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Thread: Coronavirus / COVID-19

  1. #1201
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    To be fair [...]
    Fair to whom? Whatever happened to all the conservative BS rhetoric about FREEEEEEEEEDOM to do whatever I want, constitutional rights, and keeping government out of people's lives? Yet two state governors in particular, DeSantis in Florida, and Abbot in Texas are eying their future political ambitions at the expense of their constituents. What exactly is the problem with letting city and county health experts decide what serves the public health interest best? Why letting those socialists determine what's best for people in the midst of this pandemic looks weak... And we all know what that means when it comes to the "Trump Base"....

    People are going to die unnecessarily because of the political actions of these two governors, and others, over and above those who subscribe to the Peoples Temple death cult....

    I stand by my statement, politicians get qualified immunity when it comes to killing their own constituents...
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 08-17-2021 at 04:33.
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  2. #1202
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    One of the best descriptions from the medical profession side of the pandemic I've read to date:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...fusers/619716/

    It's a short read, and I highly recommend it.
    High Plains Drifter

  3. #1203
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    In a similar vein, with doctors walking out of a Florida hospital today to protest the unvaccinated, I think we are going to get to a point where we need to have a discussion about triaging and whether or not its ethical for doctors to treat the unvaccinated last, considering that in almost all cases, especially with today's full FDA approval of the Pfizer vaccine, the excuses just arent valid anymore (if they ever were).
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    I do wonder why Doctors have to work to an ethical standard - above their own wellbeing - whereas others can be utterly selfish with no consequence. This isn't about the patient, this is about the increased risk to the clinical staff around them.

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  5. #1205
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    In a similar vein, with doctors walking out of a Florida hospital today to protest the unvaccinated, I think we are going to get to a point where we need to have a discussion about triaging and whether or not its ethical for doctors to treat the unvaccinated last, considering that in almost all cases, especially with today's full FDA approval of the Pfizer vaccine, the excuses just aren't valid anymore (if they ever were).
    Triaging has, historically, been done based upon the medicos best estimate as to the survivability chances of the patient. In the civilian sector, triaging rarely labels anyone as "expectant" and writes them off. The obviously dead are the only ones likely not to be shipped to a trauma center/hospital of some type with the most grievously injured getting the most rapid transport to the highest caliber facility first and so on. The military DOES use the expectant tag, and tends to treat the most lightly wounded, and the most grievously wounded but having a good chance to make it first (the lightly wounded are patched up and returned to the mission, the others get the transport. The notably wounded but unable to return to the mission are, at least technically, supposed to be treated after those who can be returned to combat following the minimum needed to stabilize.

    I am not sure I would want civilian medicine to triage using the expectant category -- at least outside catastrophe situations (which I acknowledge that Covid19 HAS created in some instances). I am not ready to support stupidity as a triage rule either. Yes, it is a stupid choice not to be vaccinated, but if we offer or deny/delay services based on this stupid choice, must we not do the same for other choices -- jaywalking at night, deep-frying your frozen turkey, etc.?
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  6. #1206
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    I do wonder why Doctors have to work to an ethical standard - above their own wellbeing - whereas others can be utterly selfish with no consequence. This isn't about the patient, this is about the increased risk to the clinical staff around them.

    Supposedly, the higher ethical standard is expected of those we label "professionals" -- physicians, attorneys, academics, etc. In part, because they stem back to the self-governing medieval guilds and are supposed to discipline themselves for the good of their profession.

    As to how well this professionalism has been honored over the years....
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  7. #1207

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Second opinion, please, but is this article suggesting that deliberate exposure to unmodified coronavirus may be a better long-term mitigation strategy than booster shots?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I am not sure I would want civilian medicine to triage using the expectant category -- at least outside catastrophe situations (which I acknowledge that Covid19 HAS created in some instances). I am not ready to support stupidity as a triage rule either. Yes, it is a stupid choice not to be vaccinated, but if we offer or deny/delay services based on this stupid choice, must we not do the same for other choices -- jaywalking at night, deep-frying your frozen turkey, etc.?
    Split the difference: require vaccination to access medical services.

    Supposedly, the higher ethical standard is expected of those we label "professionals" -- physicians, attorneys, academics, etc. In part, because they stem back to the self-governing medieval guilds and are supposed to discipline themselves for the good of their profession.

    As to how well this professionalism has been honored over the years....
    I may be wrong, but I'm somewhat confident that professional standards of marked professions as associations date back about a century or so, not substantially to any medieval precursors. Or to the extent there were medieval influences on the modern legal profession, they appear to comprise oaths of conduct decreed by Church or State (e.g. ecclesiastical proctors) more than the legacy of nascent associational practices.

