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Thread: Coronavirus / COVID-19

  1. #841
    Senior Member Senior Member Yeti Sports 1.5 Champion, Snowboard Slalom Champion, Monkey Jump Champion, Mosquito Kill Champion Csargo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    I continually wonder what freedoms these people are talking about, in reference to wearing a mask.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh View Post
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  2. #842
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Csargo View Post
    I continually wonder what freedoms these people are talking about, in reference to wearing a mask.
    It's basically freedom to declare political allegiance. The far right in the US and UK have set themselves apart from experts of all colours, so whatever experts of any kind say, they resist, as visibly as possible.

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  3. #843
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    I continually wonder what freedoms these people are talking about, in reference to wearing a mask.
    The link in post #816 sums it up pretty well. Despite being a cartoon, it covers all the dumb-ass reasons that people have....and the all too often result
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  4. #844
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Trump wore a mask today and of course the Beltway media is falling all over themselves to praise him for it even though he should have done this four months ago. And Trump's team is calling this Biden's death knell for some reason? Trump is looking a bit saggy lately too.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19










    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i'm not sure the Swedish model can yet be deemed to be discredited.
    The Swedish model is a bad one because its premises are known to unfounded. The premise is that a single consistent baseline, achieved largely by individual action, would prove less disruptive and costly compared to a more discretionary top-down approach that, the argument went, would not in the whole timeframe of the pandemic reduce total deaths in proportion to other countries. We know this to be wrong for sure now, but even beforehand it was predictable that - depending on the starting conditions - a lockdown could suppress the curve and save lives now in order to buy time for a governmental, economic, social response to save even more lives later, through prevention as well as superior treatment (be that through maintaining capacity or by identifying sub-blockbuster enhancements in course of care).

    The schema was always supposed to be (assuming flat-footedness at onset of community spread, since readying prior to widespread transmission obviates the need for initial stringent measures, hint hint climate skeptics):

    1. Apply measures as strict as they need to be in the circumstances to break transmission and flatten the curve.
    2. Build up infrastructure, technology, and protocols for testing, tracing, and treatment.
    3. Once the public health indicators are congenial and preparations are in place, lessen the restrictions to a new baseline for the duration.
    4. A robust public health framework can now contain any acute flareups with resort merely to more moderate or targeted controls.

    The lockdown enables the longer-term sustainable approach. If done properly. In places like Israel, Brazil, the United States - you know, struggling authoritarian societies - there was basically none of step 2+, or on a small scale by organizations and sub-jurisdictions at best. Maybe countries like the UK haven't done enough, or sound governance was preempted by poor leadership. Others like South Korea and Germany seem to have figured it out.

    The study you quote from my post, by the way, suspects that Swedish hospitals were preemptively triaging beds and resources to avoid being overwhelmed (i.e. leaving people to die outside the system), and that early stringent controls are the way to avert such developments (compared to late controls). The positive aspects identified are basically the same as we discussed in April and May, that the Swedish public has relatively-high individual adherence to recommendations - the implication being that ultimately governments cannot succeed without the cooperation of their people, so this aspect of Swedish performance is favorable.

    Model predictions suggest that the Swedish public-health mandates alone would have
    resulted in approximately 40-fold more patients (median 42, 90% CI 42-43; statistical
    sampling not limiting on error) who could benefit from ICU care than ICU beds available prepandemic
    (Fig. 4). Voluntary self-isolation of 50% of the population reduced this to 5-fold
    (90% CI 4.8-5.1), and strong suppressive mandates would have reduced it to 1.5-fold (90%
    CI 1.4-1.5). As part of its public-health response, Sweden approximately doubled its number
    of ICU beds during spring 2020. However, not all ICU beds were occupied—the number of
    unique patients receiving COVID ICU care was approximately 53% of the total COVID diagnosed deaths
    at the start of May 2020 [14, 36] To analyze this, we examined the demographic characteristics
    of patients diagnosed with COVID-19, patients admitted to the
    ICU, and patients who died with a confirmed COVID-19 diagnosis [25]. Analyzed by
    categorical age group, older Swedish patients with confirmed COVID-19 were more likely to
    die than to be admitted to the ICU (Fig. 5), suggesting that predicted prognosis may have
    been a factor in ICU admission. This likely reduced ICU load at the cost of more high-risk
    patients dying outside the ICU.

