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Thread: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

  1. #61
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    You should consider that I had very good reason for not liking what you said, and that you should internalize it.

    If you had merely offered that you thought she had showed poor judgement in handling the controversy, and your opinion of her political abilities was diminished, it would have been a valid opinion. I would have disagreed on the grounds of her demonstrated campaigning skill and adaptiveness in 2019, but the disagreement would have been so banal as to not warrant arguing over.

    Instead, you said that Warren even maintaining this identity was shameless pandering and part of a race to the bottom, which is the rhetorical and logical equivalent of throwing a flaming sack of excrement. Of course that's shameful, what's wrong with you?

    You thankfully seem to have withdrawn this line, but it's one of the worst I've seen you post.
    I still think her public expression of native identity is somewhat cynical. The "I wanted to be invited to a luncheon" line doesn't wash with me unless you want to believe she's exceptionally naive.

    Maybe she is though, the more I read about this the more intellectually incoherent it is. The biggest miss-step would seem to be the DNA test because that, to my understanding, imposes a White Germanic standard on Native American Tribal membership.

    Well, yes?
    Oh, so as a nation you ARE completely lacking in self awareness?

    So?
    She wasn't working class - she was poor. There's a difference, I should know.

    Yes, if you excise events from all context and substitute a different arrangement anything is possible.
    Or I could include my legendary ancestor Tord in my university Bio. I don't though - because that would be stupid. Tord is merely a subject for polite conversation over dinner.

    So if she hadn't been criticized for something she wouldn't have adjusted her behavior? That's not shocking.
    You don't imagine that eventuality would be somewhat scandalous? I do.

    I fear your overall perspective on Warren is an unreasonable and prejudicial one, leading to your fixation to the exclusion of facts.

    Referring to the above, this doesn't even bear debating because the facts will develop in the short-term, over the next year. Either she doesn't win nomination and it's irrelevant, or she does and her judgement will be on full exercise for review.
    Exclusion of what facts? You tried to blame all of this on Trump when it actually started years ago - which is a pretty important fact.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  2. #62
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Read your own link, they've done it before in 2001, and the Democrats walked out in 1971, 1995, and 2001. This is not a watershed moment and the act isnt a republican monopoly, at all.

    Only interesting thing is the "come take it" revolutionary rhetoric, and that is hardly a new thing in american politics, even on the century scale.
    Monty addressed this better than I could.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  3. #63
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Oof. Your self deprecation cuts far deeper than I would be willing to on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Yes and no. Easiest to defeat would be Joe because he's not liked by the whole party; Sanders would be an automatic loss for Trump BUT since his health scare this is very unlikely to get to the nomination.

    Warren on the other hand has all the attributes, charm and power to get to the job. However it depends on her ability to withstand politics.
    I disagree, a suprise to everyone I am sure.

    Biden and Sanders are at an advantage over Warren for the simple fact they have not far to move from thier primary to thier electoral strategies; the former did not indulge much relative to the majority of the candidates and the latter is a true believer who will plant his feet and tell the world "no, you move". Warren dived head first into the worst excesses of the democratic fringe: indulging the prejudices of race, sex, class and origin, pinning her flag to every bad mast of policy and legislation put to the country in the last year.

    The problem is for most of it she's an ingenuine, she has the same stink of cynicism around her that hillary did, the cherokee blood issue is merely the most visible example. It's worst of two worlds, true believers are gonna worry she'll U-turn while the moderates are gonna worry she wont. There's plenty of ammunition for both arguments; the warren of the 2000's is markedly different to the one of the 2010's, plenty of footage to stoke both sides' fears.

    I would agree a major issue would be her political capability, being easily baited is a bad thing when your opponent is an expert at anger tactics and she's prone to trouble when derailed.
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  4. #64

    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Looking further into Oregon walkouts, I found something interesting that the other timeline missed.

    The 2019 walkouts seemed a watershed in terms of: an opposition preventing a (super)majority and unified government from governing at all, denying all major legislation; partisans threatening political violence to coerce capitulation.

