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Thread: Transsexual Toilet Trouble

  1. #31
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    But please, tell this young lady her gender-identity is an artificial construct.
    Want to know what else is a social/artificial construct? Your national identity. Doesn't stop people getting upset when you point that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Remember, this started because Beskar intimated that the reason a union activist lost his job was not because of Brexit but because of his view on transgender use of bathrooms.
    I never intimated this. Though I indicated disdain for the 'male sexual predator in a dress around every corner' argument on this topic.

    Frankly, given Beskar's own lack of sophistication I find this deeply ironic.
    When you accuse me of lack of sophistication, it is a compliment.

    It is rather simple and easy to understand where my arguments come from. I am from the belief in constructing a positive future, eliminating divisions and creating a utopia not so dissimilar to the United Federation of Planets. I believe in a fair open society where people are not discriminated against based on arbitrary prejudice. I want a better future for all.

    Speaking of Sci-Fi and the breaking down of barriers. A famous scene which offends your sensibilities is the Shower Scene from Starship Troopers (unable to post for obvious reasons). On the other-hand, I am completely fine with it.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I also imagine on the discussion on breast feeding, you will talk about breast-feeding orthodoxy when I am accepting and for the practice of mothers feeding their babies in public areas opposed to shoo-ing them into smelly toilets to do it in private.

    I suppose you also enforce current law which bars humanist celebrants from conducting marriages for non-religious people. Because you know, non-religious people do want to marry outside a registrar's office just like religious people's freedoms.

    You just like to pop up and oppose everything. Where we actually do agree, you go out of your way to say we are vehemently opposed.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Have one thing with unisex cubicles and another with unisex urinals.
    I am sure I have read somewhere about a school who had unisex bathroom facilities. The cubicles are fully enclosed, and the public area around the sink has CCTV. There is also a teacher stationed nearby and there is reportedly no issues at all.

    Unisex bathrooms can be easily done with no threat of sexual predation.
    Last edited by Beskar; 07-10-2019 at 00:05.
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  2. #32
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    and not make the enterprises happy.
    You can legalize enslavement and remove all regulations regarding worker welfare and pollution, and throw billions at them in subsidies, and the only thing that the heads of those enterprises will consider in terms of improvement is the type of jewels they will use to stud their superyachts.

    This is a gross overgeneralization. The fact remains is that enterprises can either learn to deal with human rights like rational human beings by trusting people to not all be subhuman rapists just because they are different, build/convert to unisex facilities to weasel out of the argument (perfectly acceptable), or move to a more enlightened place that fits their ideology like the PRC or Saudi Arabia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    I've encountered both and the latter are, frankly, quite bizarre in their bearing - the trans-women who fall into that category are really a terrible parody of womanhood.
    Do you feel the same way about cismen who grow out neckbeards and talk about eating bacon all day and ciswomen who claim to be physically incapable of opening a door by themselves?
    Last edited by CrossLOPER; 07-09-2019 at 22:59.
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  3. #33
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    Do you feel the same way about cismen who grow out neckbeards and talk about eating bacon all day and ciswomen who claim to be physically incapable of opening a door by themselves?
    You needed to lean harder into the comparison - the men need to be eating meatbread, not bacon, and they need to complain about Bree Larson all day. The women need to use their womanhood as an excuse to never take any responsibility for anything in life.

    Then, sure, I feel the same way.

    I'm thinking of trans-women who wear ill-fitting clothes that are too revealing, wear six inch heels, have two inch press-on nails and wear hot pink wigs. The fact they're trans really isn't really the issue, it's that they're terrible examples of womanhood - like a parody of what a man thinks a woman should look like to be "hot".
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  4. #34
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Want to know what else is a social/artificial construct? Your national identity. Doesn't stop people getting upset when you point that out.
    From your response I get the impression you don't know who this is.

    I never intimated this. Though I indicated disdain for the 'male sexual predator in a dress around every corner' argument on this topic.
    So you DO think he was fired over his Brexit stance?

    When you accuse me of lack of sophistication, it is a compliment.
    I was meant as an insult, but Banquo and Kukri taught us to play the ball, not the man, so I apolagise.

    My point, however, is that you seem only willing or able to see things from your own perspective - you resist seeing things from the perspective of others, this prevents you from understanding their position - which is why your attacks often miss. This is especially true in my case.

    It is rather simple and easy to understand where my arguments come from. I am from the belief in constructing a positive future, eliminating divisions and creating a utopia not so dissimilar to the United Federation of Planets. I believe in a fair open society where people are not discriminated against based on arbitrary prejudice. I want a better future for all.
    Utopia is a place that doesn't exist as described by a liar to a moron. That was Thomas Moore's point - there is no perfect society.

    As for the UFP - it tended to strangle individuality and creativity - something Deep Space Nine explored at length.

    Speaking of Sci-Fi and the breaking down of barriers. A famous scene which offends your sensibilities is the Shower Scene from Starship Troopers (unable to post for obvious reasons). On the other-hand, I am completely fine with it.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    This scene does not offend my sensibilities in any way - you have incorrectly assumed that my argument comes from a visceral distaste, possibly of trans-gender women. I would have thought I explained this by comparison to my support for the ban on most firearms despite my love of shooting.

    I also imagine on the discussion on breast feeding, you will talk about breast-feeding orthodoxy when I am accepting and for the practice of mothers feeding their babies in public areas opposed to shoo-ing them into smelly toilets to do it in private.
    I have no problem with women breastfeeding in public. However, our society frowns on public nudity and for that reason, and to avoid exciting the undue interest of teenage boys, I really think they should use a shawl - but apparently that makes me a monster for expecting women who are breastfeeding to only be as modest as women who aren't.

    I suppose you also enforce current law which bars humanist celebrants from conducting marriages for non-religious people. Because you know, non-religious people do want to marry outside a registrar's office just like religious people's freedoms.
    Sorry, what?

    Humanism is not a religion, looking at the website makes it very clear that the wedding has no set form, how then is it to be recognised as legally valid?

    It should be entirely possible for a Humanist to register to conduct weddings and hold the wedding in a registered venue, then it would be valid. I struggle to understand why this is a problem, given that Humanism, or rather Secular Humanism, is not a religion and has no governing beliefs.

    https://humanism.org.uk/ceremonies/n...dings/faqs/#25

    It seems the main complaint of Humanists is that they want to be able to marry anywhere - which is not a right extended to any religious group - even Jewish people must marry in either the Synagogue or their own home.

    I'm sorry, I really fail to see the great injustice here. If I want to have a CofE wedding I can't have it on a mountainside, either.

    You just like to pop up and oppose everything. Where we actually do agree, you go out of your way to say we are vehemently opposed.
    This just sounds bitter and petty and it makes me think that:

    A: You aren't engaging in debate in good faith.

    B: You aren't even trying to read me in good faith.

    I am sure I have read somewhere about a school who had unisex bathroom facilities. The cubicles are fully enclosed, and the public area around the sink has CCTV. There is also a teacher stationed nearby and there is reportedly no issues at all.

    Unisex bathrooms can be easily done with no threat of sexual predation.
    Hiring someone to attend the bathroom and installing CCTV are not "easy" - nor am I entirely happy about CCTV in public bathrooms - first over the sink - then in the cubicle.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  5. #35

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    I haven't argued for or against any particular policy in this thread. I think the only solution that will make everyone reasonably happy is to include one or more unisex toilets in addition to the usual gender-segregated ones, but that will often take more space and cost more money, and not make the enterprises happy.
    I think PVC's sentiments have mostly been properly addressed, and though I'll do so again tomorrow I'd just like to emphasize here that the bare minimum the transgender demographic is asking for is radically simple: just do nothing.

    This was almost revelatory once I grokked it, but most of what they want will be realized under the condition that the state stops attempting to actively enforce discriminatory policies or practices (most concretely in terms of police enforcement, because that's the core element of state coercion). Just plain inaction. This puts opponents of transgender claims in the awkward position of advocating an affirmative course of action in the face of mere laissez faire, whereas with gay marriage (as distinct from gay rights more broadly) at least there was an affirmative demand for new legislation on the part of gay activists.
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  6. #36
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I think PVC's sentiments have mostly been properly addressed, and though I'll do so again tomorrow I'd just like to emphasize here that the bare minimum the transgender demographic is asking for is radically simple: just do nothing.

    This was almost revelatory once I grokked it, but most of what they want will be realized under the condition that the state stops attempting to actively enforce discriminatory policies or practices (most concretely in terms of police enforcement, because that's the core element of state coercion). Just plain inaction. This puts opponents of transgender claims in the awkward position of advocating an affirmative course of action in the face of mere laissez faire, whereas with gay marriage (as distinct from gay rights more broadly) at least there was an affirmative demand for new legislation on the part of gay activists.
    Just to add another wrinkle to this - a British medic is currently suing the Department of Work and Pensions for what he claims is religious discrimination after being "allowed" to exit his contract for refusing to address "a six-foot-tall bearded man" as "madam".

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ndation-widget

    Now, yes, he's that kind of Christian who believes are transgender people are sinful but the case does raise an important point.

    We, as a society, now tend to treat all cases of gender dis-morphia as transgenderism rather than as a psychological disorder. This is a very new idea, relatively speaking, and it is perhaps not entirely wise. The majority of children who display gender dis-morphia historically resolved their issues during puberty, but now we put teenagers on puberty-blocking drugs which can have harmful side effects and prevent them going through the process that might cause their condition to naturally resolve itself.

    Of course, we're now discouraged from even seeing is as a "condition".
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  7. #37
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    The fact they're trans really isn't really the issue.
    You are back-peddling so hard, you are going to forget how to use fire.
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  8. #38
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    From your response I get the impression you don't know who this is.
    To be honest, I have absolutely no idea where you are going with it.
    I don't see how Doe v. Regional School Unit 26, her TED Talks, (I got the love the related-to-topic jib of "Don't worry, I am not here to raid your bathrooms and take your women") has anything to do with anything against anything I said.

    Utopia is a place that doesn't exist as described by a liar to a moron. That was Thomas Moore's point - there is no perfect society.
    Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence. - Vince Lombardi

    It is about making the best with what we have. It is about making progress.

