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Thread: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impunity

  1. #91
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Peaceful protesters on their way to the mayors house...yeah, cell phones vs guns, that's even worse than bringing a knife to a gun fight

    This was more likely the thought process:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbpeJurU...jpg&name=large

    As the events in the USA show, peaceful protesters may very quickly turn into rioters and looters (or the latter can use peaceful protesters as a dusguise).
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    As the events in the USA show, peaceful protesters may very quickly turn into rioters and looters (or the latter can use peaceful protesters as a dusguise).
    The best way to get this to happen is to escalate the situation with guns and so on.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  3. #93
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    The best way to get this to happen is to escalate the situation with guns and so on.

    Or it may be the contrary - rioters may think twice before attacking the house whose inhabitants manifest guts to stand up to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    rioters may think twice before attacking the house whose inhabitants manifest guts to stand up to them
    Have you not learned anything from the BLM protests??? Violence begets more violence, and the circle goes 'round-and-round'. How about talking to the protesters (again, the use of the word 'rioters' shows which side of the fence you are)?

    Nope...instead we get a couple of white super-hero wannabes brandishing guns at primarily black protesters. As a couple of attorneys used to the gift of gab, walk out and find out what the marchers are upset about.

    Nah! The only thing missing from that sequence of photos were MAGA hats.....
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-03-2020 at 17:38.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Or it may be the contrary - rioters may think twice before attacking the house whose inhabitants manifest guts to stand up to them.
    That might be the case... although almost all work on how to de-escalate such situations states the opposite - the riots themselves have tended to worsen when the police turn up as if they are an invading army (not a fair comparison - soldiers don't get covered by Qualified Immunity) things in general go worse than when they, y'know, act like a civilian police force.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
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  6. #96

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    The best way to get this to happen is to escalate the situation with guns and so on.

    Yes, it should be evident that a great way to draw a crowd around your house is to come out and menace the passersby with shouts and waved guns. Don't want none, don't start none.

    Gil, I know Ukraine has been brutalized by years of civil war, but this isn't the civilized way, to think random strangers are eternally prepared to ransack your residential neighborhood.
    Vitiate Man.

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  7. #97
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    It was, apparently, within their rights under MO law to be there and to "defend" their property as the street and sidewalk were not public right-of-way but a private street and sidewalk in which the two shared ownership as homeowners within that community.

    Please note that this addresses the law, not the couple's judgment. The move was certainly inflammatory, especially her brandishing of her weapon.

    They were also within 21' of their threat...which is considered not smart even on a tactical level.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  8. #98
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Have you not learned anything from the BLM protests???
    I believe it is YOU (like in Americans) should learn something, not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Violence begets more violence, and the circle goes 'round-and-round'.
    We had a candidate for prsidency who said that the best way to stop the war is "just to cease shooting". He has been a president for over a year now and the war in Ukraine isn't over. Evidently some recipes don't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    How about talking to the protesters ?
    That depends on the mood of the crowd. You may start doing it but some stronger arguments than words may turn out necessary.


    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    (again, the use of the word 'rioters' shows which side of the fence you are)?
    Taking sides is what Americans seem to be preoccupied with. I prefer to see the facts.

    I saw the violence of cops that led to death. No doubt they should be punished. But it might have nothing to do with the race of the victim. American cops are like that to all people. And not only American. In Ukraine we recently had a case when a woman was raped by two policemen when she came to a police precinct to testify. But Ukrainians didn't think it was somehow motivated by the ideological convictions of the cops - just two brutes abusing power.

    Besides, the record of the victim in Minnesota is far from clean. He was in jail several times (and there was a case when he pointed a gun at the stomach of a pregnant woman) so he doesn't qualify to be buried in a golden casket and worshipped in any other way. A typical hardened criminal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Yes, it should be evident that a great way to draw a crowd around your house is to come out and menace the passersby with shouts and waved guns. Don't want none, don't start none.
    What if they have a mind to start one? Another cheek approach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Gil, I know Ukraine has been brutalized by years of civil war, but this isn't the civilized way, to think random strangers are eternally prepared to ransack your residential neighborhood.
    I thought that those years of war have taught the world that it isn't civil.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 07-04-2020 at 04:51.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  9. #99

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    What if they have a mind to start one? Another cheek approach?

    I thought that those years of war have taught the world that it isn't civil.
    There is such a thing as applying reason to the facts at hand; racial panic is not an acceptable alternative. If the aim is to avert damage to person or property, then the residents should not have introduced themselves to a stable situation in a manner conducive to generate damage to person or property.

    American cops are like that to all people.
    In 'All people are subject to police brutality, but some people are more subject than others,' the takeaway is not the first clause.

