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Thread: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

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    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    So, I read that entire article. The author seems extremely harsh on both sides, and it's worth noting that they reduce both to being essentially morally bankrupt husks. It reads very much like a "call to action" for the moderate Left and centre-Left.
    Which is a sensible way of putting it - instead of having extremists on both ends capture the majorities, we need the moderate centre of which many are part of to also take part in the political process.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Which is a sensible way of putting it - instead of having extremists on both ends capture the majorities, we need the moderate centre of which many are part of to also take part in the political process.
    True, although if people refuse to mobalise there's not a lot you can do. Boris Johnson is really a centre-right politician who has pivoted more to the right because that's where the votes are - rather like Mitt Rommey in 2012. That being said, if Labour continue towards the hard left the Conservatives will become more moderate as people turned off from Labour gravitate to the "other" party and exert an intellectual gravity that drags them back to the centre. Eventually Labour will either concede to a new, more moderate, left-wing party or they will become more moderate themselves.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Which is a sensible way of putting it - instead of having extremists on both ends capture the majorities, we need the moderate centre of which many are part of to also take part in the political process.
    which is what FPTP is supposed to achieve, because you can't achieve power without appealing broadly across the geographic and political divide.
    the 'common ground' in short (which is a different thing to the centre ground).
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    which is what FPTP is supposed to achieve, because you can't achieve power without appealing broadly across the geographic and political divide.
    the 'common ground' in short (which is a different thing to the centre ground).
    Unfortunately it is supposed. In practice, it is the largest minority ruling.

    This is where a system like STV would come into play, as you need to reach a threshold of votes and also allows people to state their preferences more distinctly.

    So for example, the person voting for the Brexit party who won't win may view the Conservatives as an alternative. Therefore, those who feel the same would have a transfer of votes to them and having a better reflection of the population (ie: that candidate represents lets say 42% of the area now, rather than 34%). Similar to the ideological aligned/pact of Greens & LibDems. It also helps reduce tactical voting as people are more likely to vote for the person/party who more closely represents their views, without feeling it has been 'wasted'.
    Last edited by Beskar; 01-29-2020 at 20:23.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Interestingly, 14388 votes on the Telegraph website but Stammer and Long-Bailey level on 42%

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...rophic-defeat/
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Unfortunately it is supposed. In practice, it is the largest minority ruling.

    This is where a system like STV would come into play, as you need to reach a threshold of votes and also allows people to state their preferences more distinctly.

    So for example, the person voting for the Brexit party who won't win may view the Conservatives as an alternative. Therefore, those who feel the same would have a transfer of votes to them and having a better reflection of the population (ie: that candidate represents lets say 42% of the area now, rather than 34%). Similar to the ideological aligned/pact of Greens & LibDems. It also helps reduce tactical voting as people are more likely to vote for the person/party who more closely represents their views, without feeling it has been 'wasted'.
    i accept this benefit, but id want to weigh stv against my dislike of coalition politics.
    i like a majoritarian electoral system (different from majoritarian government), and would reject systems greatly encourage that outcome.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i like a majoritarian electoral system (different from majoritarian government), and would reject systems greatly encourage that outcome.
    Are you able to explain this a little better for me?

    If I am understanding you correctly, you like this (which is different from this), and therefore you reject any systems which greatly encourage this.

    If I understood you correctly, are you able explore your views of the criticisms?



    As a side-note, I kind of see Majoritarian Democracy as what Marx meant by Tyranny of the Proletariat. ie: The workers have full control as they outnumber the bourgeoisie. In a very simplistic way.
    Last edited by Beskar; 01-31-2020 at 00:26.
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Are you able to explain this a little better for me?

    If I am understanding you correctly, you like this (which is different from this), and therefore you reject any systems which greatly encourage this.

    If I understood you correctly, are you able explore your views of the criticisms?



    As a side-note, I kind of see Majoritarian Democracy as what Marx meant by Tyranny of the Proletariat. ie: The workers have full control as they outnumber the bourgeoisie. In a very simplistic way.
    Well, the best system of government is a benign but competent Tyrant, as originally expounded by Aristotle and demonstrated by Terry Pratchett. So, anything else is a compromise designed to prevent the ascension of a malign Tyrant.

    It's worth noting that recent elections, whilst not necessarily returning MP's with absolute majorities have tended to reflect the national mood. We threw Labour out in 2010 but were only lukewarm on Cameron whilst quite enchanted with Clegg - result was a Lib-Dem Coalition. In 2015 we were ready to give David Cameron an actual working majority after he legislated for something like a Living Wage and homosexual marriage. In 2017 a lot of us felt Theresa May was the wrong person for the job but even more so didn't want Corbyn - Hung Parliament with minority Conservative Government. Then, 2019 a lot of people a sick and./or afraid of Corbyn, his hypocrisy, his racism and his general incompetence whilst Boris Johnson is offering higher wages, lower taxes and an end to Brexit.

    Result: Thundering Conservative Majority.
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Are you able to explain this a little better for me?

