyed the planet.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  3. #3
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,005

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    I believe 8Chan and 4Chan ARE monitored quite closely (so is Reddit) but you can't catch everyone.

    I saw this about that Senator today: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...hould-charged/

    Someone cracked a raw egg on his head whilst filming it for teh loz. The Senator punched him in the face. I feel like both parties deserved what they got in that exchange.

    With Regards to the massacre itself - what to say? It's obviously terrible, but also cunningly well executed. He managed to get his video out there and you can't stop it; he managed to survive his attack and have his day in court, and he reckons he'll be out in 20 years and haled as a "hero" once all the Sheeple wake up.

    He also said he was inspired by Brevik - and we're doing it again, feeding the murderous troll all the publicity he craves. This guy basically wrote a manual for how to shoot up a Mosque and get away with it. He's not even going to have a hard time inside probably, he'll just gang up with the other racists/
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  4. #4
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    6,987

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    I've seen it cited in numerous places that Anning won just 19 votes in the election that got him his seat. What was the size of the electorate?

  5. #5
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    6,987

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I've seen it cited in numerous places that Anning won just 19 votes in the election that got him his seat. What was the size of the electorate?
    Answer: 2.7 million. 2.7 million Queenslanders voted in the last elections, 19 of whom put down Fraser Anning as a first choice. And due to various shenanigans, that was enough to get him a place in the Australian senate.

  6. #6
    Member Member Tuuvi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    The wild west
    Posts
    1,395

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    I believe 8Chan and 4Chan ARE monitored quite closely (so is Reddit) but you can't catch everyone.
    4Chan has a board called /pol/, short for "politically incorrect", which is a designated nazi safe space. Reddit leaves moderation up to individual subreddits and has left boards like The_Donald alone, which allows racism as long as it's thinly veiled by dogwhistles and the like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    I saw this about that Senator today: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...hould-charged/

    Someone cracked a raw egg on his head whilst filming it for teh loz. The Senator punched him in the face. I feel like both parties deserved what they got in that exchange.
    Free speech absolutism and civility fetishism are what allowed racist, far right ideas to fester and inspire attacks like the one in Christchurch. Racists like Senator Anning need to be mocked, shamed, humiliated, and shut down so they will be too afraid of the social consequences to air their vile views in public.

    If we want to live in a society where bigotry is taboo then we have to do the work to make it taboo. If our response to racism is to shrug our shoulders and think, "well, he's a terrible person but he's entitled to his opinion" then the white nationalists will find it easier to spread their beliefs and gain converts to their movement, which will inspire more and more attacks on Muslims, immigrants and other minorities in the future. If the white nationalists manage to gain mainstream acceptance or capture state power then we could have a full-scale genocide on our hands.

    Besides all that, eggs are harmless and I don't think punching a kid in the face, tackling him to the ground and putting him in a chokehold is an appropriate response to having one smashed on your head.
    Last edited by Tuuvi; 03-17-2019 at 17:49.

  7. #7
    Member Member Tuuvi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    The wild west
    Posts
    1,395

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    double post
    Last edited by Tuuvi; 03-17-2019 at 17:44.

  8. #8
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,005

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuvi View Post
    4Chan has a board called /pol/, short for "politically incorrect", which is a designated nazi safe space. Reddit leaves moderation up to individual subreddits and has left boards like The_Donald alone, which allows racism as long as it's thinly veiled by dogwhistles and the like.
    No, they're monitored by Law Enforcement.

    All your racists in one convenient place, see.

    Free speech absolutism and civility fetishism are what allowed racist, far right ideas to fester and inspire attacks like the one in Christchurch. Racists like Senator Anning need to be mocked, shamed, humiliated, and shut down so they will be too afraid of the social consequences to air their vile views in public.

    If we want to live in a society where bigotry is taboo then we have to do the work to make it taboo. If our response to racism is to shrug our shoulders and think, "well, he's a terrible person but he's entitled to his opinion" then the white nationalists will find it easier to spread their beliefs and gain converts to their movement, which will inspire more and more attacks on Muslims, immigrants and other minorities in the future. If the white nationalists manage to gain mainstream acceptance or capture state power then we could have a full-scale genocide on our hands.

    Besides all that, eggs are harmless and I don't think punching a kid in the face, tackling him to the ground and putting him in a chokehold is an appropriate response to having one smashed on your head.
    Suppression of Far-Right ideas is what allows them to fester. In this case egging the Senator is likely to engender sympathy if not admiration for his response. He hit him, the kid then threw a pathetic counter so he hit him again, then his aides dragged him away. The same thing happened to John Prescott some years ago:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UhME8dcOqc

    In this case the kid looks particularly pathetic for trying to film it on his phone.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    Member thankful for this post:



  9. #9
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    I live on the org, feeding off of what few thanks are tossed at my posts. It is up to you to make sure I don't starve.
    Posts
    8,363
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    In this case the kid looks particularly pathetic for trying to film it on his phone.
    Nah, the politician looks pathetic for hitting a kid.