    What this actually means is that a Swedish approach, if tried in most countries, would produce catastrophic results rather than merely poor ones. It's frightening to imagine what America would look like in those circumstances, as despite our haphazard, inconsistent, and self-sabotaging response with a significantly more unruly population, almost all of the country has had at various times more government controls imposed than Sweden has at any point.

    It is important to note that the blavatnik data does not attempt to measure the effectiveness of caronavirus policy, only its stringency in application.
    So graphing it against reported cases as a measure of its accuracy might miss the point.
    That's what I'm saying. Can you tell me how the indicator is defined and constructed such that the French government response may be more "stringent" than the Chinese one?

    The graphs are from their github.


    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    The impressive efforts done by the country and the Minister of Health in the first 2 months were almost top notch, we had excellent stopping of the spread.

    Measures of relaxation, even in the slightest, wrecked absolutely everything. Austria just blocked our entry into their country.
    If a sound public health regime is in place, it increases the ease and likelihood of snapping back in the face of any acute surge, as well as reducing the chances of such a surge occurring in the first place. Hopefully it goes well.

    When a country's horrible new wave is something in the dozens or hundreds (e.g. Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia (the latter two making similar mistakes leading to the surge)), and is subsequently brought under control with moderate restrictions, that's pretty much things going as well as they can be expected to.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    As has been said in this thread before, there is a notable percentage of folks for whom the idea of putting life on hold for a year to a year and a half is intolerable, so they are willing to accept the casualties and drive on.

    I would expect this percentage to correlate strongly with persons who self define themselves as being "never sick" or "tough" since they are of the belief they will beat the disease if they get it.
    There's a difference between 'I don't want to sacrifice to minimize the public health risks or risks to myself' and 'I will strenuously maximize the risks to myself and the public, checkmate libturd.' Even worse that the entire Republican Party adopts and implements the latter as public policy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    "Intolerable" may have two readings:
    1. When you are just tired of limitations and want everything to be as it used to be before.
    2. When you are running out of money because you are out of work.
    While the first is what could be criticized, the second is a survival issue so I can't blame the people of the second category for their readiness to take a risk.
    I'll post about it tomorrow perhaps, but it has been repeatedly noted here that (2) is an issue of public policy that many countries have decisively handled. Relief legislation in March slowed business closures and decreased the pre-pandemic poverty rate. Those who found the action involved to be ideologically unpalatable have been pursuing the worst of both worlds, limiting worker power as a social value in order to exacerbate both mass death and long-term economic damage. It's a death cult, the active undermining of both parochial political interests and the public good, even along the simplest, lowest-cost measures, and it's criminal.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 07-12-2020 at 04:40.
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  6. #846
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I'll post about it tomorrow perhaps, but it has been repeatedly noted here that (2) is an issue of public policy that many countries have decisively handled.
    The poorer countries have not, so for their populations it is a matter of physical survival.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  7. #847
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    @ Monty

    "What this actually means is that a Swedish approach, if tried in most countries, would produce catastrophic results rather than merely poor ones. It's frightening to imagine what America would look like in those circumstances, as despite our haphazard, inconsistent, and self-sabotaging response with a significantly more unruly population, almost all of the country has had at various times more government controls imposed than Sweden has at any point."

    I take the point entirely that the swedish method is entirely reliant on a high level of public trust, such that calls for disciplined self-action will be heeded. And, that this would not appear to be a method america could follow. Would the uk have have sufficiently high level-levels of public trust, there is certainly anecdotal evidence from gov't ministers suggesting that the initial lockdown was never meant to halt business to such a suffocating extent, and that the take of the furlough scheme was never meant to be so high.

    "Can you tell me how the indicator is defined and constructed such that the French government response may be more "stringent" than the Chinese one?
    The graphs are from their github."

