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Thread: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

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    Default The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Might as well have a thread.

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-conten...ied09.2019.pdf
    https://www.lawfareblog.com/timeline...kraine-scandal
    (Note that this was not a transcript but a summary "memorandum" of a 30-minute call.)


    But again, this was being reported since as far back as April and Trump commits and repeats impeachable offenses on an ongoing basis. Do you masochists find this more entertaining than reading progressive Democrats' sweeping new antipoverty package?
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Better hope this goes nowhere, dont think the dems will survive giving trump a clinton boost.

    Not that they arent shaking themselves apart as it is.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Might as well have a thread.

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-conten...ied09.2019.pdf
    https://www.lawfareblog.com/timeline...kraine-scandal
    (Note that this was not a transcript but a summary "memorandum" of a 30-minute call.)


    But again, this was being reported since as far back as April and Trump commits and repeats impeachable offenses on an ongoing basis. Do you masochists find this more entertaining than reading progressive Democrats' sweeping new antipoverty package?
    I think someone forgot it was their turn to babysit Trump. I guess that it was their reasoning that no one takes him seriously, so he couldn't possibly do any harm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Better hope this goes nowhere, dont think the dems will survive giving trump a clinton boost.

    Not that they arent shaking themselves apart as it is.
    I like how you finally gave into the "showing it to the libtards" mentality. You can't get your stupid way, so the best way to deal with it is a protracted temper tantrum.
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    I think someone forgot it was their turn to babysit Trump. I guess that it was their reasoning that no one takes him seriously, so he couldn't possibly do any harm.
    No, it indicates that the old narrative of "adults in the room" mitigating Trump's impulses is now thoroughly bogus, if it was ever anything other than horsecrap. Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, apparently the Attorney General, and any number of other upper-level officials watched - at best passively watched along - as Trump engaged in this and other banana republic lawlessness. There is no White House, only Trump.

    I'm still upset over losing my other post.
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    I like how you finally gave into the "showing it to the libtards" mentality. You can't get your stupid way, so the best way to deal with it is a protracted temper tantrum.
    I like how you have remained determined to not react to what I have actually said but instead what you seem to want to believe I have said.

    Your side is doomed, I'm getting my way and I am gloating. No tantrum here.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 09-26-2019 at 04:53.
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    I like how you have remained determined to not react to what I have actually said but instead what you seem to want to believe I have said.
    It borders on "woohoo dem lebturds r gettin a likkin", so I didn't respond; there was nothing to respond to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Your side is doomed, I'm getting my way and I am gloating. No tantrum here.
    I would like to point out that "my side" wants things like global stability and standards ensuring sustainability, as well as general equality. Your side appears to include blond orangutans screaming about- you know what? I'm not sure anymore. Brexit would objectively weaken the UK and complicate the EU-US union, which would weaken both in terms of being able to counter the RF and PRC.

    If "your side" wants this, then I guess you are actively working against the interests of your country.
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Rudy Giuliani
    It is impossible that the whistle-blower is a hero and I’m not. And I will be the hero! These morons—when this is over, I will be the hero!
    Once my mayor, now someone about to have a closeup of their gaping eyes as they die in an anime.
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    I just gotta hope that the inquiry gets people from within the White House and forces them to corroborate the memo and whistle blower's report as well as perhaps the actual transcript that was sent to the more classified server. If the impeachment vote goes forward but on essentially party lines within the House I don't think the Republican Senators would dare break rank and give enough votes to remove POTUS from office.

    It'll be interesting if the WH tries to use executive privilege to protect itself from an Impeachment investigation. It shouldn't stand as there is precedent from previous impeachment trials but still, convention hasn't been the norm with Trump in office.

    I'll also hope that they do more closed door inquires if possible. While I'd like to see and hear the soundbites as well I'd much rather have the different committees and the people being questioned not working to get the right soundbite to add in the evening news or get a positive tweet from the president.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    The simple fact that Republicans are prepared to tolerate almost any amount of scandal to keep power means that this whole process is close to theatre.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    The simple fact that Republicans are prepared to tolerate almost any amount of scandal to keep power means that this whole process is close to theatre.