    If I am understanding you correctly, you like this (which is different from this), and therefore you reject any systems which greatly encourage this.

    If I understood you correctly, are you able explore your views of the criticisms?



    As a side-note, I kind of see Majoritarian Democracy as what Marx meant by Tyranny of the Proletariat. ie: The workers have full control as they outnumber the bourgeoisie. In a very simplistic way.
    In short:
    I recognise that society must change, which means it must move outside of the experience of the status quo. because, events!
    Because we are moving outside the status quo in response to events, i don't want public policy defined by the 'argument' the competing parties have in their understanding of each other.
    It limits the range of change into too small a bandwidth.

    What i see a majoritiarian electoral system giving me is radical policy (even if it is occasionally radical in the opposite direction to my preference).
    Fail quickly, fail fast.
    Adapt and thrive, fail and stagnate.

    As a side effect of having to have the coalition in place before the election (within the party), it encourages the platform to be as wide as possible in order to appeal to an election winning common-ground as well as their voter heartlands. Where consensual systems lead to the coalition after the election (between parties), allowing manifesto's to be ejected, success/failure criteria difficult to establish, and permissive of fringe parties well outside the common ground to succeed, and be a part of policy making.

    There's lots of good things about proportional/consensual politics, but lots of failings too.
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    It's worth noting that recent elections, whilst not necessarily returning MP's with absolute majorities have tended to reflect the national mood. We threw Labour out in 2010 but were only lukewarm on Cameron whilst quite enchanted with Clegg - result was a Lib-Dem Coalition. In 2015 we were ready to give David Cameron an actual working majority after he legislated for something like a Living Wage and homosexual marriage. In 2017 a lot of us felt Theresa May was the wrong person for the job but even more so didn't want Corbyn - Hung Parliament with minority Conservative Government. Then, 2019 a lot of people a sick and./or afraid of Corbyn, his hypocrisy, his racism and his general incompetence whilst Boris Johnson is offering higher wages, lower taxes and an end to Brexit.

    Result: Thundering Conservative Majority.
    The flaw in the "national mood" story is that the difference between a hung parliament and a thundering majority is 5% of the vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    In short:
    I recognise that society must change, which means it must move outside of the experience of the status quo. because, events!
    Because we are moving outside the status quo in response to events, i don't want public policy defined by the 'argument' the competing parties have in their understanding of each other.
    It limits the range of change into too small a bandwidth.
    I agree in principle but, uh - so you are a radical!
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    In short:
    I recognise that society must change, which means it must move outside of the experience of the status quo. because, events!
    Because we are moving outside the status quo in response to events, i don't want public policy defined by the 'argument' the competing parties have in their understanding of each other.
    It limits the range of change into too small a bandwidth.

    What i see a majoritiarian electoral system giving me is radical policy (even if it is occasionally radical in the opposite direction to my preference).
    Fail quickly, fail fast.
    Adapt and thrive, fail and stagnate.

    As a side effect of having to have the coalition in place before the election (within the party), it encourages the platform to be as wide as possible in order to appeal to an election winning common-ground as well as their voter heartlands. Where consensual systems lead to the coalition after the election (between parties), allowing manifesto's to be ejected, success/failure criteria difficult to establish, and permissive of fringe parties well outside the common ground to succeed, and be a part of policy making.

    There's lots of good things about proportional/consensual politics, but lots of failings too.
    At what point do you assess the success or failure of Brexit?

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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    At what point do you assess the success or failure of Brexit?
    https://professorbuzzkill.com/qnq-26-zhou-enlai/
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    You mean never. So basically you get to go for as radical a change as possible, regardless of mandate or not, and there is never any argument against it.

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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    At what point do you assess the success or failure of Brexit?
    Radical change - leaving something that the UK only joined under 50 years ago and changed several times in the meantime.

    When was the success or failure of the EU established? Given that what was initially joined was radically different to what was left, there surely was a review at each change. Or not.

    Or more broadly, when is there a review of every major policy decision the government takes undertaken? Practically never.

    A desire to bang the drum on one issue is on one hand laudable in how many threads can be derailed to the one issue, but is also very, very wearing.

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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    You mean never. So basically you get to go for as radical a change as possible, regardless of mandate or not, and there is never any argument against it.


    yes. Precisely.

    and you get to argue for some milquetoast consensual democracy where choice is carefully hemmed into a safe path via constitutional guardrails to make sure that tomorrow is quite like yesterday.

    obviously, i think that is a terrible idea if we desire the long term survival of an adaptable and agile nation-state, but there we are...
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    After the last 25 years of shih tzu after shih tzu, duck hunt after duck hunt, I think I am truly sick of major spurr of the moment reform

    I dont want yet another experiment nor do I want a foreign transplant from a different system I want the wreckage of the blair cameron and may years to be fixed or undone.
    Last edited by Beskar; 02-02-2020 at 01:28. Reason: naughty words removed
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    -before edit-
    You might want to edit that....
    Last edited by Beskar; 02-02-2020 at 01:28.
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    At what point do you assess the success or failure of Brexit?
    20-50 years.