    In the former, I see that in fact February 2016 was a prior milestone, at least in concept. The Democrats in 2016 also had a Senate supermajority of 18, and the Republicans also walked out in an attempt to block multiple new pieces of legislation, including another environment/climate bill (re: utilities rates regulation). However, the walkout only lasted an evening and beyond delaying proceedings (as with their other tactic of forcing all bill texts to be read aloud on the floor) as far as I can tell did not actually prevent multiple laws from leaving the legislature (as in 2019).

    Looking afield, supermajority quorum requirements (where they exist) for the most part have been taken advantage of by minority parties during redistricting processes to try to secure more favorable boundaries. The 2001 Oregon walkout was in this mold but something of an anomaly because the Republicans controlled the legislature but the Democrats had the governorship and secretary of state; the Democrats walked out to prevent legislature Republicans from bypassing the governor's veto through the contested procedural gimmick of calling the redistricting a resolution instead of a bill (had it gone as Republicans wanted there would have been a court case but ultimately the redistricting defaulted to the Secretary of State). Searching contemporary American history for an instance of a walkout with the primary objective of standing athwart the government's legislative agenda I could find only the 2011 Wisconsin and Indiana walkouts, which saw limited success (they delayed some anti-union/labor legislation) for which state Democrats suffered heavily - or at least, it didn't help them, nor did it avert subsequent extreme gerrymandering in Wisconsin. Therefore in this regard the 2019 Oregon walkouts were not unique as an agenda denial strategy, albeit they were stunning and likely unprecedented for their relative success in mostly stymieing the majority's agenda.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    Over here, the main director is Dominic Cummings, currently chief of staff of the PM Boris Johnson. Who are the personnel on the American side?
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Movement Conservatism Thought Leaders:
    To comment further on this, I was just throwing out some names on the top of my head at first. Pat Buchanan is a big one. Another one within the party and activist infrastructure itself would be Grover Norquist. But now I wonder if these names aren't too 'legacy.' They would have seemed more appropriate to list in 2015. Columnists like French and Dreher I perhaps shouldn't have mentioned at all because they've never had much of an audience, I believe, outside upper-middle class people online. I bet more liberals read them than "ordinary" conservatives. In this day and age you've got more Internet-famous types like Ben Shapiro and Charlie Kirk who are sometimes feted like some kind of new wave, but don't do much besides monetizing "own the libs" rhetoric on Youtube and social media. meanwhile, in the contemporary Republican party there just hasn't been much intellectual theorizing about government and society that has a meaningful influence on party doctrine. Currently it's really just Trump's whim, he is the doctrine. Going by audience size maybe we could keep figures like Rush Limbaugh and Tucker Carlson, who are technically ideologically independent of Trump, but that ideology is just a variant of Trumpism. There are no ideas as such within Trumpism - though even in the past conservative philosophy consisted largely of fig leaves for depravity - and no content beyond the irritable gestures of white grievance and masculine chauvinism.

    In the end one could list Trump and the other billionaires standing astride it all, the pretense of substance stripped away.

    As for someone like Dominic Cummings in the specific capacity of party/government strategist: Stephen Miller.



    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    I still think her public expression of native identity is somewhat cynical. The "I wanted to be invited to a luncheon" line doesn't wash with me unless you want to believe she's exceptionally naive.
    Throughout the 20th century, what was she cynically trying to accomplish by believing similar things to millions of other Americans? Or by not raising the matter in her political career until her opponents did?

    I could give you one interpretation though, that because Trump was attacking her for it she became reinforced in the notion that reacting to the attack on its own terms would look best to her constituents. She did double down harder in 2016-8 than during her first Senate race. Being seen to hit back at Donald Trump is something that motivates most Democratic politicians for its own sake, and by accounts she formulated her 'Native heritage' messaging privately and without recourse to her advisers. The result could then be painted as a toxic mixture of purblind personal slight and perceived political imperative.

    Maybe she is though, the more I read about this the more intellectually incoherent it is. The biggest miss-step would seem to be the DNA test because that, to my understanding, imposes a White Germanic standard on Native American Tribal membership.
    To reiterate she had a common naive racist image in her head of what being Native means, as demonstrated by her talk of "high cheekbones" and whatnot when the controversy was first instigated. Leftists tend to recognize white racism as inevitable; what we demand is the capacity to update one's worldview.

