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Thread: UK General Election 2019

  1. #31
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    And Boris Johnson demonstrably lies about the key issue that this election has been called on, with his claims contradicting what his Brexit secretary has already said on the subject. Will any Brexiteers care? Nope.

  2. #32
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    And Boris Johnson demonstrably lies about the key issue that this election has been called on, with his claims contradicting what his Brexit secretary has already said on the subject. Will any Brexiteers care? Nope.
    What do you suggest those supporting Brexit do? Is there an alternative mechanism to complete Brexit?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  3. #33
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    What do you suggest those supporting Brexit do?
    Fuck off and die?
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

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  4. #34
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    i note with some amusement that the paradox of trying to appeal to the 'working-class' and the 'metro-iberal' is proving too much for labour, with support crashing in the north west and yorkshire.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  5. #35
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Two ongoing investigations/reports that may be damaging to the Tories have been postponed until after the election. One concerning possible financial corruption regarding a personal adviser. The other, ironically concerning Russian influence on the 2016 referendum and which has been oked by the intelligence people and is ready for publication, will not be published until after the election. This is what you will be voting for folks.

  6. #36
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    ISTR one or two members here saying that collusion with foreign powers was tantamount to treason. What do these members think of the PM postponing the publication of a report on Russian influence over the 2016 referendum?

  7. #37
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    will they get brexit done?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  8. #38
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    **waits for carol cadwolladr to get all flustered over this dark-campaigning technique**

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9195791.html

    [edit]

    oopsie, someone has a problem!

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/...64719729397761

    [/edit]
    Last edited by Furunculus; 11-11-2019 at 13:31.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  9. #39
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Guess thats it, we're locked in to a term of boris, good and ill. I'd cross my fingers but.. I am just too burned .
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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  10. #40
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Guess thats it, we're locked in to a term of boris, good and ill. I'd cross my fingers but.. I am just too burned .
    Wasn't that what you chose?

  11. #41
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    I thought I would get what I chose in August... and 2017... and 2016....
    Last edited by Greyblades; 11-11-2019 at 16:44.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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  12. #42
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Brexit party makes it move. They will not target the seats of sitting Tories.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50377396
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" - Daryl Davis
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  13. #43
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    I thought I would get what I chose in August... and 2017... and 2016....
    I hope you will be happy with the Johnson government that you will elect this time round. Presumably the other Leavers here will be voting the same way to facilitate what they want.

  14. #44
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    there is literally no-one else i could vote for:

    labour is the very antithesis of my views.
    lib-dems are close if they were truer to classical liberalism, but they're enabling nationalist parties and I am a unionist. and nuts of brexit.
    the nationalist parties are (in wales and scotland) are bin juice.
    brexit party are of no interest.
    greens are a bunch of useless virtue-signallers.

    who does that leave?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  15. #45
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I hope you will be happy with the Johnson government that you will elect this time round. Presumably the other Leavers here will be voting the same way to facilitate what they want.
    No, not happy. But then I wasn't impressed with Blair's wars and Cameroon and May seemed to achieve very little of real substance. Who do you want to run the country?

    Please can you lay out an alternative method of Brexit?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
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  16. #46
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    there is literally no-one else i could vote for:

    labour is the very antithesis of my views.
    lib-dems are close if they were truer to classical liberalism, but they're enabling nationalist parties and I am a unionist. and nuts of brexit.
    the nationalist parties are (in wales and scotland) are bin juice.
    brexit party are of no interest.
    greens are a bunch of useless virtue-signallers.

    who does that leave?
    Are you ignoring the fact that the majority of Tory members, ie. the people who chose Johnson as PM, would accept the break up of the UK if that was the price of Brexit? In this forum the Brexiteers have largely been of a "Whatever will be will be" sentiment on this, whereas I've been strongly speaking up for the continuation of the union. A Tory government implementing Brexit will in practice mean the break up of the UK, especially as Johnson has agreed a deal that would split NI away from GB (hence even the DUP's opposition to it).