    This scene does not offend my sensibilities in any way - you have incorrectly assumed that my argument comes from a visceral distaste, possibly of trans-gender women. I would have thought I explained this by comparison to my support for the ban on most firearms despite my love of shooting.
    Actually, the scene doesn't involve any trans-gender individuals. It is simply a unisex washing facility.
    Which you do oppose by your explained comparison to support a ban on firearms despite your love of shooting.

    I have no problem with women breastfeeding in public. However, our society frowns on public nudity and for that reason, and to avoid exciting the undue interest of teenage boys, I really think they should use a shawl - but apparently that makes me a monster for expecting women who are breastfeeding to only be as modest as women who aren't.
    Or we can just recognise that some elements of our society are unnecessarily sexualised.
    There are many cultures who don't bat an eye-lid at a breast feeding woman. It is simply natural and not objectified in the slightest.
    American society also has the strange taboo of wanton violence being shown is okay, but a nipple? Hell no. It is a simple case of being a society of prudes.

    Then again, I see also men and women naked regularly as par of my work and I have never had such thoughts. I very much doubt I am a ubermensch to do this.

    Humanism Stuff
    Was a random based on this. Scotland has it better.

    This just sounds bitter and petty and it makes me think that:
    A: You aren't engaging in debate in good faith.
    B: You aren't even trying to read me in good faith.
    That is just flipping what I just said.
    Though on reflection, I probably have unfairly written-off any hope of it being different based on your stubborn refusal to engage with multiple attempts at reconciliation over the years.

    Random example: You once stated that the downside of Brexit is being the loss of development funding from the EU in Devon. I stated in response, that government should decentralise more of their funding from London to compensate, minimising this effect in Devon, also suggesting other areas as us northerners feel this pinch too. I thought we would have agreed, shared common interest... ... then you bizarrely claimed that if I suggested this in a Devon pub, the locals won't let me leave without black eyes.

    Hiring someone to attend the bathroom and installing CCTV are not "easy" - nor am I entirely happy about CCTV in public bathrooms - first over the sink - then in the cubicle.
    Firstly, it is completely self-enclosed cubicles. There is no perversion by people trying to look in from the top or the bottom. That is one simple measure.
    You are also not entirely happy with your own slippery slope argument no one is advocating or supporting. I don't think Urolagnia is a big of a thing you think it is.
    Last edited by Beskar; 07-10-2019 at 23:43.
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  9. #39
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    You are back-peddling so hard, you are going to forget how to use fire.
    It's absolutely possible that I've failed to convey my point - it's also possible that you've miss-read me.

    Let's be clear, though, some people who claim to be transgender, especially "trans-gender women" I just don't buy. An incredibly blokish man doing doing an embarrassing, sexist, drag act - am I really expected to believe this is a "real" woman?

    I am not allowed to question this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    To be honest, I have absolutely no idea where you are going with it.
    I don't see how Doe v. Regional School Unit 26, her TED Talks, (I got the love the related-to-topic jib of "Don't worry, I am not here to raid your bathrooms and take your women") has anything to do with anything against anything I said.
    Your support for the Queer agenda undermines the Transgender agender. If gender is a choice then transgenderism isn't real.

    I really struggle to understand how you can fail to see that. Doe v. Regional School Unit 26 pretty much hinges on trangenderism not being a choice.

    Also - you forgot to mention she killed it in last year's season of Supergirl. I confess, I was amused she didn't come out as trangender on the show for several episodes - I'm sure that tweaked a few noses, especially given how cute she it.

    Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence. - Vince Lombardi
    Several people have tried Communism - you need to ask yourself why it doesn't work - it wasn't for lack of effort.

    It is about making the best with what we have. It is about making progress.
    Repression of Freedom of speach is not necessarily "progress".

    Actually, the scene doesn't involve any trans-gender individuals. It is simply a unisex washing facility.
    Which you do oppose by your explained comparison to support a ban on firearms despite your love of shooting.
    In general, yes, I think that unisex washing facilities - especially for non-adults - are a bad idea. They do not, however, offend my "sensibilities".

    Or we can just recognise that some elements of our society are unnecessarily sexualised.
    There are many cultures who don't bat an eye-lid at a breast feeding woman. It is simply natural and not objectified in the slightest.
    American society also has the strange taboo of wanton violence being shown is okay, but a nipple? Hell no. It is a simple case of being a society of prudes.
    Maybe - those societies also don't have minimum ages of consent for sexual activity, though.

    We are discussing our society, where both women and men are generally expected not to be topless - and women especially. The argument, "well, if you saw tits all the time you'd stop caring" is besides the point. Teenage boys spend all their spare time trying to see tits - that what made the Sun so popular and it's such a problem our government is currently trying to put it behind an ID wall.

    Then again, I see also men and women naked regularly as par of my work and I have never had such thoughts. I very much doubt I am a ubermensch to do this.
    You long ago ceased to be a teenage boy.

    It would be easier to have some respect for Humanists if they weren't so damn smug - reading that you'd think that ONLY a Humanist marriage was special, or meaningful.

    In any case, I'm biased because I consider Secular Humanism absurd.

    [qupte]That is just flipping what I just said.
    Though on reflection, I probably have unfairly written-off any hope of it being different based on your stubborn refusal to engage with multiple attempts at reconciliation over the years.

    As an example supporting my statement: You once stated that the downside of Brexit is being the loss of development funding from the EU in Devon. I stated in response, that government should decentralise more of their funding from London to compensate, minimising this effect in Devon, also suggesting other areas as us northerners feel this pinch too. I thought we would have agreed, shared common interest... ... then you bizarrely claimed that if I suggested this in a Devon pub, the locals won't let me leave without black eyes.[/quote]

    I have only a vague recollection of this, but I suspect what you did was conflate Cornwall and Devon - liable to earn a beating here. Dig up the thread and I'll give you a more nuanced explanation.

    In any case, I'm not from Devon - I was just born and raised here - and no, that's not a joke.

    Firstly, it is completely self-enclosed cubicles. There is no perversion by people trying to look in from the top or the bottom. That is one simple measure.
    You are also not entirely happy with your own slippery slope argument no one is advocating or supporting. I don't think Urolagnia is a big of a thing you think it is.
    You attach this to a specific fetish - I am talking about invasion of privacy (CCTV) and loss of safety (unisex facilities). We are already the most surveilled society outside China - the amount of CCTV we have isn't normal, it's pathological. At this point more CCTV is just bad.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  10. #40
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Your support for the Queer agenda undermines the Transgender agender. If gender is a choice then transgenderism isn't real.
    I never discussed choice into this argument.
    To quote: B: You aren't even trying to read me in good faith.

    Several people have tried Communism - you need to ask yourself why it doesn't work - it wasn't for lack of effort.
    I think my 84 on my 'Totalitarian Regimes of the 20th Century' module involved the answer to that question.
    Outside of the odd-meme-ing for being on the left. My political affiliation would probably be closer to Libertarian Socialism which opposes the adoption of an authoritarian apparatus.

    Repression of Freedom of speach is not necessarily "progress".
    Where have I advocated repression of freedom of speech? In any context that matters. Not including legitimate use of forum powers.
    To quote: A: You aren't engaging in debate in good faith. B: You aren't even trying to read me in good faith.

    How many times have you looked at your account infractions fuming about how I have repressed your speech? The answer is none, as I have never given you one.
    When or where have I repressed your freedom of speech?

    In regards to Fireman. You unfairly misrepresented my statements (again), look at the post at the very top. To even quote it for your convenience:
    His Brexit view wasn't much, but his views on transsexuals pretty much amounted to "I don't want male perverts near my daughter in the bathroom". Clearly hasn't heard of this meme campaign, might change his view on how dumb he sounded.

    Where or when did I advocate for repressing his speech?

    In general, yes, I think that unisex washing facilities - especially for non-adults - are a bad idea. They do not, however, offend my "sensibilities".
    Children are innocent. They don't see anything wrong until you tell them different. It is the adults which are the worst offenders.

    The argument, "well, if you saw tits all the time you'd stop caring" is besides the point. Teenage boys spend all their spare time trying to see tits - that what made the Sun so popular and it's such a problem our government is currently trying to put it behind an ID wall.
    As I said, society of prudes.

    In any case, I'm biased because I consider Secular Humanism absurd.
    I consider your viewpoint that I cannot be a good person or have a morality because I don't believe in god to be absurd. I would argue that my absurd is the more absurd than your absurd too!

    I have only a vague recollection of this, but I suspect what you did was conflate Cornwall and Devon - liable to earn a beating here. Dig up the thread and I'll give you a more nuanced explanation.
    tl;dr version: I said "Cornwall and Devon were part of the Union just like Northern Ireland is". With this I was intending to state that the population and physical locations should be treated fairly.(and yes, you are going to bring in 'B: You aren't even trying to read me in good faith.' no matter how I word this statement as you did back then.)

    You brought up the differences of Country, Duchy and County, with emphasis Cornish identity politics when it wasn't a discussion I was or attempting to engage, resulting me in calling you pedantic over wording when you refused to accept my explanation.

    In all honesty, I would be willing just to agree with "burying the hatchet" with you. I don't hate you, PFH nor do I care too, nor will I ever do(unless you reeeeeealllly went out of your way to deserve it). I know from your previous comments (well, it even has it's own thread) that this is not reciprocated.

    You attach this to a specific fetish - I am talking about invasion of privacy (CCTV) and loss of safety (unisex facilities). We are already the most surveilled society outside China - the amount of CCTV we have isn't normal, it's pathological. At this point more CCTV is just bad.
    I feel you may sometimes fail to recognise my dry humour or choose to ignore it. Not intended as a insult, merely an observation. I know you have confessed to difficulties to Husar's on occasions.
    Last edited by Beskar; 07-11-2019 at 01:31.
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  11. #41
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I never discussed choice into this argument.
    To quote: B: You aren't even trying to read me in good faith.


    I disagree - you said gender was artificial - that which is artificial is man-made, which implies man's intent and therefore choice.

    I said that I think you're confusing gender and the construction of gender-identity and you posted several wikipedia articles which reference one or the other - further indicating you conflate the two.

    So as we are clear - I do not believe gender is artificial or a matter of choice in the same way that sexually is not artificial or a matter of choice.

