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Thread: Former British Colony in Downward Spiral of Ethnic Violence, State Security Impunity

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  1. #26

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    I recommend this article on BLM protests in small-town America for its truly striking accounts of sentiment and courage there. Unfortunately the victim-blaming attitudes of the "moderates" expressed here are too common, including in the Backroom.
    @Idaho
    https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...matter-protest

    Lois Dennis started teaching second grade in the village of Bethel, Ohio — official population just under 2,800 — back in 1976. People in town call her Mrs. Dennis. And that’s the name people used online when they started denouncing what happened that Sunday afternoon in June when Bethel made national news for an explosion of violence on its streets: I can’t believe they did that to Mrs. Dennis.

    Lois’s adult daughter, Andrea, was visiting from Chicago. Earlier in the week, they’d heard that local substitute history teacher Alicia Gee was planning a small demonstration in Bethel in solidarity with Black Lives Matter. They made some signs on poster board, and Lois put on a blue T-shirt with “I TEACH” and the Superman logo.

    They parked at the middle school and began walking east on Plane Street, the main thoroughfare through the village. “That’s when we were accosted by the counterprotesters,” Andrea recalled. “They started pushing us, being aggressive, yelling at us. We couldn’t believe it. We were stunned.”

    On one side of the street, they saw around 50 Bethel residents — teachers, city council members, hairdressers, retirees — who’d shown up for the BLM demonstration. On the other, there were hundreds of people, including representatives from four different biker gangs, who, at the invitation of a local construction worker, had come to “protect” the town from looters and rioters and rumored antifa. Ultimately, the number of people “uptown,” as Bethel residents refer to the center of the village, swelled to over 800.

    Watching footage of the day, you can see the energy grow darker and heavier. You can hear a man yell “you came to the wrong fucking town,” a woman scream “you’re supporting the goddamn niggers,” another man threaten to “break your fucking jaw, bitch.” You can see rifles and handguns and a literal bag full of baseball bats. You can see a woman in a pink sweatshirt repeatedly calling a Black woman the n-word. You can see people grabbing sign after sign from the pro-BLM demonstrators and ripping them to shreds. You can see a biker come up behind Nick Reardon and punch him directly in the skull. And you can see the police officers watching the encounter do nothing.

    “People were screaming at us to go back where we came from,” Anwen Darcy, who attended the demonstration with her mom and sister, recalled. “But I was looking around, and I saw Mrs. Dennis, who’d been a teacher for 30 years. I saw my mom, who’d been on the PTA for years and served as the drama director. I saw the woman who ran all the prom fundraisers and a city councilman. The people yelling at us weren’t from here, because if they were, they would’ve known we were home.”

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    When Lois and Andrea first entered the scene, someone yanked Lois’s sign and tore it in half. She didn’t recognize that person, or any of the others pushing her around. But later, once she’d made it to the rest of the demonstrators, she looked across the street. Like everyone else, she saw people she knew. She got in a “stare down,” as her daughter later described, with one of her former colleagues.

    “Lois, I cannot believe you’re here,” the other teacher yelled.

    Andrea and her mom knew it was time to go. When they arrived home, Lois walked straight to the backyard to debrief with her husband and drink a glass of water. Andrea thought her mom would be mad at her. But Lois was resolute. “I wanted to be there,” she said. “I needed to be there.”

    Lois Dennis needed to be there, she later told me, because when she was a kid, growing up 30 minutes away in Ripley, Ohio, she would spend her summers at the local pool. From that pool, she could see a nearby hillside. And on that hillside, silently watching the kids in the pool, were her Black classmates. The schools weren’t segregated. But private pools still could be. “I never questioned or asked why. That’s why I want to stand with Black Lives Matter — that sort of quiet racism, that’s accepted for so many years, and never questioned.”

    A lot of people have stories like Lois’s. Some of those stories are about how a place like Bethel, whose official slogan is “small town, big heart,” have ignored or left unexamined years of overt and covert racism. But others have different stories: of what it felt like to be the only Black person, the only Filipino family, the only mixed kid in your class. Stories of isolation, and fear, and of trying to make yourself invisible.