    A half-full way of looking at broad genealogy of professionalism from the first link (which doesn't address guilds or associations in medieval context at all):

    When viewed in isolation, any one of these historical sets of standards may seem quite different than a set from another era, but when viewed in context of their broader 800-year evolution, the standards are remarkably similar over time. The
    core concepts-litigation fairness, competence, loyalty, confidentiality, reasonable fees, and public service-have remained surprisingly constant. To be sure, modern codes have made significant advances, but the primary changes have come in the degree of detail and the regulatory effect of the standards of conduct, not in the core duties.
    My understanding of the principle of medieval guilds, as reinforced in the limited discussion of advocates' associations in England, France, and Italy during the High Medieval and Renaissance eras in the second link, is that they were more about regulating the supply and mutual relationships of certain classes of labor than defining unique professional standards and rubrics of ethics, discipline, and practice.

    Though this conclusion from the second link implies I underestimate the interventionism of craft guilds.

    One might have expected that the professional associations of advocates would play a prominent role in enforcing standards of conduct, as other craft guilds often did, but that in fact seems not to have happened. Advocates' professional organizations showed little fervor for disciplining their erring members. Some even attempted to hobble efforts at enforcement. The Florentine guild of lawyers and notaries, for example, forbade its members to play any role in disciplinary proceedings against other guild members before the courts.82 Advocates thus left enforcement of professional standards largely in the hands of public authorities and injured clients, who might bring actions for damages against them.
    I mean, why haven't all Trump-world lawyers been at least disbarred yet for their manifest and immanent excesses?

    The Constitutions of Pope Benedict XII (1334-42), for example, directed papal judges and administrators to fine negligent advocates and in addition to see to it that they made good any damages that resulted from their failure to show due care. Advocates who proved persistently negligent were to be suspended or barred from practice. 83 A generation later, Gregory XI (1370-78) decreed that advocates must sign the libellus and other procedural documents submitted in their cases so that they could be held responsible for any errors in them.84 These papal constitutions simply formalized what had previously been the practice in many canonical courts.85 Advocates who maliciously betrayed their clients' secrets, who lied or misrepresented the client's position, or who engaged in other deceitful and dishonest practices were also liable for damages; in some circumstances they could be fined, deprived of ecclesiastical office, or disbarred.86 Clients, too, had an obligation to be careful. If the advocate made an erroneous admission or statement, his client could disavow it and thus protect himself from damage. The client who failed to disavow his advocate's words, however, became liable for the consequences of the error. 87 An advocate could not withdraw from a case, once he had begun it, unless he had good reason; otherwise he might be punished for deserting his client.88 It did no good for him to excuse himself because of overwork; a papal constitution forbade advocates to take more cases than they could handle properly and prescribed punishment for those who failed to show good judgment in regulating their case load.
    Hmmmm... is this what reactionary sympathy feels like?

    So wry I assumed the author of this paper was British:

    One thread that seems to run through these isolated episodes of disciplinary enforcement is that in every case the initiative for disciplinary action apparently came from a dissatisfied client, not from judges or fellow-lawyers.90 Two alternative explanations for the rarity of disciplinary proceedings seem plausible. One is that medieval canonical advocates were a law abiding group who observed the standards of professional conduct scrupulously, and that practitioners who deviated from the ethical code were really quite rare. The other is that deviations from the established standards of behavior were probably not uncommon, but that canonical disciplinary mechanisms were so inefficient that most delinquents escaped detection and punishment.
    It is striking that so much of the earliest evidence about the existence of professional lawyers in medieval Europe occurs in the works of authors who were not trained in the law and who were critical of the newfangled legal specialists: as soon as the lawyer appeared on the scene, he was resented and criticized.96 This seems to be the invariable fate of legal professionals throughout the ages: they have been targets of abuse and criticism in every society that has had an identifiable body of legal specialists. Critics of the legal profession in medieval Europe, as in other societies, took aim at the gap between the ethical ideals held up for the lawyers and their performance in actual practice. These criticisms seem to have had a paradoxical result, for they apparently reinforced the professional solidarity of the lawyers at the expense of the enforcement of ethical standards.98 Thus the profession's critics may actually have induced advocates to organize professional associations for self-defense. The critics' attacks may also have persuaded lawyers to assign a higher priority to defending themselves against attacks by nonprofessionals than to disciplining wayward members within their own ranks.
    [...]
    The same priorities have often been noted in recent times. In 1970, for example, the American Bar Association's Special Committee on Evaluation of Disciplinary Enforcement reported that, "With few exceptions, the prevailing attitude of lawyers toward disciplinary enforcement ranges from apathy to outright hostility. Disciplinary action is practically nonexistent in many jurisdictions; practices and procedures are antiquated; many disciplinary agencies have little power to take effective steps against malefactors."
    Without reading through to the sections on the early American legal profession, I wonder if it shows that the associations followed and oriented around state regulation as a driver, as in medieval times, or if the American state(s) deferred to the emerging bars. Certainly any degree of other reading of life and lives of the early Republic make out the legal profession of the time as reflective of marked frontier conditions.