    I think my 84 on my 'Totalitarian Regimes of the 20th Century' module involved the answer to that question.
    Outside of the odd-meme-ing for being on the left. My political affiliation would probably be closer to Libertarian Socialism which opposes the adoption of an authoritarian apparatus.
    In another thread we've been having the argument over whether or not Imperialism is inherently evil. There I made the point that Imperialism is a form of expansionism and might therefore be considered evil or as least negative even if the subsequent imperial administration is largely benign.

    From my historical reading and observation of contemporary politics I have come to the conclusion that any nation larger than, say, Germany, tends to become coercive because in order to function the central government has to remain below a certain size lest it become unwieldy. From this it follows that elected representatives have unacceptably large constituencies and therefore become unacceptably remote from the people they are meant to represent.

    Your dream of the one-world government can, following this logic, never be anything better than a benign oligarchy like the EU, or a corrosive one as the US Congress has become.

    Where have I advocated repression of freedom of speech? In any context that matters. Not including legitimate use of forum powers.
    To quote: A: You aren't engaging in debate in good faith. B: You aren't even trying to read me in good faith.

    How many times have you looked at your account infractions fuming about how I have repressed your speech? The answer is none, as I have never given you one.
    When or where have I repressed your freedom of speech?
    You do not think modern Liberal Western governments are repressive?

    No guns, not allowed to say the majority of swear words because they offend someone, tried to censor "Fairy-tale in New York".

    Not that I necessarily disagree with banning homophobic or racial slurs, but it IS repression. Saying it isn't is rather like claiming Christianity isn't a cult.

    In regards to Fireman. You unfairly misrepresented my statements (again), look at the post at the very top. To even quote it for your convenience:
    His Brexit view wasn't much, but his views on transsexuals pretty much amounted to "I don't want male perverts near my daughter in the bathroom". Clearly hasn't heard of this meme campaign, might change his view on how dumb he sounded.


    Were you not responding to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dark-days-democracy-you-can-17388243


    Outrageous.
    IA expresses his outrage that the man was sacked over Brexit and you downplay his Brexit views and play up his supposedly trans-phobic views - views which most men would understand in view of their own daughters/sisters etc. From this I conclude you think he wasn't actually sacked over Brexit (as he claimed) but over his other views. Your disdain for those views further implies you approve of said sacking.

    IF this is not the case then you should have caveated your post.

    Where or when did I advocate for repressing his speech?
    I never said you did - I just said that the sort of society you envisage (one like the UFP) is repressive and stifles individual freedoms. You made that connection btw, not me, and I specifically referenced the fact they deal with this in D£9 - they deal with it in Voyager as well, but it wasn't done as well.

    Children are innocent. They don't see anything wrong until you tell them different. It is the adults which are the worst offenders.
    So, as a teenage boy you didn't spend a lot of your time looking at teenage girls? We used to call it "bird watching" at College, and we did it pretty much every free period. We were, at that time, still technically "children". Hardly something I'm proud of, but then children tend to have poorly developed empathy - which is why they are capable of such cruelty.

    As I said, society of prudes.
    Really? You're the one who claims not to spend his time looking at girls - isn't that more prudish?

    I consider your viewpoint that I cannot be a good person or have a morality because I don't believe in god to be absurd. I would argue that my absurd is the more absurd than your absurd too!
    I never said that you were necessarily unable to be a good person without believing in God, I said that it was impossible to be a good person "without God" because without a Divine arbiter there's no way for Good and Evil to be distinguished. That's a criticism of the incoherence of your worldview - not your personal morality. A system of Divine Justice does not require your personal belief in order to function.

    At this point I've spent about a decade and a half studying Christian and Pagan moralist texts - I'm not some ignorant "Evangelical Theologian".

    Oh, and before you even think of going there - I don't believe me believing in God MAKES me a Good person.

    I see a similar logical inconsistency in your insistence that gender is "artificial" whilst supporting trans-gender rights.

    tl;dr version: I said "Cornwall and Devon were part of the Union just like Northern Ireland is". With this I was intending to state that the population and physical locations should be treated fairly.(and yes, you are going to bring in 'B: You aren't even trying to read me in good faith.' no matter how I word this statement as you did back then.)

    You brought up the differences of Country, Duchy and County, with emphasis Cornish identity politics when it wasn't a discussion I was or attempting to engage, resulting me in calling you pedantic over wording when you refused to accept my explanation.
    Right, conflating Devon and Cornwall will get you two black eyes in a rural pub in both counties. The two sides can't even agree on how to have tea and scones, and when a National Trust property posted an advert in Cornwall with it the "wrong" way they received threats of boycott and even, irrc, violence, that caused them to issue an abject grovelling apology. Now, if you don't like me telling you that I'm sorry, but I see no reason to sugarcoat it - and I see no reason not to criticise you for trying to downplay regional differences which two regions consider essential to their identity.

    See - this is the gap between the world you think other people want and the world other people actually want, and it's why I find your dream so objectionable. You probably think the Cornish and Devonians should "get on" right? They don't want to though, and the only way they will is if you force them, either directly or by erasing their local identities.

    In all honesty, I would be willing just to agree with "burying the hatchet" with you. I don't hate you, PFH nor do I care too, nor will I ever do(unless you reeeeeealllly went out of your way to deserve it). I know from your previous comments (well, it even has it's own thread) that this is not reciprocated.
    Never read that thread, in case you were wondering, I didn't hang around to see what people said about me after - never read the last PM you sent me either. However, you may recall I said that I left specifically so I didn't end up hating you. I came back because my dislike of you caused me to miss the last year or so of Fragony's life. That's a sin for which I can never atone and therefore I shall have to carry to my grave - I have enough reasons to hate myself, so I'm trying not to add to the list.

    As far as "burying the hatchet" goes, I've found that rarely works and in any case you haven't changed in any way that would make such an exercise meaningful, and nor have I.

    I feel you may sometimes fail to recognise my dry humour or choose to ignore it. Not intended as a insult, merely an observation. I know you have confessed to difficulties to Husar's on occasions.
    Have you considered applying a smiley if the joke doesn't have an obvious punch line? In this case though, you're mocking me, which is something you should only do with someone you know has a good opinion of you and your character - especially when I made it quite clear what people are worried about is sexual assault and not peeping toms.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  12. #42
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    So as we are clear - I do not believe gender is artificial or a matter of choice in the same way that sexually is not artificial or a matter of choice.
    I similarly agree about gender and sexuality on that they are both similarly constructed but it is not a matter of "choice". It is a preference. Deciding to choose I don't want to dislike coffee doesn't stop me from having the utter disgust when I drink it.

    To me, a social construct =/= choice and it is a separate thing. It may be simply we disagree on that and leave it there.

    From my historical reading and observation of contemporary politics I have come to the conclusion that any nation larger than, say, Germany, tends to become coercive because in order to function the central government has to remain below a certain size lest it become unwieldy. From this it follows that elected representatives have unacceptably large constituencies and therefore become unacceptably remote from the people they are meant to represent.
    If you read the wikipedia on libertarian socialism, it is not a top-down construct. It is a horizontal one. The concept also has it's flaws and practicalities which impairs it from working. It works differently to both the EU and the USA.

    You do not think modern Liberal Western governments are repressive?
    Not that I necessarily disagree with banning homophobic or racial slurs, but it IS repression. Saying it isn't is rather like claiming Christianity isn't a cult.
    There is nothing fundamentally wrong with finding it difficult with certain concepts and examples. You linked an article about a GP calling a 6foot man with a beard "Ma'am". He was asking to simply follow the process/procedure as per his training. He wasn't asked to suddenly change his world view on the subject and there are tactful ways of going about things rather than outright refusal such as not using any gender pronounce and merely documenting that said person who identify self with a female gender.

    What is disallowed is enforcing beliefs which are detriment to someones care. I am not saying that the GP in question did this.

    Were you not responding to this:
    IA expresses his outrage that the man was sacked over Brexit and you downplay his Brexit views and play up his supposedly trans-phobic views - views which most men would understand in view of their own daughters/sisters etc. From this I conclude you think he wasn't actually sacked over Brexit (as he claimed) but over his other views. Your disdain for those views further implies you approve of said sacking
    You are right but not right. I was downplaying his Brexit views and I did not find them to be negatively. I fundamentally do not oppose Brexit at an irrational level. I simply disagree on a lot of issues surrounding Brexit. I want a second referendum based on clarification and purpose. Not as an excuse to stop Brexit which I have consistently tried to convey.

    Going further to suggest than this was incorrect. I wasn't suggesting he was removed due to transrights instead. He could have sadly been removed due to his views on Brexit which I believe was the thrust of the article. If anything I disagree with such a move.

    [will come back later.]
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  13. #43

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    In the UK we infringe upon the "Right to Bear Arms" enumerated in our Bill of Rights because a few people have used arms for terrible purposes.
    I'm still not sure what subject we're currently on, but a couple problems:

    1. This assumes that any attempt, or any means, to mitigate "small risk" is equally appropriate or salutary. To some extent deterrence is a component of any criminal justice system - yet we do not condone systematic torture toward deterrence basically because it's evil (and less saliently ineffective). Alternatively, men commit the lion's share (tee hee) of violent crimes. Would it be just to establish matriarchy and heavily subordinate men in the name of public safety?
    2. It is historically false to say that gendered bathrooms were introduced as a response to men assaulting women in shared spaces. Perhaps you made this assumption because you were applying your contemporary perspective to historical contexts.


    This argument started because Beskar implied that anyone with anxiety over the safety of his teenage daughter in allowing men into female bathrooms to accommodate transgender rights was morally bankrupt. I merely argued that this was not necessarily the case and now apparently I hate transgender people - I don't feel like I'm the one making the logical leap here.
    Maybe it's not necessarily the case. But is it not the case? Justification is warranted. An employer may genuinely be worried that Asian candidates are indolent thieves; what's the source of this worry, and is it changeable?



    We used to have men who owned guns and knives too - now we arrest them all and send them to prison before they even think of hurting anyone. We do this because we are not a liberal society- which is fine - but its inconsistent to be liberal in some areas and not others.
    You arrest on the basis of ownership, not on the basis of intention. And anyway, you neglect consideration of whether a particular law is reasonable or not. I'm confident you don't believe that literally any restriction is legitimate or desirable; thus the necessary recourse is to the facts of the matter.

    Sure you are, as you admit in the next clause. But every system has inconsistencies, are you really complaining that we haven't realized some utopian ideal?

