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  1. #1

    Default Coronavirus / COVID-19






    This guy began to report about this outbreak turning into a pandemic since last month. He mentions Thailand still accepting travellers from China. South Korea also still accepts travellers from China. It seems that the South Korean president is hoping for Xi Jinping to visit in order to raise the South Korean president's popularity and win the general election. The trade volume between the two countries is massive. Also, the South Korean president is pro-Communist Party of China. Many Koreans demand the removal of the South Korean president.



    And this guy talks about the economic impact.




    According to some of the whistleblowers in Wuhan, 5 million Wuhan people evacuated the city before the quarantine. The guy in the video below is one of the first whistleblowers after the doctors got arrested to hide the outbreak.

    Wooooo!!!

  2. #2
    Stranger in a strange land Moderator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Watching the Trump press conference about it today, and I am fairly confident that the US is not ready for this should it hit the US in large numbers.
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  3. #3
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    People are infectious about 2 weeks before they show any symptoms. Symptoms are basically flu-like. And for half the world it is winter.

    It is spread via the airborne route. One sneeze can go 8 metres and the droplets stay airborne for 10 minutes. Masks do little really. Slightly better on someone whose got it.

    Airborne diseases can not realistically be stopped. Ebola was close contact and that took ages. Hell, HIV is only close contact of bodily fluids and we can't block that spreading!

    Every country is doing lip service to the disease. Because doing something that works would cripple the country economically: shut all non essential flights and ships. Close all borders for all but essential travel. Decontaminate things that have to cross the border. Hell, probably have internal borders as well in all but the smallest countries. Forcibly quarantine everyone who has come near an infected person until they are cleared by one (preferably two or more) lab tests.

    If it gets bad (and I really hope it doesn't) many will die - hopefully just in the thousands. Mainly the old and sick so frankly no biggie to society. There are not enough ventilators or trained staff to deal with the patients - let alone proper kit to protect the staff (who would be insane to work in anything less than a proper airtight suit) - are they to be forced in at gun point to work?

    I do pity the CDC et al. 99.99% of the time it will be a different case of the sniffles. And they will be pilloried for making such a fuss. But who knows if or when it could mutate to something far more deadly and then they'll be crucified for not doing more earlier (even though they can hardly mobilise the National Guard).

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    many will die - hopefully just in the thousands. Mainly the old and sick so frankly no biggie to society
    Really?

    http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-persp...-23-death-rate

    Eighty-seven percent of patients were aged 30 to 79 years (38,680 cases). This age-group was the most affected by a wide margin, followed by ages 20 to 29 (3,619 cases, or 8%), those 80 and older (1,408 cases, or 3%), and 1% each in ages less than 10 and 10 to 19 years.
    30 to 79 by a "wide margin". While us "old" people are certainly more at risk, the death toll is hardly confined to those whose deaths would be "no biggie to society". And COVID-19 is just getting started outside of China. The age group death ratios may change from those quoted....
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Really?

    http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-persp...-23-death-rate



    30 to 79 by a "wide margin". While us "old" people are certainly more at risk, the death toll is hardly confined to those whose deaths would be "no biggie to society". And COVID-19 is just getting started outside of China. The age group death ratios may change from those quoted....
    Old or with co-morbidities. When the fit and healthy are dropping like with the 1919 pandemic then I'll properly start panicking.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    At least the fit and healthy wont have spent the last 4 years in gore filled ditches this time.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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  7. #7

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Old or with co-morbidities. When the fit and healthy are dropping like with the 1919 pandemic then I'll properly start panicking.

    Yeah, but life isn't going to be back to normal when that 2% fatality ends up taking away a grandparent or great uncle from every family.
    Expect people to be mad as fuck at anyone and everyone in government.


  8. #8

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    Watching the Trump press conference about it today, and I am fairly confident that the US is not ready for this should it hit the US in large numbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    People are infectious about 2 weeks before they show any symptoms. Symptoms are basically flu-like. And for half the world it is winter.

    It is spread via the airborne route. One sneeze can go 8 metres and the droplets stay airborne for 10 minutes. Masks do little really. Slightly better on someone whose got it.

    Airborne diseases can not realistically be stopped. Ebola was close contact and that took ages. Hell, HIV is only close contact of bodily fluids and we can't block that spreading!