    She wasn't working class - she was poor. There's a difference, I should know.
    I mean, you and I don't know what her household income was at various junctures during her childhood, but "working class" is generally considered equivalent to "lower-middle class". That seems like a reasonable label, especially given that Warren described her upbringing as "on the ragged edge of the middle class."

    You don't imagine that eventuality would be somewhat scandalous? I do.
    Your alternate world seems to presuppose that this would not in fact be scandalous by dint of being accepted without controversy - which is trivial to say.

    Exclusion of what facts? You tried to blame all of this on Trump when it actually started years ago - which is a pretty important fact.
    I referred to him as provoking the DNA test, which he did explicitly issue a challenge for, and as returning the ancestry issue to public attention after years dormant by repeatedly attacking her for this starting in 2016 (Pocahontas etc.)

    You started interpreting Warren to exclusion of the details of the history of her identification and the details of its entry into and course through public consciousness. Moreover I don't think you took into account contradictory evidence (such as a review of her primary campaign) before concluding that her handling of the matter testified to a disqualifying lack of judgement (as opposed to a redressable mistake).

    Evidence includes her exceptionally well-organized campaign, her adept laundering of branding through policy, and her evident personal charisma as a retail politician (people like her when they see her and listen or talk to her). Here's an example of her more recent messaging in response to a Republican trying to smear her into a scandal.

    She would be at her weakest against Trump if he were on stage screaming 'Affirmative action Pocahontas!' and her response were 'Fact check:...' Trump is very predictable and it doesn't look like she'll be falling for that trap again.
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  5. #65
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Why do right wingers only care about racism, sexism, dishonesty and greed when they want to use it to point the finger?

    I don't understand how a group of people who reject fundamentally the idea of white male privilege can pick up the torch of anti racism for the 10 seconds it takes to make a dig, then go back to being racist and not giving a shit?
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Projection / deflection / whataboutism. There's many explanations for it but a lot of it has to do with a fundamental part of being a human - insecurity.

    For many people, and I'm not referring necessarily to race / ethnicity here, the pace at which the world changes is frightening and a lot of them reject advancement because it forces them in the unknown. It's not "safe" - so people retreat to their safe space (ironic) in order to have some sort of anchor in their life. Hence why you see a lot of angry, disenfranchised white male voters who are out of a job and vote apparently against their own interest.

    Extrapolate this to the working career of a person who's specialised in one thing - if he's not constantly advancing, he will be replaced by robots in 10 years tops. People are afraid so they will go with whatever is closest to what they know as familiar.
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    I could go into a diatribe about the warped definition the left have adopted for the word but I know it wont penetrate; Why are the right selective about "racism"? Because the right dont have to play by the left's rules to point out when the left breaks those rules.

    The left currently plays the moralistic preacher, denoucning people for not being "progressive" enough and the greatest counter to a preacher is to prove hypocracy. Getting people to ask "why should he dictate our lives when he doesnt live by his words?" robs the preacher of power. Ask our resident historian of the clergy what happens when preachers are publicly proven hypocrytes too often.

    I would have thought I wouldnt have to explain this; the left are most adept at pouncing on every "pray the gay away" preacher that turned out to be an avid wurst eater, its the same principle.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    I think what it comes down to is that the left values personal growth whereas the right - doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    For many people, and I'm not referring necessarily to race / ethnicity here, the pace at which the world changes is frightening and a lot of them reject advancement because it forces them in the unknown. It's not "safe" - so people retreat to their safe space (ironic) in order to have some sort of anchor in their life. Hence why you see a lot of angry, disenfranchised white male voters who are out of a job and vote apparently against their own interest.
    Importantly, it remains more common among economically-successful white male voters.
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    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Which is why it's sometimes baffling - you're economically successful, so the safe part is covered by money. You don't have that "scare" any more, at least on paper. Why is it that still it's insecurity driving things?
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Why would they feel secure in the prospect of the current democrats reclaiming power?

    They may have a degree of security in the status quo, but two of the top three prospective democrat presidents are proposing to effectively flip the table and much the rest of the party are cheering them on in thier excess. Sure the ones on the higher end of economic success may have the capacity to uproot themselves so as to avoid thier livelyhoods being reduced should the democrats enact that which they are currently championing but those are by no means the majority.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 10-16-2019 at 23:37.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Which is why it's sometimes baffling - you're economically successful, so the safe part is covered by money. You don't have that "scare" any more, at least on paper. Why is it that still it's insecurity driving things?
    Economically-successful conservatives - case in point the US Tea Party movement in the Republican Party from a decade ago - have few problems with government spending, taxation, and social programs in principle. They have a problem in their perception of who matters, and whom the government invests their money in.