    Be a spate of that in Costa Coffee shops here - guess what. Those toilets are unisex.
    And?

    Not wanting transgender people to be in the bathroom of the sex they were not assigned at birth is not about "restricting transgender people" it's about our society being over-liberal and creating opportunities for abuse that do not currently exist.
    THe problem here is two-fold, that you assume without evidence there are significant opportunities for abuse created, and that you fail to even notice the "over-liberalization" is advocated for the opportunities for abuse that it eliminates. Again, why do you think there's a problem with transgender people doing what they already do when they can? You are proposing a restriction, like how before the 1970s Britain restricted gay men by pursuing them into bathrooms in the name of public morality. And what do these restrictions do in service of segregating genders. It is difficult to make sense of the logic unless you reject the social status of transgenders and seek to characterize their behavior as injurious to public safety - which would be a prejudicial stance.

    However, I accept it's illegal in the UK for reasons of collective safety.
    Again, the fact that guns are restricted does not mean that any hypothetical restriction is merited.

    AM I talking about transgender people? See, I though I was criticising Beskar for suggesting that anyone who DARED question the current transgender orthodoxy was morally bankrupt.
    Correct me if I'm missing something, but here you've argued that it is appropriate to (eliding implementation) prevent transgenders from using bathrooms not aligned with their assigned birth sex, and you have argued that unisex spaces are bad and contribute to sex crimes. I'm not sure whether you are trying to link these two lines of thought. Do you argue the two points above, and if so, do you have any connection to make between them? And why?

    My point, however, is that you seem only willing or able to see things from your own perspective - you resist seeing things from the perspective of others, this prevents you from understanding their position - which is why your attacks often miss. This is especially true in my case.
    I haven't seen you try to understand our positions very hard.

    Per the preceding, go ahead and clarify your position. Be sure to specify how we can tell there is no whiff of prejudice.

    My point, however, is that you seem only willing or able to see things from your own perspective - you resist seeing things from the perspective of others, this prevents you from understanding their position - which is why your attacks often miss. This is especially true in my case.
    I have no problem with women breastfeeding in public. However, our society frowns on public nudity and for that reason, and to avoid exciting the undue interest of teenage boys, I really think they should use a shawl - but apparently that makes me a monster for expecting women who are breastfeeding to only be as modest as women who aren't.
    I would ask why women should adhere to your standard of modesty, and why two different categories of women should adhere to the same standard despite your highlighting that they are different categories, but really the important thing is that what you personally feel is whatever, you're entitled to your opinion - so long as you don't advocate regulation of breastfeeding women by law, business, or civil society. Same by garishly-dressed transpersons or anyone else whose style you disapprove of. We've all been there. (I really hope you are not so traditionalist as to advocate reinstating sumptuary laws...)

    We, as a society, now tend to treat all cases of gender dis-morphia as transgenderism rather than as a psychological disorder. This is a very new idea, relatively speaking, and it is perhaps not entirely wise. The majority of children who display gender dis-morphia historically resolved their issues during puberty, but now we put teenagers on puberty-blocking drugs which can have harmful side effects and prevent them going through the process that might cause their condition to naturally resolve itself. Of course, we're now discouraged from even seeing is as a "condition".
    Are you making this judgement after diligent reference to modern medical literature and practice? Why do you think there is a willy-nilly approach to gender dysphoria?

    An incredibly blokish man doing doing an embarrassing, sexist, drag act - am I really expected to believe this is a "real" woman?

    I am not allowed to question this?
    Hmm. Do you think they can be "allowed" to question your view of them?

    Teenage boys spend all their spare time trying to see tits
    Is your social hierarchy centered on (a monolithic image of) teenage boys? Who cares.

    No guns, not allowed to say the majority of swear words because they offend someone, tried to censor "Fairy-tale in New York".

    Not that I necessarily disagree with banning homophobic or racial slurs, but it IS repression. Saying it isn't is rather like claiming Christianity isn't a cult.
    Hmmm, Britain may be your city but you're forgetting the diversity that exists among liberal Western governments. For example, over nearly a century American jurisprudence has increasingly reinforced a free-speech regime that is perhaps the closest a society has ever come to absolutism.

    but then children tend to have poorly developed empathy - which is why they are capable of such cruelty.
    So teach them. From what I see and hear children are less cruel and chauvinistic than they were a generation ago. There's nothing wrong with looking at girls or boys so long as one isn't an asshole about it, and doesn't develop derogatory or exclusionary mindset.

    especially when I made it quite clear what people are worried about is sexual assault and not peeping toms.
    Oh yeah, just to shoehorn another instantiation for the upper reaches: I might be worried about black students attending my daughter's school because I'm worried about sexual assault... That would be a shameful worry to maintain. To act on it would be a basic exercise of racism, and ought-need be called out as such.

    From my historical reading and observation of contemporary politics I have come to the conclusion that any nation larger than, say, Germany, tends to become coercive because in order to function the central government has to remain below a certain size lest it become unwieldy. From this it follows that elected representatives have unacceptably large constituencies and therefore become unacceptably remote from the people they are meant to represent.
    I think that's a reasonable conclusion. Presumably a world-government would have to be structured in a bipolar fashion to maximize subsidiarity, local autonomy plus self-sufficiency, and inter-municipal solidarity and cooperation alongside the global apparatus. The latter would have to have built-in safeguards to shrink or restructure over time while augmenting and safeguarding the horizontal mechanisms of democratic power at the bottom of the dumbbell-form. It would not work well for long without a universally-educated and activated populace. It would be the hardest thing we've ever done. But we can never let perfect be the enemy of good - while juggling the importance of aspiration and high expectations.

    Also, there's the whole thing with the specter of species-wide civilizational collapse dogging us...

    I have enough reasons to hate myself, so I'm trying not to add to the list.
    As long as we're speaking of bygones, you seem much colder this go around. I've been feeling it almost for half a year. Is that a real thing?
    Last edited by Montmorency; 07-11-2019 at 08:00.
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  14. #44
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I'm still not sure what subject we're currently on, but a couple problems:
    Neither am I.

    1. This assumes that any attempt, or any means, to mitigate "small risk" is equally appropriate or salutary. To some extent deterrence is a component of any criminal justice system - yet we do not condone systematic torture toward deterrence basically because it's evil (and less saliently ineffective). Alternatively, men commit the lion's share (tee hee) of violent crimes. Would it be just to establish matriarchy and heavily subordinate men in the name of public safety?
    2. It is historically false to say that gendered bathrooms were introduced as a response to men assaulting women in shared spaces. Perhaps you made this assumption because you were applying your contemporary perspective to historical contexts.
    1. You are correct that not all restrictions are necessary salutatory, but the argument over restrictions in bathroom use (and other breastfeeding in public) take the opposite extreme - any restriction is discrimination. It is this latter position I have a problem with. I use the comparison of gun ownership because, contrary to popular belief, gun ownership is actually historically quite popular in the UK, and also in Australia and New Zealand - but all three countries have ultimately taken the same stance on gun ownership in response to pretty much their first or second mass shooting.

    Similar arguments are even being had over the actual process of assigning sex at birth where some queer people see this as an infringement of the child or parents' rights. In my view our society is becoming overly permissive in allowing people to self-define their identity rather than having their identity be at least partially defined by society. Remember, society is the collection of people you live with - it needs to have some rules and structures so that people understand how to get along. Something like assigning sex (as opposed to gender) at birth should not be controversial except in the unlikely event that the child is intersex.

    2. Prior to female-only bathrooms there were only male-only bathrooms. Women had to urinate in gutters.

    Maybe it's not necessarily the case. But is it not the case? Justification is warranted. An employer may genuinely be worried that Asian candidates are indolent thieves; what's the source of this worry, and is it changeable?
    Honestly, I've seen the "man in a dress" on the street. It's something you notice precisely because of the incongruity, it's usually a middle-aged man, walking like a middle-aged man, wearing a very silly dress and a very bad wig. This will be, in some cases, a transgender woman only coming out late in life trying to shake off a mess of learned behaviours where "he" was trying to be as manly as possible to cover up who she was.

    I'm not unsympathetic, but the bald truth is that if you saw her walking into the female toilets following your teenage daughter it looks like a middle-aged man wearing a dress as an excuse to walk into the toilets following your teenage daughter.

    Now, as a father, what do you do in that circumstance? Risk your daughter being assaulted, or risk being arrested for assaulting a woman who has spent her life pretending to be a man? It's quite easy to see why many fathers would just default to option one on a visceral level, even if they don't follow through.

    It's also quite easy to understand why a man who's never had to think hard about his sexuality or gender, and even more so one who has but concluded he's actually a straight man anyway, will be sceptical of the "man in a dress."

    You arrest on the basis of ownership, not on the basis of intention. And anyway, you neglect consideration of whether a particular law is reasonable or not. I'm confident you don't believe that literally any restriction is legitimate or desirable; thus the necessary recourse is to the facts of the matter.
    That's right - we arrest anyone carrying a penknife in public without a good excuse. I think that's repressive, don't you?

    Sure you are, as you admit in the next clause. But every system has inconsistencies, are you really complaining that we haven't realized some utopian ideal?
    Britain is simply not a liberal society - America is - my point is that when you are only selectively Liberal about the things YOU think people should be allowed to do you aren't really Liberals. Liberals let people do the things they think they shouldn't be allowed to do.

    And?
    Pretty obviously it's much easier for a man to deploy a camera in a unisex toilet with a sinlge cubicle - he has a legitimate reason to be there and nobody can see him. So, this is clearly a downside of unisex toilets, especially single cubicle ones - although the same applies to enclosed cubicles.

    The only way around that is to either have regular sweeps for bugs or CCTV in the cubicles.

    THe problem here is two-fold, that you assume without evidence there are significant opportunities for abuse created, and that you fail to even notice the "over-liberalization" is advocated for the opportunities for abuse that it eliminates. Again, why do you think there's a problem with transgender people doing what they already do when they can? You are proposing a restriction, like how before the 1970s Britain restricted gay men by pursuing them into bathrooms in the name of public morality. And what do these restrictions do in service of segregating genders. It is difficult to make sense of the logic unless you reject the social status of transgenders and seek to characterize their behavior as injurious to public safety - which would be a prejudicial stance.
    When did I actually say "transexuals should be barred from the bathroom of the sex they identify with"?