    No, becuase i haven't looked. Would seem strange if there methodology was not published.
    I have no doubt the graphs were published using the data, but you initial response seemed to question the validity of the survey's methodology based on the 'curious' results of graphing stringency against reported cases. I'm pointing out that this is not what they're setting out to achieve, i.e. demonstrating a correlation between stringency and 'success'.
    In economic terms, they appear to be trying to measure the supply side, which when combined with the demand side (climate variables / ethnographic variables / population health), gives you the tools to assess 'success' via such metric of cases/deaths/etc.
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  8. #848
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    I take the point entirely that the swedish method is entirely reliant on a high level of public trust, such that calls for disciplined self-action will be heeded. And, that this would not appear to be a method america could follow. Would the uk...
    Dominic Cummings broke the Quarantine in the country. Since then, it was Cart Blanche "Do whatever" and the morons went out in force-full after this whilst it was more restrained prior to this.
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  9. #849
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    "Intolerable" may have two readings:
    1. When you are just tired of limitations and want everything to be as it used to be before.
    2. When you are running out of money because you are out of work.
    While the first is what could be criticized, the second is a survival issue so I can't blame the people of the second category for their readiness to take a risk.
    A fair rejoinder. In my, admittedly anecdotal, personal experience overhearing this sentiment the motivation was loss of money/profit/growth not imminent destitution. Coupled, I think, with number one on your list. Which explanation does not, at least wholly, refute your number two.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  10. #850

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19




    https://medium.com/@indica/the-plagu...a-53b20678a80e


    Florida and Texas account for a tenth of all new cases in the world, despite forming <1% of the human population. But let's not forget Arizona.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...arizona-ducey/

    When her father died of covid-19 last month, Kristin Urquiza minced no words assigning blame.

    Mark Urquiza, 65, should still be alive, his daughter wrote in a scathing obituary, published Wednesday in the Arizona Republic.

    “His death is due to the carelessness of the politicians who continue to jeopardize the health of brown bodies through a clear lack of leadership, refusal to acknowledge the severity of this crisis, and inability and unwillingness to give clear and decisive direction on how to minimize risk,” she wrote.

    The searing tribute encapsulates the fury of critics who say governments at multiple levels are failing at their most basic duty: keeping citizens safe. The obituary also nods at the outbreak’s disproportionate impact on black and Hispanic communities, which have experienced higher rates of coronavirus-related hospitalization and death.

    Among the leaders whom Kristin Urquiza feels failed her father, a Mexican American resident of Phoenix who worked in manufacturing, are Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey (R) and the Trump administration. Ducey, she said, “has blood on his hands” for beginning to reopen the state in early May, roughly three weeks before new infections started to rise quickly.
    Mark Urquiza rarely left the house while Arizona’s stay-at-home order was in place except to do his job, which was deemed essential, his daughter said. He started to go out with friends after Ducey and Trump said people could safely resume their normal lives, even as his daughter begged him to stay home.

    Kristin Urquiza remembers that as the state continued to reopen, her father told her the governor was encouraging residents to go out in public again. Mark Urquiza asked his daughter: Why would he do that if it was still dangerous?

    “Despite all of the effort that I had made to try to keep my parents safe, I couldn’t compete with the governor’s office and I couldn’t compete with the Trump administration,” Kristin Urquiza said.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    The link in post #816 sums it up pretty well. Despite being a cartoon, it covers all the dumb-ass reasons that people have....and the all too often result
    Toxic masculinity is an especially prominent factor IMO, in context of a primary appeal of Donald Trump being to Republican masculinity... as they understand the concept, you see.

    (Now that Trump is wearing a mask, all the right-wing commentary is suddenly about how he looks like a badass.)

    BTW, your link about the Gun Couple in the other thread is broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    The poorer countries have not, so for their populations it is a matter of physical survival.
    As it happens the precise nature of this fact is an important corollary of the other countries' outcomes, being that to the extent rich or large countries hamper their own recoveries through bad or negligent policy, the worse and more durable the knock-on effects against poorer countries, whose economies tend to be heavily reliant on tourism from or commodities exports to richer countries. We live in a win-win/lose-lose interconnected world, and we'd better act it fast.

