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Thread: It was 200 years ago today....

  1. #1
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default It was 200 years ago today....

    Today is the 200th anniversary of the Peterloo massacre that happened in my home town of Manchester. The workers demanded the right to vote and were hacked down by the local Yeomanry on the orders of the local Magistrate trying to arrest the leaders.

    The Peterloo Massacre took place at St Peter's Field, Manchester, Lancashire, England on Monday 16 August 1819 when cavalry charged into a crowd of 60,000–80,000 who had gathered to demand the reform of parliamentary representation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre



    Seems like nothing really changes. After all Brexit has shone a light on the anti-democratic nature of our great and good.

    The site was built over later in the 19th century. The Free Trade Hall, now sadly a hotel. As an aside I saw the Sex Pistols there in '76 I also saw many other bands there. Sparks, Cockney Rebel, Be-Bop Deluxe, Blondie, Split Enz.. Queen, Doctor Feelgood to name but a few.

    My old school used to hold it's annual speech day there back in the '70s.

    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...boys&FORM=IGRE

    Mancunians are acutely aware of this incident, I remember adults talking about this tragedy when I was a nipper.

    Anyroad I just thought I'd share this with my fellow Orgers.
    Last edited by InsaneApache; 08-16-2019 at 15:41.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    200 years eh? Doesn't time fly. Luckily as a "white on white" massacre it is something we needn't really concern ourselves about. It never cropped up when I was at school.

    Democracy is a pressure valve to release discontent. The exact rules on selecting the rulers might have the trappings of allowing the populace to play, but this is limited as far as humanly possible with the Civil Service as a backstop to slow down any chance that might creep through.

    After religion stopped being the major driver, money has replaced it as the only thing that really matters - and as then as is the case now the poor unwashed are at best a necessary evil and at worst a mistake that needs to be spayed.

    Thoughts and prayers.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    I actually DID learn about this in school as an important event.

    We have certainly done worse things since, but still.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Today is the 200th anniversary of the Peterloo massacre that happened in my home town of Manchester. The workers demanded the right to vote and were hacked down by the local Yeomanry on the orders of the local Magistrate trying to arrest the leaders.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterloo_Massacre



    Seems like nothing really changes. After all Brexit has shone a light on the anti-democratic nature of our great and good.

    The site was built over later in the 19th century. The Free Trade Hall, now sadly a hotel. As an aside I saw the Sex Pistols there in '76 I also saw many other bands there. Sparks, Cockney Rebel, Be-Bop Deluxe, Blondie, Split Enz.. Queen, Doctor Feelgood to name but a few.

    My old school used to hold it's annual speech day there back in the '70s.

    https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...boys&FORM=IGRE

    Mancunians are acutely aware of this incident, I remember adults talking about this tragedy when I was a nipper.

    Anyroad I just thought I'd share this with my fellow Orgers.
    Do you think that Boris Johnson is doing good work?

  5. #5
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    Pan, could you not be an arse?

    Please?

    You're being an arse.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  6. #6
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Pan, could you not be an arse?

    Please?

    You're being an arse.
    It's IA's choice to link history with current events, alluding to some crime against democracy that's clearly (although he tries to maintain plausible deniability by not openly saying it) opposition to Brexit. I'm talking about current events too, but with a more general link to history.

    Dominic Grieve has accused the PM Boris Johnson of instigating threats to him (Grieve) with his rhetoric. This is part of a general revival of far right violence that has been emboldened by Brexit, and if you want to be more particular, by parties and individuals supporting Brexit that IA thinks are good chaps. There's Jo Cox of course, who was murdered because she opposed Brexit. And yesterday, Owen Jones, a leftist journalist, was singled out for a beating by a group who had made a beeline for him. IA claims to dislike the anti-democracy that he sees opposition to Brexit to be. But is it part of democracy to promote physical violence against one's opponents? IA thinks Nigel Farage is a good fellow, but then disclaims part of his far right agenda. IIRC last time there was a general issue with the far right, when the time came to sort out the bill, fellow travellers didn't get to pick and choose which of their leaders' agenda they got to identify with. Only those who opposed throughout got a clean bill of health.