    Good God, I posted a picture of Nicole Maines, challenged Beskar to tell her her gender was artificial and said I thought she was cute the last season of Supergirl.

    Here's her wikipedia bio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicole_Maines

    That being said, I can understand why some people WOULD want such a ban

    Again, the fact that guns are restricted does not mean that any hypothetical restriction is merited.
    Again, whilst this is true the reverse also follows - if we can accept gun restriction then not all restrictions are immoral.

    Correct me if I'm missing something, but here you've argued that it is appropriate to (eliding implementation) prevent transgenders from using bathrooms not aligned with their assigned birth sex, and you have argued that unisex spaces are bad and contribute to sex crimes. I'm not sure whether you are trying to link these two lines of thought. Do you argue the two points above, and if so, do you have any connection to make between them? And why?
    Yes - you completely missed the part where I didn't argue against transexuals using the appropriate (as in the one corresponding to their identified sex) bathroom. I am, however, against unisex facilities - which is something many Queer people (which is not the same lobby as the transgender lobby, necessarily) are increasingly pushing for.

    I'm 100% behind the transgender lobby on this issue. Having said that, I do have reservations about a trend developing where every teenager with gender dis-morphia is diagnosed as transgender or transexual.

    I haven't seen you try to understand our positions very hard.

    Per the preceding, go ahead and clarify your position. Be sure to specify how we can tell there is no whiff of prejudice.
    My position is that I don't think people should be punished for holding view which were mainstream 20 years ago but which now have become unfashionable. I note that you described Furunculus' expression of caution on this topic as "not respectable" which verges on an accusation of prejudice, just for not wholeheartedly agreeing.

    That sort of thought pattern is prevalent in religious fundamentalists, it's the sort of think that the Taliban thinks - executing people who aren't Muslim "enough".

    A Liberal society should be tolerant of differing views, it should be able to debate them calmly and rationally without resorting to name-calling.

    I would ask why women should adhere to your standard of modesty, and why two different categories of women should adhere to the same standard despite your highlighting that they are different categories, but really the important thing is that what you personally feel is whatever, you're entitled to your opinion - so long as you don't advocate regulation of breastfeeding women by law, business, or civil society. Same by garishly-dressed transpersons or anyone else whose style you disapprove of. We've all been there. (I really hope you are not so traditionalist as to advocate reinstating sumptuary laws...)
    Why shouldn't breastfeeding be regulated by law? Urination is regulated by law, sleeping is regulated by law.

    It's not my standard of modesty, anyway, it's the generally accepted standard in most Anglophone countries - women are expected to not bear their breasts in public. From that it logically follows that it should be fine for women to breastfeed in public, so long as they don't expose their breasts. The women sitting on public benches with a child suckling their dress around their waste and both breasts exposed are making a political statement.

    They are using their nudity to force society to acknowledge that they are breastfeeding in public. I get it, but I don't approve of the tactic, and I don't approve of people life that Museum steward being punished for asking them to adhere to the same standards of PUBLIC decency as EVERYONE else.

    Asking women to use a shawl is not some terrible patriarchal imposition, it's asking them to have consideration of others, especially other parents with children who may not want them exposed to nude women.

    Are you making this judgement after diligent reference to modern medical literature and practice? Why do you think there is a willy-nilly approach to gender dysphoria?
    I've read quite a lot of journalism on the topic and also a few papers - look up the Tavistock Centre and the recent controversy there. It's not a "willy-nilly" approach so much as a "one size fits all" approach which includes mastectomy for teenage girls and castration for teenage boys.

    I've definitely read of cases where teenage girls have been identified as transgender and undergone hormone treatment and surgery at age 16.

    Hmm. Do you think they can be "allowed" to question your view of them?
    At the present time I would say that anyone who, on meeting someone who claims to be transgender, questions that person's claim can probably expect to lose their job.

    Is your social hierarchy centered on (a monolithic image of) teenage boys? Who cares.
    I think the greatest threat the teenage girls is probably teenage boys, from personal experience.

    Hmmm, Britain may be your city but you're forgetting the diversity that exists among liberal Western governments. For example, over nearly a century American jurisprudence has increasingly reinforced a free-speech regime that is perhaps the closest a society has ever come to absolutism.
    I referenced this above, that doesn't make the supposedly Liberal Britain less repressive.

    So teach them. From what I see and hear children are less cruel and chauvinistic than they were a generation ago. There's nothing wrong with looking at girls or boys so long as one isn't an asshole about it, and doesn't develop derogatory or exclusionary mindset.
    Who was it said, "Children are little barbarians and the purpose of education is to civilise them before they grow up cause the collapse of society."?

    Walking down the street of a Saturday Night I don't think the students are that much more enlightened than they were a decade ago. Certainly, few are the young, intelligent, assertive female academics not relived when I offer to walk them home.

    Oh yeah, just to shoehorn another instantiation for the upper reaches: I might be worried about black students attending my daughter's school because I'm worried about sexual assault... That would be a shameful worry to maintain. To act on it would be a basic exercise of racism, and ought-need be called out as such.
    What about, say, an influx of young boys from a country like Afghanistan where "woman's rights" are considered optional at best? Is it still shameful to be worried? Or, what about merging of school districts that brings in a group of which boys from a rough neighbourhood with a reputation for drug use and not being safe after dark. Still shameful?

    There's a difference between being concerned about people outside your social group not adhering to your standards and racism. If you're just worried because the boy is black then that's obviously racist, it's a little different if he's from a slum because then you need to ask yourself if it's the colour he is or the slum he's from.

    I think that's a reasonable conclusion. Presumably a world-government would have to be structured in a bipolar fashion to maximize subsidiarity, local autonomy plus self-sufficiency, and inter-municipal solidarity and cooperation alongside the global apparatus. The latter would have to have built-in safeguards to shrink or restructure over time while augmenting and safeguarding the horizontal mechanisms of democratic power at the bottom of the dumbbell-form. It would not work well for long without a universally-educated and activated populace. It would be the hardest thing we've ever done. But we can never let perfect be the enemy of good - while juggling the importance of aspiration and high expectations.
    I don't see world government as necessarily "good", I think world peace is good - but that's just the absence of violence, it's not a political order.

    Also, there's the whole thing with the specter of species-wide civilizational collapse dogging us...
    Rome is always falling, and always because of natural disasters.

    As long as we're speaking of bygones, you seem much colder this go around. I've been feeling it almost for half a year. Is that a real thing?
    Colder? I don't know, life's not much fun these days, aside from still being trapped in this PhD I'm in increasing pain as my joints take a beating from my Palsy. I'm probably less playful and more direct than I used to be. I don't really have the time or mental energy to write page-long screeds on one line of the Bible any more just for fits and giggle.

    Plus, if I make an offhand comment suggesting maybe, just maybe, a man with a teenage daughter might have some legitimate reservations about allowing non-certified people who claim a transgender identity sharing a washroom with said daughter it becomes a whole thing.

    Now I'm having to explain, repeatedly, that I don't personally have a problem with trangender people in certain bathrooms, but I have a problem with people who do just being tarred as prejudiced - as though that sort of view wasn't completely normal less than two decades ago.

    I come from a fairly liberal family that generally goes along with trying to strike a balance between tradition, common courtesy and everyone just getting along. Increasingly the world, online and offline, seems to resemble an Early-Modern state where any deviation from the accepted social orthodoxy is severely punished by society, and that orthodoxy is also rapidly changing.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  15. #45
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I similarly agree about gender and sexuality on that they are both similarly constructed but it is not a matter of "choice". It is a preference. Deciding to choose I don't want to dislike coffee doesn't stop me from having the utter disgust when I drink it.

    To me, a social construct =/= choice and it is a separate thing. It may be simply we disagree on that and leave it there.
    I'll allow that view is more consistent than the one you have previously enumerated but I still dispute the idea that gender or sexuality are "constructed".

    If you read the wikipedia on libertarian socialism, it is not a top-down construct. It is a horizontal one. The concept also has it's flaws and practicalities which impairs it from working. It works differently to both the EU and the USA.
    I don't have a problem with your theoretical goals - I have a problem with the fact that you actually seem to want to implement them. In the case of Libertarian Socialism it falls flat for the same reason as every other form of Socialism - everybody has to buy into the social aspect for it to work.

    That has worked relatively well in the Nordic countries but they have relatively small populations with relatively high homogeneity. Even then you have issues over eugenics (especially against people with mental disabilities) and endemic racism against native non-Scandinavians like the Sami.

    There is nothing fundamentally wrong with finding it difficult with certain concepts and examples. You linked an article about a GP calling a 6foot man with a beard "Ma'am". He was asking to simply follow the process/procedure as per his training. He wasn't asked to suddenly change his world view on the subject and there are tactful ways of going about things rather than outright refusal such as not using any gender pronounce and merely documenting that said person who identify self with a female gender.

    What is disallowed is enforcing beliefs which are detriment to someones care. I am not saying that the GP in question did this.
    What if she insists you call her Madam? What if ze insists you call them by a made up pronoun xhey invented for xheself? At what point does the clinician have the right to their own personal beliefs, so long as they treat the patient?

    This is a question we do not ask often enough.

    You are right but not right. I was downplaying his Brexit views and I did not find them to be negatively. I fundamentally do not oppose Brexit at an irrational level. I simply disagree on a lot of issues surrounding Brexit. I want a second referendum based on clarification and purpose. Not as an excuse to stop Brexit which I have consistently tried to convey.

    Going further to suggest than this was incorrect. I wasn't suggesting he was removed due to transrights instead. He could have sadly been removed due to his views on Brexit which I believe was the thrust of the article. If anything I disagree with such a move.

    [will come back later.]
    Then why mention it at all? Or rather, why slate him for it in such an offhand manner without any additional context?
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  16. #46
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    [Continued.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    So, as a teenage boy you didn't spend a lot of your time looking at teenage girls? We used to call it "bird watching" at College, and we did it pretty much every free period. We were, at that time, still technically "children". Hardly something I'm proud of, but then children tend to have poorly developed empathy - which is why they are capable of such cruelty.
    Wait for it.. I got a really good reply this one after in the next quotation. [Cue suspense, wanton anticipation. A cliff-hanger.]