    E.g. Unfortunately Mexico's AMLO has been another shocking failure in office when it comes to CV19 (though I'm given to understand he's had a mixed record at best through the rest of his admin), and I doubt Mexico can well afford a prospective eye-popping double-digit decline in GDP this year. But they won't recover anytime soon without their neighbor getting itself in order: "Pobre Mexico, tan lejos de dios y tan cerca de los Estados Unidos."

    And the Mexican economy was already in recession BEFORE 2020!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    @ Monty

    "What this actually means is that a Swedish approach, if tried in most countries, would produce catastrophic results rather than merely poor ones. It's frightening to imagine what America would look like in those circumstances, as despite our haphazard, inconsistent, and self-sabotaging response with a significantly more unruly population, almost all of the country has had at various times more government controls imposed than Sweden has at any point."

    I take the point entirely that the swedish method is entirely reliant on a high level of public trust, such that calls for disciplined self-action will be heeded. And, that this would not appear to be a method america could follow. Would the uk have have sufficiently high level-levels of public trust, there is certainly anecdotal evidence from gov't ministers suggesting that the initial lockdown was never meant to halt business to such a suffocating extent, and that the take of the furlough scheme was never meant to be so high.

    "Can you tell me how the indicator is defined and constructed such that the French government response may be more "stringent" than the Chinese one?
    The graphs are from their github."

    No, becuase i haven't looked. Would seem strange if there methodology was not published.
    I have no doubt the graphs were published using the data, but you initial response seemed to question the validity of the survey's methodology based on the 'curious' results of graphing stringency against reported cases. I'm pointing out that this is not what they're setting out to achieve, i.e. demonstrating a correlation between stringency and 'success'.
    In economic terms, they appear to be trying to measure the supply side, which when combined with the demand side (climate variables / ethnographic variables / population health), gives you the tools to assess 'success' via such metric of cases/deaths/etc.
    What I'm getting at is, if someone told you in plain language, "France's pandemic response has been more stringent than China's," one's minimally-informed response would likely be of bemusement. So how's that?

    To settle the issue I'll just look for their explanation. From the Oxford/Blavatnik page:

    original stringency index (which records the strictness of ‘lockdown style’ policies that primarily restrict people’s behaviour).
    From the WorldinData stringency index page (where, among others, Libya, Iraq, Moldova, the Philippines, and Guatemala are all ranked more stringent than China as of now):

    The Government Response Stringency Index is a composite measure based on nine response indicators including school closures, workplace
    closures, and travel bans, rescaled to a value from 0 to 100
    The specific policy and response categories are coded as follows:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    School closures:
    0 - No measures
    1 - recommend closing
    2 - Require closing (only some levels or categories,
    eg just high school, or just public schools)
    3 - Require closing all levels
    No data - blank

    Workplace closures:
    0 - No measures
    1 - recommend closing (or work from home)
    2 - require closing (or work from home) for some
    sectors or categories of workers
    3 - require closing (or work from home) all but essential workplaces (eg grocery stores, doctors)
    No data - blank

    Cancel public events:
    0- No measures
    1 - Recommend cancelling
    2 - Require cancelling
    No data - blank

    Restrictions on gatherings:
    0 - No restrictions
    1 - Restrictions on very large gatherings (the limit is above 1000 people)
    2 - Restrictions on gatherings between 100-1000 people
    3 - Restrictions on gatherings between 10-100 people
    4 - Restrictions on gatherings of less than 10 people
    No data - blank

    Close public transport:
    0 - No measures
    1 - Recommend closing (or significantly reduce volume/route/means of transport available)
    2 - Require closing (or prohibit most citizens from using it)

    Public information campaigns:
    0 -No COVID-19 public information campaign
    1 - public officials urging caution about COVID-19
    2 - coordinated public information campaign (e.g. across traditional and social media)
    No data - blank

    Stay at home:
    0 - No measures
    1 - recommend not leaving house
    2 - require not leaving house with exceptions for daily exercise, grocery shopping, and ‘essential’ trips
    3 - Require not leaving house with minimal exceptions (e.g. allowed to leave only once every few days, or only one person can leave at a time, etc.)
    No data - blank

    Restrictions on internal movement:
    0 - No measures
    1 - Recommend movement restriction
    2 - Restrict movement