    Every country is doing lip service to the disease. Because doing something that works would cripple the country economically: shut all non essential flights and ships. Close all borders for all but essential travel. Decontaminate things that have to cross the border. Hell, probably have internal borders as well in all but the smallest countries. Forcibly quarantine everyone who has come near an infected person until they are cleared by one (preferably two or more) lab tests.
    Trump press conference yesterday:

    President Donald Trump declared Wednesday that the U.S. is “very, very ready” for whatever the coronavirus threat brings, and he put his vice president in charge of overseeing the nation’s response.
    More:

    In a muddled, dishonest, rambling news conference from the White House press briefing room President Donald Trump for over an hour talked to reporters Wednesday evening about coronavirus, in an attempt to stave off three days of market near-collapse. He lied. He twisted the truth. He displayed little grasp of basic facts. He didn’t let the experts run the show.
    [...]
    The markets on Thursday rewarded his efforts with the DOW posting the largest single day loss in history.
    [...]
    “The losses mark the worse week for U.S. stocks since the financial crash of 2008.
    The Trump administration has known about coronavirus since at least December 1, 2019. It did nothing until January 29, when the White House posted a memo announcing President Trump’s Coronavirus Task Force. The task force did not even include the Surgeon General, making it clear the White House had little interest in communicating to the American people any sense of competence or delivering even an iota of public education.
    [...]
    Trump returned after two days of about 1000 point drops in the DOW each day. He hastily called a press conference for Wednesday at 6 PM. Just after it began at 6:30 PM it became clear there was not going to be a coronavirus czar, there was no real plan, other than to put in charge Vice President Mike Pence. Even a Fox News pundit eschewed that decision, noting Pence doesn’t believe in science, is not a doctor, and has a horrific record when it comes to public health – he oversaw an explosive HIV outbreak during which he decided to pray for guidance rather than listen to what experts told him he had to do.

    And now, as the markets tumble, as Trump lies about the number of coronavirus cases in the U.S. and pretends that there might not be “community spread” – the first case of which the CDC literally announced just after Trump’s news conference, it’s become even more clear Trump and his administration aren’t interested in protecting the American public, but rather, they are interesting in appearing to be doing “things” that might make it appear they are protecting the American public – when their goal is to protect the markets.

    That’s why Vice President Pence’s first act as head of the Coronavirus Task Force was to add top and Trump economic advisor Larry Kudlow, and Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin to the Task Force, along with the Surgeon General (finally).

    Absent from the list: any public health experts, any crisis experts, anyone not from the Trump administration, the CDC, or the NIH. In other words, there is no one on the Trump Coronavirus Task Force the Trump administration cannot control.

    That’s dangerous. It’s dangerous because the administration has already told the federal government all communication, to reporters and others, is to go through Vice President Pence, and it’s dangerous because there is no one who will tell Trump or Pence anything they don’t want to hear.
    Vice President Mike Pence:

    In late 2014, health officials belatedly became aware of an HIV outbreak in Scott County, Indiana. With fewer than 24,000 people, this rural county rarely saw a single new case in a year, according to The New York Times. But by the time government agencies tried to stop the transmission of the virus a few months later, some 215 people had tested positive.

    One man seemed responsible for needlessly letting the situation get out of control: Indiana’s then-Governor Mike Pence. In 2015, when the virus was seeming to rapidly move through networks of people who use intravenous drugs, even the reluctant local sheriff encouraged the governor to authorize a clean-needle exchange, a proven tool to reduce such an outbreak.

    But, as the Times reported when he became Donald Trump’s running mate, “Mr. Pence, a steadfast conservative, was morally opposed to needle exchanges on the grounds that they supported drug abuse.” His opposition was based on an incorrect belief; while research has long shown that needle exchanges do reduce HIV and hepatitis, it has also shown that they do not encourage drug use.

    Pence went home to “pray on it” before he decided to approve a limited needle exchange. Many observers believed that the program acted as a kind of public-health Hail Mary pass, staunching a catastrophic wound that would have gotten much worse.


    What is your professional opinion on these developments rory?

    Mainly the old and sick so frankly no biggie to society.
    Hmmm...
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    When the fit and healthy are dropping like with the 1919 pandemic then I'll properly start panicking
    Hope your leaders are more intelligent and informed than ours:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-2...asset/12006078

    And when a journalist pointed out that COVID-19 has a fatality rate of around 2-3 per cent, while the flu is about 0.1 per cent, Trump disagreed. "The flu is much higher than that," he said.
    Spend less time on Twitter blaming the Dems for Wall Streets woes, and more time consulting with health care experts Donnie Baby.....