    As for the children, I wasn't really discussing Teenagers as they are developing their earlier experiences. I am making references to Jane Elliott's famous experiment school children.
    Video from 03/26/85 with original footage. (WATCH THIS - Very Good)
    Here is an article on the experiment. It is a really big insight on Social Construction of identities.


    On reflection, I should probably clarify my experience in Social Construction and Identity work. I have a MSc in Social Psychology with my thesis discussing 'faces' we use in personal and private realms in regards to phenomena such as Group Polarisation, with me performing an qualitative study with 4 groups, 2 topics of Morality (Heinz dilemma, War in Afghanistan), where participants adopting more extreme positions (risky-shift) within the group. I am not randomly talking out of my ass even if I am lazy in my explanations on the topic.

    Really? You're the one who claims not to spend his time looking at girls - isn't that more prudish?
    On the discussion where you bring up the topic of sexual orientation (as a crux against me), you failed to consider my own. Would you really accuse a gay man of being a prude for not spending his time looking at girls? [insert smiley here]
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Don't worry, I don't identify as homosexual either. I am a Demisexual.
    So in reply to your other comment, it isn't because I am no longer a teenage boy either. I didn't have it back then either. Oh, it is a royal a pain in the behind when it comes to relationships.


    I never said that you were necessarily unable to be a good person without believing in God, I said that it was impossible to be a good person "without God" because without a Divine arbiter there's no way for Good and Evil to be distinguished.
    This ties in with my disclosure 'on reflection' either where I alluded to Kohlberg's stages of moral development in the use of the Heinz Dilemma. I embrace human reason, ethics, and philosophical naturalism as driving forces behind morality and decision making. I find this viewpoint significantly superior and to borrow your word, sophisticated than Cloud-Guy "Making it so". You can easily see why I easily find myself identifying with the Secular Humanism movement. (even if you classify it as absurd.)

    As you know, I was raised in a church environment. I used to know the bible like the back of my hand. I was very well thought of in my church community and I even keep touch with people from there still. I even got an 'adoptive' grandmother that still to this day gifts with me home-baked cookies (she is great). I have deep respect for those individuals even if we don't share beliefs.
    As an intelligent child growing in their teen-age years, I asked questions and I was always left wanting, I remember my Sunday teacher once going: "That is wrong because it is wrong" Me:"But why?" Them:"You should know better than that." This grow worse as I grew older, as I found myself challenging and being challenged for views I could not support. I saw homosexuals being mistreated, people in need of help being shunned due to being 'desperate in the wrong way'. I even saw sexual abuse by 'good men', yeah, it is not just in newspaper over there in the middle of no where, it happens right under your nose.
    I was even stigmatised heavily against by my devout catholic (and overall horrible person) Religious Studies teacher for being the 'wrong kind of Christian'!

    It is no wonder I am an apostate, the religion is a lie. Means of control over the masses. Don't get me wrong, spirituality is an important aspect to a person, but you don't need religion to have that. You find receive it in other ways.

    Right, conflating Devon and Cornwall will get you two black eyes in a rural pub in both counties. The two sides can't even agree on how to have tea and scones, and when a National Trust property posted an advert in Cornwall with it the "wrong" way they received threats of boycott and even, irrc, violence, that caused them to issue an abject grovelling apology. Now, if you don't like me telling you that I'm sorry, but I see no reason to sugarcoat it - and I see no reason not to criticise you for trying to downplay regional differences which two regions consider essential to their identity.
    I have absolutely no issue with you telling me about Cornish and Devon identities. I personally find the concept to be intriguing, I am happy for you to tell me more about it and listen intently.
    The problem was, I wasn't conflating those identities but you repeatedly insisted at the time that I was. This is despite my explanations that I wasn't even discussing identities.

    See - this is the gap between the world you think other people want and the world other people actually want, and it's why I find your dream so objectionable. You probably think the Cornish and Devonians should "get on" right? They don't want to though, and the only way they will is if you force them, either directly or by erasing their local identities.
    You can exchange "Cornish" and "Devonians" with pretty much any other identity. Though I disagree that you need to erase their local identities. Modify them? Possibly. I am not one for stagnation.

    Never read that thread, in case you were wondering
    Everyone wished you well, including myself. ACIN even said fondly about how his first post on the Org was in response to you (and how you trashed him in your reply after!).

    my dislike of you caused me to miss the last year or so of Fragony's life. That's a sin for which I can never atone and therefore I shall have to carry to my grave.
    A sin? You are definitely taking far too much responsibility upon your shoulders!

    This is Fragony! Bas! He is the live life loose and fast without a care in the world. Life of the party. A good heart even if some of his views are misplaced. He would be pleasantly mocking you for making such a statement. All he would want you to do is not worry about him and live your life to the fullest.

    As far as "burying the hatchet" goes, I've found that rarely works and in any case you haven't changed in any way that would make such an exercise meaningful, and nor have I.
    Well, I am burying regardless. Because I am a forgiving person and I dislike disliking people.

    Have you considered applying a smiley if the joke doesn't have an obvious punch line?
    The definition of dry humour is that it doesn't have an obvious punch-line. I also tend to have a quality of doing it without a forced intention.

    In this case though, you're mocking me, which is something you should only do with someone you know has a good opinion of you and your character
    I am not mocking you. I am 'throwing a spanner in the works' of your slippery-slope with some healthy ridicule. You need tp detach yourself from your statements if you took my comment personally.

    An example [only an example] of insulting you as a person would be saying if I am the Federation of Plants, you are Gilead. [Now, this is only for example purposes to demonstrate. Not intended as a personal attack.]
    Last edited by Beskar; 07-12-2019 at 01:51.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    What if she insists you call her Madam? What if ze insists you call them by a made up pronoun xhey invented for xheself? At what point does the clinician have the right to their own personal beliefs, so long as they treat the patient?
    As a clinical, the exchange would go something like this:

    Good to meet you, would you prefer to be called Phillippus?
    "Hello (hypothetical)Dr Beskar, thank you for seeing me. Phillipuu if you don't mind. I do identify as zir/ze",
    That is okay Phillipuu, tell me what brought you to see me here today.
    *some time later*
    It has been a pleasure meeting you Phillipuu, I hope we are able to resolve this issue. I am going to refer you to XYZ services as discussed, and hopefully they will be able to support you from there. If you need further assistance, please feel free to make another appointment.
    "Thank you Dr Beskar".


    Medical Notes:
    Outpatients appoint - First meeting, Phillipuu (Phillippus) has expressed an interest in being referred as zir/ze. We discussed an ongoing issue ABC and I have referred them to XYZ services. I will follow this up in 2 months time but I have advised Phillipuu they can make an appointment at any time if they require further support."


    At no point during this interaction my personal views interfere with my line of work. I am not overly familiar with those gender-neutral terms (I prefer they/them) so they appear awkward and unwieldy, but they are recognised never-the-less. My personal views do not negatively affect my services at any time. At what point does I (the clinician) or the service user (Phillipuu) have any issue with this interaction?

    The example of the Dr was similarly instructed as such. You are entitled to your views, but follow process/procedure. That is to respect the individuals wishes and have a duty of care. That Doctor failed in the fundamental basics of what it means to be a Doctor in delivering Person-Centred Care. No wonder he was told he should consider early retirement because if he cannot do the basics... do you really trust him to have your best interests?

    In examples of abortion, as a Roman Catholic you may have an issue with it. You recognise that you are unable not to impose your views, professionally, it would be best to state to the patient "I am a Roman Catholic, but we do have specialist services to advise you", and you would actively sign-post the individual to another clinician. Even then, you could still provide basic information on Abortion without going: "You will go to Hell and burn in everlasting fire, sinner!".

    This is a question we do not ask often enough.
    For you maybe. But this is something actively discussed since day one in Healthcare and continually throughout.
    Last edited by Beskar; 07-17-2019 at 03:20.
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  18. #48
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    [Continued.]

    Wait for it.. I got a really good reply this one after in the next quotation. [Cue suspense, wanton anticipation. A cliff-hanger.]


    [Philip has no useful comment here but felt that this part needed to be broken off]

    As for the children, I wasn't really discussing Teenagers as they are developing their earlier experiences. I am making references to Jane Elliott's famous experiment school children. Here is an article on the experiment. It is a really big insight on Social Construction of identities.
    OK, well I'm talking about my experience of being a teenager, and also my experience of having to help coral them in the ACF. They'd literally be off in the bushes up to all sorts if we were enclosed in a camp for more than three days. It's actually a miracle there weren't more sexual assaults now that I think about it.

    Maybe we were just good at terrifying the boys into submission.

    On reflection, I should probably clarify my experience in Social Construction and Identity work. I have a MSc in Social Psychology with my thesis discussing 'faces' we use in personal and private realms in regards to phenomena such as Group Polarisation, with me performing an qualitative study with 4 groups, 2 topics of Morality (Heinz dilemma, War in Afghanistan), where participants adopting more extreme positions (risky-shift) within the group. I am not randomly talking out of my ass even if I am lazy in my explanations on the topic.
    That is easily the most interesting thing you've written on these boards in years.

    On the discussion where you bring up the topic of sexual orientation (as a crux against me), you failed to consider my own. Would you really accuse a gay man of being a prude for not spending his time looking at girls? [insert smiley here]
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Don't worry, I don't identify as homosexual either. I am a Demisexual.
    So in reply to your other comment, it isn't because I am no longer a teenage boy either. I didn't have it back then either. Oh, it is a royal a pain in the behind when it comes to relationships. How do you convey sexual attraction to initiate a relationship without it looking forced/wrong? There aren't love movies where the protagonist is essentially "After getting to know you, I have decided you are worthy of my attention and efforts and I would like to request to take this to the next level".
    Honestly, this is not a great revelation to me, I more or less figured it was something like that. The fact you don't spend your time having to remember to look every "well endowed" woman in the eyes is not something I would describe as a character flaw. It is not, however, something that is especially common.

    If I might observe, though, you'd do well to be more "old fashioned" and cultivate polite but friendly relationships with multiple women. The worst that can happen is that you become sufficiently interested in someone to become attracted to her and she doesn't reciprocate - at which point you're in the same boat as every other poor bastard.

    Also - the Netherlands has absolutely no gentlemen left, apparently, there are some women there who are very appreciative of men who are polite and considerate. This piece of advice is useful for all Englishmen, though, and probably Canadians too.