    International travel controls:
    0 - No measures
    1 - Screening
    2 - Quarantine arrivals from high-risk regions
    3 - Ban on high-risk regions
    4 - Total border closure
    No data - blank

    Testing policy
    0 – No testing policy
    1 – Only those who both (a) have symptoms AND (b) meet specific criteria (eg key workers, admitted to hospital, came into contact with a known case, returned from overseas)
    2 – testing of anyone showing COVID-19 symptoms
    3 – open public testing (eg “drive through” testing available to asymptomatic people)
    No data

    Contract tracing
    0 - No contact tracing
    1 - Limited contact tracing - not done for all cases
    2 - Comprehensive contact tracing - done for all cases
    No data
    From the document on "Calculation and presentation of the Stringency Index 4.0" from one of these pages: Formulas.

    I dunno, I find it hard to believe that China could be said not to reach the highest rating for each of those indicators. Maybe you can check the underlying data, but I'm going to assume this is one of those situations skewed by lack of data for China along one or more of the parameters, which would input 0 to the formula for the ordinal value of the indicator. I think we had a case of this here a few years back on some ranking of human rights or child rights or whatever where the UK score plummeted year-on-year and below that of some countries one would assume do not have a superior enjoyment of rights; upon inspection it turned out that because the UK had failed to submit data on many measures that year these gaps were applied as minimum values (zero) to the formula, producing the dissonant score. It's one of those pitfalls of model construction I suppose, but I don't have the education or training to troubleshoot it.
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  11. #851
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    People in just about every country around the world have had plenty to say about how their governments have responded to the COVID-19 pandemic running the whole gamut from excellent to abysmal. What I don't see a whole lot of anymore is how the news industry has responded to the pandemic. I remember back in March when this thread was criticized as being "fear porn" (wish he'd come back with his opinion as of today). I also went back and perused this thread from the very first post to see how not only my own perception of this pandemic has changed, but everyone else's. An interesting exercise, to say the least.

    In one of my own posts (#98) I reread the link and the quote I lifted from it, and was stunned to see how prophetic Mr. Barry was in predicting how not only governmental response, but media response would shape how the public reacted to a pandemic. To reiterate the part I quoted:

    I recall participating in a pandemic “war game” in Los Angeles involving area public health officials. Before the exercise began, I gave a talk about what happened in 1918, how society broke down, and emphasized that to retain the public’s trust, authorities had to be candid. “You don’t manage the truth,” I said. “You tell the truth.” Everyone shook their heads in agreement. Next, the people running the game revealed the day’s challenge to the participants: A severe pandemic influenza virus was spreading around the world. It had not officially reached California, but a suspected case—the severity of the symptoms made it seem so—had just surfaced in Los Angeles. The news media had learned of it and were demanding a press conference.

    The participant with the first move was a top-ranking public health official. What did he do? He declined to hold a press conference, and instead just released a statement: More tests are required. The patient might not have pandemic influenza. There is no reason for concern. I was stunned. This official had not actually told a lie, but he had deliberately minimized the danger; whether or not this particular patient had the disease, a pandemic was coming. The official’s unwillingness to answer questions from the press or even acknowledge the pandemic’s inevitability meant that citizens would look elsewhere for answers, and probably find a lot of bad ones. Instead of taking the lead in providing credible information he instantly fell behind the pace of events. He would find it almost impossible to get ahead of them again. He had, in short, shirked his duty to the public, risking countless lives. And that was only a game.
    And with a few additional twists, that's what we have today here in the US. Our president indeed downplayed the virus while liberally dabbing his tweets with all sorts of mis-information, and except for his adoring followers, citizens indeed had to look elsewhere for answers. Instead of taking the lead, our president instead chose to politicize the greatest threat to American society in a hundred years, downplay the severity on our health and economy, and put this country behind the pace of this virus from which we are constantly falling further and further behind. It's gone much further than just risking lives, it's costing tens of thousands of lives that could have otherwise been saved.

    So, back to the news industry. After a little digging, I found this:

    https://techxplore.com/news/2020-06-...sh-covid-.html

    Overall, the study shows that although the coronavirus cases have fluctuated and even decreased, the number of news articles published on the pandemic have decreased at a faster rate than the number of COVID-19 cases. By evaluating spikes in media coverage, the researchers found that media outlets were more interested in novel events at the beginning of the pandemic.
    Say WHAT?