    This is what happens when a politician who is comfortable with the people he represents gets egged:


    "this is all just part of, you know, the free speech. [...] that's why I love this country, you have to take the whole package when you love something..."

    Alt-right going to go straight for the violent solution every time...
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

    Members thankful for this post (3):



  10. #10
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,458

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuvi View Post
    Besides all that, eggs are harmless and I don't think punching a kid in the face, tackling him to the ground and putting him in a chokehold is an appropriate response to having one smashed on your head.
    All he received from the person in question is a slap.

    Tackling him to the ground and putting him in a chokehold looks to be the response of the security.

    Let it be noted right now that if someone did that to me I would feel completely justified in slapping them, tackling them to the ground, AND putting them in a chokehold.

    I think he was quite restrained, all told.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  11. #11
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    I live on the org, feeding off of what few thanks are tossed at my posts. It is up to you to make sure I don't starve.
    Posts
    8,363
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    All he received from the person in question is a slap.

    Tackling him to the ground and putting him in a chokehold looks to be the response of the security.

    Let it be noted right now that if someone did that to me I would feel completely justified in slapping them, tackling them to the ground, AND putting them in a chokehold.

    I think he was quite restrained, all told.
    How do you justify an escalation of violence? This is like saying you are justified in shooting at kids trespassing on your property. The response must be proportional to the threat.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  12. #12
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,005

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    How do you justify an escalation of violence? This is like saying you are justified in shooting at kids trespassing on your property. The response must be proportional to the threat.
    Most people would probably punch the kid.

    Hitting someone who assaults you is a fairly natural response. Picking up a weapon and attacking them is the escalation.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  13. #13
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,458

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    How do you justify an escalation of violence? This is like saying you are justified in shooting at kids trespassing on your property. The response must be proportional to the threat.
    not my problem. a situation not caused by me, not invited by me, not wanted or expected by me.

    if someone is rude enough to assault me then they get to live with the consequences, which is whatever I deem to be a proportionate response.

    none of response listed above is aiming to do anything more than suppress further response, it's not like anyone started giving him a thorough shoeing while he was down on the floor.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 03-18-2019 at 07:47.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  14. #14
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,239

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Thoughts and prayers to those shot. Since of course like almost everyone I'm not going to do anything else.

    Humans pretend that we can after billions (or if you're American, thousands) of years of evolution / intelligent design where violence and winning at all costs was the only rule we can pretend we are all lovely and all would get on well if only we knew each other better since we are all deep down such wonderful people.

    Frankly, I am surprised how few events occur around the world. We have increased movement of people and ideas which creates a situation where the nucleating of poisonous thoughts to views to action is all too easy. In the West we have a somewhat schizophrenic approach to law enforcement and stating we are all the same and then mention different communities in the next breath which makes it easier for proper fringes to hide behind the freedoms that we say we want.

    So - thoughts and prayers.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  15. #15
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,344

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    I'm not sure if I agree wth the "don't feed the troll" mentality. His stuff is out there and easily searchable. To not address it head on allows it fester and spread. There is a reason he cast such a wide net with all the memes. This a far right, white supremacist attack and needs to be pursued as such. I've seen a lot of "this crazy guy" takes but thats not really what this is. There is an ideology behind it.
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 03-18-2019 at 12:49.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  16. #16
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    10,899

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Most, like me, will not read it and will shake our heads in sadness that this kind of stupidity keeps regenerating itself.

    Some will read it, intrigued but appalled, and then shake their heads in sadness.

    Some very few will read it and find comfort, validation, and purpose. This was his target audience. Some of those will seek to emulate his fame and "success."

    Sadly, this is a cost associated with free speech. For all the universe of good that it does and can do to promote human freedom, it can also be used as a tool for hatred and bigotry. Communication is a process all humans engage in, with varying degrees of skill. Sadly, a skilled communicator is not always thoughtful, smart, ethical, or empathetic.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

    Members thankful for this post (2):



  17. #17
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,344

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Most, like me, will not read it and will shake our heads in sadness that this kind of stupidity keeps regenerating itself.

    Some will read it, intrigued but appalled, and then shake their heads in sadness.

    Some very few will read it and find comfort, validation, and purpose. This was his target audience. Some of those will seek to emulate his fame and "success."