    If you want to hold up Peterloo as part of the journey towards democracy, you should accept the rest of the narrative that goes with it. The establishment couldn't do something simply because it's within their power; they had a responsibility to go with that power. Something that the PM at the time of Peterloo, the Duke of Wellington (hence the naming of the incident), was quite insistent on, despite his own deep conservatism. The franchise was eventually widened, but along with the widening of the franchise came the education of the masses, to make democracy a practical path. And much of that universal education involves the inculcation of respect for British history and the need for rationality, hence Whig history and the promotion of sciences.

    There's my general historical response to IA's veiled political comment. Would you prefer IA was left to make his comment without a counter?

  7. #7
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    Would you prefer IA was left to make his comment without a counter?
    FFS give it a rest. You're obsessed.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    FFS give it a rest. You're obsessed.
    Can you explain this line, and why you included it in the OP?

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Seems like nothing really changes. After all Brexit has shone a light on the anti-democratic nature of our great and good.
    The OP is yours. You chose to make the thread with that OP. You weren't responding to anyone as it was the OP, so what you wrote is entirely your choice. Can you explain what you mean by the above, and why you included it in a piece about Peterloo?

  9. #9
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    IA simply indicated that Brexit has revealed the ineptitude and cowardice of our political class.

    It doesn't matter if you voted Leave or Remain, there is plenty to condemn on both sides, from May's utter servility, to the various Tories manoeuvring for advantage, to Corbyn willing to support any outcome that sees him become Prime Minister.

    Brexit is a symptom of our political malaise, not a cause.

    The Brexit negotiations thread is supposed to be about the various negotiations and the positions of the various sides, not issuing personal attacks against other forum members.

    This thread is clearly about Peterloo and the fact that in the intervening 200 years the voices of the masses have been too often ignored, not issuing personal attacks against other forum members.

    If you want to start a thread about Boris Johnson, go ahead. If you want to start a thread about Farage, and the Brexit Party, and the unofficial Leave Campaign, go ahead.

    Stop hijacking these threads with personal attacks against people you disagree with.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  10. #10
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    IA simply indicated that Brexit has revealed the ineptitude and cowardice of our political class.

    It doesn't matter if you voted Leave or Remain, there is plenty to condemn on both sides, from May's utter servility, to the various Tories manoeuvring for advantage, to Corbyn willing to support any outcome that sees him become Prime Minister.

    Brexit is a symptom of our political malaise, not a cause.

    The Brexit negotiations thread is supposed to be about the various negotiations and the positions of the various sides, not issuing personal attacks against other forum members.

    This thread is clearly about Peterloo and the fact that in the intervening 200 years the voices of the masses have been too often ignored, not issuing personal attacks against other forum members.

    If you want to start a thread about Boris Johnson, go ahead. If you want to start a thread about Farage, and the Brexit Party, and the unofficial Leave Campaign, go ahead.

    Stop hijacking these threads with personal attacks against people you disagree with.
    Is that what IA said? I was asking him to clarify what he meant with that insinuation, only for him to evade it again.

    Democracy isn't just putting a cross in a box. It's also respect for the constitution, written or custom. If Peterloo was a case of violence against the people that's an abuse of the constitution (non-democratic back then), then what would you call violence against political figures in a political debate? Is it democratic if it's on the side of the majority? Is it politics when one side incites physical violence against the other? That's what Grieve is accusing Johnson of. That's what happened to Jo Cox, and now Owen Jones.

    Remember, I didn't make the initial reference to current events. IA did. And I'm asking him to explain what he meant by the reference.

  11. #11
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    Liberty or Death.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  12. #12
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Is that what IA said? I was asking him to clarify what he meant with that insinuation, only for him to evade it again.

    Democracy isn't just putting a cross in a box. It's also respect for the constitution, written or custom. If Peterloo was a case of violence against the people that's an abuse of the constitution (non-democratic back then), then what would you call violence against political figures in a political debate? Is it democratic if it's on the side of the majority? Is it politics when one side incites physical violence against the other? That's what Grieve is accusing Johnson of. That's what happened to Jo Cox, and now Owen Jones.

    Remember, I didn't make the initial reference to current events. IA did. And I'm asking him to explain what he meant by the reference.
    You're playing the man not the ball, which is why he's ignoring you.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    You're playing the man not the ball, which is why he's ignoring you.
    He's never elaborated on his Brexit beliefs, except to parrot Cummings's social media memes. Brexit and Corbyn use the same methods to reinforce their respective cults. Animal Farm should be required reading in schools.