    (I don't make any comments on the medical profession because I can't be bothered to study on it.)
    Last edited by Montmorency; 08-25-2021 at 02:48.
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  8. #1208
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Second opinion, please, but is this article suggesting that deliberate exposure to unmodified coronavirus may be a better long-term mitigation strategy than booster shots?
    Sounds like the herd immunity argument, which IIRC Sweden tried at the start of this thing and then abandoned because it wasnt working. The biggest problem with this is that it would open people up to a host of unintended side effects as Covid can wreak havoc in the body in a multitude of ways. One of my friends caught it in December 2020 and still doesn't have his full sense of smell back yet. Another friend caught it in November 2020 and had her voice box ravaged by it of all things. She has been in speech therapy for six months now trying to get her voice beyond a raspy whisper. Perhaps the vaccine can just be used to take the edge off, but this just seems like a huge gamble with peoples lives.
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  9. #1209
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    Sounds like the herd immunity argument, which IIRC Sweden tried at the start of this thing and then abandoned because it wasnt working. The biggest problem with this is that it would open people up to a host of unintended side effects as Covid can wreak havoc in the body in a multitude of ways. One of my friends caught it in December 2020 and still doesn't have his full sense of smell back yet. Another friend caught it in November 2020 and had her voice box ravaged by it of all things. She has been in speech therapy for six months now trying to get her voice beyond a raspy whisper. Perhaps the vaccine can just be used to take the edge off, but this just seems like a huge gamble with peoples lives.
    I have always thought those lauding "herd immunity" as an answer to be a bit silly. Herd immunity is a natural condition. Once a sufficient portion of the population has antibodies to counteract most variants of a virus, that virus ceases to be a threat in all but a limited number of instances. The percentage of the population with antibodies that is required for this 'herd immunity' varies with the communicability of the virus in question. Herd immunity is an inevitability, not an 'answer.'

    The question is, do you want to vaccinate to achieve the antibody percentage needed to functionally forestall the virus or do you want to let nature cull the population until you reach the threshold needed? I, myself, think vaccination makes just a tad bit more sense,
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  10. #1210
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    The rich in general have both had vaccines and will also have access to the expensive treatments that are coming out.

    The poor are increasingly being viewed as "economically unproductive" and so if a few percentage of them die well... no biggie; if they also were sitting on large piles of money then so much the better.

    Sweden might not have undertaken it for these reasons (and with a very diffuse population might have had a chance several iterations of virus ago) but those now pushing the idea seem to view this as a convenient excuse alongside as getting all the plebs back to their jobs.

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  11. #1211
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    A bridge too far?

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ocracy/619940/

    Intrastate travel within Australia is also severely restricted. And the government of South Australia, one of the country’s six states, developed and is now testing an app as Orwellian as any in the free world to enforce its quarantine rules. People in South Australia will be forced to download an app that combines facial recognition and geolocation. The state will text them at random times, and thereafter they will have 15 minutes to take a picture of their face in the location where they are supposed to be. Should they fail, the local police department will be sent to follow up in person. “We don’t tell them how often or when, on a random basis they have to reply within 15 minutes,” Premier Steven Marshall explained. “I think every South Australian should feel pretty proud that we are the national pilot for the home-based quarantine app.”
    Australia is undoubtedly a democracy, with multiple political parties, regular elections, and the peaceful transfer of power. But if a country indefinitely forbids its own citizens from leaving its borders, strands tens of thousands of its citizens abroad, puts strict rules on intrastate travel, prohibits citizens from leaving home without an excuse from an official government list, mandates masks even when people are outdoors and socially distanced, deploys the military to enforce those rules, bans protest, and arrests and fines dissenters, is that country still a liberal democracy?
    Enduring rules of that sort would certainly render a country a police state. In year two of the pandemic, with COVID-19 now thought to be endemic, rather than a temporary emergency the nation could avoid, how much time must pass before we must regard Australia as illiberal and unfree?
    In return for trading away their liberty, Australians gained a huge safety dividend. COVID-19 has killed 194 of every 100,000 Americans, 77 of every 100,000 Israelis, and only four of every 100,000 Australians. That low death toll is a tremendous upside. What remains to be seen is whether Australia can maintain that performance without permanently ending core attributes of life in a liberal democracy, including freedom of movement, peaceable assembly, and basic privacy.
    Thoughts?
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 09-03-2021 at 13:52.
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  12. #1212
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    The trade-off for security versus liberty is always difficult. The problem with giving up liberties is the tendencies for them to not be temporary. WW2 would not have been won without the UK and US curtailing liberties, the triumph of their systems though was the resumption of those liberties after the war.
    In the current hyper-partisan political climate in all liberal democracies there's just an extreme distrust of government. When I see the liberal/anarchist types here band together with the libertarians/anti-government right wingers here to protest against COVID-19 restrictions it just blows the mind. Even with hurricanes and lava flows I've seen no shortage of people angry that they aren't free to just travel anywhere despite our efforts to curtail looting or in the case of lava keep people safe from SO2 gas clouds and so on.
    Part of the problem with COVID-19 is that there's no clear end-date which is what people are worried about. If it becomes an endemic virus that will occasionally have waves spread around the globe the emergency measures will seem way too permanent. Part of the problem was also that the lockdowns have the effect that people see the opposite of what they should see. Low infections due to lockdown makes people think the risk is low so they violate the measures or the measures are lifted too soon and then end up spreading it anyhow meaning that just when the virus could be eliminated in the community it relapses making the curtailment of freedoms just look ineffective and a power grab.