    Sadly, this is a cost associated with free speech. For all the universe of good that it does and can do to promote human freedom, it can also be used as a tool for hatred and bigotry. Communication is a process all humans engage in, with varying degrees of skill. Sadly, a skilled communicator is not always thoughtful, smart, ethical, or empathetic.
    I have to disagree. This can not be passed off as some crazy fringe individual. This can not be considered the proverbial price of speech. People were gunned down in cold blood.

    We don't treat any other kinds of terror this way. There is no reason to make an exception here. To hand wave this is to ignore a growing tide of hate.
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 03-18-2019 at 20:33.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

    Member thankful for this post:



  18. #18

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Thoughts and prayers to those shot. Since of course like almost everyone I'm not going to do anything else.

    Humans pretend that we can after billions (or if you're American, thousands) of years of evolution / intelligent design where violence and winning at all costs was the only rule we can pretend we are all lovely and all would get on well if only we knew each other better since we are all deep down such wonderful people.

    Frankly, I am surprised how few events occur around the world. We have increased movement of people and ideas which creates a situation where the nucleating of poisonous thoughts to views to action is all too easy. In the West we have a somewhat schizophrenic approach to law enforcement and stating we are all the same and then mention different communities in the next breath which makes it easier for proper fringes to hide behind the freedoms that we say we want.

    So - thoughts and prayers.

    You are looking in the wrong place, at future possibilities and not present realities.

    All extant political philosophies must recognize the basic truth that dispossessed the Angel of History: every single hegemonic political system ever has failed and collapsed.

    For 3 generations, the failure of integrated national states to spring forth from decolonial territorializations in Africa and the Islamic world - and the antique, as far as modernity goes, struggles of the Latin American and Asian states - has been misinterpreted. 'Oh, they're so primitive, so corrupt, so unsophisticated and underdeveloped', most derided. 'Manifest is the natural incapacity of the dark races; we are but innocent strangers', the Right rumbled. 'Exploited under the yoke of oppressive economy and perpetuated legacy', the Left moaned. The reality they submerged transcends them all. The European and European-colonial states, nation-states and national-states, that effervesced into modernity owe so much to their history that they have neglected, and had they not neglected it we would have immediately understood from the outset that the white man cannot redeem his humanity beyond that of the brown, that the human exertions of the "developing world" mark and marked out a warning, a blazing alarm. We were too arrogant and complacent to heed it.

    That warning: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. "Numbered, numbered, weighed, divided." Apocalypse.



    *eyes roll back down from skull*


    So, Egg-boy, huh?

    The difference in Left and Right mindsets on display ITT??!

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I have a compromise. The boy gets put in a chokehold, the goon doing the chokehold gets some wall therapy.

    Anyway, the Australian PM is pro-egg-boy, and egg-boy wants his Go Fund Me proceeds donated to the shooting victims.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 03-18-2019 at 22:09.
    Vitiate Man.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  19. #19
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    10,899

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    I have to disagree. This can not be passed off as some crazy fringe individual. This can not be considered the proverbial price of speech. People were gunned down in cold blood.

    We don't treat any other kinds of terror this way. There is no reason to make an exception here. To hand wave this is to ignore a growing tide of hate.
    Soma everyone and make irrational hate a thing of the past? Imprison all of those whose ideologies are abhorrent to us? Confiscate all firearms of any kind? I've gone on record here before to note that racism and white supremacy is stupid and flies contrary to any discernible fact. I don't know of a practical way to outlaw stupidity.

    Short of a 'Big Brother' -esque police state, how could you truly deter such deplorable things as this massacre. And I am talking practicality here, not desirability. I am certain all of us on this site would love to see such events vanish from the human experience.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

    Member thankful for this post:



  20. #20
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,344

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Soma everyone and make irrational hate a thing of the past? Imprison all of those whose ideologies are abhorrent to us? Confiscate all firearms of any kind? I've gone on record here before to note that racism and white supremacy is stupid and flies contrary to any discernible fact. I don't know of a practical way to outlaw stupidity.

    Short of a 'Big Brother' -esque police state, how could you truly deter such deplorable things as this massacre. And I am talking practicality here, not desirability. I am certain all of us on this site would love to see such events vanish from the human experience.
    To not address the root cause allows this to fester and allows Montys pessimism to start becoming realism.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  21. #21
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,005

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    To not address the root cause allows this to fester and allows Montys pessimism to start becoming realism.
    That would be a basic breakdown in Democracy - and also a failure to recognise that what we now classify as "extremism" used to be government policy somewhere​.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  22. #22
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,344

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    That would be a basic breakdown in Democracy - and also a failure to recognise that what we now classify as "extremism" used to be government policy somewhere​.
    I'm not sure I follow. I'm not advocating for any sort of draconian laws. What policy?
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  23. #23
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,005

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    I'm not sure I follow. I'm not advocating for any sort of draconian laws. What policy?
    "Segregate all the Blacks"

    "Disenfranchise all the Christians"

    "Drive out the Jews".