    The people who showed up to “protect” the town say a Black Lives Matter demonstration doesn’t belong in a place like Bethel, Ohio. There’s no need, they say, for those sorts of conversations. Others blame the demonstrators for giving Bethel a bad name: for the dozens of articles in the national press, the outsiders flooding local Facebook comment sections, the Wikipedia entry for the village briefly changed to describe it as “composed of many, many racists.” After what happened on June 14, the village instituted a curfew — the first anyone in town can remember.

    “I’ve known Lois Dennis and her husband my whole life,” Andrew Stober, who runs the Facebook Group “Bethel Bitching Together,” told me. “I love them and respect them. But was it really the right thing to do, bringing that protest here? It’s okay to have one of those in the city, but in a predominantly white town — what they were doing was basically doing was inviting racists in.”

    If there hadn’t been a protest, the reasoning goes, there wouldn’t have been a problem, and everything in Bethel would’ve been like it always has been: just fine. But what happened on that Sunday afternoon showed just how unsustainable that belief has become.

    Bethel is at once wholly singular and totally indistinguishable from hundreds of other towns of its size and stature scattered across the United States. You can still buy a home, a pretty big one, for under $100,000, and one of several foreclosed properties for significantly less. There’s one high school, one middle school, one Ben Franklin five-and-dime — where people go for everything from quilting supplies to Halloween costumes — and one feed store.

    It feels like there’s about one church per person, but none of them have many young people anymore. In 2016, 68.4% of the county voted for Trump. The last time the county went for a Democrat in a presidential election, it was for Lyndon B. Johnson. There’s an old movie theater in downtown Bethel, opened in 1938. For years, it was the pride of the village. In 2015, a Kickstarter to raise enough money to buy a digital projector stalled out at $2,400. Now there’s just a fading Ant-Man poster. There used to be a local paper, but that got absorbed into a regional one. There used to be a solid grocery store, but that’s turned into a Save-a-Lot, a low-cost cousin to Grocery Outlet.

    “We’ve got the trifecta,” one resident said. “Dollar General, Dollar Tree, and Family Dollar.” “On the main drag, there’s always a business trying to make it,” Laurie Jones-Dick, who’s lived in town since 1977, told me. “It’ll be there for a few months, maybe a few years. But then it’s gone.”

    None of this is a new story in rural America. But to those who’ve watched Bethel’s slow decline, that doesn’t mean it isn’t deeply felt. A lot of the young people grow up and go away. Others stay but struggle to find work outside the schools or the service industry. People don’t talk a lot about the opioids or the meth, but everyone knows someone who’s died in the last decade from one or the other.

    Community members fought for years to get a levy passed to support the village’s schools. When the local pool was sold to the city, the insurance costs were too high, and officials shut it down entirely. A smattering of events, fairs, and festivals in the area have been cut for lack of funding. There’s still a Christmas parade, but the remaining activities are church-affiliated in some way. A few years ago, the village’s one non-chain restaurant, the Blue Haven, famous for its homemade pies, shut its doors. “After Sunday, people keep saying, you know, if the Blue Haven was still around, all of this never would’ve happened,” Andrea Dennis told me.

    “There aren’t many events to look forward to anymore,” Anwen Darcy explained. “Things like Pioneer Days or whatever, it might not sound like a big deal, but that’s the stuff that knits a community together. Now it’s just a bunch of people loosely living together in the same place.”

    And that place is a distinctly Ohioan version of Appalachia. As one local saying goes, it’s “as far North as you can be and not be South, and as far South as you can be and not be North.” Several homes in the uptown area, as the center of the village is called, were stops on the Underground Railroad. In 1844, former US senator Thomas Morris, a Bethel resident, ran for vice president under a third party advocating to abolish slavery. The first mayor of the town was the father of President Ulysses S. Grant.

    Still, when the Klan revived across America in the 1910s, more than 1,000 people joined in surrounding Clermont County, and local newspapers recounted its activities the same way they’d cover the work of, say, the local Red Cross. Nearly a century later, KKK literature, some of it aimed at recruitment, began popping up all over Bethel — including on the doorstep of James and Olivia Hundley and their six children. “This is something I would expect to tell my children that their ancestors experienced,” Olivia Hundley said in 2005. “Nothing that they would actually have to experience themselves.” These days, few in town can remember that family, or when they moved.