    "When they look at the statements made by the people standing behind those podiums, I think that has a huge effect."
    The problem with that logic is that the debate happened on Tuesday night (local time), after the markets closed.

    "And we'll essentially have a flu shot for this in a fairly quick manner."
    Of course anyone with even a cursory knowledge of immunology knows the process of creating a vaccine takes months...

    "Nothing is inevitable," he stressed. "There's a chance it could be worse. There's a chance it could get fairly, substantially worse, but nothing is inevitable."
    Even as COVID-19 has spread to 50 countries, South Korea announced 505 new cases, Italy reported 650 cases as of Thursday night — up from 400 a day earlier — with 17 deaths, etc., etc., etc.....

    Panic time? Perhaps not yet. Time to prepare for the inevitable? Yep.
    High Plains Drifter

  10. #10

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Rory, I know about soap. I've experience with clean rooms and sterilization of equipment as part of my work. Regular people dont know this stuff though, they think the only thing that can kill germs and viruses are in the pharmacy section. I am sure you can still pick up soap and aftershave right now.

    As far as enforcement, it's as simple as the store saying "sorry sir, only two per person" and having a single town cop at the front of the store. Am I under thinking this?


  11. #11
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Rory, I know about soap. I've experience with clean rooms and sterilization of equipment as part of my work. Regular people dont know this stuff though, they think the only thing that can kill germs and viruses are in the pharmacy section. I am sure you can still pick up soap and aftershave right now.

    As far as enforcement, it's as simple as the store saying "sorry sir, only two per person" and having a single town cop at the front of the store. Am I under thinking this?
    For "regular people" not to know requires wilfully ignoring every outlet that is stating this simple fact. So on this front is it not supply it is that we have an overabundance of morons.

    If everyone would cheerfully accept the two per person, there would probably not need to be the two per person. So, what about when each person's child is a separate "person", or the same person just wants to pay several times? Or uses the self checkouts repeatedly? Although people have the inability to grasp soap = good, they'll think of many ways of technically following the rules whilst clearly taking the piss.

    In a large supermarket, there might be 20 or more checkout lanes. What happens if the cop is busy on isle one and isle 14 has an issue? And if this is the USA, let's pretend in both cases the person is white so you can't just shoot one of them. And one cop per store would mean that there's a massive reduction in police elsewhere. The UK certainly doesn't really have spare capacity in this, and I'd rather they were at least pretending to try to solve crimes.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    For "regular people" not to know requires wilfully ignoring every outlet that is stating this simple fact. So on this front is it not supply it is that we have an overabundance of morons.

    If everyone would cheerfully accept the two per person, there would probably not need to be the two per person. So, what about when each person's child is a separate "person", or the same person just wants to pay several times? Or uses the self checkouts repeatedly? Although people have the inability to grasp soap = good, they'll think of many ways of technically following the rules whilst clearly taking the piss.

    In a large supermarket, there might be 20 or more checkout lanes. What happens if the cop is busy on isle one and isle 14 has an issue? And if this is the USA, let's pretend in both cases the person is white so you can't just shoot one of them. And one cop per store would mean that there's a massive reduction in police elsewhere. The UK certainly doesn't really have spare capacity in this, and I'd rather they were at least pretending to try to solve crimes.

    Are you surprised people are dumb and ignorant!?!? Always plan based on the stupidest person you can imagine then go one further.

    Most people respond to signals of authority and order. Signs that say 2 per person with an authority figure nearby cuts down on the problem more than one would think. Also you can just turn off self checkout. Also every store has their own loss prevention resource.

    Most of what you are saying is easily resolvable at the moment of transaction. If someone wants to go back to the end of the line for another two, that's not even a problem. Read up on the guy with 17,000 cases of sanitizer that's what we are trying to prevent, and they are not going to risk getting arrested over toilet paper, they will find some easier scam to make their money.

    In national emergencies, lack of resources is a given and the main priority is maintaining public order. If you got robbed during an epidemic that's bad luck, idk what to tell you.
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 03-15-2020 at 23:28.


  13. #13

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Italian obituaries. Everyone watch this clip!
    https://twitter.com/benphillips76/st...54071509016577

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    So you believe that posting here facilitates prevention? As I can surmise it is an update on the number of the infected, comparison of mortality rates and description of what is happening in locations posters hail from. All taken together it may raise the level of imminent threat feeling and when all around you keep talking of it night and day panic is just around the corner.
    Is your problem with this thread, government responses around the world, media responses, or what? We're just here to shoot the shit with some online folk.