    If you want the union and an examination of Brexit, perhaps you should demand that Brexit only goes ahead when all the nations have a majority for it. Right now, England for certain and perhaps Wales may still have a majority for it, but Scotland and Northern Ireland certainly don't. If Scotland, Northern Ireland and maybe even Wales have a majority against, but England has a majority for, do you still call yourself a unionist if you want something that the rest of the UK does not? Do you still call yourself a unionist when, as a result of this, and as predicted by others, the other nations want to move away from the UK? You like the idea of aligning with the US. Scotland likes aligning with the EU in general, while NI likes aligning with the RoI in particular. They are happy within the union as it currently is. You want to break this apart, yet you call yourself a unionist.

  17. #47
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    No, not happy. But then I wasn't impressed with Blair's wars and Cameroon and May seemed to achieve very little of real substance. Who do you want to run the country?

    Please can you lay out an alternative method of Brexit?

    You won. We lost. Now keep your promises, starting with the 350 million per week for the NHS.

  18. #48
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    You won. We lost. Now keep your promises, starting with the 350 million per week for the NHS.
    Still the same tired old lines / lies. This has even gone to court and even they threw out the petulant whining.

    Leave won. So... yeah. Get on with it.

    Would you like to have a go asking the simple question of how this is to be achieved? You are quick with problems and pretty thin on solutions.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  19. #49
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Are you ignoring the fact that the majority of Tory members, ie. the people who chose Johnson as PM, would accept the break up of the UK if that was the price of Brexit? In this forum the Brexiteers have largely been of a "Whatever will be will be" sentiment on this, whereas I've been strongly speaking up for the continuation of the union. A Tory government implementing Brexit will in practice mean the break up of the UK, especially as Johnson has agreed a deal that would split NI away from GB (hence even the DUP's opposition to it).

    If you want the union and an examination of Brexit, perhaps you should demand that Brexit only goes ahead when all the nations have a majority for it. Right now, England for certain and perhaps Wales may still have a majority for it, but Scotland and Northern Ireland certainly don't. If Scotland, Northern Ireland and maybe even Wales have a majority against, but England has a majority for, do you still call yourself a unionist if you want something that the rest of the UK does not? Do you still call yourself a unionist when, as a result of this, and as predicted by others, the other nations want to move away from the UK? You like the idea of aligning with the US. Scotland likes aligning with the EU in general, while NI likes aligning with the RoI in particular. They are happy within the union as it currently is. You want to break this apart, yet you call yourself a unionist.
    This is a good example of how not all Leavers are the same(!)

    I would like the union to continue. Rather like if one is married one would like one's partner to stay. But if they want to leave then surely they should be allowed to do so.

    Both Northern Ireland and Scotland have been bribed for years with money to not cause a fuss - this is not a new problem and frankly the process already started under Devolution in exactly the same way it did with Canada, Australia and New Zealand when they regained Dominion status.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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  20. #50
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  21. #51
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Alternate title: conservatives attempt to gain seats the brexit party are contesting by buying off candidates with jobs, peerages and getting paywalled articles in the telegraph attacking farage.

    Allegedly, but I am inclined to believe it as using the peerage as a reward for loyalty is standard british practice, an exemplar example being bercow being denied one after going rogue with the speakers chair.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 11-15-2019 at 10:10.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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  22. #52
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Still the same tired old lines / lies. This has even gone to court and even they threw out the petulant whining.

    Leave won. So... yeah. Get on with it.

    Would you like to have a go asking the simple question of how this is to be achieved? You are quick with problems and pretty thin on solutions.

    How was that a lie? Did Leave not promise 350 million for the NHS, or did Leave not win?

  23. #53
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    How was that a lie? Did Leave not promise 350 million for the NHS, or did Leave not win?
    He did a disservice by including the word 'lies' as the tenor of his post was best served by the 'tired old lines' phrase.

    And, of course, any budget that does not include that 350 million in funding should mandate mass resignation on the part of those who promised same. It is the only honorable thing.

    In other words, Pan,' WE GET IT ALREADY, they fucking well lied their asses off. We hereby stipulate same and you can move on to something else. It is not as though the leave crowd has only made this one mis-statement and it is the only thing you can throw in their faces. Sheesh.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  24. #54
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    He did a disservice by including the word 'lies' as the tenor of his post was best served by the 'tired old lines' phrase.