    Having to download an app and be tracked by the government is effective. In the US at least I think it is a bridge too far short of international travelers in quarantine (depends on each state though). So long as the 'app' goes away in Australia once COVID goes down to a manageable level then the loss of liberties temporarily was worth it, clearly they aren't there to judge yet though.
    Last edited by spmetla; 09-04-2021 at 04:07.

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  13. #1213

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Too often Friedersdorf indulges in this kind of overheated, undercooked, rhetoric.

    The app is voluntary. The more salient concern is practicality. I'm assuming the app is not intended to keep people glued to their charged phones 24 hours a day, since that's an impossible demand and would necessitate constant police intervention if treated legalistically (whereas the app is touted as reducing the need for police checkups). Or maybe the followup call preceding the dispatch of compliance officers would accommodate that, but if you miss the text for a valid reason you might easily miss the call. Also, I don't understand why Australia is still mandating 2 week self-isolation; 24-hour (or less) PCR testing should be ubiquitous by now, stop wasting people's time.

    The priority for Australia is to secure more vaccine and mandate it quickly. Not even a third of Australians are fully vaccinated - meanwhile, millions of doses are expiring here in the US. New Zealand too. Maybe they thought their elimination policies enabled them to slow-walk vaccination, but Delta has changed the rules. The Australian government seems to agree on the urgency of the matter now, having purchased or swapped millions more doses in the very recent past.
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  14. #1214

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Vitiate Man.

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  15. #1215
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    I'm so fed up with this horse-shit that I don't even care anymore... Go ahead and play Russian-roulette with COVID. If you lose, then more oxygen for the rest of us.....
    High Plains Drifter

  16. #1216
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    And the man who aided and abetted this will never be brought to account:

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/15-sc...b0eab0ad99a1ca

    "15 Miami-Dade public school staff members die of COVID in just 10 days."
    Florida is in the grip of its deadliest wave of COVID-19 since the start of the pandemic. As of mid-August, the state was averaging 244 deaths a day, eclipsing the previous peak of 227 a year ago. The state reported 2,345 deaths and over 129,000 cases this week. Hospitals have had to rent refrigerated units to store bodies.
    Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis, who has dismissed the importance of COVID-19 vaccinations and signed an executive order banning mask mandates at schools, issued no comment on the astounding death rate in the county schools system.
    So besides cooking the books to make Florida's situation seem less worse than it is, DeSantis has "no comment" on the carnage happening in his state...
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  17. #1217
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    I'm so fed up with this horse-shit that I don't even care anymore... Go ahead and play Russian-roulette with COVID. If you lose, then more oxygen for the rest of us.....
    Every day I read posts from friends and other people in healthcare who are at their wits end, and every day my patience continues to erode for the anti-vaxxers. I know I'm supposed to be kind, generous, and forgiving, but these past few months my heart has hardened. I read articles like this and my mind snaps to the opinion that hospitals should just start rejecting care for the willingly unvaccinated, to save the healthcare workers who are exhausted and breaking down. If there is an unvaxxed Covid patient and a vaxxed patient who is having a heart attack, give the bed to the vaxxed person, the unvaxxed can try to find another bed somewhere else if they want to start listening to doctors all of a sudden.

    Then I remind myself how that's a horribly cruel thing to think and I snap out of it. And then I read another story the next day and the cycle continues. I just dont know how people can remain even the slightest bit optimistic about the future.
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  18. #1218
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    It's a crazy world and these people are living in alternate reality it seems. One of my coffee milling clients recently got COVID (he's unvaccinated), despite being told he had COVID, being hospitalized and put on a ventilator, and still having no sense of smell or taste after recovery he insists he just had some bad pneumonia!

    As my mom and sister believe this nonsense too I can only hope that they don't get it too and won't start ill-wishing. I can't talk to them about COVID anymore though as it's always just an argument, they're convinced that I'm brainwashed by the government so matter what evidence I produce they don't budge in their opinion. Some people only learn when it happens to them unfortunately and some like my milling client won't even believe then. Hawaii is safer than most places but that Delta variant has gotten quite a few people I know that were vaccinated too, though they were thankfully not hospitalized which only proves the case for the vaccine.