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    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Can you explain this line, and why you included it in the OP?
    The rhetoric he uses hasn't quite degenerated to grunting and throwing feces, but it is getting close.
    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Liberty or Death.
    No explanation, no context, no purpose. Just something else to be upset about. Gotta ride that rage train.
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  15. #15
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    The rhetoric he uses hasn't quite degenerated to grunting and throwing feces, but it is getting close.

    No explanation, no context, no purpose. Just something else to be upset about. Gotta ride that rage train.
    You know, after a decade and a half I still sometimes have to remind people that my religious beliefs do not conflict with a belief in the theory of evolution. It seems no matter how often I repeat myself people still fall back on the same lazy assumptions that X must believe Y.

    You get tired of repeating yourself.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    The aftermath...



    Blimey a cover up....
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  17. #17

    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    Nice thread on Peterloo from labor historian Erik Loomis:

    This Day in Labor History: August 16, 1819. British cavalry massacre workers outside Manchester. The Peterloo Massacre is one of the signature early events of resistance to capitalism in our history, so let's talk about it!

    In the early 19th century, democratic participation was nearly non-existent in Britain. That nation had resisted the move toward democracy spawned out of the American Revolution and French Revolution, even as those nations were also dealing with the implications of it.
    Meanwhile, after the final defeat of Napoleon in 1815, Britain fell into an economic depression. Unemployment rose and hordes of the new industrial workers lost their jobs and had nowhere to go.
    By 1819, industry was deeply affected at the same time that food prices had risen dramatically. The region’s textile mills, the core of the Industrial Revolution, had a brief boom after the war ended, but that quickly collapsed.
    Free-market industrialists said there was nothing they could do but lay people off and cut wages. At the same time, they publicly opposed any form of public relief for the urban poor.
    Moreover, the British government instituted the first Corn Law, which imposed tariffs on imported grain, creating food shortages and near-famine conditions for the poor, particularly in the aftermath of the legendary 1816 summer that never happened after Mount Tambora exploded.
    Class-based organizing began in 1817 with a movement called the Blanketeers.
    They started in Manchester that March, hoping to spawn a march of textile weavers to London to present petitions demanding that the government take steps to improve the cotton trade so they could go back to work.
    Magistrates responded by reading the marchers the Riot Act and arresting 27 of them. Organizing for both political and economic reforms continued. Henry Hunt became the leader of this new movement.
    Hunt became the most famous popular radical of his day, a sort of Eugene Debs for the early 19th century, promoting broad-based political and economic reforms.
    He argued for universal male suffrage and Parliament held every year, without the rotten boroughs that ensured government stayed in the hands of conservatives.
    He was a big believer in mass rallies, believing that if large enough crowds gathered, it would place pressure on government to transform without having to engage in bloody insurrection.
    For the British elite, these combined political and economic protests meant Jacobinism had crossed the Channel. Hunt began leading mass rallies in Manchester. In January 1819, one rally attracted 10,000 people.
    Manchester’s leaders wrote to London, fearing a general insurrection and complaining of their lack of power to shut down the rallies or repress the press reporting on these conditions and encouraging action.
    When Hunt decided to lead a mass rally on August 9 in St. Peter’s Fields in Manchester, the police attempted to intervene. Declaring it illegal preemptively, Hunt and the other leaders delayed it for a week, but were determined to hold the meeting.
    When that rally achieved an unprecedented crowd of 60,000, the police acted. As far as is known, the 60,000 protestors were completely unarmed, as Hunt and others hoped to preempt intervention by banning weapons.
    They also encouraged workers to wear their Sunday best clothing to present an atmosphere of respectability. Groups carried banners with slogans such as “No Corn Laws” and “Vote by Ballot.”
    There was no violence from the marchers reported. The magistrates however ordered the speakers arrested. The yeomanry ordered to arrest the speakers were untrained and they panicked.
    Moreover, the head of the British army in the area figured that not much would happen at the rally and instead decided to go see his horses race nearby. But instead of arresting the speakers, they unsheathed their swords and charged into the crowd.
    The magistrates then ordered the 15th Hussars and Cheshire Volunteers to assist and a general bloodbath ensued. The Hussars especially were just seeking to kill as many people as they could.
    It’s surprising that only 15 or so people were killed, especially given the injury totals of probably over 500. Among the dead were Mary Heys, a pregnant mother of six run down by the charging horses, causing the baby to begin birthing. She died in childbirth.
    Sarah Jones, a mother of seven, was killed by being beaten in the head. John Ashton was one of the movement’s political leaders who carried a banner reading “Taxation without representation is unjust and tyrannical. NO CORN LAWS.” He was sabred and then trampled.
    Many of the wounded actually hid their injuries in order to escape arrest and prosecution. Riots then occurred in Manchester and nearby towns for the rest of the day, but all the violence ended a few days later, although one constable was killed by a mob on August 18.
    The British government responded by cracking down on the political reform. It expressed its support for the massacre. Conservatives feared uprisings around the country. It passed the Six Acts that clamped down on public meetings, newspaper opposition, and gun ownership.
    Hunt was not hurt in the protest although his hat was stabbed through. In 1820, Hunt was convicted on a charge of sedition for his radical views and spent two years in prison. While there, he wrote a book exposing the horrible conditions of the prison.
    Eventually, Hunt’s movement and the sacrifice of the dead at Peterloo led to the parliamentary reforms of 1832. It would take much more than that to fix the poverty of the British working class.
    The Corn Laws were not eliminated until 1846, when the Irish famine managed to convince enough lawmakers that they should do something to alleviate it that they once again allowed for cheap imported grain. Conservatives were, of course, outraged.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    200 years eh? Doesn't time fly. Luckily as a "white on white" massacre it is something we needn't really concern ourselves about. It never cropped up when I was at school.