    But Ukrainians didn't think it was somehow motivated by the ideological convictions of the cops - just two brutes abusing power.
    If the cops were ethnic Ukrainians and the woman was an ethnic Ukrainian, then naturally it would not be controversial to draw the conclusion that racial animus was not a factor in the incident.

    Besides, the record of the victim in Minnesota is far from clean. He was in jail several times (and there was a case when he pointed a gun at the stomach of a pregnant woman) so he doesn't qualify to be buried in a golden casket and worshipped in any other way. A typical hardened criminal.
    So? The crimes for which an individual served their sentence decades ago cannot justify extrajudicial execution of a peaceable person on the spot unless we're in Dredd-world.

    BTW, if you are of the opinion that convicted felons ought to be outlaw, and uphold this view despite its current thoroughly-illegal and unconstitutional status, here is a recently-publicized blue-on-black with subsequent fascist shit in which the victim was among the best of us.


    https://twitter.com/DaniOliver/statu...55358666305541
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  10. #100
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Taking sides is what Americans seem to be preoccupied with. I prefer to see the facts.
    Here's a fact that explains the whole protest situation in a nutshell: if those protesters had been white business people marching to the mayors house to protest a local lock-down order, instead of black protesters marching to protest the publication of their names for coming out in favor of police reform, then the whole incident NEVER happens. Skin color, sadly does make a difference

    Follow up:

    https://www.politifact.com/article/2...o-pointed-gun/

    And video from the protesters pov:

    https://twitter.com/Ohun_Ashe/status...42108984647686

    "A mob of at least 100 smashed through the historic wrought iron gates of Portland Place, destroying them, rushed towards my home where my family was having dinner outside and put us in fear for our lives," Mark McCloskey said, and shared photos of the destroyed gate.
    Does that accurately describe the video clip from one of the protesters?

    How about these:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpSr0eYO9o4

    See a pattern? Can you say K-A-R-E-N

    An even more aggressive confrontation:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-ca...eporting-story

    With comments like this from Fearless Leader, is it any wonder his minions are resorting to guns?

    (From his 4th of July speech at Mt. Rushmore):

    “This attack on our liberty, our magnificent liberty, must be stopped, and it will be stopped very quickly.” He added darkly: “In our schools, our newsrooms, even our corporate boardrooms, there is a new far-left fascism that demands absolute allegiance. If you do not speak its language, perform its rituals, recite its mantras and follow its commandments, then you will be censored, banished, blacklisted, persecuted and punished.”
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-04-2020 at 14:29.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    I think you are going to get a nasty, inflammatory, gerrymandered election. And if he wins, he's going to go full bore fascist.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    The last weeks in American politics have been some of the nastiest political maneouvers I've ever seen. Even by shoddy republic standards, to put this in a mild way, this is beyond the pale.
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  13. #103

    Default Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun

    Interesting study on a phenomenon I had never considered. "The property tax gaps are worst for low earners, but even the highest-earning black Americans pay more on average in property taxes than similarly well-off white peers living nearby."

    Black families pay significantly higher property taxes than white families, new analysis shows

    State by state, neighborhood by neighborhood, black families pay 13 percent more in property taxes each year than a white family would in the same situation, a massive new data analysis shows. Black-owned homes are consistently assessed at higher values, relative to their actual sale price, than white homes, according to a new working paper by economists Troup Howard of the University of Utah and Carlos Avenancio-León of Indiana University. African Americans have long said they bear a disproportionate burden for taxes that support local police, schools and parks, but nationwide measures of this type of systemic racism are hard to come by. To expose the structural and historical factors behind these discriminatory property tax assessments, the economists analyzed more than a decade of tax assessment and sales data for 118 million homes throughout the country. In almost every state, property tax assessments were higher in areas with more black and Hispanic residents. In city after city, the authors show it is not just differences in the buildings or land but also the racial composition of the neighborhood that matters. The gap between white families and minority households remains large — 10 percent — when you combine data for Hispanic and black families. (The authors excluded California because Proposition 13, passed in 1978, drastically changed how property is valued there.)
    “During the Jim Crow era, local white officials routinely manipulated property tax assessments to overburden and punish black populations and as a hidden tax break to landowning white gentry,” said University of Virginia historian Andrew Kahrl.

    Many county assessors intentionally overvalued black properties, sometimes in direct retaliation for black political action. Kahrl, whose has long researched the history of property tax discrimination against black Americans, has found white officials going to extreme lengths to hike black taxes. In one such case in 1932, a black North Carolina resident was taxed for the value of two stray dogs that had been seen on her property.
    The values of black-owned homes tend to grow more slowly than values of white-owned ones. The white people who make up the vast majority of home buyers tend to avoid black neighborhoods, which cuts black sellers off from many potential buyers. That can drive down the sale price of black-owned homes. Given that difference in price appreciation, if an assessor assumes a black-owned home gains value as quickly as a white-owned home, the assessed value of the black-owned home will quickly outstrip its market value. Every year, the black family pays more in property taxes, even though the sales price of its home is not increasing as quickly. Nearby white families benefit from the opposite trend: Their homes increase in value more rapidly than their assessments, giving them an ever-growing tax break. While neighborhood and race are the biggest drivers of the property tax gap, the economists found others. In particular, the appeals process illustrates how much of the property tax system functions in a way that penalizes black wealth, even as it appears neutral on its face. As part of their study, the economists reviewed 3.4 million property tax appeals from Chicago and surrounding Cook County and found black homeowners were significantly less likely to appeal their property tax assessments. When they did appeal, black homeowners were less likely to win. And when they won, they earned smaller assessment reductions.
    Hazel Shakur has sold homes in the well-off, mostly black suburbs of Prince George’s County in Maryland for the better part of two decades. She is one of Redfin’s top-selling agents in the county but still faces the ever-present frustration of potential bidders backing out when they see how high their property tax bills would be. Shakur has a business degree from American University, earned on a full scholarship, and has negotiated nearly 500 real estate transactions, yet said it had not occurred to her to challenge her own property taxes. She grew up in a renter household and was not taught about appealing property taxes or any of the other small strategies white homeowners have used to accumulate generational wealth. “Sometimes you’re so glad to finally get somewhere that you don’t want to make a lot of noise and create any unwanted attention — you’re just grateful to have arrived and made it, and you pay your bills,” she said. “Even if you’re not happy about your property taxes, it doesn’t occur to you to question.”
    Also, a reminder that the nation's entire transport and housing infrastructure was explicitly, consciously designed to destroy and deny non-white wealth until maybe 50 years at best - at which point most of it was a fixed facet.
    https://www.latimes.com/opinion/stor...acism-monument
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  14. #104
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    In 'All people are subject to police brutality, but some people are more subject than others,' the takeaway is not the first clause.
    Perhaps it is because these others break the law more often? And in my opinion, the police reaction is a natural thing to happen in a country where firearms could be borne by almost everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    If the cops were ethnic Ukrainians and the woman was an ethnic Ukrainian, then naturally it would not be controversial to draw the conclusion that racial animus was not a factor in the incident.
    I could offer half a dozen factors off the top of my head (and after putting on my thinking hat as many more) that could be seen by conspiracy-minded people and blown out of proprotion by the media (mind you, I don't know much either of the victim or of perpetrators, but all kinds of factors may be found and given a proper slant):

    1) The victim was a Russian-speaker and the cops were Ukrainian-speakers.
    The media: "Ukrainian nazis of whom current law enforcement bodies consist rape a Russian-speaking woman. Let's disband the police."
    2) The victim was a Ukrainian-speaker and the cops were Russian-speakers.
    The media: "Russian-speaking cops who are FSB agents under cover rape a Ukrainian patriot. Let's disband the police."
    3) The victim was a kindergarten teacher.
    The media: "Cops that had been made to eat broccoli in the kindergarten remember their old grudge decades later and take revenge upon the helpless teacher. Let's forbid all cops' kids to attend kindergartens".
    4) The victim was a refugee from Donetsk.
    "The media: "Cops harass poor inhabitants of Donbas so Putin was right in liberating the oppressed population of Donbas from the atrocities of Kyiv junta. Let's give independence to DNR."
    5) The cops were reefugees from Donbas.
    The media: "These people from Donetsk are given work and shelter far from the war and this is how they express their gratitude to the generous people of Ukraine. Let's kick all Donetsk refugees back to where they belong".

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    So? The crimes for which an individual served their sentence decades ago cannot justify extrajudicial execution of a peaceable person on the spot unless we're in Dredd-world.
    You didn't read carefully what I wrote. I repeat: the perpetrators should be punished. BUT: I see no reason in making a saint or martyr out of an average рецидивист. Or would you like to see his portrait on dollars instead of these dirty slave-owning Washington and Franklin?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  15. #105
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Perhaps it is because these others break the law more often? And in my opinion, the police reaction is a natural thing to happen in a country where firearms could be borne by almost everyone.
    You are missing the mark again. There are numerous studies to the effect that blacks and other minorities are policed more often, and more heavy-handed than whites. And no, I'm not going to do your homework for you in finding these studies, I'm sure you are resourceful enough to do that yourself.