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    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  19. #1219
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    Every day I read posts from friends and other people in healthcare who are at their wits end, and every day my patience continues to erode for the anti-vaxxers. I know I'm supposed to be kind, generous, and forgiving, but these past few months my heart has hardened. I read articles like this and my mind snaps to the opinion that hospitals should just start rejecting care for the willingly unvaccinated, to save the healthcare workers who are exhausted and breaking down. If there is an unvaxxed Covid patient and a vaxxed patient who is having a heart attack, give the bed to the vaxxed person, the unvaxxed can try to find another bed somewhere else if they want to start listening to doctors all of a sudden.

    Then I remind myself how that's a horribly cruel thing to think and I snap out of it. And then I read another story the next day and the cycle continues. I just dont know how people can remain even the slightest bit optimistic about the future.
    Take solace that humanity has taken this approach each time there is a disaster and humanity continues. Those at the front line are inevitably the ones that suffer for very little reward.

    As I'm sure you're aware, hostility only entrenches positions and conspiracy theories really tend to be good at "self healing" where evidence is more proof of the dark manipulations.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
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  20. #1220
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Take solace that humanity has taken this approach each time there is a disaster and humanity continues. Those at the front line are inevitably the ones that suffer for very little reward.

    As I'm sure you're aware, hostility only entrenches positions and conspiracy theories really tend to be good at "self healing" where evidence is more proof of the dark manipulations.

    I understand, though I disagree about the bit about conspiracy theories being self healing, at least not anymore with Facebook and the internet. People who buy into them aren't exposing themselves to counter points of view, they only entrench themselves into their bubble. I remember reading interviews with nurses who talk about patients who refuse to believe Covid is a thing even as they draw their last breaths. So I am skeptical we will naturally find our way out of this.

    Meanwhile-

    President Joe Biden on Thursday imposed stringent new vaccine rules on federal workers, large employers and health care staff in a sweeping attempt to contain the latest surge of Covid-19.

    The new requirements could apply to as many as 100 million Americans, according to the White House, and amount to Biden's strongest push yet to require vaccines for much of the country.
    "We've been patient, but our patience is wearing thin," Biden said of Americans who still refuse vaccinations, casting his new measures as necessary to push the minority of the nation that still hasn't been inoculated into getting shots.

    He said Americans who have received vaccinations were growing "frustrated" with the 80 million people who have not. And he acknowledged the new steps would not provide a quick fix.

    ...

    In his speech, the President directed the Labor Department to require all businesses with 100 or more employees ensure their workers are either vaccinated or tested once a week. Companies could face thousands of dollars in fines per employee if they don't comply.

    Biden has signed an executive order requiring all government employees be vaccinated against Covid-19, with no option of being regularly tested to opt out. The President also signed an order directing the same standard be applied to employees of contractors who do business with the federal government.
    So this will either make great strides in getting people vaccinated, or set off a powder keg of resentment. Hard to say which way it will go.
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  21. #1221

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Yes, finally.

    NEW: The President will announce that all employers with 100 or more employees will be required to mandate COVID-19 vaccines or require testing at least once a week, and they’ll have to provide paid time off.

    The new rule will impact over 80 million workers in private sector.

    COVID-19 vaccinations will also be required for more than 17 million health care workers at hospitals and other facilities that receive Medicare or Medicaid reimbursement—roughly 50K providers. (This covers a majority of health care workers nationwide.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    I'm so fed up with this horse-shit that I don't even care anymore... Go ahead and play Russian-roulette with COVID. If you lose, then more oxygen for the rest of us.....
    There's all sorts of stories.

    Such as

    Students at a school in Manchester, MI, instigated by parents, refuse to comply with the mask mandate and enter school. This is the next phase - school boards can enact policies, but someone also has to enforce them.
    https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/s...38694933942277 [VIDEO]

    More video of crazy #karen following my daughter and her mom coughing at them. Lancaster county has a mask mandate right now.
    https://twitter.com/RoBeastRo/status...56014368919552 [VIDEO - Content warning]


    One of the Drs. my wife works with was telling her about a recent Covid patient of his.

    1. The guy was unvaccinated
    2. The guy had self-medicated with Ivermectin
    3. Even though lung-transplants units are backlogged, they miraculously found a match available for him.
    4. Lung transplant facility requires a Covid vaccination within a reasonable timeframe after the transplant to be eligible for the transplant.
    5. Guy’s wife refuses to sign the vaccination commitment form.
    6. Guy dies.
    We love to see a principled conservative.

    There's a whole subreddit devoted to similar stories.

    Unfortunately, one conservative principle du jour is "kamikaze."

    Heartbreaking plea from awardee Mark’s sister. Mark also infected their elderly vaccinated father Walter. Walter died yesterday.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    Every day I read posts from friends and other people in healthcare who are at their wits end, and every day my patience continues to erode for the anti-vaxxers. I know I'm supposed to be kind, generous, and forgiving, but these past few months my heart has hardened. I read articles like this and my mind snaps to the opinion that hospitals should just start rejecting care for the willingly unvaccinated, to save the healthcare workers who are exhausted and breaking down. If there is an unvaxxed Covid patient and a vaxxed patient who is having a heart attack, give the bed to the vaxxed person, the unvaxxed can try to find another bed somewhere else if they want to start listening to doctors all of a sudden.

    Then I remind myself how that's a horribly cruel thing to think and I snap out of it. And then I read another story the next day and the cycle continues. I just dont know how people can remain even the slightest bit optimistic about the future.
    On trying to convince a family member to take the Covid vaccine and being told that all vaccines are a fraud perpetrated on the gullible: Ah it, I don't care.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    As I'm sure you're aware, hostility only entrenches positions and conspiracy theories really tend to be good at "self healing" where evidence is more proof of the dark manipulations.
    It is said that conspiracism is both hard and brittle, hard in that it resists penetration of information unfit to the model, brittle in that unraveling a single "loose thread" in the worldview can shatter the whole edifice (to mix metaphors), especially if the individual finds it for themselves. What constitutes the fatal weakness for any given conspiracist is unpredictable, and can include the most innocuous factual happenings upon or logical symmetries.
    Vitiate Man.

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    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  22. #1222
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    My only comforting thought is that perhaps this will make 2022 and 2024 easier.
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  23. #1223
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    I understand, though I disagree about the bit about conspiracy theories being self healing, at least not anymore with Facebook and the internet. People who buy into them aren't exposing themselves to counter points of view, they only entrench themselves into their bubble. I remember reading interviews with nurses who talk about patients who refuse to believe Covid is a thing even as they draw their last breaths. So I am skeptical we will naturally find our way out of this.
    Apologies if I was not clear - it is the conspiracy that tends to self heal - any evidence you provide is just proof that Big Pharma / the Deep State / whoever has the power to suppress the truth and concoct propaganda.

    What evidence can one truly find oneself when the root cause is a virus? The tests we all do mainly are made in China...

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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  24. #1224

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Friedersdorf doing his thing again.




    Samurai and spmetla, on penny-wisdom/pound-foolishness.

    In the pandemic’s early days, there was much high-minded talk about vaccine equity. “No one is safe until everyone is safe,” the international bodies and philanthropic organizations correctly observed. Covax, a multibillion-dollar program bankrolled by nonprofits and global health bodies, aimed to leverage massive buying power to ensure poor nations’ timely access to vaccine doses. Rich countries proceeded to slow-walk delivery of their financial pledges to Covax, limiting its ability to ink timely deals. At the same time, wealthy nations engaged in a bidding war for first dibs on doses, pushing up the price pharmaceutical companies felt comfortable charging the philanthropic endeavor.
    [...]
    In July, the International Monetary Fund estimated vaccinating “at least 40 percent of the population in all countries by the end of 2021 and at least 60 percent by the first half of 2022” would cost roughly $50 billion. That price has proven too steep for the wealthy world. Even the United States — whose humanitarian impulses ostensibly led it to invest $2 trillion into “democracy promotion” in Afghanistan — has declined to cough up a significant fraction of that sum. Today, vaccinating 40 percent of every country by year’s end looks utopian. According to the World Health Organization, only nine African countries have vaccinated 10 percent of their people.
    [...]
    The United States has contributed more to the global vaccination drive than any other country, but our contributions have nevertheless been paltry, especially when viewed in light of our resources. America did donate 500 million Pfizer doses to low-income countries. Yet the Biden administration financed that donation by diverting hundreds of millions of dollars that it had previously pledged for vaccination drives in those countries, according to the New York Times.
    [...]
    America’s efforts to expand global vaccine production have also been lackluster. A group of 116 congressional Democrats has called for adding to the party’s $3.5 trillion spending bill a $34 billion investment in global COVID vaccine manufacturing. The White House has yet to approve. Meanwhile, despite America’s official support for waiving patents on COVID vaccines, it has done little to pressure Pfizer and Moderna into transferring their technology to other countries with spare vaccine production capacity, such as South Korea.
    But it is also a betrayal of the rich world’s own enlightened self-interest. The same IMF report that put the price of a comprehensive global vaccination drive at $50 billion also estimated that such a drive would yield $9 trillion worth of benefits by 2025, with “over 40 percent of this gain going to advanced economies as stronger recoveries in the rest of the world raises demand for their goods, and through stronger confidence effects at home as the pandemic ends durably.” The report goes on to note that this gain would translate into an extra $1 trillion in tax revenue for advanced economies, “which means that funding this proposal may possibly be the highest-return public investment ever.” The G20 didn’t take the IMF up on that offer. Now we’re living in the counterfactual.
    [...]
    As Bloomberg reported this week, Delta’s resurgence is depressing global growth, while pandemic-induced factory closures in Southeast Asia are further disrupting global supply chains. Together, these developments could revive “stagflation”: the simultaneous occurrence of weak demand (as public health problems limit hiring and investment) and high prices (as production delays yield a scarcity of critical inputs for popular goods).
    If the COVID pandemic is the defining crisis of our moment, climate change is the primary one of our century. And the dynamics that facilitated COVID’s resurgence this summer also threaten to preempt an expeditious green transition. Any program of rapid decarbonization in the U.S. would require increasing the relative cost of carbon-intensive activities and modes of living. Which is to say: It would require some Americans to accept a permanent change in their lifestyles, for the sake of making ecological decline less severe in the future, and thus hypothetically saving the lives of people they care about (assuming that foreign nations emulate our example). Yet a sizable portion of U.S. citizens just proved unwilling to accept a modest and temporary imposition on their personal liberty (wearing a mask, getting a shot), for the sake of immediately enhancing their own personal safety, while accelerating the end of a pandemic that’s already killed hundreds of thousands of their compatriots. A just transition will also require rich nations to transfer green technology and financing to rising powers like China and India, so as to aid their sustainable development, at some geopolitical risk. Yet the wealthy world is right now proving itself unwilling to transfer mRNA technology or adequate vaccine-drive financing to low-income countries — actions that carry no geopolitical risk, and massive economic and public health benefits for the donor countries themselves.