    Is it 1920 now or am I missing something? I believe that a hundred years that has passed since then must have brought some progress into medicine, no?
    If the healthcare system is operating beyond capacity, its ideal or potential effectiveness is obviated.

    One estimate I saw suggested <1% COVID-19 fatality rate under normal operations, but up to 5% under overrun. And when healthcare systems are overrun, it's not just COVID-19 patients who are affected - it's everyone else relying on the system too. Cascading mortality...

    @Samurai: SARS-2 is gonna kill young people just fine if they get into a car accident and it turns out the nearest hospitals are overflowing converted COVID wards.

    By the way it is what China itself has done to its province.
    Yes, theoretically if you implement the most effective and draconian containment regime in history and physically obstruct every possible disease vector then there is no pandemic. So far in history disease finds a way. States are not omnipotent or omniscient. The Ukrainian government does, however, have the advantage of time to view the development of the pandemic, should it choose to take it.

    23 Ukrainian individulas whose job was serving in the army were killed since the year started. Yet these consequences of relatively harmless Russian foreign policy didn't cause any panic in Ukraine.
    There was significantly more panic in 2014-15, which I gathered from reading, uh, your posts here, reading the news, and thirdhand from relatives in Ukraine (I think some of them live near Dnepr). The foreign policy situation is now stabler, as opposed to the developing pandemic.

    В любой непонятной ситуации покупай побольше гречки.




    In general, quoting you
    That was, like, my point.

    Although to be pedantic there was a mandatory evacuation of school-age children in May, out to at least Kyiv. Right? You're young enough to have potentially been affected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    And for Montmorency - another category of COVID beneficiaries:
    https://golos.ua/i/739478
    In reference to the NYT article on profiteers vis-a-vis the Soviet system: there were many such people in Leningrad...


    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Are you surprised people are dumb and ignorant!?!? Always plan based on the stupidest person you can imagine then go one further.

    Most people respond to signals of authority and order. Signs that say 2 per person with an authority figure nearby cuts down on the problem more than one would think. Also you can just turn off self checkout. Also every store has their own loss prevention resource.

    Most of what you are saying is easily resolvable at the moment of transaction. If someone wants to go back to the end of the line for another two, that's not even a problem. Read up on the guy with 17,000 cases of sanitizer that's what we are trying to prevent, and they are not going to risk getting arrested over toilet paper, they will find some easier scam to make their money.

    In national emergencies, lack of resources is a given and the main priority is maintaining public order. If you got robbed during an epidemic that's bad luck, idk what to tell you.
    Toilet paper is a low-margin high-bulk item, so when it goes it goes quickly in a JIT age with minimum backroom storage. Just throwing that out there. It gets restocked quick, but people shopping and seeing empty lots or shelves don't perceive that.

    Stores, at least large chains in America, have already begun implementing customer limits on items such as wipes and disinfectants. This actually hurts another demographic you may not have considered: women and their families. Since women are often shopping for groups of people, as is their gendered responsibility much of the time, individual limits are much more inconvenient to them than to single young people or to profiteers.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 03-16-2020 at 00:50.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    HUMOR BREAK:

    Now, there's a lot of people making this reference, but the US government response is shockingly similar to the of the mayor in Jaws.

    In that vein too:

    In global disaster movies, there’s always a scientist who’s like, WE HAVE TO ACT NOW OR PEOPLE WILL DIE and some government guy who’s like, YOU’RE BLOWING THIS OUT OF PROPORTION and I’m like, NO ONE WOULD REACT TO INFO LIKE THAT IN REAL LIFE.

    My apologies to those movies.
    SARS 2 conclusively disproves those naysayers who argue that world governments would easily and rapidly neutralize any zombie plague.


    How New Yorkers deal with coronavirus...
    https://twitter.com/AMAZINACE/status...30441119379458

    How Norway deals with coronavirus...

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    Vitiate Man.

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    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  15. #15

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Toilet paper is a low-margin high-bulk item, so when it goes it goes quickly in a JIT age with minimum backroom storage. Just throwing that out there. It gets restocked quick, but people shopping and seeing empty lots or shelves don't perceive that.