    Now, can we get off Brexit and back on topic, please?
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    20-50 years.

    Now, can we get off Brexit and back on topic, please?
    You and others turned the discussion to the benefits of the current electoral system. Furunculus argued that the system gives a mandate for radical reform. So I asked him how long it would take for the most radical recent reform to be assessed. Is this not a natural progression of your thread of discussion? Or does radical reform exist as some kind of eternal revolution a la Mao Zedong that does not need to be assessed, merely embarked on without thought of consequences?

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    yes. Precisely.

    and you get to argue for some milquetoast consensual democracy where choice is carefully hemmed into a safe path via constitutional guardrails to make sure that tomorrow is quite like yesterday.

    obviously, i think that is a terrible idea if we desire the long term survival of an adaptable and agile nation-state, but there we are...
    How do you assess change to be effective and positive if, as you argue, the principle of change is the only principle that needs to be observed, and results do not matter until some point in the distant future when all the participants are dead? You quote Zhou Enlai to support your argument as though he actually does, when Zhou was actually from the progressive branch of the CCP (his protege famously coined the black and white cat quote to decry dogmatism). Your argument for radical reform for radical reform's sake is more reminiscent of Mao Zedong's call for eternal revolution, aka the cultural revolution. That argument led to the destruction of China's historical heritage for the sake of change.

    I think I can do without that kind of adaptation and agility. I actually admire Zhou Enlai's school of pragmatism, gradualism and cooperation, and I despise the Maoist doctrine of violent change for change's sake.

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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    I don't have to take responsibility for gov't policy as an individual, none of us do, we're only one more feather on the scales of what is a collective action.

    so asking how long do we wait to weigh success is impossible to answer.
    i might wait six months.
    you might demand six years.
    a political party may ask for the patience to see through one more heave.
    and the electorate may kerbstomp the gov't for trying their patience.

    personally i work to the new labour mantra:
    first term to make the reforms.
    second term to embed them as normal.
    if it survives a third term then you have become part of the myth and legend of the nation.
    so ten years.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 02-02-2020 at 09:34.
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    You might want to edit that....
    Didnt think beskar still had admin powers.

    The edited version robs it of the sheer depth of resentment I meant to convey. Duck them.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 02-02-2020 at 02:00.
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    You and others turned the discussion to the benefits of the current electoral system. Furunculus argued that the system gives a mandate for radical reform. So I asked him how long it would take for the most radical recent reform to be assessed. Is this not a natural progression of your thread of discussion? Or does radical reform exist as some kind of eternal revolution a la Mao Zedong that does not need to be assessed, merely embarked on without thought of consequences?
    Those are escellent question, but they really belong in their own thread if you want to discuss them at length, for they are rather more serious that the topic at hand is meant to be.

    I should be quite happy to contribute to such a thread, I might add.
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Didnt think beskar still had admin powers.

    The edited version robs it of the sheer depth of resentment I meant to convey. Duck them.
    I do understand the attraction of using swear-words, especially out loud, but the true joy of the English language is crafting insults that are both unmistakable in their intent whilst being simultaneously oh so difficult to pin down and object to.

    It is the way that we cultivate our reputation as a race online so that the rest of the world can differentiate us from Americans.

    Silence and stillness dear boy, on the surface.
    Last edited by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus; 02-02-2020 at 20:56.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    I do understand the attraction of using swear-words, especially out loud, but the true joy of the English language is crafting insults that are both unmistakable in their intent whilst being simultaneous oh so difficult to pin down and object to.
    Or calling your opponent an egregious anorak scrounger. That kind of works too. An alphabet soup of eccentric words.
    Last edited by Beskar; 02-02-2020 at 04:36.
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    I have decided to find alternatives for swear words, thus I plan to heavily referr to this sheet from now on:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Greyblades; 02-02-2020 at 07:54.
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    So we got Kier Starmer and Angela Raynor as the leadership duo.

    I confess, I was a Nandy man - as a consequence of her having an understanding of non-metropolitan labour.

    That said, on an entirely different cultural battleground that the party also needs to win for the same non-metropolitan voterbase - he made the excellent choice of refusing to sign those silly trans pledges. identity politics is where the left-wing jumps the shark, and he at least seems to realise this.

    We may soon have a competant Labour party to fill the role of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition. Hurray!
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Got to be honest, Labour leadership hasn't been in the headlines at all. I got no idea who is who at the moment, other than vagueness.
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  29. #59
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Truly?

    You're politically interested and solidly left, i find it hard to grasp if you haven't got a position on the leadership.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: And now the next kerfuffle - the Labour Leadership

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Truly?

    You're politically interested and solidly left, i find it hard to grasp if you haven't got a position on the leadership.
    Which implies that Labour is in day-to-day mode with no strong leader figure having yet emerged from quiet internal discussions.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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