    All of which is to say: Humanity can’t meet the challenges of the Anthropocene without recognizing our collective interdependence.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 09-11-2021 at 20:11.
    Vitiate Man.

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  25. #1225
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    It would require some Americans to accept a permanent change in their lifestyles, for the sake of making ecological decline less severe in the future, and thus hypothetically saving the lives of people they care about (assuming that foreign nations emulate our example). Yet a sizable portion of U.S. citizens just proved unwilling to accept a modest and temporary imposition on their personal liberty (wearing a mask, getting a shot), for the sake of immediately enhancing their own personal safety, while accelerating the end of a pandemic that’s already killed hundreds of thousands of their compatriots.
    I've stated this months ago (my post concerning a neighbor who'd rather spend $80,000 on a new Cadillac than upgrade ancient windows and insulate his home). I don't see it happening (wide-spread life-style changes) and unfortunately, there is noone around to issue this command: "Klaatu barada nikto".

    Meanwhile, despite America’s official support for waiving patents on COVID vaccines, it has done little to pressure Pfizer and Moderna into transferring their technology to other countries with spare vaccine production capacity
    Check the connection between Biden and his long-time Congressional buddy Sen Chris Coons. Then look into the Coons' family ties with Big Pharma....
    High Plains Drifter

  26. #1226
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Not that anyone gives a shit anymore, but the US just passed this grim milestone, making it the worst disaster in terms of human life, in US history:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...8-flu-pandemic

    Covid-19 has now killed as many Americans as the 1918-19 flu pandemic – more than 675,000. While the Delta variant-fueled surge in infections may have peaked, US deaths are more than 1,900 a day on average – the highest level since early March – and the country’s overall toll topped 675,000 Monday, according to the count kept by Johns Hopkins University, though the real number is believed to be higher.

    Before Covid-19, the 1918-19 flu was universally considered the worst pandemic disease in human history. Whether the current scourge ultimately proves deadlier is unclear. The 1918-19 influenza pandemic killed 50 million victims globally at a time when the world had one-quarter the population it does now. Global deaths from Covid-19 now stand at more than 4.6 million.
    [The 4.6 million figure is almost certainly a gross undercount]
    High Plains Drifter

  27. #1227
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Here in the US, we are cutting our own throats (almost literally):

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ndemic-burnout

    Beginning last March, Alexandra estimates that she and her colleagues worked the equivalent of three full-time years in 12 months. “There was no overtime, there was no hazard pay,” Alexandra recalls. Throughout the public health department where she worked, symptoms of anxiety, depression and stress-related physical maladies were commonplace among staff.
    The results of a nationwide CDC survey of public health workers, released this July, were revealing. Of the more than 26,000 surveyed individuals working in public health departments across the United States, more than half reported recent symptoms of at least one major mental health condition. Their reported prevalence of PTSD was 10 to 20% higher than in frontline medical workers and the general public.

    Some public health workers, including Alexandra, cite a lack of cooperation from elected officials as a driving source of widespread overwork and discontent. Others even say they have faced pressure from elected officials to alter their findings to fit a political agenda. “When they didn’t like how our [data on] vaccination coverage by race/ethnicity was looking, they actually asked me – the least senior member of the health department – to edit the data to artificially inflate BIPOC categories,” alleges Kristine, an epidemiologist at a Connecticut health department. (Her name has been changed out of fear for her job.)
    Meanwhile, public health workers are at the receiving end of mounting resentment. Since last March, threats against public health officials have increased. In a high-profile incident this past July, an angry crowd targeted Dr Faisal Khan – the acting director of the St Louis department of health – at a meeting on mask mandates. The disgruntled attendees lobbed racial epithets and surrounded Khan after the meeting like a mob.