    This ties in with my disclosure 'on reflection' either where I alluded to Kohlberg's stages of moral development in the use of the Heinz Dilemma. I embrace human reason, ethics, and philosophical naturalism as driving forces behind morality and decision making. I find this viewpoint significantly superior and to borrow your word, sophisticated than Cloud-Guy "Making it so". You can easily see why I easily find myself identifying with the Secular Humanism movement. (even if you classify it as absurd.)


    "Man is the measure of all things, of the things that are, that they are, of the things that are not, that they are not." - Protagoras, the first Sophist.

    We've had the this argument before - my observation remains the same - any claim to objective truth as regards right or wrong presupposes some "higher power" whereas any appeal purely to human reason and ethics is an appeal to utility.

    I reject Utilitarianism from an ideological standpoint. Where I find Secular Humanists philosophically incoherent is their rejection of any higher power whilst still using the language and logical framework of Neo-Platonic Christian morality.

    As you know, I was raised in a church environment. I used to know the bible like the back of my hand. I was very well thought of in my church community and I even keep touch with people from there still. I even got an 'adoptive' grandmother that still to this day gifts with me home-baked cookies (she is great). I have deep respect for those individuals even if we don't share beliefs.
    As an intelligent child growing in their teen-age years, I asked questions and I was always left wanting, I remember my Sunday teacher once going: "That is wrong because it is wrong" Me:"But why?" Them:"You should know better than that." This grow worse as I grew older, as I found myself challenging and being challenged for views I could not support. I saw homosexuals being mistreated, people in need of help being shunned due to being 'desperate in the wrong way'. I even saw sexual abuse by 'good men', yeah, it is not just in newspaper over there in the middle of no where, it happens right under your nose.
    I was even stigmatised heavily against by my devout catholic (and overall horrible person) Religious Studies teacher for being the 'wrong kind of Christian'!

    It is no wonder I am an apostate, the religion is a lie. Means of control over the masses. Don't get me wrong, spirituality is an important aspect to a person, but you don't need religion to have that. You find receive it in other ways.
    No, it is no wonder you are an apostate. However, just because people use religion to justify or excuse terrible things does not mean there is no God. You don't need religion to cover up abuses - all the depredations practised by the Christian Churches were also practised within the BBC, that big cuddly corporation that tells us what to think from cradle to grave.

    I have absolutely no issue with you telling me about Cornish and Devon identities. I personally find the concept to be intriguing, I am happy for you to tell me more about it and listen intently.
    The problem was, I wasn't conflating those identities but you repeatedly insisted at the time that I was. This is despite my explanations that I wasn't even discussing identities.

    You can exchange "Cornish" and "Devonians" with pretty much any other identity. Though I disagree that you need to erase their local identities. Modify them? Possibly. I am not one for stagnation.
    See, this is the thing you do that's so infuriating, really, honestly makes me want to hit you sometimes.

    When you tell a Cornishman his identity is "intriguing" you belittle it, it's not intriguing, it's important and if you can't see that it's not worth his time explaining his tin mines to you. It's certainly not worth his time if you think the identity might need "modifying".

    Funny how Monty thinks I'm cold when you're the one who expects everyone else to be as dispassionate about their lives as you are.

    Everyone wished you well, including myself. ACIN even said about how his post on the Org was in response to you (and how you trashed him in your reply after!).
    Well that's sad, really, isn't it? On multiple levels.


    A sin? You are definitely taking far too much responsibility upon your shoulders!

    This is Fragony! Bas! He is the live life loose and fast without a care in the world. Life of the party. A good heart even if some of his views are misplaced. He would be pleasantly mocking you for making such a statement. All he would want you to do is not worry about him and live your life to the fullest.
    Who should I blame for my leaving, then? You for being impossible?

    Guilt is an essential part of being a good person, if I didn't feel guilty I might get infuriated and leave again, mightn't I?

    Guilt is very underrated, if people spent more time feeling guilty they'd spend more time trying not to do bad things and making up for the things they did do.


    Well, I am burying regardless. Because I am a forgiving person and I dislike disliking people.
    Like I said, I don't hate you - I just don't want any part of the world you want to create.

    The definition of dry humour is that it doesn't have an obvious punch-line. I also tend to have a quality of doing it without a forced intention.
    Face to face dry humour is delivered in a deadpan or with a wry expression - hence the need for a smiley.

    I am not mocking you. I am 'throwing a spanner in the works' of your slippery-slope with some healthy ridicule. You need tp detach yourself from your statements if you took my comment personally.

    An example [only an example] of insulting you as a person would be saying if I am the Federation of Plants, you are Gilead. [Now, this is only for example purposes to demonstrate. Not intended as a personal attack.]
    So you're ridiculing me instead of mocking me? I'm sorry Beskar, either way I'm entitled to be offended if I so choose. Ridicule is not better than mocking, it just sounds cleverer because the word has a Latin root.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  19. #49
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    ---
    I have a tendency to go back and re-edit posts for clarity when I notice errors. I recommend going back up to see the video link for example for the experiment.

    If I might observe, though, you'd do well to be more "old fashioned" and cultivate polite but friendly relationships with multiple women. The worst that can happen is that you become sufficiently interested in someone to become attracted to her and she doesn't reciprocate - at which point you're in the same boat as every other poor bastard.
    I have many female friends, they are taken in that regard.
    Also 'old fashioned' approach tends to lead to ghosting... the modern world we live in.

    Also - the Netherlands has absolutely no gentlemen left, apparently, there are some women there who are very appreciative of men who are polite and considerate. This piece of advice is useful for all Englishmen, though, and probably Canadians too.
    I love the dutch honesty.

    However, just because people use religion to justify or excuse terrible things does not mean there is no God.
    More to it than that (obviously). The hypocrisy is utterly disgusting though.
    I don't need to say I find any culture of abuse to be abhorrent.

    See, this is the thing you do that's so infuriating, really, honestly makes me want to hit you sometimes.

    When you tell a Cornishman his identity is "intriguing" you belittle it, it's not intriguing, it's important and if you can't see that it's not worth his time explaining his tin mines to you.
    Forgive me for flipping this to make a point. You stated that you studied pagan morality, yes?
    "When you tell a Pagan that his morality is 'intriguing', you belittle it. It's not intriguing, it's important and if you can't see that it's not worth his time explaining his thunder bolts to you".

    Most people actually like having an active interest being taken in them. They understand you are different, but the fact you are willing to understand them more makes them proud to show off their achievements. Intellectual curiosity is not a bad thing. People practice exchange of faiths where for example a Christian and Muslim may inform each other more about their religions to have better understanding.
    In your eyes, are they belittling and insulting each-other? If not, why not, because in the why not, you will be explaining why I am not belittling being interested to learn more about Cornish identity.

    As for modification.. well... if they are the violent brutes you describe them as, Cornish and Devonians face to face pitchforks to the hand. They require some mediation and peace-making. Or are you against peace-making? Are Cornish people defined by their hatred of the Devonians that if they were friendly, they would cease to exist? if so, I hope they don't make peace soon, I have a soft-spot for Cornish Ice-creams... the pastries are pretty okay too.

    Well that's sad, really, isn't it? On multiple levels.
    That everyone wished you well, including your 'worst enemy' ?
    Honesty, maybe you should re-evaluate things and realise 'maybe they are not actually that bad'.

    Who should I blame for my leaving, then? You for being impossible?
    Guilt is an essential part of being a good person, if I didn't feel guilty I might get infuriated and leave again, mightn't I?
    Sadly, your leaving was your own decision.
    I am far from impossible. Any serious thinking about that would easily dispel that notion. I would contend it was closer to home, but I have a feeling you will take more slight from that then I ever intend.

    Guilt is very underrated, if people spent more time feeling guilty they'd spend more time trying not to do bad things and making up for the things they did do.
    I am my own worst critic. There is an element of guilt when it comes to some behaviours, there is also anger, there is disappointment, there is a range of various emotions.

    So you're ridiculing me instead of mocking me? I'm sorry Beskar, either way I'm entitled to be offended if I so choose. Ridicule is not better than mocking, it just sounds cleverer because the word has a Latin root.
    The slippery-slope example, not you.
    There is a distinction there, even if you don't recognise it.

    They are separate entities to yourself, even if related. If you still, I cannot help you other than point it out then hope you can tolerable it if you are unable to move from your position. I don't intend that to be rude but I cannot control your offence.
    Last edited by Beskar; 07-13-2019 at 10:55.
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  20. #50
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Similar arguments are even being had over the actual process of assigning sex at birth where some queer people see this as an infringement of the child or parents' rights.
    1. Sex is not assigned. It is what the person is inevitably born with. Otherwise you might as well talk of assigning lefthandiness or righthandiness.

    2. Sex is neither assigned nor formed AT BIRTH. It happens during pregnancy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  21. #51
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    A friend of mine was talking about trans-rights. He lives in Charlotte, NC, I'm in Athens GA. We're both relatively recent transplants into what is becoming an increasingly resurgent fundamentalist Southern US...

    We also live in a part of the world where the average daytime high is 93-95F (~35C) in the summertime.

    He said "A trans friend of mine was asked, if it was made legal, where would you go first?"... with the expectations being locker rooms, restrooms or changing rooms being at the top of the list.

    "A public swimming pool" was the answer. This whole 'love one another as I have loved you" thing... yeah, we're failing that.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

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  22. #52
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    As a clinician, the exchange would go something like this:

    Good to meet you, would you prefer to be called Phillippus?
    "Hello Dr Beskar, thank you for seeing me. Phillipuu if you don't mind. I do identify as zir/ze",
    That is okay Phillipuu, tell me what brought you to see me here today.
    *some time later*
    It has been a pleasure meeting you Phillipuu, I hope we are able to resolve this issue. I am going to refer you to XYZ services as discussed, and hopefully they will be able to support you from there. If you need further assistance, please feel free to make another appointment.
    "Thank you Dr Beskar".


    Medical Notes:
    Outpatients appoint - First meeting, Phillipuu (Phillippus) has expressed an interest in being referred as zir/ze. We discussed an ongoing issue ABC and I have referred them to XYZ services. I will follow this up in 2 months time but I have advised Phillipuu they can make an appointment at any time if they require further support."
    This would require frontal lobe development. Some people prefer to act on their underdeveloped feelings.
    Requesting suggestions for new sig.