    On the bus to away football games, a former cheerleader reported, the players would talk about “beating those niggers” on the opposing team. An administrator at a local school, according to one former teacher, used to brag about going to the “race riots” in the ‘60s with baseball bats. Another teacher posted on Facebook that just this year, a white student told a student of color that “his family would have owned her,” while another raised his fist, in class, and yelled “white power!”

    Guadalupe Rodriguez, who graduated from high school this spring, arrived in Bethel in third grade. “For years I would tell myself that people didn’t really do much, they just made fun of my name,” she said. “But I guess I just got used to it. Now that I’ve grown up, I realize how differently I was treated. There are so many people in the community who supported me, but then there was this whole other group of people that just didn’t think I should exist.”

    The shock of these stories has faded for many white residents — or has just been ignored. They maintain that Bethel is not racist; there’s no need for any fundamental reexamination of how power and race align in a town that’s more than 96% white. “Mayhem, racism, and anger does not describe this village in any way,” Village Council member Bryan Coogan told me in an email. “I have lived all over this great country and moved to Bethel to stay away from just the sort of stuff I just described.”

    As Joe Manning, a local ironworker upset by the demonstration, put it on Facebook: “There hasn’t been any trouble in this town until all this shit started. I just don’t understand why people don’t just keep to themselves.”

    Alicia Gee, who helped organize the Black Lives Matter demonstration in Bethel, Ohio.

    Alicia Gee has chunky auburn bangs, oversized glasses with thick red frames, and the general look of a high school art teacher on a teen CW comedy. Like many people who showed up for the demonstration that she helped plan on Sunday, she’s lived her entire life in Bethel, marrying her high school sweetheart and raising two children.

    Apart from substitute teaching, she has served as a children’s minister, worked for Girl Scouts of Western Ohio, completed her master’s in education, and, most recently, helps run a local art collective. She’s a third-generation Bethel resident, and her father, Ron Dunn, is a member of the Village Council.

    When Gee started putting together the idea for a demonstration, she had been inspired by the small gatherings and vigils in towns just as small as Bethel, and just as conservative. But Gee was also mindful about how her community would view the event. “We knew that whatever we chose to do had to be simple,” she said, “but we also wanted to make it a big tent to include people.” They were careful to label the gathering as a demonstration — a way of showing up in solidarity. Not a protest.

    The organizers didn’t want to limit the gathering to people they already knew — which meant posting it on the Facebook Group that has filled the vacuum left by the departure of the local news. Gee posted the announcement late at night. The next morning when she woke up, there were messages on the post and in her inbox with the same theme: You can’t bring this into our town.

    At this point, protests and demonstrations had been happening all over the United States for weeks. Depending on where someone got their news, and how much credence they gave to Facebook rumors, it was easy to believe that such gatherings would devolve into riot and ruin. “There’s this common narrative,” Gee explained, “that if someone stands for Black Lives, then it’s automatically a ‘protest.’ And if it’s a protest, then it’s automatically a riot, which is automatically looting, and busing in people who will swarm the town and destroy it.”

    And the antifa rumors that had been working their way through small towns didn’t help. “I had a conversation with the mayor, and he wanted to know if any of the organizers were antifa,” Gee told me. “And he had this very confused look on his face when I told him that we’re all against fascism, but antifa isn’t, like, an organized group the way that he thought it was.”

    When Gee was planning the demonstration, she imagined there would be a few people who showed up with Trump flags. Maybe someone would throw a soda at them. That was before she heard about the bikers.

    The plans for a Black Lives Matter event pissed a lot of people off. But one of the people it upset was Lonnie Meade. Meade grew up in Bethel, installs floors, and, in his spare time, is a pretty successful drag racer. He posts frequently to Facebook, mixing memes about political correctness with photos of his cars and young daughter.

    Several people told me they remembered Meade from high school in the ‘90s. After school, there wasn’t much else to do, and kids would put together fights in local barns. Lonnie was one of them. (Meade did not respond to multiple requests for an interview, other than to say that the fights were with boxing gloves, and that “I don’t want to speak to any media as a conservative white male that loves his country, the media twist it as if you’re a white supremacist or a ‘counter protesters’ and I am neither.”)