    And, of course, any budget that does not include that 350 million in funding should mandate mass resignation on the part of those who promised same. It is the only honorable thing.

    In other words, Pan,' WE GET IT ALREADY, they fucking well lied their asses off. We hereby stipulate same and you can move on to something else. It is not as though the leave crowd has only made this one mis-statement and it is the only thing you can throw in their faces. Sheesh.
    Thanks. And it is not surprising that he jumped on the one poorly chosen word rather than the substance.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  25. #55
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Thanks. And it is not surprising that he jumped on the one poorly chosen word rather than the substance.

    What is the substance of Brexit? What is gained from it? We have a pretty good idea of what we lose from it, not least the UK most likely. What do we get from paying that price?

  26. #56
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    What is the substance of Brexit? What is gained from it? We have a pretty good idea of what we lose from it, not least the UK most likely. What do we get from paying that price?
    A return to individual sovereignty, whereas the EU is trending (slowly) toward a more centralized collective. It is a judgement call for each UK'er as to whether or not that "whistle" is worth the price.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  27. #57
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    One of the most depressing campaigns I can remember. Just the level of manipulation, nonsense, stitch up and dumb wrong-headedness.

    Corbyn the Jew hater on account of being the first party leader to suggest that the ongoing displacement, ethnic cleansing, routine interment without trial and murder of Palestinians is perhaps a bit unfair - the full Israeli propaganda machine kicks into gear.

    Add to that Russia and big money piling on the pressure to get out of the EU and protect their off shore money - while convincing people that it's all too do with national pride and bureaucracy.

    Labour missing the public mood in critical areas.

    Lib Dems being shit as ever.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  28. #58
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    A return to individual sovereignty, whereas the EU is trending (slowly) toward a more centralized collective. It is a judgement call for each UK'er as to whether or not that "whistle" is worth the price.
    Which bits of sovereignty though? We're still subject to WTO rules, despite Brexiteers portraying that as a no-rule complete sovereignty default. And as such, other countries impose their own demands on us, such as India, Canada, Australia and most notably the US already have. The US in particular has a list of demands on areas that the EU has not touched, that the UK populace generally see as holy cows.

    More importantly, Brexit supporters have changed the style of discourse in the UK, that have dumped all the traditional checks and balances in favour of the centralised executive (you've seen all the demands here that the executive should not be subject to the legislative or the law). Imagine if the US has a popular executive that persists but does not have a super majority, but their supporters demand that both Houses, all the courts, and every other check on the executive should step out of their way. That's what we have in the UK.

    And what makes it even more cringing, is that supporters of this in the UK then have gall to take the high horse on Trump. At the very least, even if my cause is lost, I will hold the supporters of Brexit to the consequences of their decision and continued support for such, letting them know at every abysmal step that they are continuing to support this and what they are doing to support it, and letting them see that the despised Donald Trump and his antics is exactly what they are supporting in the UK.

    I shouldn't have had to do this of course. The leader of the opposition should have been leading the way. But Corbyn is a useless who is just as bad as the Brexiteers, who are of course his fellows.

  29. #59
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    One of the most depressing campaigns I can remember. Just the level of manipulation, nonsense, stitch up and dumb wrong-headedness.

    Corbyn the Jew hater on account of being the first party leader to suggest that the ongoing displacement, ethnic cleansing, routine interment without trial and murder of Palestinians is perhaps a bit unfair - the full Israeli propaganda machine kicks into gear.

    Add to that Russia and big money piling on the pressure to get out of the EU and protect their off shore money - while convincing people that it's all too do with national pride and bureaucracy.

    Labour missing the public mood in critical areas.

    Lib Dems being shit as ever.
    It's Corbyn the Brexiteer whom I hate. But for him, whom you, Littlegrizzly, etc. idolise, I'd be voting Labour, as would be many others who are now turning elsewhere.

  30. #60
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Election 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    It's Corbyn the Brexiteer whom I hate. But for him, whom you, Littlegrizzly, etc. idolise, I'd be voting Labour, as would be many others who are now turning elsewhere.
    Yes I idolise him. Therefore everything is my fault.

    This is an excellent example of how politics and political discussion has gone down the toilet.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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