    Basically, they resent the thought that the government would spend money on "undeserving" people, and the ones they deem undeserving tend to be poor, dark of skin, city-dwellers, women, etc. Someone who thinks the government spends too much money on "lazy n*****s and sp*cs" will vocally reject new taxation and programs despite otherwise stating a high opinion of programs like Social Security and Medicare that they know they personally benefit from.

    'It's the economy undesirables, stupid'

    Remember that conservatives from the middle class on up to the wealthy have always sided with fascists over social democrats when the time came to make a choice. If you are aware of a single exception I should like to hear it.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 10-16-2019 at 23:47.
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  12. #72
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Economically-successful conservatives - case in point the US Tea Party movement in the Republican Party from a decade ago - have few problems with government spending, taxation, and social programs in principle. They have a problem in their perception of who matters, and whom the government invests their money in.

    Basically, they resent the thought that the government would spend money on "undeserving" people, and the ones they deem undeserving tend to be poor, dark of skin, city-dwellers, women, etc. Someone who thinks the government spends too much money on "lazy n*****s and sp*cs" will vocally reject new taxation and programs despite otherwise stating a high opinion of programs like Social Security and Medicare that they know they personally benefit from.

    'It's the economy undesirables, stupid'

    Remember that conservatives from the middle class on up to the wealthy have always sided with fascists over social democrats when the time came to make a choice. If you are aware of a single exception I should like to hear it.
    Well, I like the trains to be on time when I am swinging through my Southern properties to acknowledge the obeisance of my peons, what can I say?
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    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Why would they feel secure in the prospect of the current democrats reclaiming power?

    They may have a degree of security in the status quo, but two of the top three prospective democrat presidents are proposing to effectively flip the table and much the rest of the party are cheering them on in thier excess. Sure the ones on the higher end of economic success may have the capacity to uproot themselves so as to avoid thier livelyhoods being reduced should the democrats enact that which they are currently championing but those are by no means the majority.
    Except America is literally the worst income equality in the developed world.

    In fact, I just found out today, which I find absolutely baffling and thought it was a hoax - you have to pay to file your taxes in an efficient manner, which is a government requirement. You can file your taxes for free on the IRS website only if you're making under a certain threshold, which is I think 66.000 USD a year income. This is so insanely absurd that I really understand why so many people are protesting against capitalism in the United States.

    https://www.propublica.org/article/i...taxes-for-free

    The IRS had signed a contract that said it “will not compete with the [Free File Alliance] in providing free, online tax return preparation and filing services to taxpayers.”
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Except America is literally the worst income equality in the developed world.

    In fact, I just found out today, which I find absolutely baffling and thought it was a hoax - you have to pay to file your taxes in an efficient manner, which is a government requirement. You can file your taxes for free on the IRS website only if you're making under a certain threshold, which is I think 66.000 USD a year income. This is so insanely absurd that I really understand why so many people are protesting against capitalism in the United States.

    https://www.propublica.org/article/i...taxes-for-free
    You can do your own taxes on paper and mail them off on February 3rd for the cost of two first-class postage stamps.

    The threshold you note makes electronic filing free for roughly half of all US households. Making the upper echelons pay to e-file while the lower income holders do not is another attempt to lessen the burden on those who are economically less fortunate by having those higher income earners pay for the services received by the other half -- a limited form of the wealth transfer for which you seemed to indicate a preference in your opening sentence.

    Besides, with the Withholding rules in place, the government already HAS the money, your federal return is about recovering your money the government is currently using without paying interest (roughly 2/3 of all tax returns generate refunds, not additional payments).

    But hey, we're over 100% GDP in debt, so all wealth is illusory anyway. Better stock up on unhybridized seed and ammo for the shotty.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    So why do you have companies that force the IRS to not give out a governmental service, which you already paid for by the way with your taxes, for free, at all tax brackets?
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    You can do your own taxes on paper and mail them off on February 3rd for the cost of two first-class postage stamps.