    Its what happens when the cry of wolf is sounded constantly for three years over worse scandals (ones that prove false positives more often than not by the by) without provoking this action. The less stalwart republicans have learned to suppress the instinct to preemptively condemn trump and now wait for confirmation of legitimacy of scandal before reacting.

    I'll be suprised if they can even get all of the non safe seat democrats to vote for it now the chips have fallen into yet another "kinda sorta if you shake your head and squint" issue.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 09-27-2019 at 11:49.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Its what happens when the cry of wolf is sounded constantly for three years without actually taking action. The less stalwart republicans have learned to suppress the instinct to preemptively condemn trump and now wait for confirmation of legitimacy of scandal before reacting.

    I'll be suprised if they can even get all of the non safe seat democrats to vote for it now.
    Indeed - to paraphrase Stalin - A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.

    I would imagine that the majority in the USA are numb from the sheer number of things that for most others would have led an individual to resign. Everyone is realising that all you have to do is live in the moment - don't let what you said slow you down and what, in fact, can stop you? Where previously even the whiff of a scandal would have led to a nomination to the Supreme Court be removed - why should that be the case? Is lying a crime? After all, who knows what the truth is?

    So it is all scandal. And equally all normal. I've seen people say the Muller report found nothing. In fact it found plenty but it was not the place to action - that is for Congress.

    I can well sympathise with the apathy - as long as the Senate is Republican, Trump will stay since they know Bill Clinton benefited from the whole process - as if screwing an intern and lying about it could be considered a "crime"!

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    The word scandal has become like a swear word, use it rarely with good cause the impact is immense, use it often over nothing and soon noone gives a .
    Last edited by Greyblades; 09-27-2019 at 11:57.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    The word you're looking for is "fascism." A scandal is an episode of wrongdoing. Trump and the Republican Party are dismantling the government.
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    "Fascism", Another word that has become meaningless by incessant misuse, along with "racism", "sexism", "homophobia", "xenophobia", "transphobia", "islamaphobia", "anti-semitism" and of course "impeachable".
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    "Fascism", Another word that has become meaningless by incessant misuse, along with "racism", "sexism", "homophobia", "xenophobia", "transphobia", "islamaphobia", "anti-semitism" and of course "impeachable".
    Here's another word: tyranny. In its classical definition, getting more and more like what's going on in the UK, perhaps not as far along in the US, but looking like a common MO of Bannonite politics.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Here's another word: tyranny. In its classical definition, getting more and more like what's going on in the UK, perhaps not as far along in the US, but looking like a common MO of Bannonite politics.
    How many days since the Supreme Court ruling overturned the Government and Parliament was reopened? How many times has Boris had his plans voted down?

    Just to be clear - who is the tyrant in the UK?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    How many days since the Supreme Court ruling overturned the Government and Parliament was reopened? How many times has Boris had his plans voted down?

    Just to be clear - who is the tyrant in the UK?

    We're seeing threats of violence from the right. Does that count towards the definition of tyranny?

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    We're seeing threats of violence from the right. Does that count towards the definition of tyranny?
    No... That's if anything anarchy.