    These are extremist views now, they have been at one time or another (more than once) official government policy somewhere, some time.

    So, to see the views of racists and other bigots as somehow inherently abhorrent to human behaviour is clearly wrong, because these traits are innate to human behaviour.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  24. #24

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    That would be a basic breakdown in Democracy - and also a failure to recognise that what we now classify as "extremism" used to be government policy somewhere​.
    This is a very important point about "extremism". For example, in Nazi Germany harboring Jewish refugees and promoting jazz music would have been extremism. In the Soviet Union, having reservations about the Party was extremism, to the point it was sometimes treated as pathology.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 03-19-2019 at 21:12.
    Vitiate Man.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  25. #25
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,344

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    "Segregate all the Blacks"

    "Disenfranchise all the Christians"

    "Drive out the Jews".

    These are extremist views now, they have been at one time or another (more than once) official government policy somewhere, some time.

    So, to see the views of racists and other bigots as somehow inherently abhorrent to human behaviour is clearly wrong, because these traits are innate to human behaviour.
    I mean this kind of thing has the real possibility of undercutting the social fabric. It's not really the point if it's innate or not. Things are like that and sometimes people is not particularly good policy.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  26. #26
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,005

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    I mean this kind of thing has the real possibility of undercutting the social fabric. It's not really the point if it's innate or not. Things are like that and sometimes people is not particularly good policy.
    The point is that the social fabric is already rather thin. About the only thing most people can agree on these days is not killing each other and in America even that's not a given.

    No shared culture, no shared religion... Some countries like the UK have a monarch to rally behind but that's an inconsistent glue at best.

    Basically, our lack of extremism makes us vulnerable to extremism. Kinda "virtue is a double-sided sword" situation.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  27. #27
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    15,616

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Soma everyone and make irrational hate a thing of the past? Imprison all of those whose ideologies are abhorrent to us? Confiscate all firearms of any kind? I've gone on record here before to note that racism and white supremacy is stupid and flies contrary to any discernible fact. I don't know of a practical way to outlaw stupidity.

    Short of a 'Big Brother' -esque police state, how could you truly deter such deplorable things as this massacre. And I am talking practicality here, not desirability. I am certain all of us on this site would love to see such events vanish from the human experience.
    Education and enlightenment? It's easy to say that some people are just dumb while you call for tax cuts, slash school budgets and give preference to private schools that many can't afford. Yes, some argue that the humanities degrees are useless, but how many humanities students have massacred >20 people so far?


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  28. #28

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    I mean this kind of thing has the real possibility of undercutting the social fabric. It's not really the point if it's innate or not. Things are like that and sometimes people is not particularly good policy.
    Lecture on the normalcy of disequilibrium and the rupture of safety (1940, colorized):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    "What is today but tomorrow's yesterday?"


    Tangentially, I saw a fascist make a scary but true point: The vast majority of people living in the Western hemisphere are governed under an ideology and system of white supremacy. In response to the massacre and the Trump-Bolsonaro meeting. Indeed, think of counter-examples: Bolivia? Venezuela and Cuba, at least in theory. Haiti, I guess.


    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    A what?
    ?

    Reply to the rest of the other post if you please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Education and enlightenment? It's easy to say that some people are just dumb while you call for tax cuts, slash school budgets and give preference to private schools that many can't afford. Yes, some argue that the humanities degrees are useless, but how many humanities students have massacred >20 people so far?
    It's not too late for PVC if the EU gets its army.
    Vitiate Man.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  29. #29
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Between Louis' sheets
    Posts
    10,344

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    The point is that the social fabric is already rather thin. About the only thing most people can agree on these days is not killing each other and in America even that's not a given.

    No shared culture, no shared religion... Some countries like the UK have a monarch to rally behind but that's an inconsistent glue at best.

    Basically, our lack of extremism makes us vulnerable to extremism. Kinda "virtue is a double-sided sword" situation.
    So, que sera sera? Let the chips fall where they may? Time to take a bow? Unable or unwilling to change?
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 03-20-2019 at 03:13.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  30. #30
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,005

    Default Re: Christchurch massacre

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Reply to the rest of the other post if you please.
    I do not understand.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO