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Thread: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

  1. #31
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    You're not wrong about this. With this crisis all of a sudden people realised how important it is to have safety nets to protect those vulnerable.
    Especially, now that many Americans have realised that all working people who rely on a steady income are vulnerable.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  2. #32
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    I would have thought this is a no brainer - but given massive economic events have happened several times previously (I mean, Detroit not only imploded over a number of decades but then went bankrupt) and within a few years we're back to again discussing the fact the USA has no safety net I'm not convinced that this will be different to another bump in the road.

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  3. #33
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Honestly it should. As an European, and a European who lived in other countries too and has seen almost 30 of them, some things for me related to America are absolutely baffling and incomprehensible.

    I genuinely think it's high time that systemic changes are done otherwise it will only spiral worse.
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  4. #34
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Honestly it should. As an European, and a European who lived in other countries too and has seen almost 30 of them, some things for me related to America are absolutely baffling and incomprehensible.

    I genuinely think it's high time that systemic changes are done otherwise it will only spiral worse.
    Most of those comparisons in your head are unified states. As in, one national government that wields the large bulk of political power. That does not obtain in the USA (at least yet) despite the efforts of Hamilton, Lincoln, Roosevelt, FDR, and others to shift us away from dispersed (what we label "federalized" power) to that of a stronger Central government. Our national government is our biggest power bloc, but often cannot do X, Y, or Z over the opposition of various state governments.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  5. #35

    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Funny saw about real-life events:
    The world is on the cusp of an economic depression.
    International relations are an increasingly-violent maelstrom of great-power posturing.
    A US Republican lawmaker named Hawley takes the Capitol floor to declaim against free trade and the reds...
    What is the year?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Most of those comparisons in your head are unified states. As in, one national government that wields the large bulk of political power. That does not obtain in the USA (at least yet) despite the efforts of Hamilton, Lincoln, Roosevelt, FDR, and others to shift us away from dispersed (what we label "federalized" power) to that of a stronger Central government. Our national government is our biggest power bloc, but often cannot do X, Y, or Z over the opposition of various state governments.
    Heretofore the United States was as close to unitary union as any federal state has come. Congress could preempt vast bodies of state law if it chose to (as it often has in the past, e.g. regulatory matters). The states have been desperate for the federal government to take the lead in this crisis. That it hasn't this time, choosing instead to undermine the states, is not an element of our federalism but of our descent toward failed state status a la early-90s Russia or Somalia - pick your poison.

    Anyway, on the subject of the thread the bottom line remains that neglecting to borrow trillions at zero interest rates in order to provide relief, sustain government services, prime the economy, or even refinance outstanding debt, during one of the worst downturns
    - in the context of an increasingly-brittle world system - of all time is a world-historical level of fiscal irresponsibility, of Hetty-Greenism, that will reverberate for the remainder of recorded time. One more casual theft from future generations.

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  6. #36
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Excuse my departure from my usual aloofness but what in the f*** are you doing over there?
    Requesting suggestions for new sig.

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  7. #37
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    Excuse my departure from my usual aloofness but what in the f*** are you doing over there?
    Enacting Patrick Henry's vision for governance.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  8. #38
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Excuse my departure from my usual aloofness but what in the f*** are you doing over there?
    Pull up a map of states alignment during the ACW. Look familiar? Not much has changed in 160 years....
    High Plains Drifter

  9. #39
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Enacting Patrick Henry's vision for governance.
    Looks about a coherent as a map of the HRE during the later years.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Pull up a map of states alignment during the ACW. Look familiar? Not much has changed in 160 years....
    It's the northern protesters with the Confederate flags that I find amusing.
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  10. #40

    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    Looks about a coherent as a map of the HRE during the later years.
    Just so.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Pull up a map of states alignment during the ACW. Look familiar? Not much has changed in 160 years....
    That's part of it, but the truth is it's so much messier. At least there were just two polities in the ACW-era. Remember, first time as tragedy, second time as farce.


    EDIT: By the way, the answer to the joke in my previous post is 1930/2020. I hope I don't have to explain it.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 05-25-2020 at 01:21.
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  11. #41
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    It's the northern protesters with the Confederate flags that I find amusing.
    It's about rural and non-rural areas. Numbers wise, the urban areas probably sport more guns per capita than the non-urban areas. But it's the intent. In the cities guns are closely related to violent crimes that are primarily race or drug related. In rural areas, it's more like a badge of honor...the proverbial "Don't Tread On Me" mentality. The Michigan Freedom Fund (the group carrying out the protests) is financed primarily through the DeVos family based in Grand Rapids, MI, and the family has very close ties with Trump (Betsy DeVos is Trump's education secretary).

    At least there were just two polities in the ACW-era.
    And there are just two polities now, as I see it

    Conservative, mostly white, Republicans---and liberal Democrats. Oversimplification, I know, but most conflict can be drawn along those lines. Just look at your chart for those who wear masks in public, and those that don't. Pretty much aligned along party lines
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 05-25-2020 at 17:21.
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  12. #42

    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    And there are just two polities now, as I see it

    Conservative, mostly white, Republicans---and liberal Democrats. Oversimplification, I know, but most conflict can be drawn along those lines. Just look at your chart for those who wear masks in public, and those that don't. Pretty much aligned along party lines
    Geographically it's more fragmented. The mountain states of the inner West aren't teaming up with the Southern states. The Northeast and mid-Atlantic aren't teaming up with the West Coast. It's like a fractal conflict.
    Vitiate Man.

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  13. #43
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    The old saw about the HRE was that it wasn't Holy, wasn't Roman, and wasn't much of an Empire.

    Some days I fear that the USA is down to only the last letter.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  14. #44
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Unfortunately, or fortunately, depends how you look at it, all empires come to an end sooner or later and while the USA is still a good long way to go (that military is still super dominant), it's not looking good.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

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    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country.

  15. #45
    Member Member Tuuvi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    I'm of the opinion that the United States is in terminal decline, from coronavirus to hurricanes, wildfires and botched wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the US government just seems totally incapable of solving the various crises that beset it, and now its on the verge of declaring war on its own citizens. As global warming intensifies things are just going to get worse from here on out.

    This is an interesting podcast I listened to the other day that looks at the rise and fall of empires from a Marxist perspective:

    https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the...ada/e/69906620

  16. #46

    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Apparently the EU has been doing something.
    https://www.dw.com/en/european-commi...lan/a-53584998

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  17. #47
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    As you might know, the market is swinging wildly lately, due to the economic uncertainty, pumping of money by the FED and apparently... Robinhood.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...-t-fed-s-fault

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/17/robi...wild-ride.html

    I'm following markets & econ very closely as usual and I find the whole "blame the Robinhood beginners for the market swings" rather... shortsighted... to put it nicely.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

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  18. #48

    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Hell of a thing to name a financial services company "Robinhood."

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  19. #49
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuvi View Post
    I'm of the opinion that the United States is in terminal decline, from coronavirus to hurricanes, wildfires and botched wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the US government just seems totally incapable of solving the various crises that beset it, and now its on the verge of declaring war on its own citizens. As global warming intensifies things are just going to get worse from here on out.

    This is an interesting podcast I listened to the other day that looks at the rise and fall of empires from a Marxist perspective:

    https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the...ada/e/69906620
    There is never a turning point, never a moment of crisis or victory that signals a permanent change in destiny. There are only actors and institutions and at any point they can change; as long as the United States as an entity exists there is the possibility for recovery. Believing otherwise is a trap that accelerationists promote to make you think that nations like phoenixes will only be reborn once they are burned down. But this is real life, not mythology. The only thing that will get burned are poor and colored people.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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  20. #50
    Member Member Tuuvi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    There is never a turning point, never a moment of crisis or victory that signals a permanent change in destiny. There are only actors and institutions and at any point they can change; as long as the United States as an entity exists there is the possibility for recovery. Believing otherwise is a trap that accelerationists promote to make you think that nations like phoenixes will only be reborn once they are burned down. But this is real life, not mythology. The only thing that will get burned are poor and colored people.
    States break down and collapse all the time, from the Roman Empire, to the Qing dynasty, to the Classic period Maya city states, etc. It's a recurring pattern throughout history. I will concede that it is possible for the United States to turn itself around at this point in time, but I'm still not sure it actually will.

    I vehemently disagree with the notion that the downfall of the United States would only result in the poor and people of color getting burned. The US was built upon the genocide of the indigenous, the enslavement of Africans, and the exploitation of poor immigrants. The US is currently engaged in imperialist ventures that result in the slaughter of poor brown people all over the world. It's been fighting a pointless 19 year war in Afghanistan for god's sake. The collapse of the United States could be really ugly and lead to something worse taking its place, that is true. But if the US were to be overthrown in a working class, POC led rebellion that would be a net benefit for the poor and people of color.

    Either way we have to keep fighting for a better, more just world; I never suggested that the downfall of the United States is guaranteed to be a good thing. It would only be a good thing if people are organized and prepared to build something better to take its place.
    Last edited by Tuuvi; 07-03-2020 at 02:25.

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  21. #51

    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuvi View Post
    The collapse of the United States could be really ugly and lead to something worse taking its place, that is true. But if the US were to be overthrown in a working class, POC led rebellion that would be a net benefit for the poor and people of color.
    But that's not really a thing, you know, nor does anyone seem to have a good notion of how it would become a thing. And revolutions are pretty much always elite or wannabe-elite projects.
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  22. #52
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Economic Shenanigans / Market Crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuvi View Post
    I vehemently disagree with the notion that the downfall of the United States would only result in the poor and people of color getting burned. The US was built upon the genocide of the indigenous, the enslavement of Africans, and the exploitation of poor immigrants. The US is currently engaged in imperialist ventures that result in the slaughter of poor brown people all over the world. It's been fighting a pointless 19 year war in Afghanistan for god's sake.
    You are suffering from tunnel vision. The presence of these protests signals the desire and the momentum of the United States to continue a slow, a painfully slow, reformation into something more grand than any empire or country has ever achieved. A truly multicultural liberal democracy whose internal divisions rests on beliefs, values, and ideas and not by ethnicity, sex, or wealth. This country is unique in its public chastising over its original sins and the measures it has taken in 4-6 generations from a WASPy agrarian oligarchy to what it is today.

    No country lacks guilt, if you think the US and Europe has a tortured past, read more on Imperial Japan or China for the past 60 years. The downfall of the US as a major entity would allow the Han ethnostate in China to accelerate, leading to the extermination of Tibetans, Uyghurs, Manchu's, and the emerging Taiwanese identity.

    To burn it all down is to reset the clock.

    The collapse of the United States could be really ugly and lead to something worse taking its place, that is true. But if the US were to be overthrown in a working class, POC led rebellion that would be a net benefit for the poor and people of color.

    Either way we have to keep fighting for a better, more just world; I never suggested that the downfall of the United States is guaranteed to be a good thing. It would only be a good thing if people are organized and prepared to build something better to take its place.
    I think what you are suggesting in the second half of this quote is already happening, but you are too blinded by your historical narrative to understand that these types of changes are simultaneously difficult to make in the short term and yet happening at a unprecedented rate historically.

    Where you should direct your energy is engaging within your community and nurturing opportunities for growth and change instead of feeding a fatalistic idea of death as the only means to rebirth.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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