    When comparing COVID-19 news articles and the representation of the different bias ratings of news published pre-pandemic, the study showed that scientific and least-biased-rated news has been represented less since the pandemic began. However, the representation of left-, right-center-, right- and conspiracy-pseudoscience-rated news articles have increased since the pandemic.
    This! Use the link in the article to go to their "pandemic pulse tool". There are a bazillion parameters you can use to set up a social trend of your choosing and track the media response results. Hooked me for a couple of hours playing with different choices.

    Then a quick perusal of left-center-right media sources:

    https://www.allsides.com/topics/coro...rus&gsc.page=1

    I found this article to be stunningly spot-on, IMHO:

    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2767950

    The first error that thwarts effective policy making during crises stems from what economists have called the “identifiable victim effect.” Humans respond more aggressively to threats to identifiable lives, ie, those that an individual can easily imagine being their own or belonging to people they care about (such as family members) or care for (such as a clinician’s patients) than to the hidden, “statistical” deaths reported in accounts of the population-level tolls of the crisis.
    [...]a second reason for the broad endorsement of policies that prioritize saving visible, immediately jeopardized lives: that humans are imbued with a strong and neurally mediated tendency to predict outcomes that are systematically more optimistic than observed outcomes.
    A third driver of misguided policy responses is that humans are present biased, ie, people tend to prefer immediate benefits to even larger benefits in the future. Even if the tendency to prioritize visibly affected individuals could be resisted, many people would still place greater value on saving a life today than a life tomorrow. Thus, if escalating critical care capacity enables the prevention of certain deaths in the short term, it is a more attractive policy option than taking steps that would prevent more deaths over the long term.
    The fourth contributing factor is that virtually everyone is subject to omission bias, which involves the tendency to prefer that a harm occur by failure to take action rather than as direct consequence of the actions that are taken. This bias helps explain why some parents refuse to vaccinate their children, even when they understand that harms are more likely without vaccination.
    I'd copy/paste more stuff, but just read the damn article

    So what set me off about the media? Two things: All the current BS concerning getting kids back to school and about how "safe" they will be, yet paying only lip service to the safety of teachers and staff, many of whom are in high-risk categories; and the lip service being paid to the mental strain of our medical workers, especially how easily we take them for granted by tagging them as "heroes", which they are.

    Anyway, before the post-length patrol shows up....enough for now

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...9-compensation

    In interviews with lawyers and families across the nation, KHN found that healthcare workers – including nurses’ aides, physician assistants and maintenance workers – have faced denials or long-shot odds of getting benefits paid. In some cases, those benefits amount to an ambulance bill. In others, they would provide lifetime salary replacement for a spouse.

    Legal experts say that in some states Covid-19 falls into a long-standing category of diseases like a cold or the flu – conditions not covered by workers’ compensation – with no plans to change that. Other states force workers to prove they contracted the virus at work, rather than from a family member or in the community.
    “We are asking people to risk their lives every single day – not just doctors, nurses and first responders, but also nurses’ aides and grocery store clerks,” said Laurie Pohutsky, a Democratic Michigan lawmaker who introduced a bill to help essential workers get coverage more easily. “These people are heroes, but we have to actually back those words up with actions.”
    I state my case....
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-14-2020 at 04:24. Reason: updated
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  12. #852
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Dominic Cummings broke the Quarantine in the country. Since then, it was Cart Blanche "Do whatever" and the morons went out in force-full after this whilst it was more restrained prior to this.
    i'm afraid i believe that to be cobblers:
    there is flexibility in the regs, and it is open to interpretation.
    cummings seems to have used the flexibility interpreting his personal circumstances:
    a vulnerable minor who could not be properly cared for in london.
    non of this justifies the removal of agency from the general public in being able to make their own choices and be deemed responsible for those choices.
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  13. #853
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i'm afraid i believe that to be cobblers:
    there is flexibility in the regs, and it is open to interpretation.
    cummings seems to have used the flexibility interpreting his personal circumstances:
    a vulnerable minor who could not be properly cared for in london.
    non of this justifies the removal of agency from the general public in being able to make their own choices and be deemed responsible for those choices.
    Other people breaking lockdown: held responsible and fined. Fines not returnable.
    Dominic Cummings breaking lockdown: not held responsible, no action taken.