    Stores, at least large chains in America, have already begun implementing customer limits on items such as wipes and disinfectants. This actually hurts another demographic you may not have considered: women and their families. Since women are often shopping for groups of people, as is their gendered responsibility much of the time, individual limits are much more inconvenient to them than to single young people or to profiteers.
    It's too little to late at this point though for the limits. I'm more amenable to that argument about no limits, regarding mothers shopping for groups, I didn't consider that specific end case.


  16. #16
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post

    Yes, theoretically if you implement the most effective and draconian containment regime in history and physically obstruct every possible disease vector then there is no pandemic.
    Thousands of deaths, hundreds of thousands of infected, people confined to their dwellings, tourism industry at a full stop, stock exchange market dropping, oil prices plummetting, Putin prolonging his tenure till 2036, student athletes turned into students, media corporations devastated, floor in Ukrainian post offices washed with хлорка, Brithish stocks of thermometers and soap running historically low since 1914 (and just slightly above 1066) with no chance to replenish them because the UK has Brexited and Megan is in Canada, and on top of it all Trump taking a COVID test (and everybody made sure his ravings are hard-coded and not caused by some bug virus) VS preventing people to leave China? Hmmm... Seems a tough choice....
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    In a large supermarket, there might be 20 or more checkout lanes. What happens if the cop is busy on isle one and isle 14 has an issue? And if this is the USA, let's pretend in both cases the person is white so you can't just shoot one of them. And one cop per store would mean that there's a massive reduction in police elsewhere. The UK certainly doesn't really have spare capacity in this, and I'd rather they were at least pretending to try to solve crimes.
    Really?!
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Rory, I know about soap. I've experience with clean rooms and sterilization of equipment as part of my work. Regular people dont know this stuff though, they think the only thing that can kill germs and viruses are in the pharmacy section. I am sure you can still pick up soap and aftershave right now.

    As far as enforcement, it's as simple as the store saying "sorry sir, only two per person" and having a single town cop at the front of the store. Am I under thinking this?
    ACIN, the chemists and supermarkets here are running out of soap, and rubbing alcohol.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  19. #19

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    ACIN, the chemists and supermarkets here are running out of soap, and rubbing alcohol.
    Rubbing alcohol has been gone for a while in my town. Two days ago I went to Target and still found bottles of liquid soap, so maybe UK citizens are smarter about hygiene?


  20. #20
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Rubbing alcohol has been gone for a while in my town. Two days ago I went to Target and still found bottles of liquid soap, so maybe UK citizens are smarter about hygiene?
    Is Dettol or similar antiseptics less effective than rubbing alcohol?

  21. #21

    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Is Dettol or similar antiseptics less effective than rubbing alcohol?
    I have never heard of Dettol, so I can't speak to this. Whatever type of chemical it is, Monty and others have shown there are some studies you might be able to find regarding a chemical's effectiveness at reducing viral load for a specific time duration.

    But to my knowledge, and I might be wrong but the main advice from the experts is first and foremost don't touch your face and wash your hands with soap frequently. Disinfecting every surface you interact with is less practical.


  22. #22
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coronavirus / COVID-19

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post

    Question. Will it be hysteria if this virus finds its' way into the Ukraine at levels that other areas of the world are experiencing?
    People say that we are experiencing the same level of infection, only the authorities don't admit it. Which is one more reason to get hysteric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post

    Is your problem with this thread, government responses around the world, media responses, or what? We're just here to shoot the shit with some online folk.
    As a response:

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    The UK has no thermometers, won't have any for two weeks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    UK moving to a "war footing" regarding manufacturing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51896168
    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    ACIN, the chemists and supermarkets here are running out of soap, and rubbing alcohol.
    Just shit shooting which has no relation whatever to panic-mongering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post

    There was significantly more panic in 2014-15, which I gathered from reading, uh, your posts here, reading the news, and thirdhand from relatives in Ukraine (I think some of them live near Dnepr). The foreign policy situation is now stabler, as opposed to the developing pandemic.
    Foreign policy pursued by Zelensky is fraught with outbursts of patriotic population, so no stability. This time due to Ukrainian authorities, not Russia, thought.


    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post

    Although to be pedantic there was a mandatory evacuation of school-age children in May, out to at least Kyiv. Right? You're young enough to have potentially been affected.
    As far I as remember children finished their school at he end of May and then parents were free to send them away if they liked. I mean in Kyiv. Elsewhere I'm confident that it was this way. No evacuation - it could give rise to total panic which was already starting to spread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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