    When Meade read about the demonstration, he began broadcasting on Facebook Live. “Sunday at 3 o’clock, they’re supposed to be bringing a Black Lives Matter,” he said. “I’m gonna tell you right now, I hope that everybody that feels like me, I hope we outnumber those people a thousand to one, and not let that shit happen here in our little town of Bethel.”

    “You’re not going to bring hate to our town,” he continued. “We don’t have hate in it right now. You’re gonna bring hate.”

    On the morning of the protest, Jason Eblin took the pulpit at Northside Baptist, a congregation that, most weeks, hovers between 40 and 50 people. Eblin moved to Bethel three years ago when the lead pastor at the church, Ben Hurst, was paralyzed in an accident. Eblin had served as associate pastor ever since. His wife grew up here, and her family all lives in town, but, he told me, “I’m still an outsider.”

    Eblin knew that if he talked about Black Lives Matter in his sermon that Sunday, he would get “in some hot water.” But he also thought it would be irresponsible, a dereliction of duty, for the church not to address it. “I’ve been told that maybe this isn’t really the best time to talk about it,” he told me. “But how can we ignore it? Jesus spoke out about racism and prejudice, so if he can talk about it, so can we.”

    In his sermon, Eblin said he’d seen one of Lonnie’s videos and heard people saying that there wasn’t anything wrong with Bethel — that everyone loves everyone. But then he recalled his own research as he talked to people before moving to the town. “It was confirmed by people, even in this church, that Bethel is known for its churches,” he said, “but also for being a racist town.”

    “Is that an unfair statement about this town?” he asked his congregation. “Well, that’s its reputation. And if it’s unfounded, then what better way of trying to correct it than saying it’s not who we are? If someone’s trying to go through peacefully and say ‘Black lives matter’ [...] then say ‘yeah, Black lives matter.’ And I hope I matter to you. Because we all matter to the Lord.”

    The bikers started showing up in Bethel a few hours after Eblin stepped down from the pulpit. They parked their motorcycles and began pacing the sidewalks. Meade went live on Facebook. “What I’m asking for is to come up here and protect your community,” he said. “I don’t know what’s going to go down for sure. I’ve seen three or four antifa people walking together with backpacks, scoping out the crowds and seeing what we have. It’s a pretty freaky situation, I won’t lie to you.”

    The post, like the one before, was shared hundreds of times.

    While Meade was broadcasting, Gee was out on the country roads, on her way back from picking up Guadalupe Rodriguez who lives, in her words, “in the middle of nowhere.” They didn’t have good service, but Gee started getting calls from people in town, saying the bikers were already there. Organizers made the decision to move the demonstration a block west, hoping to avoid confrontation.

    As Gee set up water and Gatorade, Rodriguez, who’d been designated as the official documentarian, started taking photos. A few dozen demonstrators trickled in, and Gee walked back and forth, greeting them. Her dad was standing on the far end of the block and saw a group of eight “burly-looking men” headed their way. “Here they come,” he yelled.

    At first, it was just a few dozen people headed their way. Then it was a few hundred. “At that point, something came over me,” Gee recalled. “I just thought, if this is what we have to do, this is what we have to do. I’m not running away.”

    The bikers stayed on the other side of the street for a few minutes, but then they started crossing the street, encroaching more and more on the demonstration space. The handful of police officers there to supervise spaced themselves throughout the crowd, but could do little to keep them separated.

    “It felt like a swarm,” Gee said. And in the middle of it was a white car with two women standing out of a moon roof, recording everything. One of those women, Kelly Fogwell, had gone to high school with Lonnie Meade. After graduation, she’d left town to teach and eventually go to grad school, but had returned home in 2014 to live with her mom, Kathy Newman, who stood beside her. They’d decided, even before the bikers arrived, that they’d stay in their car as an additional layer of protecting themselves from exposure to COVID-19.

    Newman had grown up as one of nine kids on a farm in Kentucky without a phone or running water. She eventually made her way to college at the University of Cincinnati, where, in 1970, right after Kent State, she participated in a peace march through the streets of the city. “We didn’t know if we were going to get shot,” she recalled. She stepped back from political organizing while she raised her kids, but has reentered activism over the past decade. “I’ve been to a lot of protests, and most of them are very boring,” she said. “Especially since I don’t really like chanting.”

    In the weeks leading up to the demonstration, Newman had been watching what had happened to protesters in Seattle, and Minneapolis, and New York. “I’ve watched videos on how to hold your hands if you get arrested, and what your legal rights are as a protester,” she told me. She got a gallon of milk, found an old paintball mask, and threw them both in the car, just in case.

    But their problem wasn’t the police — that much was immediately apparent. Videos of the event, now viewed millions of times, showed men in motorcycle vests embroidered with BIKERS FOR TRUMP with baseball bats menacing everyone in their path. Some people yelled go home and yanked signs, while others hurled slurs and attempted to knock phones from the hands of those filming. If you were a demonstrator, just standing in place made you a target.

    “I’ve never been in a situation where I’ve looked at so many faces and seen zero empathy,” Anwen Darcy said. “There was just no recognition that they were speaking to other human beings. We were just an obstacle to them. And it was so bizarre to have a guy in a confederate bandana tell me that I better watch where I go, because he’s going to take me to his truck and tear me apart. I heard it in the moment, and I was like, Whatever. But then you think about it when you get home, and you’re like, Oh, this is what he meant by that.”

    “I’ve never been in the presence of so much palpable hate,” Laurie Jones-Dick, Darcy’s mother, said. “It was like the air was throbbing.”

    When Anwen Darcy was at the demonstration, getting called “a smug Princess Leia bitch” (her hair was in buns), she noticed there was a particular type of sign that seemed to enrage people on the other side: anything to do with “white privilege.”

    “A lot of people have gotten something, whether it’s a little house or a truck or a piece of land, and they’re happy about it, and they don’t want it taken away,” she told me. To them, the protests signify a move to take that little bit that they do have, that they’ve worked so long to achieve.

    “People said to me, ‘I’ve had cops follow me in stores. How dare you say I’ve had white privilege?’” Darcy said. “But if they get drunk and disorderly, they don’t get killed. They get tased and put in a drunk tank. They can’t see that sliver of privilege that’s still theirs. So see the idea of white privilege as a threat and devaluing their experience.”

    “I get that they feel lost and terrified,” Darcy continued. “But I also wish that they could funnel that into something other than beating up women and children in the street.”

    But other residents think that the people lining the street — including, in some cases, the bikers — weren’t mad or scared. They were just trying to protect the town from what they perceived as a very real outside threat. Andrew Stober, the moderator of the Facebook Group “Bethel Bitching Together,” knows that antifa stands for antifascist. He thinks that members of the group show up after BLM protests, vandalize and loot, and give BLM a bad name — and there was no reason to believe they wouldn’t show up in Bethel, too.

    Stober started “Bethel Bitching Together” last year as a joke when another Facebook Group, “Bethel Banding Together,” seemed to devolve into, well, bitching. In his group, he lets people talk about whatever’s on their minds. He doesn’t moderate much, but has a zero tolerance policy, he said, for slurs and racists. He likes to think of himself as a pretty open-minded, curious guy. He went to college. He’s been to seven countries. He’s a volunteer wrestling coach for elementary school kids. He lived for years in Over-the-Rhine, the predominantly Black area of Cincinnati. One time he got robbed and nearly stabbed in downtown Cincinnati, but “instead of being a racist about it,” he just went down to the block where he had been attacked and got a job as a bouncer. These days, he spends his time at his fishing camp on the Ohio River, running his window cleaning business, and hanging out with his son.

    In the week leading up to the protest, Stober saw Facebook posts alleging that antifa had plans to appear in the area. He couldn’t confirm them, but thought the threat should be taken seriously. “When antifa threatens to burn down stuff within two miles of your town, don’t you go down and protect businesses?” he asked me. “I saw Lonnie’s videos, and I was like, Hey, you know what? Good for you. Protect your town. He wasn’t saying anything racist. He was just standing up and saying that stuff’s not gonna come here.”

    Stober said that if he still owned property uptown, where the demonstration took place, he would’ve been there. Instead, he stayed home to work in the garden. But his fellow wrestling coach Jeffrey Botts was there, guarding his family’s veterinary practice, and Stober applauded him. “We worked our whole lives for these businesses,” he said. “God bless those people for protecting their own stuff.”

    He hates that Bethel’s name has been smeared — especially by people who’ve moved away. “It’s hard to see the posts,” he said, “talking about this good old boy mentality, saying we’re all rednecks. But I’m a college-educated, world-traveling window cleaner. These people say they’re so glad they left Bethel, that they have interracial children and now feel like they can’t come back, and I’m like, Be the change, don’t be the problem.”

    “They walked away, started a life somewhere, haven’t been back in so many years,” Stober continued. “It’s easy to criticize from afar. I don’t know one person who’s really racist. Do I think people get singled out by the police? I do. But I don’t think it happens in Bethel.”

    In one of Lonnie Meade’s Facebook videos describing and defending what happened in Bethel, he mentions a Black student from his high school — someone, he said, whom he never had any problems with. That high school student went by Ernie back then. Now he goes by Ray, and he lives in Cincinnati with his girlfriend and young son.

    When I reached Ray Riley in the week after the demonstration, he’d watched about as much of the videos as he felt was necessary. But he’d had years to think about his time in Bethel as the only Black kid, the sort of person whom people like Meade bring up as evidence of their lack of racism.

    “My time there was like the definition of the phrase ‘social isolation,’” he told me. “I had a couple of people that I hung out with from time to time, one from a town over. But I had very few friends in the actual school.” He arrived in Bethel in middle school and moved in with his stepdad, who was white. “As far as race relations go, he wasn’t the best informed,” Riley said. “He wasn’t savvy enough to understand that I wouldn’t be living in the same America as he would. He tried to raise me to go through life the same way he did. And that just wasn’t the way it worked.”

    Riley described himself as a big, athletic guy in high school, which is part of why, he says, people didn’t bully him physically. “But they bullied me in their own ways,” he said. The fathers of the girls he dated didn’t like him. “I got the feeling that if I wasn’t a minority, they wouldn’t have been quite as opposed,” he said. “Sometimes there are just, let’s say, subtle hints you can pick up on.”

    “I was dismissed as kind of stupid by my teachers,” he said. “Which I don’t think I am.” He remembers Meade as someone on the periphery, always trying to start a fight, including a few times with him. It never happened, but it didn’t surprise him that Meade was behind what happened on Sunday — or that the rest of the town reacted the way it did.

    “I knew they were going to run into trouble,” he said. “The question was how much? There’s an undercurrent of hatred in that small town, in all those surrounding towns. I saw it. I swam in it. I survived it. I didn’t exactly thrive in it. The first chance I got, I ran like hell. Because they don’t like the other, and I was always the other.”

    They can’t understand themselves as racist, Riley said, because they cannot empathize with the experience of it. They can’t see it because they haven’t felt it or listened when others described it. Their closest experience is hearing the phrase “Black lives matter” and thinking that it is actually racist against white people.

    “They’ve been taught all their lives that if you work hard, everything’s gonna be just fine,” Riley said. “But they see now that they worked hard, and did the work, and they didn’t get what was promised. They’re so mad, and they turn that hatred inward and feel inadequate. But Trump says, ‘No, I can ease your pain. These people over there, they’re to blame. It’s their fault.’”

    “People have been telling you that your bigotry is bad, and you should feel bad,” he continued. “But Trump is there to tell you: It’s good.”

    It wasn’t until the end of our conversation that Riley started telling me all the things that had happened to him as a child in Bethel. He listed them offhandedly, like reciting the groceries he needed at the store. The police had stopped him dozens of times without cause. An officer used to refer to him as “Tyrone” every time he saw him. One time, when Riley entered a restaurant in a nearby town, a white dude started singing Dixie and replacing the words with racial slurs. Another time he was riding his 10-speed and turned around in a driveway, and saw someone come out onto the porch. It was one of his classmates. He started yelling: “Get out of my driveway, nigger.”