    Although there are some calling for complete disbanding of police, most are not that radical. There's no reason for beat cops to be essentially para-military, brandishing military equipment. That's the job for S.W.A.T. In place of dialogue to diffuse a bad situation, deadly force has become all too common because many LEO's are people who couldn't make it in the military (or are ex-military) and get their rocks off shooting people. And then there's the "scared-shitless" nOOb, who's never been in a schoolyard brawl let alone a dangerous physical confrontation on a city street, and so reaches for that gun in panic thinking that their life is in danger (and that situation is real, but being able to tell the difference when it is and when it isn't is what separates a better trained cop from a rookie one).
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-05-2020 at 18:07.
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  16. #106
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    You are missing the mark again. There are numerous studies to the effect that blacks and other minorities are policed more often, and more heavy-handed than whites. And no, I'm not going to do your homework for you in finding these studies, I'm sure you are resourceful enough to do that yourself.
    O-ho! Now you are playing a teacher who is giving a hometask to me! Summer school is on? I somehow don't remember failing my semester in American ethnic awareness class!

    Now what I found:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Race & Ethnicity.png 
Views:	87 
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ID:	23859



    How come the police where blacks are overrepresented in comparison to their percentage in the entire US population are brutalizing their race?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    There's no reason for beat cops to be essentially para-military, brandishing military equipment.
    I gave the chief reason. Now YOUR homework is to overcome your name-conditioned reluctance and go to post 2821 in this thread and read again my take on the issue.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 07-05-2020 at 19:39.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  17. #107
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Non-Hispanic whites are 60.4% of US population; Hispanic/Latinx 18.3%; Black 13.4%; Asian 5.9%; Native Americans 1.3%; all others 3%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_a..._United_States

    Incarceration per 100,000 by race: White (male & female) 769/100k; Black (male & female) 4607/100k; Hispanic (male & female) 1908/100k.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarc..._United_States

    So African Americans are put in jail at a rate 6x that of whites, even though the white population is nearly 5x that of the black population; Latinx are jailed at a rate 2.5x that of whites even though the white population is nearly 3.5x greater.

    A few more facts just for shits and giggles:

    https://www.naacp.org/criminal-justice-fact-sheet/

    If African Americans and Hispanics were incarcerated at the same rates as whites, prison and jail populations would decline by almost 40%.

    The imprisonment rate for African American women is twice that of white women.

    African Americans and whites use drugs at similar rates, but the imprisonment rate of African Americans for drug charges is almost 6 times that of whites.
    The list goes on and on:

    https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-0...wty/index.html

    Consider yourself schooled...

    go to post 2821 in this thread and read again my take on the issue
    None of that is relevant to the excessive use of force, or why many large police forces have budgets bigger than some countries
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-05-2020 at 22:40.
    High Plains Drifter

  18. #108

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    The last weeks in American politics have been some of the nastiest political maneouvers I've ever seen. Even by shoddy republic standards, to put this in a mild way, this is beyond the pale.
    I've read some articles that Trump thinks his main issue is not being more overtly racist. That he went on to regret listening to Jared K. regarding support of a watered down crime bill.
    If this is the case, that he believes his issue is not pandering enough to the base...well, get ready for the most vile side of American politics to come out over the next 4 months.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I gave the chief reason. Now YOUR homework is to overcome your name-conditioned reluctance and go to post 2821 in this thread and read again my take on the issue.
    The presence of guns doesn't justify the militarization of police forces. The United Kingdom created London Metropolitan Police in the 1830s, prior to public disarmament. These were the principles behind the operation of the new police force:

    1. To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.
    2. To recognize always that the power of the police to fulfill their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behavior, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
    3. To recognize always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.
    4. To recognize always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.
    5. To seek and preserve public favor, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humor, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.
    6. To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.
    7. To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
    8. To recognize always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.
    9. To recognize always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.


    The role of police is to work hand-in-hand with citizens to achieve peace and reductions in crime. They are citizens who are given the role of peacekeeper only through their legitimacy, not through their use of force. Therefore, police force is only proportional to the need of self-defense, there is no legitimacy in using force for aggressive or preventive measures.


  19. #109

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I don't understand. These episodes indicate the opposite. And why do you strike out "ideological"? That current should be evident whether or not you approve of it.
    He had no restrictions or repercussions from ruling in a more overtly conservative opinion but he chose not to rule that way. An ideological man places his ideas above the process at hand, the end is to implement/enforce those ideas however you get there is not an issue. His ruling indicate a partisanship toward a side, but I just don't think you can simultaneously be 'ideological' and 'strategic' at the same time. To be pragmatic in making slight changes over time is by definition a reformist, incrementalist attitude not a radical ideological one. Putting it this way, an overtly ideological conservative wouldn't compromise on such an issue as abortion, to an ideological conservative abortion is murder and there is no justification for keeping the practice legal in any way shape or form, precedence be damned. I think you are trying to have it all, he is somehow a mastermind of both pragmatism and activism, of process and ideology.

    That's like a mirror image of the anti-Democrat reasoning that if Democrats complain about Trump undermining American foreign policy, they're a bunch of reckless imperialists. What's going on here, over and over, is that Roberts makes pretensions to calling "balls and strikes", respecting tradition, precedent, and constitutional and statutory text, but will happily employ flimsy pretexts and ignore his stated principles to rule against laws or doctrines that protect labor/civil rights or hinder Republican power.
    Just because he is a hypocrite doesn't mean we should default to admonishing him for rejecting stare decisis, or smear with the label 'activist'. We should be focusing on the importance of having more liberal justices on the court to overturn bad conservative rulings, so to argue in this manner only hurts the left's case in the long run. That's the extent of my point. Label Roberts as a liar for saying one thing and doing another, but lets not act as if stare decisis in itself is somehow good and not to be messed with.

    Whether or not liberal judges should act this way - and I don't really care right now to examine the balance of judging and revising precedent on the merits of legality or justice versus promoting stability in governance - is a separate question from how to evaluate Roberts and his court.
    No. How you view the role of the court and what its limitations ought to be, would definitely color your evaluation. I can't admonish Roberts for doing what I would like to see done to policies I disagree with. If I was in Robert's shoes, I would write any argument to remove Qualified Immunity in its current form. I can criticism him on the decisions themselves, but not the method in which the ruling was given.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Non-Hispanic whites are 60.4% of US population; Hispanic/Latinx 18.3%; Black 13.4%; Asian 5.9%; Native Americans 1.3%; all others 3%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_a..._United_States

    Incarceration per 100,000 by race: White (male & female) 769/100k; Black (male & female) 4607/100k; Hispanic (male & female) 1908/100k.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarc..._United_States

    So African Americans are put in jail at a rate 6x that of whites, even though the white population is nearly 5x that of the black population; Latinx are jailed at a rate 2.5x that of whites even though the white population is nearly 3.5x greater.

    A few more facts just for shits and giggles:

    https://www.naacp.org/criminal-justice-fact-sheet/



    The list goes on and on:

    https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-0...wty/index.html

    Consider yourself schooled...

    None of that is relevant to the excessive use of force, or why many large police forces have budgets bigger than some countries
    Your attempts at schooling me went astray. Perhaps because you were trying to show different statistics. I was talking of the percentage of blacks working in the police. As it turned out, it is larger than the percentage of blacks among the US population. And police as a whole is biased against blacks, as you claim. These two statements are at odds with each other.

    So your next hometask: re-read my post on it and try to explain why having disproportionate number of blacks in the police (as the statistics have it) results in the boost in the excessive use of force (as you claim).

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post

    The presence of guns doesn't justify the militarization of police forces. The United Kingdom created London Metropolitan Police in the 1830s, prior to public disarmament. [
    But the disarmament did happen! And after two hundred years bobbies don't have arms either. If the US starts public disarmament now in 2220 the current problem will peter out.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post

    Therefore, police force is only proportional to the need of self-defense, there is no legitimacy in using force for aggressive or preventive measures.
    Aren't preventive measures a kind of self-defense in advance?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    And yet, most of the civilian firearms are held by white conservatives, who tend to receive the most deferential or light touch.
    Perhaps it is because there are more whites in the USA? And I'm more than sure that most guns owned by non-whites (who are poorer) are non-registered and illegal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Which is not just a problem of fairness but one of institutional integrity as police departments are notoriously overrun by Neo-Nazis and the like.
    So a disproportionate percentage of blacks in the police work back to back with Neo-Nazis and never mind it, moreover they learn from them to mistreart their race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    If the victim was of a different ethnicity from the offender, the possibility of a hate crime should be evaluated. Especially in the context of ongoing violent national conflict.
    My post was to show that sometimes a crime is just a crime so there is no need to try to see some ideology behind it. Or, alternately, if you wish to see ideology behind every crime it won't be hard to find it (as I showed in my suppositional review).

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Your assumption is not the case.
    Painting the victim as an angel (by the way, he was arrested on suspicion of forgery - was it just an unjustified suspicion or did he have fake money on him?) and burying him in a golden casket is quite enough to engender my assumption. If you see it differently, it is your assumption. I believe mine isn't worse than yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    As for homework, look up "structural racism" and "overpolicing."

    I'm put in mind of this old ditty.
    So you think this children's poem is racist? And Africa wasn't used for the sake of rhythm? So if the poetic meter required "America" or "Asia" Chukovsky would still use "Africa" because he was a racist?
    Then you could start seeing racial bias in everything starting with any chess composition where белые начинают и выигрывают.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 07-06-2020 at 09:57.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    Removed
    Last edited by Hooahguy; 07-06-2020 at 22:12.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    Unfortunately Eastern Europe has as high a population of unreconstructed white racists as the US, ---------
    I would greatly be obliged if you cited anything of my posts that enable you to make such a conclusion.
    Last edited by Hooahguy; 07-06-2020 at 22:13.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    So your next hometask: re-read my post on it and try to explain why having disproportionate number of blacks in the police (as the statistics have it) results in the boost in the excessive use of force (as you claim).
    Some fact checking:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...line_manual_35

    Police departments across the country have become less overwhelmingly white since the 1990s, according to a study published by the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics last fall. The agency’s survey of police departments found that the share of white non-Hispanic police fell from 78.5 percent in 1997 to 71.5 percent in 2016.

    The white share of the country’s population, however, fell over that time from 72 percent to 63 percent, so the change in police did not keep pace with demographic change.
    In some communities, the population is relatively balanced between white and nonwhite, but the vast majority of the police are white. In Wayne County, Mich., which includes Detroit, about 78 percent of the police are white, compared with 49 percent of the people. Baltimore County, which surrounds Baltimore City but does not include it, has about 85 percent white police patrolling an area that is 57 percent white. Milwaukee County, Wis., has about 83 percent white police and 51 percent white residents.
    So, consistantly, far higher proportion of white officers to black officers even in areas that have a proportionately higher population of non-whites.

    The key part in that article, to me, is this:

    A University of Maryland criminologist found that crime rates in minority neighborhoods are lower when local police and government diversity matches the community. “When you have diverse police departments, diverse governments broadly speaking, that sets in motion dynamics that filter down to the community that galvanizes trust. That helps reduce crime,” said María Vélez, an associate professor in criminal justice.
    So I'd be curious what data you used to say that there are a 'disproportional number of blacks in police'? Excessive use of force? How about this one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTFNEbUcStQ

    This article is a take on the recent calls for police reforms from current and former black officers:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...1ff_story.html

    “Brooks [Rayshard Brooks] got the better of two officers, and I know it was embarrassing because it’s on video,” Taylor says. Police officers, she says, “will talk about each other to no end. ‘You let someone take your Taser? You have no business in this job.’ When that person turns that same Taser on you, you think, ‘I’ll shoot them’? That was about ego.”
    David J. Thomas, the retired officer who’s now a counselor in Florida, has been thinking about Derek Chauvin, the Minneapolis officer who knelt on George Floyd’s neck before his death. He watched the videos of Chauvin kneeling on his neck and saw the problem of police culture in Chauvin’s face — as he registers that his actions are being documented. “He’s looking at the kid who’s videoing him on the phone,” Thomas says, and “he was comfortable in that. That meant to me that he had done this a thousand times before. And he was supported by the organizational culture in the union, and he would not get in trouble.”
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-06-2020 at 15:17.
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post

    So, consistantly, far higher proportion of white officers to black officers even in areas that have a proportionately higher population of non-whites.

    So I'd be curious what data you used to say that there are a 'disproportional number of blacks in police'?
    When I said about the disproportional number of black policemen I didn't mean that they exceeded the number of white policemen. I meant that the percentage of black population in the US (11.7%) was lower than the percentage of black cops among all US cops (12.8%).
    The data from: https://datausa.io/profile/soc/police-officers

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post

    Excessive use of force? How about this one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTFNEbUcStQ
    I never denied the excessive use of force by US policemen (as probably by cops in many countries). And I think it should be punished. By the way, are black cops involved in excessive force use as well? Or are they allowed to do that because they are black? Black lives matter and other lives are expendable?

    But I wonder would there be much uproar if the excessive force was used against a person of any other race. As the case of OJ Simpson showed, implicating race into criminal investigations may give it a non-objective bias. One thing that is considered somehow justified for people of one race is stigmatized as a racism when people of other race do the same.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrH3SbMhEGA

    Can you imagine the reaction of the society if white people made blacks kiss their boots?

    So a conclusion: a crime is a crime whoever commits it. And it should be punished. Police brutality is police brutality no matter against whom it is directed. And it should be punished.

    If a hardened criminal is murdered by policemen when he did nothing to deserve such a treatment it is a crime. And it should be punished.

    But his violent and unjustified death doesn't atone for his crimes committed against other people who did nothing to deserve it either. Consequently, no eulogies for him, no stories of how good and merciful and nice he had been, no golden caskets and knee-bending. No matter what race he was.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    the percentage of black population in the US (11.7%) was lower than the percentage of black cops among all US cops (12.8%).
    If you consider a 1.1% difference to be disproportionate, so be it....

    By the way, are black cops involved in excessive force use as well?
    I'm sure that they are. However, they are far less likely to fire their weapon when dispatched to a black neighborhood:

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z

    Based on information from more than two million 911 calls in two US cities, he concluded that white officers dispatched to Black neighbourhoods fired their guns five times as often as Black officers dispatched for similar calls to the same neighbourhoods.
    In fact, except for one anomaly, black police officers fired their weapons less no matter the racial composition of the neighborhood during the course of answering those 1.2 million 9-1-1 calls.....

    Statistical studies about racial differences for police officers in the use of force are out there, I'm sure. But they are damn hard to find, and I've no patience to spend hours digging
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-06-2020 at 19:33.
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    If you consider a 1.1% difference to be disproportionate, so be it....
    What are you? A scientist? A statistician? Are you gonna throw phrases like "statistically insignificant" at me? Well I got news for you: I have 40 or 50 sacrificial animals in my back yard at any given time. Divination and liver reading is how I make all of my important decisions. /jk
    Requesting suggestions for new sig.

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    Default Re: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impun

    I'm into humor lately so here's some funnies:

    https://www.politico.com/video/2020/...nternet-079705

    That other war movie starring Ken and Barbie in "Saving Private Property".


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    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    I'm sure that they are. However, they are far less likely to fire their weapon when dispatched to a black neighborhood
    As the accident with Floyd showed, you don't need to fire guns to cause massive protests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Aside from blacks not being disproportionately represented in police, how can you justify your assumption that POC police won't participate in police maltreatment of POC communities?
    My assumption is the contrary: if the police in general maltreats blacks, so black policemen are also held responsible for such malpractice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Conservative white men own more guns than there are conservative white men. Plenty of "urban" black people are legal gun owners, for better or worse. There are very few states in the country with any requirement to register guns for normal possession; there are more states that ban registries than maintain them in any form.
    If there is no registration for gun ownership there is no possible way to correctly gauge the number of guns owned by any race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    When actions are consistently racially-biased in practice, it can be exceedingly difficult to distinguish whether any single incident arises from this bias or from another cause. It becomes a pure distraction to try to split these hairs.
    Yet when given a choice you always opt for racial explanation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    He was arrested on suspicion of intentionally submitting a counterfeit $20 bill for payment, which accusation was without any evidence known to the police at the time and in abstract sounds beneath the notice of authorities, let alone the intervention of multiple police units. The business owner went on record that he knew and liked Floyd well and that the call to police was made by a young and inexperienced employee, a call the employer would have countermanded had he been present.
    So you have to be old and experienced to learn to condone submitting counterfeit money if you know the person who did it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Who says he was an angel? The George Floyd incident was incorporated into the Movement for Black Lives - not the Movement for the Sanctified George Floyd - because it was another representation of the societal adverse treatment for which so many demand redress.
    And that is why he was buried in a golden casket?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I remember you defending the character of Stepan Bandera as Ukrainian national hero and sometime-anti Nazi - but he was indisputably a much worse person than George Floyd could ever have been. If one can very charitably extend you the opportunity to sublimate a flawed person into the ideal of national liberation or identity, then you should be able to do the same with a mere reference point in a valid list of grievances.
    1. I didn't defend Bandera. My point was and is that we should know all the details of any person and see both the bad and the good sides to him. And each person should be lauded for what good he did, and denounced for what bad he did. In the case of Bandera many people see only what they choose to, forgetting the opposite. I tried to show all sides of his personality. But it is a usual story with many other historical figures like Bohdan Kmelnitsky who fought to liberate Ukraine from Poland, but in this fight mass atrocities against the Polish and the Jews happened.

    2. There is no criterion to judge a person to be better or worse so your claim of Floyd being better than Bandera is arbitrary.

    One of my research fields now is related to the theory of possible worlds. I use it to analyze literary characters, but in fact it could be used to analyze real-life people.

    Basically, any character in a book lives in several possible worlds (father, lover, husband, businessman, neighbor, son, relative, boss, employee, sportsman, etc.) and can be viewed as a collection of different personalities each of which can have a different (sometimes even polar) assessment. For example, Soames Forsyte is depicted as a very caring father and devoted son, but a very lousy husband. And dumping all his characteristics into one heap will give you an average man that abound in this world.

    I believe that assessing Floyd (or any other person for that matter) we should also try to see all his possible worlds and assess them. Current obsession with him tends to ignore the shadiest aspects of his personality which makes his overall portrait lop-sided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Give me a break, this is a poem written a hundred years ago about how children should not go to Africa because it is awful, dangerous, and full of scary animals and cannibals. The idea that someone could have written this poem, which contains so many familiar contemporary tropes about Africa and its inhabitants, about America or any place other than the "Dark Continent" is

    This cultural artifact, perpetuated across generations, is exactly the kind of obscurantist prejudice absorbed by the general population of Europe at the time and even to this day. It has no other context or genealogy and your resistance to acknowledging racism puzzles me.
    Do you remember that ther was no racism in the USSR and all people were proclaimed equal? Moreover, the Soviet ideology contrasted the free Soviet society where all were treated the same with capitalist countries that were grounded on oppression of other races in colonies and metropolis.
    In the book "Поднятая целина" by Sholokhov one of the characters (Makar Nagulnov) was a strong partisan of interracial marriages. The whole movie "Цирк" is a story of an American circus lady who had a black son and was censured and even ostracized in the USA so she had to come to the USSR where she and her son could finally find the land of milk and honey. Soviet leaders often met with the leaders of African ex-colonies and supported them in all possible ways. African students studied in Soviet universities. So the official doctrine was anything but racist.

    Thus, representing Africa as a dangerous land in a children's poem is devoid of any racial issues. Australia, Amazonia, Indochina could be used as well if it suited the metrics of the poem. As is the way with Americans, they see race and gender where there is none.

    On a sidenote, I read a critic's take on feminism in Tolkien's books and the critic claimed that when Frodo and Sam went through Shelob's tunnel it was a reflection of penetration into female pudenda and the growths that were on the walls where like pubic hair.

    Don't become like that in treating simple stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Whether he atoned for his crimes (by most accounts he was an upstanding citizen since he got out of prison) is both irrelevant and not something you seem placed to determine. The reality of it is that which cases get the most attention is a matter of timing and media coverage, not according to some private hierarchy of virtue and innocence. Your fixation on Floyd's character misses the point.
    And disregarding his character makes the whole picture incomplete and biased.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    As the accident with Floyd showed, you don't need to fire guns to cause massive protests.
    And the current data shows that black police officers are far more likely to choose dialogue over violence to diffuse a situation.

    if the police in general maltreats blacks, so black policemen are also held responsible for such malpractice.
    This makes no sense. If I go out and shoot a black man, does that mean that all white males of Italian descent are held resposible? All police should be held accountable, that's one of the main tenents of police reform. Transparency of the service records so that all officers, white, black or otherwise, male or female, are held accountable for their actions, and can be taken to task when their actions lead to bad situations. We don't have this, at this point, mainly because of agreements between municipalities and police unions. Derek Chauvin had 18 prior misconduct complaints before he killed George Floyd. One of the other officers involved had 6 such complaints. And yet, nothing happened except a minor slap on the wrist. This is one of the root problems with the police force in the US....little accountability for its' actions.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/u...rge-floyd.html

    And that is why he was buried in a golden casket?
    What is this fixation with the manner of George Floyd's burial? Extravagant? Perhaps. But how about these:

    https://www.livescience.com/15980-de...ernatives.html

    According to Celetis Memorial Spaceflights, a company that offers the postmortem flights, a low-orbit journey that lets your cremains experience zero gravity before returning to Earth starts at $995. A chance to orbit Earth and eventually burn up in the atmosphere runs around $3,000. Dedicated space-lovers can have themselves launched to the moon or into deep space for $10,000 and $12,500, respectively.
    Ground Control to Major Tom........

    Do you remember that ther was no racism in the USSR and all people were proclaimed equal? Moreover, the Soviet ideology contrasted the free Soviet society where all were treated the same with capitalist countries that were grounded on oppression of other races in colonies and metropolis.
    Is this meant to be sarcastic, or are you referring to a particular time period of Soviet history?
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post

    What is this fixation with the manner of George Floyd's burial? Extravagant? Perhaps.
    Being buried in gold is a sign of profound veneration. Which, in view of his criminal past he didn't deserve.


    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post

    Is this meant to be sarcastic, or are you referring to a particular time period of Soviet history?
    It was the official doctrine of the Communists since the inception of the USSR. Everybody was proclaimed equal irrespective of their sex, age, race, and so on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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