    The public health workforce had been shrinking before the pandemic, but Covid-19 is accelerating the downward trend. Across the US, as of late last year, more than 180 public health officials had been fired or resigned from their posts in 38 states. Current public health resignation numbers are probably much higher, especially once staff-level positions are taken into account. All the while, public health departments have faced budget cuts and challenges to their power.
    “I worry that the field is going to [keep losing] a lot of people – people who are nearing retirement age, but also the people around my age,” says Rey, the public health data analyst in New York City. Though relatively new to the job, she has seen many of her contemporaries opt to throw in the towel. “They are already burned out and are leaving the workforce in droves,” she says.
    God help us when the next pandemic happens (and there will be another one) if something isn't done about about addressing this problem.

    Then there's this nut-job appointed by Trump wannabee Gov. DeSantis:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...urgeon-general

    A medical professor who is opposed to mask and vaccine mandates, attacked concern over the pandemic as “Covid mania” and likened the eating of fruit and vegetables to the benefits of vaccination has been named as Florida’s new surgeon general.

    At a press conference on Tuesday to mark his appointment, Lapado said he would “reject fear” in his dealing with the pandemic. “Florida will completely reject fear,” he said. “Fear is done.”

    Like DeSantis, Ladapo is opposed to mask mandates and has said that getting vaccinated is a personal choice that individuals have to make. “There is nothing special about them compared to any other preventive measure,” he said about vaccines, despite widespread evidence that unvaccinated people are overwhelmingly more likely to become seriously ill or die from Covid.
    How about this for fear, "Scott Atlas Jr.":

    https://apnews.com/article/health-fl...90c3a0f0369bb3

    Florida surpassed 50,000 coronavirus deaths since the pandemic began, health officials reported Thursday, with more than one fourth of those succumbing this summer as the state battled a fierce surge in infections fueled by the delta variant.

    Florida has the 11th worst per-capita death rate among the 50 states, the CDC says. New Jersey, Mississippi and New York have had the worst, but Florida has risen from the 17th spot in the past two weeks.

    Overall, about one in every 400 Florida residents who were alive in March 2020 has since died of COVID-19. Only cancer and heart disease have killed more Floridians during that period, according to state health department statistics. Those have each killed about 70,000 Floridians.
    The only thing that's going to save Floridians, is rising sea levels that will force residents to move elsewhere...
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 09-23-2021 at 13:49.
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  28. #1228

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    On how Australians feel about the freedom to have a Covid death rate an order of magnitude lower than the US or Europe.

    Looking at the advanced economies of the Pacific and the Antipode, over the summer - or even over the past month - they've been vaccinating at a propitious rate. I'm speaking of 20% a month of the population fully and partially vaccinated each. Where the US will be fortunate to have 66% of the population fully vaccinated by the end of the year, Australia and the rest will likely reach 70% easily, pushing 80% perhaps, despite the later start. And of course China already claims to have fully inoculated 75% of its population - over a billion people - but that's a simple proposition in their case.
    Vitiate Man.

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  29. #1229

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    In April I was not predicting it would get this bad. I expected our vaccination rate would be 10 points higher than it currently is.



    Excluding the months of April and May 2020, New York's Covid death rate is maybe 5% of Florida's. Florida in Summer 2021 had higher Covid death rates than New York City ever saw! And many red areas in various states have experienced even worse. For example, Idaho patients have been overwhelming Washington hospitals for a while now (even as Washington's own rural hospitals have been under local pressure for conceivable reasons).

    Now I'm only sad that the effect won't rise to demographic electoral significance, and would find it appropriate for Washington's Gov. Inslee to wear one of these:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Montmorency; 09-28-2021 at 06:36.
    Vitiate Man.

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  30. #1230
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Two things:

    In an article this month for Breitbart, the right-wing website formerly run by Steve Bannon, John Nolte argued that the partisan gap in vaccination rates was part of a liberal plot. Liberals like Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Anthony Fauci and Howard Stern have tried so hard to persuade people to get vaccinated, because they know that Republican voters will do the opposite of whatever they say, Nolte wrote.
    When all else fails, claim conspiracy... And something I said earlier...send ALL of our excess vaccine doses overseas, keeping only enough for those who can prove they voted Democrat in the last election. The ensuing shit-storm from Republicans claiming their rights are being violated would be hilarious...

    “Right now, a countless number of Trump supporters believe they are owning the left by refusing to take a lifesaving vaccine,” Nolte wrote. “In a country where elections are decided on razor-thin margins, does it not benefit one side if their opponents simply drop dead?”
    Republicans are just "Dying to Own the Libs"...sounds like a tee-shirt to me...
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 09-28-2021 at 07:14.
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