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Thread: UK General Election 2019

  1. #1
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default UK General Election 2019

    The Game is Afoot.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50221856

    Will the Brexit party compete with the Conservatives to rob them of precious votes?
    Will the Legion of Corbyn be able to fight off the threat of the Lib Dems and SNP ?
    Will Corbyn carry out his threat to directly challenge Boris on his home turf?

    To be continued...
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" - Daryl Davis
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2019

    Prediction - the boris govt will not ignore the standard lynton crosby advice - as theresa may's did - of boiling the issues down to a select few messages to the exclusion of all else.

    in his words: clear the barnacles of the hull.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2019

    It could still all be delayed again.

    I'm not sure what to do, to be honest.

    Maybe Monster Raving Loony Party.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2019

    Either people vote on one issue and we end up with a government in power for years based on one issue, or else people choose based on the whole manifesto (assuming that the parties bother to have one) and then we're back to politicians not representing their constituents on the most salient issue.

    Of course, the one thing we can guarantee is no attempt at root and branch reform of our democratic system.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2019

    There will absolutely be reform, the speaker of the house and the supreme court have been used against the executive in a political manner and the LD's election limits have caused this mess to be so protracted. The next government will find limiting and/or removing them to ensure they arent used so again a priority
    Last edited by Greyblades; 10-29-2019 at 21:40.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    There will absolutely be reform, the speaker of the house and the supreme court have been used against the executive in a political manner and the LD's election limits have caused this mess to be so protracted. The next government will find limiting and/or removing them to ensure they arent used so again a priority
    You want yet more centralisation of power under the executive. As if Johnson and Cummings haven't been abusing said power as exists currently. I look forward to a future government which is not to your liking, which will then wield such power as you want to give Johnson just because the latter is enacting Brexit.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2019

    They have only been in place a month or so now, how have they managed to abuse their power?
    Last edited by Furunculus; 10-29-2019 at 23:45.
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    You want yet more centralisation of power under the executive. As if Johnson and Cummings haven't been abusing said power as exists currently. I look forward to a future government which is not to your liking, which will then wield such power as you want to give Johnson just because the latter is enacting Brexit.
    There is no want, merely an is.

    The trust in impartiality has been betrayed, the taboo broken. Noone in the running will tolerate a power remaining un limited after being abused such, tory, labor, lib dem, green, snp, it matters not, none of them will risk being the subject of a repeat performance. Once a majority government assumes power they will waste no time crushing the institutes that took advantage of a moment of weakness

    As the remainers like to parrot without understanding, parliament is sovereign, and thanks to the neutering of the house of lords noone has the power to stop them. You should thank Blair for that one.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 10-29-2019 at 23:15.
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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2019

    It's going to be interesting to say the least.

    It looks like Labour has already shot it's foot off by attempting to include 16 year olds and foreign nationals in the franchise. Clueless of how this looks to the electorate. It smacks of we know we can't win so we'll screw over the British public. Great look guys, well done.

    As for the Lib Dems......vote for us because we will ignore your vote if we don't like the outcome. Ditto.

    The there's the Tories. Boris dead in a ditch, if we've not left the EU come Halloween. Again just Foxtrot Oscar.

    Brexit party here we come.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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  10. #10
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2019

    Never understood that prediction, why would boris be punished for us being in past haloween when the reason for it is the delaying of our zombie parliament?

    If anything would hurt him surely it would be the reheating of the chequers deal, not that.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 10-30-2019 at 11:25.
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  11. #11
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2019

    I think Boris will be fine. He is a quick learner and realises that histrionics and grand gestures matters more than keeping his word.

    I think few if any will vote Brexit party since under FPTP second place counts for nothing - and why take the risk? So tactical voting for the Tories.

    The Government managed to soldier on with a minority. The checks and balances were in fact pretty toothless barring the media spectacle - they managed to marginally alter policy. In fact, even when the PM decides to massively reduce his own party he still remained and didn't loose command of the House. The Courts came in on a very specific matter and even this was viewed as momentous. The Monarch did nothing either.

    To be seen to crush the almost cosmetic checks and balances would I think be the wrong move.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
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    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  12. #12
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2019

    A consideration but I dont think it will stay thier hand, particularly in the case of the supreme court. A unanimous verdict against the government in the face of the high court's decision that it was a political issue not legal, combined with the posturing of the most visible of the judges against the prime minister, combined again with the Court being a recent imposition on the british legal system, one pushed by the lib dems... Well, I dont think its likely that will be able to continue should we see a conservative majority.

    I could be wrong of course, what with the return of chequers I am less sure of what goes through boris and cumming's heads these days. At the very least, we definitely will see the power of snap elections return to the prime minister.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 10-30-2019 at 12:18.
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  13. #13
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    ...The Monarch did nothing either....
    I thought that was the Monarch's job, "constitutionally."
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK General Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I thought that was the Monarch's job, "constitutionally."
    Indeed. And it creates a situation where when things get bad we have no backstop. The Lords has also been hobbled and there is no clear place for the Judiciary to be involved either. Everyone covering their own backsides and entitlements rather than worrying about the future of the country. The same can be seen in Northern Ireland - all the politicians taking a salary although not even pretending to do anything. No mechanism to dissolve and reboot.

    Personally I am a monarchist with a small M, so to speak - I think that they are a better solution than the elected Presidents I have seen in my lifetime at least. So whilst I would not wish to see a return to the Star Courts but I think there must be improvements that can be made.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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    Default Re: UK General Election 2019

    Actually, one of the drawbacks to a USA-style presidency is that the President and Vice President are saddled with a surprising number of ceremonial duties that have little to do with executive decision-making etc. Some of those serve political purpose, but others are somewhat extraneous -- the White House visit for the current championship team of X sport for example. You lot have your royals to grace most ceremonial occasions at least somewhat easing the burden of such to the government.

    On the other hand, there is nothing really equivalent to a "veto" in your system. While a one-vote majority running roughshod across your legal system is unlikely (party loyalty is more powerful in the UK than the USA, but seldom THAT cohesive), the potentiality does exist for that and the Lords and the Monarch, the other "branches" of your system of governance are quite secondary. And, as I understand it, your Supreme Court can rule against a decision/action of government, but that ruling could be entirely undercut by the passage of an Act by the Commons -- as there is no officially promulgated "highest authority" as our Constitution serves as for the USA.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default UK Election 2019

    The upcoming election on December 12th really deserves its own thread, so here we are.

    So, this is the second early election in two years, the last one having been in 2017. Once again a Tory Prime Minister seeks to increase their majority in the eternal quest to "get Brexit done". Once again, the Labour party lumbers into motion with Jeremy Corbyn at the realm, shedding its more moderate members and MP's in the process.

    Fist piece of news, Labour Deputy Leader Tom Watson has resigned after the last attempt to knife him failed in September. He will not stand at the next election and has essentially said that he no longer recognises the party he joined. Meanwhile, another former Labour MP has advised the public to hold their nose and vote for Boris Johnson because Corbyn is "unfit" to lead the party, let alone the country.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    God it's a pretty pathetic time for Democracy in the UK.

    "Being better than Corbyn" is possibly one of the most depressing slogans to have - but what else can the Tories offer?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    God it's a pretty pathetic time for Democracy in the UK.

    "Being better than Corbyn" is possibly one of the most depressing slogans to have - but what else can the Tories offer?

    Maybe also "slightly less racist than Corbyn"?

    That's a pretty damning indictment of the Labour party right there.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  19. #19
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Maybe also "slightly less racist than Corbyn"?

    That's a pretty damning indictment of the Labour party right there.
    Its Jew / rich bashing or Muslim / poor bashing. It is reaching the playground in a primary school in terms of lack of nuance, data and "alternative facts". [Most] people are retreating into their own online social enclaves and hearing personal echo chambers. I've been unfriended / blocked on a few occasions for daring to challenge the data that was being quoted - not stating that the other side are great, but just to try to get people to argue on frankly reality as opposed to the conflicting fantasies.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    I suggest making one more thread on Brexit and at least a couple of threads on Uk politics. There can never be too much of UK. Neither can there be enough of Trump.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    The upcoming election on December 12th really deserves its own thread, so here we are.

    So, this is the second early election in two years, the last one having been in 2017. Once again a Tory Prime Minister seeks to increase their majority in the eternal quest to "get Brexit done". Once again, the Labour party lumbers into motion with Jeremy Corbyn at the realm, shedding its more moderate members and MP's in the process.

    Fist piece of news, Labour Deputy Leader Tom Watson has resigned after the last attempt to knife him failed in September. He will not stand at the next election and has essentially said that he no longer recognises the party he joined. Meanwhile, another former Labour MP has advised the public to hold their nose and vote for Boris Johnson because Corbyn is "unfit" to lead the party, let alone the country.
    And Boris Johnson, pathological liar (it's his distinguishing characteristic). starts his campaign with a list of lies.

    General election: 7 lies or half-truths Boris Johnson told in his first speech

    Incredible though it may seem, the Tory PM is actually worse than Corbyn. Not that I will be voting for either.

  23. #23

    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    One thing that strikes me in all the talk about PMs is that everyone loses sight of the MPs. Parliament is where the action is, so one should take into account the MPs (party) that constitute a potential PM's power base.

    As far as I'm concerned, more Labour MPs has to be better than more Conservative MPs.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Its Jew / rich bashing or Muslim / poor bashing. It is reaching the playground in a primary school in terms of lack of nuance, data and "alternative facts". [Most] people are retreating into their own online social enclaves and hearing personal echo chambers. I've been unfriended / blocked on a few occasions for daring to challenge the data that was being quoted - not stating that the other side are great, but just to try to get people to argue on frankly reality as opposed to the conflicting fantasies.

    You should spend more time doing that on the Org rather than social media. It's more productive, I promise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    And Boris Johnson, pathological liar (it's his distinguishing characteristic). starts his campaign with a list of lies.

    General election: 7 lies or half-truths Boris Johnson told in his first speech

    Incredible though it may seem, the Tory PM is actually worse than Corbyn. Not that I will be voting for either.
    An almost congenital inability to tell the truth has NOT been an impediment to a political career in and English-speaking nation on either side of the "pond" for some time now.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    An almost congenital inability to tell the truth has NOT been an impediment to a political career in and English-speaking nation on either side of the "pond" for some time now.
    It does mean that anyone thinking of voting Tory should not pretend to some kind of moral high horse. They know the current PM is a liar, has his entire career, inside and outside Parliament, defined by a habit of constantly lying (cf. his former editor and colleagues at the Telegraph). Causes that he has supposedly taken up have denounced him as a liar first and foremost, with every utterance of his safely assumed to be untrue until proven otherwise. There was an episode in Yes Prime Minister where the eponymous PM was aghast at having inadvertently told an untruth, with the threat of having to resign if it were found out. If people vote for him anyway, despite knowing him to be a liar above any other characteristic, then they should not pretend to hold any kind of moral high ground.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Aaaah, for the days when the PM would drag the country into a war based on fabricated evidence - those were the days!

    First off, you vote for the local representative. Only those in Boris's constituency are voting for him. But I've said that before and you just ignored it.

    Secondly... do people vote for any party for a sense of moral superiority? Perhaps the Green Party.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  27. #27
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    do people vote for any party for a sense of moral superiority?
    Have you seen the Lib-Dems' platform lately?
    Last edited by Greyblades; 11-07-2019 at 23:40.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Aaaah, for the days when the PM would drag the country into a war based on fabricated evidence - those were the days!

    First off, you vote for the local representative. Only those in Boris's constituency are voting for him. But I've said that before and you just ignored it.

    Secondly... do people vote for any party for a sense of moral superiority? Perhaps the Green Party.

    Then don't pretend that you have any kind of moral or intellectual superiority over the dumb Americans who elected Trump. Johnson is a replica of Trump. If you want to elect him as PM (and don't give me that guff about electing a rep only, you're not fooling anyone with that make believe crap), you're the same as those who elected Trump as President.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    I may be biased, but I believe Trump to be more of an asshat then Boris. I will stipulate that, given Trump, that is not necessarily an indication of quality for BoJo….
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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  30. #30
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Embarrassing, and apologies to Beskar. However, I would respectfully submit that when Beskar posted his thread the game was not actually afoot.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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