    The threshold you note makes electronic filing free for roughly half of all US households. Making the upper echelons pay to e-file while the lower income holders do not is another attempt to lessen the burden on those who are economically less fortunate by having those higher income earners pay for the services received by the other half -- a limited form of the wealth transfer for which you seemed to indicate a preference in your opening sentence.

    Besides, with the Withholding rules in place, the government already HAS the money, your federal return is about recovering your money the government is currently using without paying interest (roughly 2/3 of all tax returns generate refunds, not additional payments).

    But hey, we're over 100% GDP in debt, so all wealth is illusory anyway. Better stock up on unhybridized seed and ammo for the shotty.
    The correct redistributionary policy is to eliminate the need for the tax preparation industry outside of business administration, i.e. authorize the IRS to estimate your full liability and mail the documents for your verification.

    A lot of lower-income people don't know that you can adjust withholding on the W4, which leads to many of them overpaying taxes that they are not liable for and not recovering it in refunds. Government-1, working class-0.

    Meanwhile, the IRS audits poor people over EITC as much as it audits the 1%, because the Republicans have for a generation been progressively cutting their budget and the IRS literally admits it has no personnel and funding to do complicated audits so it has no choice but to do simpler EITC audits terrorizing the poor as a revenue-generating strategy. Government-0, rich people-1, poor people--1.

    I wonder what Phil would make of that last one.
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    So why do you have companies that force the IRS to not give out a governmental service, which you already paid for by the way with your taxes, for free, at all tax brackets?
    Because they paid the politicians to keep it that way.

    [damn double post]
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Except America is literally the worst income equality in the developed world.
    What you said is not a refutation to what I said.
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    What you said is not a refutation to what I said.
    It gives you an economic explanation of why people clamor so much for Democrat policies, particularly those of Bernie Sanders.

    When even government services like the tax filings, which should be something free because why am I paying my taxes then, are taken up by the private enterprise, that's why you have such strong support for Democratic policies. Also on the topic of healthcare - another strong Democratic point which is at serious loggerheads with Republican voters - why does a simple appendictomy cost 40.000 USD? Insane.
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    I thought we were talking about the economically successful, to whome income inequality is a marginal concern at best in the face of seeing a marked drop in livelihood.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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  21. #81
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    We are talking about that, yes - but the rise in the people advocating for income equality far outstrips those who have a marginal concern.

    The issue at hand is that people with money in the USA are against bridging even the slightest gap between them and those who don't have, hence why the capitalistic anger.
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  22. #82

    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    We are talking about that, yes - but the rise in the people advocating for income equality far outstrips those who have a marginal concern.

    The issue at hand is that people with money in the USA are against bridging even the slightest gap between them and those who don't have, hence why the capitalistic anger.
    Is it time to point out that the highest earners pay the lowest effective total tax rate now? Not even the notorious 1% mind you, but the very richest billionaires.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Not even Sanders' 8% wealth tax poses any threat to the livelihoods of the affluent, only to their relative power.

    (Here's the full graphic history, in video.)

    EDIT: I thought I had linked the source.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 10-18-2019 at 01:01.
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  23. #83
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    I do applaud Sanders for actually putting out a tax idea that seeks to specifically redistribute wealth from the wealthy to those less wealthy. At least he has the courage to actually propose something in honest terms. Credit where it is due.


    I have argued numerous times on this forum that income taxes, especially as loop-holed and special-interest written as they are, do nothing aside from punish the middle class and discourage wealth accumulation among the working and middle class while doing nothing to tax the wealthy (whose putative incomes are gamed away in accounting slight of hand games unavailable to those without significant wealth).

    I am a flat taxer/'fair' taxer by inclination, which I know many of you are not, but the extant system is a cocking shock-up.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  24. #84

    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I do applaud Sanders for actually putting out a tax idea that seeks to specifically redistribute wealth from the wealthy to those less wealthy. At least he has the courage to actually propose something in honest terms. Credit where it is due.


    I have argued numerous times on this forum that income taxes, especially as loop-holed and special-interest written as they are, do nothing aside from punish the middle class and discourage wealth accumulation among the working and middle class while doing nothing to tax the wealthy (whose putative incomes are gamed away in accounting slight of hand games unavailable to those without significant wealth).