    -><- GOGOGO GOGOGO WINLAND WINLAND ALL HAIL TECHNOVIKING!SCHUMACHER!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    WHY AM I NOT BEING PAID FOR THIS???

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  23. #53
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    As a clinician, the exchange would go something like this:

    Good to meet you, would you prefer to be called Phillippus?
    "Hello Dr Beskar, thank you for seeing me. Phillipuu if you don't mind. I do identify as zir/ze",
    That is okay Phillipuu, tell me what brought you to see me here today.
    *some time later*
    It has been a pleasure meeting you Phillipuu, I hope we are able to resolve this issue. I am going to refer you to XYZ services as discussed, and hopefully they will be able to support you from there. If you need further assistance, please feel free to make another appointment.
    "Thank you Dr Beskar".


    Medical Notes:
    Outpatients appoint - First meeting, Phillipuu (Phillippus) has expressed an interest in being referred as zir/ze. We discussed an ongoing issue ABC and I have referred them to XYZ services. I will follow this up in 2 months time but I have advised Phillipuu they can make an appointment at any time if they require further support."


    At no point during this interaction my personal views interfere with my line of work. I am not overly familiar with those gender-neutral terms (I prefer they/them) so they appear awkward and unwieldy, but they are recognised never-the-less. My personal views do not negatively affect my services at any time. At what point does I (the clinician) or the service user (Phillipuu) have any issue with this interaction?

    The example of the Dr was similarly instructed as such. You are entitled to your views, but follow process/procedure. That is to respect the individuals wishes and have a duty of care. That Doctor failed in the fundamental basics of what it means to be a Doctor in delivering Person-Centred Care. No wonder he was told he should consider early retirement because if he cannot do the basics... do you really trust him to have your best interests?

    In examples of abortion, as a Roman Catholic you may have an issue with it. You recognise that you are unable not to impose your views, professionally, it would be best to state to the patient "I am a Roman Catholic, but we do have specialist services to advise you", and you would actively sign-post the individual to another clinician. Even then, you could still provide basic information on Abortion without going: "You will go to Hell and burn in everlasting fire, sinner!".


    For you maybe. But this is something actively discussed since day one in Healthcare and continually throughout.
    OK - now rewind.

    "Good to meet you, would you prefer to be called Phillip?
    "Hello Beskar Medicus, thank you for seeing me. Phillippus if you don't mind. I do identify as Romanus."

    Let's assume I'm not a total jerk and deliver that in English and not Latin. What would you write in the notes? Especially if I tell you that my problem is lack of sleep due to stress and living in the modern "barbarian" world?

    What if I tell you identify as the Second Coming of Christ (I don't, to be clear)?

    How would a doctor who trained 30 years ago have perceived those three patients?

    All delusional?

    Is there any practical difference between me identifying as a member of a dead culture and me identifying as a gender that has only come to be articulated in the last few years thanks to the Internet?
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  24. #54
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    The short answer: Mental State Examination.

    Treat the underlying cause if there is an issue. For example, the second coming self-identity might be disclosed by someone who presents with mania. Similarly, treat the stress by building up the coping mechanisms the Roman is experiencing, as again, it could be secondary.

    Alternatively, it could be the Roman is simply eccentric with a fixation on the time period. If it is causing no harm, then best left alone.
    Last edited by Beskar; 07-17-2019 at 03:21.
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  25. #55
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I have a tendency to go back and re-edit posts for clarity when I notice errors. I recommend going back up to see the video link for example for the experiment.

    I have many female friends, they are taken in that regard.
    Also 'old fashioned' approach tends to lead to ghosting... the modern world we live in.

    I love the dutch honesty.
    I fear the point I was making has been lost on you.

    Dutch men are unromantic, blunt, expect all Dutch women to be utterly self-reliant because these men are so woke. Shockingly, some women like Romance. I'm suggesting there may be a market there.

    As to all the nice girls being taken, that's our age - I'm afraid - in a few years they'll start getting divorced though.

    More to it than that (obviously). The hypocrisy is utterly disgusting though.
    I don't need to say I find any culture of abuse to be abhorrent.
    This is a totally separate topic for another time - I will merely note that there are hypocrites and abusive people in all cultures.

    Forgive me for flipping this to make a point. You stated that you studied pagan morality, yes?
    "When you tell a Pagan that his morality is 'intriguing', you belittle it. It's not intriguing, it's important and if you can't see that it's not worth his time explaining his thunder bolts to you".
    See - here I could make a joke about your narrow philhellenic bias, but that might not land well, so I won't - it's only funny if you've read Cicero anyway.

    To point - I never said Pagan morality was "intriguing", I said I studied it. You also forget I used to be a Pagan, but that's besides the point. Frankly, most Western philosophy is either unintelligible without Plato and Aristotle, or worthless if it ignores them.

    Only idiots think they're smarter than Aristotle or Plato.

    Most people actually like having an active interest being taken in them. They understand you are different, but the fact you are willing to understand them more makes them proud to show off their achievements. Intellectual curiosity is not a bad thing. People practice exchange of faiths where for example a Christian and Muslim may inform each other more about their religions to have better understanding.
    In your eyes, are they belittling and insulting each-other? If not, why not, because in the why not, you will be explaining why I am not belittling being interested to learn more about Cornish identity.

    As for modification.. well... if they are the violent brutes you describe them as, Cornish and Devonians face to face pitchforks to the hand. They require some mediation and peace-making. Or are you against peace-making? Are Cornish people defined by their hatred of the Devonians that if they were friendly, they would cease to exist? if so, I hope they don't make peace soon, I have a soft-spot for Cornish Ice-creams... the pastries are pretty okay too.
    Pastries or Pasties? Do you mean a Cornish Pasty (side crimp) or Devon one (top crimp)?

    These are all important questions to local people, the point I am making and you are deliberately ignoring is that they would not thank you for making light of this.

    That everyone wished you well, including your 'worst enemy' ?
    Honesty, maybe you should re-evaluate things and realise 'maybe they are not actually that bad'.
    How about "It was a pointless and vain expression of my own pride, intolerance and moral weakness that I was unable to at least tolerate you."?

    Sadly, your leaving was your own decision.
    I am far from impossible. Any serious thinking about that would easily dispel that notion. I would contend it was closer to home, but I have a feeling you will take more slight from that then I ever intend.
    Yes, we've established I feel terrible. Are you aware you are twisting the knife here? Probably not. This is an excellent example of you continuing to pursue a topic the other party clearly finds distressing and has no further desire to discuss.

    The bit where you were supposed to stop is the bit where I told you I never came back and read the thread I posted when I left - i.e. - "I have no desire to revisit the past, I cannot change it and I do not wish to dwell."

    Yet here we are, still, twist, twist.

    I am my own worst critic. There is an element of guilt when it comes to some behaviours, there is also anger, there is disappointment, there is a range of various emotions.
    You should voice more of that criticism, then.

    The slippery-slope example, not you.
    There is a distinction there, even if you don't recognise it.

    They are separate entities to yourself, even if related. If you still, I cannot help you other than point it out then hope you can tolerable it if you are unable to move from your position. I don't intend that to be rude but I cannot control your offence.
    Ah, no, there is no distinction, really.

    https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/ridicule

    https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/mockery

    As the OED makes clear, they mean the same thing - the origin is different, the former is from modern French, the later from Middle English via Old French.

    You and I are not friends, therefore any attempt made by you to engage in which might by called "gentle mockery" will not be well received. This is because I do not consider you to be very funny, among other reasons.

    I don't make jokes at your expense and expect you to laugh, do I? The fault here is your failure to modify your tone based on your audience. Such a failure implies you find my position contemptible - as does your response above "well, if you want to be offended I can't stop you". Given your over-inflated impression of my "hatred" for you I would have thought that mocking or ridicule would be something you would actively avoid if you were sincere about "burying the hatchet."

    If you follow your usual pattern at this point you'll probably deploy something other than the OED or refer to a difference in an alternative meaning and try to argue I'm wrong about the two words. I'm not - and I have the pieces of parchment and the grey hairs to demonstrate I've spent years studying the development of the English language and the use of specific words in specific contexts.

    In conclusion, there is no material difference between "mockery" and "ridicule" and it is rude to mock those with whom you do not share a relationship based on trust and mutual respect - we have no such relationship, as you have demonstrated.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  26. #56
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Frankly, most Western philosophy is either unintelligible without Plato and Aristotle, or worthless if it ignores them.
    That's because the greatest minds of philosophy wrote in synthetic languages (Old Greek, German, Russian). An arbitrary claim, but ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  27. #57
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    That's because the greatest minds of philosophy wrote in synthetic languages (Old Greek, German, Russian). An arbitrary claim, but ...
    No, they just wrote in Greek, sometimes Latin.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  28. #58
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    No, they just wrote in Greek, sometimes Latin.
    I mean later than Plato or Aristotle. Greek and Latin were in use in the Middle Ages, I speak of XVIII and later centuries philosophers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  29. #59
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Yes, we've established I feel terrible. Are you aware you are twisting the knife here?
    Wasn't my intent. I apologise.

    You should voice more of that criticism, then.
    I would contend posting my internal monologues would not satisfy. But I think evidence would be my notorious habit of constantly editing my own posts. Removing, addition, changing, removing those, etc. Apparently, I have been told that I personally make up a significant portion of the Org's edit history.

    ...If you follow your usual pattern at this point you'll probably...[etc]
    In conclusion, there is no material difference between "mockery" and "ridicule" ...[etc]
    Unfortunately, I wasn't contending the difference of words. I was contending I wasn't aiming the mockery/ridicule at your personally, but throwing it into the argument you were making. The concept being the absurd result which is provided would cause a review of the argument. I was trying different between the two (yourself, the argument). However, I failed.
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  30. #60
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I mean later than Plato or Aristotle. Greek and Latin were in use in the Middle Ages, I speak of XVIII and later centuries philosophers.
    I'm sorry, you lost me with "later philosophers".

    Seriously though, as far as I can tell the entire last hundred years has been a re-tread and up until the 18th Century anything worthwhile WAS written in Latin or Greek - so as to be intelligible to the widest number of people.

    Which is not to say the "largest".
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


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