    Following rules and being held responsible if one broke those rules is for ordinary people. Not people like Dominic Cummings, Stanley Johnson, etc.

  14. #854
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Other people breaking lockdown: held responsible and fined. Fines not returnable.
    Dominic Cummings breaking lockdown: not held responsible, no action taken.

    Following rules and being held responsible if one broke those rules is for ordinary people. Not people like Dominic Cummings, Stanley Johnson, etc.
    Dare I say it, the vast majority of people who broke lockdown did not get caught or fined since we just don't have the number of police to process beaches filled with people or entire marches of people. The police did say they would have fined him had they caught him, so that is probably the same as for everyone else.

    To be clear - Cummings is an arrogant shit and was guilty as sin and managed to create an excuse that would pass the criminal standard to get him off but that's about it. Just like the MP who had to travel all the way to see his parents to give them medicines since no Pharmacist, GP nor neighbour was able to collect and deliver - technically allowed within the rules but frankly most likely an excuse since he was caught.

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  15. #855
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Following rules and being held responsible if one broke those rules is for ordinary people.
    Like these folks?

    https://metro.co.uk/2020/07/14/magal...-car-12985946/

    Now to be fair, there were tourists from Germany and other EU countries in Magaluf as well, and Spain was inviting something like this to happen when an entire district full of bars is opened all at once. But it shows that the younger generation of you Brits isn't any more responsible when it comes to this pandemic than ours here in the States. What DC did was a very bad look, no doubt, but those idiots are just petulant children with no regard of anyone but themselves.

    I've said this before, if those in the UK are so abhorred by Cummings, go to London and demand his removal. Otherwise move on......
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  16. #856
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Like these folks?

    https://metro.co.uk/2020/07/14/magal...-car-12985946/

    Now to be fair, there were tourists from Germany and other EU countries in Magaluf as well, and Spain was inviting something like this to happen when an entire district full of bars is opened all at once. But it shows that the younger generation of you Brits isn't any more responsible when it comes to this pandemic than ours here in the States. What DC did was a very bad look, no doubt, but those idiots are just petulant children with no regard of anyone but themselves.

    I've said this before, if those in the UK are so abhorred by Cummings, go to London and demand his removal. Otherwise move on......
    The British people are definitely voting him out in the next election. Hang on, they can't, as he's unelected.

    BTW, British exceptionalists are a-holes. The behaviour of that trash does not surprise me one bit.

  17. #857
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    The British people are definitely voting him out in the next election. Hang on, they can't, as he's unelected.
    What he should have done was to voluntarily pay the fine, and this whole business would probably have gone away on its' own
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  18. #858
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i'm afraid i believe that to be cobblers
    Anecdotal yes, cobblers, no.
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  19. #859
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Got a bit of a Sophie’s choice question here: I have to travel for one day in about a month from now. I’ll be staying within the northeast of the US where thankfully cases have been plateauing as of late.


    I have two travel options, go by train or by plane. Driving is not an option as I’m traveling to and from the destination on the same day. It’s a 3 hour train ride or a 1 hour plane ride. Which is the safer option? I’d be leaving at about 6:30 am on a Sunday and returning around 3-4pm on the same day.


    I’d love to drive but it’s a 4 hour drive and to do an 8 hour round trip in a single day is very taxing especially since I’d have to leave at 5am to arrive on time and I’ll be exhausted by the time I’d leave. Staying overnight at a hotel is not an option. What do people think is the safer choice? I’m thinking the train because I can’t imagine that many people are taking the train on a Sunday, but with a plane there’s less time for exposure since it’s a 1 hour flight versus a 3 hour train ride.
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  20. #860
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Depends on the airline. Heard stories that some are much better than others. Biggest thing for flying is whether the middle seats are kept empty, and what the protocol during boarding/debarking is. Should be back to front when boarding, and front to back when deplaning to keep close contact to a minimum.