    I am a flat taxer/'fair' taxer by inclination, which I know many of you are not, but the extant system is a cocking shock-up.
    How is it that throughout the 20th century (well, since FDR) effective tax rates on the "1%" were much higher than they are now? Low effective tax rates, due to loopholes or whatever identifiable cause, are a choice, not an inevitability. One corporate tax solution, for example, would be to require issuance of non-voting shares to the government and calculate tax liability as the same common dividends due to typical shareholders. 20% corporate tax rate? Give the government 20% of the stock. No evading that one without simultaneously welching on the Friedman-approved ownership class. Sound good?

    It is not the government’s obligation to structure its tax law around corporate practices. It is the obligation of corporations to structure their practices around the law.
    Before Sanders' wealth tax Warren proposed a smaller 2/3% one, btw.
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  25. #85
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Here's a good piece on the tax burdens of various income levels -- it factors in fed, state, local, property, estate, etc..

    Link

    In 1913, the 1% had an effective tax rate of about 14% compared to the lower 50% income households rate of 6%. In 2013, a 36% rate was noted for the 1%, while the lower half rate was 24%. One could argue that the gap had increased "against" the rich by 50%, going from 8-12 points...

    I would, I suppose, reluctantly note that the comparative rates for 1% v lower 50% were a factor of 2.33 in 1913 but have shrunk to a factor of 1.5 in this millennium; or I could note that the effective taxes on the wealthy have not quite tripled whereas the taxes on the lower 50% households have fully quadrupled...but those interpolations wouldn't let me continue to think of myself as deserving of government largesse despite my affluence.

    Perhaps I should follow Idaho's line of thinking and disdain the lower 50% because of their melanin difference from me? If I just accept that I can never be anything but a bigot because I am white and not poor then this would all be so much easier. I can be trapped in someone else's label of me and pilloried forever. Beats thinking I suppose.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  26. #86

    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Hi everyone, ♪ look at this 'graph ♪, then look at the graph on total tax rates I posted above. Then think about how one factor depressing wage growth for a generation has been the skyrocketing of employer health-insurance premiums. Then knock together a tumbrel.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Also, read this massive expose (disclosure: too long for me) entitled "Welcome to Coffeyville, Kansas, where the judge has no law degree, debt collectors get a cut of the bail, and Americans are watching their lives — and liberty — disappear in the pursuit of medical debt collection." I can't tell you what to do then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Here's a good piece on the tax burdens of various income levels -- it factors in fed, state, local, property, estate, etc..
    Critically, the analysis I referenced factors not just the "1%" but the 0.01% - and the Slate article notes, "moreover, as Greenberg admits, tax rates on top 0.1 percent have fallen by about one-fifth since their 1950s heights" - and the very richest 400 households (0.00...1%); their effective tax rates are much diminished. It is convenient that Greenberg from the Slate article uses data from Saez & Zucman just as the new article I linked does, because it helps reinforce the same point. To say that the high marginal tax rates for earned income did not affect many people has little meaning, because as we see the people who were affected felt the full force of the high tax rates, paying the vast majority of their income in taxes. Now these tax rates do not exist, the number and proportion of households who would be affected by their existence is orders of magnitude greater, and the truly wealthy make off astonishingly well. What inferences do you draw from this information?

    Perhaps I should follow Idaho's line of thinking and disdain the lower 50% because of their melanin difference from me? If I just accept that I can never be anything but a bigot because I am white and not poor then this would all be so much easier. I can be trapped in someone else's label of me and pilloried forever. Beats thinking I suppose.
    Support redistributive policies? I don't see why you would treat this as some inscrutable mystery. From a rational perspective it's very little to ask, unless it gets to the tumbrels phase.
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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Hi everyone, ♪ look at this 'graph ♪, then look at the graph on total tax rates I posted above. Then think about how one factor depressing wage growth for a generation has been the skyrocketing of employer health-insurance premiums. Then knock together a tumbrel.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Labor-Taxes-and-Compulsory-Payments-as-Percent-of-Average-Wage-2.png 
Views:	12 
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ID:	22965
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Total Tax Rate Disparity.png 
Views:	8 
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ID:	22966

    Also, read this massive expose (disclosure: too long for me) entitled "Welcome to Coffeyville, Kansas, where the judge has no law degree, debt collectors get a cut of the bail, and Americans are watching their lives — and liberty — disappear in the pursuit of medical debt collection." I can't tell you what to do then.