    And how safe does a country have to be before a few posts online is viewed as tyranny?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    In this decade? Where some representatives's greatest concern while walking in the halls of the mighty is online trolling and harsh language?
    Last edited by Greyblades; 09-27-2019 at 17:53.
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    We're seeing threats of violence from the right. Does that count towards the definition of tyranny?
    I may actually go with rory and greymaids on this one. After what happened to the Leave Campaign after the referendum, I don't think anyone has any concrete plan to do anything except take the money and run away to Russia.
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    I agree that fascists reject the normal communicative function of language.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    I may actually go with rory and greymaids on this one. After what happened to the Leave Campaign after the referendum, I don't think anyone has any concrete plan to do anything except take the money and run away to Russia.
    I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread, but the point is that the politicians of one major American party, for the sake of unlimited political power and out of fear of their constituents, are willing to tolerate their president using his office for political gain and personal enrichment while ruthlessly violating the law and eliminating or suborning the career civil service in favor of party flunkies and personal loyalists. They support him and themselves by restricting the electoral access of the lower-class and non-white when not committing outright electoral fraud. It is the continuation of an explicit generational project to capture the institutions of government and it has been wildly successful. In other words, the entire right-wing of the most powerful country in the world is a criminal junta and a conspiracy to seize power.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 09-28-2019 at 00:20.
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    I'm honestly scared now at the lengths Trump will go to prevent losing.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    I'm honestly scared now at the lengths Trump will go to prevent losing.
    Are you still surprised? You shouldn't be.

    Here's a helpful heuristic: Whatever bad shit you see them doing at any given moment, it will necessarily, dialectically get worse because they haven't reached the logical conclusion at the confluence of their goals and methods.

    Please, please, remember, for now and for 10 years from now, if there's nothing else you will remember of our interactions: The worst-case scenario is the likeliest scenario.

    "There is no bottom" etc.
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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    I'm honestly scared now at the lengths Trump will go to prevent losing.
    Worry when you see a repeal of the two-term limitation pass one of the houses of Congress. All the sturm and drang Trump may care to deliver does not carry with a majority of the electorate, only his rabidly supportive 30%. I have no fears of a civil war or a race war and we are too aware of "wag the dog" conflicts as political tools to be snowed under by that (Note: Monty will likely assert that GWB's administration did just that in 2003 with the poorly reviewed (at best) evidence on Sadam Hussein's efforts at MDW; I would assert that that is one of the reasons WHY that card would be tough to play again right now).
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Worry when you see a repeal of the two-term limitation pass one of the houses of Congress. All the sturm and drang Trump may care to deliver does not carry with a majority of the electorate, only his rabidly supportive 30%. I have no fears of a civil war or a race war and we are too aware of "wag the dog" conflicts as political tools to be snowed under by that (Note: Monty will likely assert that GWB's administration did just that in 2003 with the poorly reviewed (at best) evidence on Sadam Hussein's efforts at MDW; I would assert that that is one of the reasons WHY that card would be tough to play again right now).
    This is such insane levels of cowardice masked as caution.

    The dude is clearly strong-arming other countries to influence our election in his favor. You say worry when Congress starts dismantling the Constitution? Jesus man, you might as well ask people to take a day off when the illegals are executed in the streets.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    You're edging on hysterical.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 10-06-2019 at 07:12.
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    You're edging on hysterical.
    I just understand the road this leads to, and you know where it goes as well.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  28. #28
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Support for impeachment increases, independents included, so I'm not sure that the failure to impeach Donald will harm the Democrats. An interesting perspective on the issue:


  29. #29
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    This is such insane levels of cowardice masked as caution.

    The dude is clearly strong-arming other countries to influence our election in his favor. You say worry when Congress starts dismantling the Constitution? Jesus man, you might as well ask people to take a day off when the illegals are executed in the streets.
    I said it that way because it ain't gonna happen. People are reacting to this asshat as though the system will let him roll over and declare a dictatorship by fiat. Our system, culture, and outlook won't permit such absent a civil war. And if he somehow managed to inspire his yahoo 30% to take up arms they would lose. Instead, he probably loses in November and flitters away into the twitterverse in mid-January 2021.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  30. #30
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The XYZelensky Affair and the Whole Impeachment Shebang

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    This is such insane levels of cowardice masked as caution.

    The dude is clearly strong-arming other countries to influence our election in his favor. You say worry when Congress starts dismantling the Constitution? Jesus man, you might as well ask people to take a day off when the illegals are executed in the streets.
    And you can shove the 'cowardice' comment sideways up your own orifice of your choice.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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