    I love trains. Window seat....get to see the countryside.
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  21. #861
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    I would be flying on United. They seem pretty solid when it comes to their Covid policies, but then I heard about a friend of a friend who got sick after flying last month so perhaps the train would be safer. Amtrak said that they are only filling to half capacity, and besides, how many people would be taking a train at 6:30 in the morning on a Sunday?
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  22. #862
    Senior Member Senior Member Yeti Sports 1.5 Champion, Snowboard Slalom Champion, Monkey Jump Champion, Mosquito Kill Champion Csargo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    Got a bit of a Sophie’s choice question here: I have to travel for one day in about a month from now. I’ll be staying within the northeast of the US where thankfully cases have been plateauing as of late.


    I have two travel options, go by train or by plane. Driving is not an option as I’m traveling to and from the destination on the same day. It’s a 3 hour train ride or a 1 hour plane ride. Which is the safer option? I’d be leaving at about 6:30 am on a Sunday and returning around 3-4pm on the same day.


    I’d love to drive but it’s a 4 hour drive and to do an 8 hour round trip in a single day is very taxing especially since I’d have to leave at 5am to arrive on time and I’ll be exhausted by the time I’d leave. Staying overnight at a hotel is not an option. What do people think is the safer choice? I’m thinking the train because I can’t imagine that many people are taking the train on a Sunday, but with a plane there’s less time for exposure since it’s a 1 hour flight versus a 3 hour train ride.
    I don't know how much traffic a train station has in your area, but I would imagine exposure wise, train would be a safer bet depending on how many stops would be made along the way. Considering a lot of airlines aren't doing the distancing thing anymore and are just packing people in, and airports would in general have more foot-traffic than most stations.

    Best bet is to just get a good mask and wash your hands often/try not to touch unnecessary surfaces/etc.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    This virus is not to be taken lightly.



    Last edited by Shaka_Khan; 07-15-2020 at 05:25.
    Wooooo!!!

  24. #864
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Csargo View Post
    Best bet is to just get a good mask and wash your hands often/try not to touch unnecessary surfaces/etc.
    The surface contact transmission is actually very low risk. Not washing your hands for the whole journey and eating with those same hands is far less risky than being in a confined space with others - even with a mask. If you have the virus, you are aspirating thousands of virus bodies into the air constantly.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Daily deaths in Arizona match those in all of EU.

    Daily deaths in Florida match those in all of EU.


    AMLO in Mexico seems determined to conduct an experiment in Trumpism.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/...death-n1233627

    Deaths in Mexico from the coronavirus pandemic rose above 35,000 on Sunday, with the Latin American country overtaking Italy for the world’s fourth-highest death total, according to Reuters data... Lopez Obrador said he was briefed on the pandemic this past week and was optimistic. “The report is positive, good. The conclusion is that the pandemic is going down, that it is losing intensity,” he said in a video message.

    New Confirmed COVID cases per day animation.
    https://twitter.com/i/status/1282442536305426432

    Milan seems pretty crowded these days.
    https://www.skylinewebcams.com/en/we...ml?timelapse=1
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  26. #866
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Csargo View Post
    I don't know how much traffic a train station has in your area, but I would imagine exposure wise, train would be a safer bet depending on how many stops would be made along the way. Considering a lot of airlines aren't doing the distancing thing anymore and are just packing people in, and airports would in general have more foot-traffic than most stations.

    Best bet is to just get a good mask and wash your hands often/try not to touch unnecessary surfaces/etc.
    Decided to go with the train and make sure I can open the window by me. I should be ok I guess.
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  27. #867
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    Decided to go with the train and make sure I can open the window by me. I should be ok I guess.
    Couldn't you go by plane and make sure you could open the window by you? I'm sure I've seen that on camera before; Airplane! IIRC.

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  28. #868
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Daily deaths in Arizona match those in all of EU.

    Daily deaths in Florida match those in all of EU.
    This is obviously fake news created by socialists. They probably poison masks to spread covid. And covid doesn't exist. (Waves flag)
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  29. #869
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    We're in the second wave now. South Korea has a third wave already...

    ... but apparently Moderna said the vaccine is showing good signs.
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  30. #870
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    The Oxford vaccine is showing promise as well.
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