    Critically, the analysis I referenced factors not just the "1%" but the 0.01% - and the Slate article notes, "moreover, as Greenberg admits, tax rates on top 0.1 percent have fallen by about one-fifth since their 1950s heights" - and the very richest 400 households (0.00...1%); their effective tax rates are much diminished. It is convenient that Greenberg from the Slate article uses data from Saez & Zucman just as the new article I linked does, because it helps reinforce the same point. To say that the high marginal tax rates for earned income did not affect many people has little meaning, because as we see the people who were affected felt the full force of the high tax rates, paying the vast majority of their income in taxes. Now these tax rates do not exist, the number and proportion of households who would be affected by their existence is orders of magnitude greater, and the truly wealthy make off astonishingly well. What inferences do you draw from this information?



    Support redistributive policies? I don't see why you would treat this as some inscrutable mystery. From a rational perspective it's very little to ask, unless it gets to the tumbrels phase.
    my last line or so were more of a jibe at Idaho's attitude than anything else.

    And our current tax system is horrid. In its current form, income ranging in the 51-90 percentile ranges all too often pay a higher rate than the portion above because of things like using losses to offset taxes etc. The whole system is rotten.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  28. #88

    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    my last line or so were more of a jibe at Idaho's attitude than anything else.

    And our current tax system is horrid. In its current form, income ranging in the 51-90 percentile ranges all too often pay a higher rate than the portion above because of things like using losses to offset taxes etc. The whole system is rotten.
    Since we're not delving here, I'll add another story on the theory that cumulative dozens of such stories will stir the intellect to contemplation. From the Equifax class-action lawsuit (non-Americans look it up): They stored sensitive personal information in unencrypted plaintext accessible from front-end portals. Sensitive data served over the web was also unencrypted. They used "admin" as a username and password.

    In a point for Sanders, he has called for eliminating these credit rating leeches and replacing them with a public credit registry - as well as making it unlawful to use credit scores as a discriminatory criterion in employment, insurance, and rental housing. Who can disagree on either?
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  29. #89
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    In 1913, the 1% had an effective tax rate of about 14% compared to the lower 50% income households rate of 6%. In 2013, a 36% rate was noted for the 1%, while the lower half rate was 24%. One could argue that the gap had increased "against" the rich by 50%, going from 8-12 points...
    One problem over here - tax loopholes.

    Loopholes are so widespread in the American fiscal code that you can effectively negate your own taxation by a significant margin if you go through the "company" route. A lot of CEOs forego salaries for PR (of course) but also for taxation purposes. Capital gains tax is encouraging top leaders who can go without the salary to ditch it completely.

    Furthermore, since I'm working closely with the financial industry, tax optimisation (as it's called) is widespread and EU nationals can use various fiscal havens like the United Kingdom (yes, the UK) to lower their tax rates significantly. How does 5-10% taxation on a 300-400.000 USD annual income sound?
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  30. #90
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    The correct redistributionary policy is to eliminate the need for the tax preparation industry outside of business administration, i.e. authorize the IRS to estimate your full liability and mail the documents for your verification.

    A lot of lower-income people don't know that you can adjust withholding on the W4, which leads to many of them overpaying taxes that they are not liable for and not recovering it in refunds. Government-1, working class-0.

    Meanwhile, the IRS audits poor people over EITC as much as it audits the 1%, because the Republicans have for a generation been progressively cutting their budget and the IRS literally admits it has no personnel and funding to do complicated audits so it has no choice but to do simpler EITC audits terrorizing the poor as a revenue-generating strategy. Government-0, rich people-1, poor people--1.

    I wonder what Phil would make of that last one.
    Everything about the US Government is insane - you took all the wrong lessons from two World wars.

    Here only the self-employed file their own taxes, which they do because they are operating as a business. If you think you've been over-taxed you can file you a change of tax code, at which point the Revenue will re-calculate and pay you the difference, with interest on anything from the previous tax-year.

    You're unlikely to be in the wrong tax code unless you change jobs, or work more than one job.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


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