    Democracy is a pressure valve to release discontent. The exact rules on selecting the rulers might have the trappings of allowing the populace to play, but this is limited as far as humanly possible with the Civil Service as a backstop to slow down any chance that might creep through.

    After religion stopped being the major driver, money has replaced it as the only thing that really matters - and as then as is the case now the poor unwashed are at best a necessary evil and at worst a mistake that needs to be spayed.

    Thoughts and prayers.

    It's odd that you would finger the "civil service" as stymieing the popular will. Hint: The Cossacks work for the czar.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Nice thread on Peterloo from labor historian Erik Loomis:






    It's odd that you would finger the "civil service" as stymieing the popular will. Hint: The Cossacks work for the czar.
    The Cossacks did. They were a minority that could (and were) got rid of when they were no longer useful. The Civil Service mainly reports to itself and trying to reform it is extremely difficult - since who but they who have the information.

    And I am not saying that stymieing the popular will is of itself a bad thing - most people are idiots.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
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    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  19. #19

    Default Re: It was 200 years ago today....

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    The Cossacks did. They were a minority that could (and were) got rid of when they were no longer useful. The Civil Service mainly reports to itself and trying to reform it is extremely difficult - since who but they who have the information.

    And I am not saying that stymieing the popular will is of itself a bad thing - most people are idiots.

    Civil services are not single institutions with defined interests like a trade union or a farmers' association or a retirees' association, they are sets of institutions and communication networks (e.g. a national security establishment). Everyone who's not a Trump-tier idiot in politics knows this and understand the need to establish or make use of parallel communication and information networks to learn what is "really" going on. Every layer of bureaucracy distorts information, less from active agenda than from passive bias, or even perceptions of the chief's own bias. Moreover there is the natural attenuating effect of communication across any large impersonal organization, which has never been fully overcome. Anyone of experience or competence is aware of these problems and moves to work around them as soon as they take office. Those who have well-formed desires find ways to lead civil services in the direction they wish. A Trump type is both easy and difficult for a civil service, easy because easy to manipulate and misinform in the mold of cretinous hereditary rulers, hard because he's actively and systematically working to dismantle it as he and his incompetent lackeys* try to make off with as much government largess as they can before the ship sinks. The latter shows how fragile civil services can be in the face of hostile forces of various provenance and objective, exactly why developed countries have strived over time to professionalize them and safeguard them from subversion.

    People are not idiots for wanting economic security and political participation per se. But it's not the civil service that generally presents an obstacle to such reform. Think about what reforms are proposed, who proposes them, what implications these proposals have for stakeholders, at what point in the process they stumble, and what reforms ultimately succeed. I haven't seen that many episodes, but a show like Yes Minister is ultimately naive in presenting decision-making on the parameters of politics as a product of rooms filled with bureaucrats and elected officials. The elephant is not in the room, but its shadow certainly is.


    *With the exception of individuals like Stephen Miller and Bill Barr, who are not incompetent and thus all the more dangerous for their ideological (as opposed to merely corrupt) stakes
    Last edited by Montmorency; 08-26-2019 at 22:10.
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