    “I could tell you stories for hours,” he said. “At the time, I didn’t fully grasp how wrong it was. It was just my life.”

    There was no local television news to document what happened in Bethel on that Sunday afternoon. Only video from phones, which spread quickly on Facebook, on Twitter, and on YouTube, eventually sparking dozens of stories in the national and local press. “A peaceful protester in Bethel, Ohio was sucker-punched in the head right in front of police officers,” Ohio Sen. Sherrod Brown tweeted, “and they did nothing about it.”

    The day after the demonstration, a smattering of people, including two Black men who grew up in the area, drove in from out of town. Some talked at length with Meade and shook hands. The press took photos. But it didn’t feel like anything had been fixed. Not even close.

    Members of the Historical Society are mad. Coworkers are mad. Quilting circle members are mad. Family members are mad. But some people are sorry, too. Andrea told me that one of the counterprotesters who refused to leave her and her mom alone had reached out to arrange a phone call. Others have messaged her on Facebook to say, I saw my aunt in that video, and I’m so sorry. Andrea’s brother, a former wrestling coach, coached the son of one of the men who was most vocal toward his mom at the protest. That man has since apologized.

    “I’m open to accepting these apologies,” Andrea said. “But this is about deeper issues. It’s not, like, an individual thing. People have said that we should press charges, but I dunno. I feel bad. All over the country, they’re trash-talking Bethel, saying we should bulldoze the entire town. And that really hurts.”

    The local pastors, including Pastor Eblin, convened a walk through the village, praying over the sights of conflict. Eblin’s co-pastor, Ben Hurst, wrote an op-ed for USA Today, claiming that in his two decades in Bethel, he had “not witnessed any kind of racist comment publicly or privately.” Their disparate reactions to the demonstration sparked a much larger dialogue between the two men. “We’ve had to have some heart-to-heart conversations,” Eblin told me. “Because he knows these people. He’s been here for 20 years and is able to say, Hey, we can do better.”

    “The town’s called Bethel,” Eblin pointed out. “It’s a town of meaning. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this is happening in a place with the name of the House of God. I just wish people would’ve seen God’s people shining, and not that hate.”

    “No one’s apologized to me,” Gee said. “And the Village Council hasn’t apologized or articulated any real condemnation of the actions that were perpetrated on us. There’s a lot of calls for discussion right now, but the call is kind of like, hey, person who was abused, you should sit down with your abuser. The people who are calling for us to sit down together, they’re not recognizing that.”

    Like everyone else I spoke with, Gee would do it all over again. There’s a lot of processing, and reckoning — particularly among the white participants — that what they experienced was just a brief window into what people of color experience navigating a world still shaped, in every corner, by white supremacy.

    With time, Gee said, they’ll move forward. “This is such a country thing to say, but in the big city, if you’re an organizer, you might know a bunch of people, and have a fair amount of connections, but you don’t know everyone. Here in the village, I know everyone. I know where people live and I taught their children — that very easily opens that door for conversation and change.”

    “These conversations are important,” she continued. “They’ve moved from you were attacked to what does this mean? They haven’t been happening for decades. But here we are. And it’s time.”●


    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    My assumption is the contrary: if the police in general maltreats blacks, so black policemen are also held responsible for such malpractice.
    Black police qua police? I agree.

    If there is no registration for gun ownership there is no possible way to correctly gauge the number of guns owned by any race.
    This information is generally accessed or estimated the same way most national gun ownership data are: voluntary survey. For example

    The only other way I know of would be modeling using economic data relating to production, sales, and federal background checks.

    Yet when given a choice you always opt for racial explanation?
    Systematic, general, well-documented causes will tend to have more explanatory power toward consistent, convergent events than assuming random chance in any instance. In the interpretation of human affairs, the latter is usually relegated to producing humorous effect in movies.

    So you have to be old and experienced to learn to condone submitting counterfeit money if you know the person who did it?
    If one believes a customer has paid with counterfeit money, there are a number of approaches to take. I agree that one doesn't have to be old and experienced to realize that.

    And that is why he was buried in a golden casket?
    Floyd Mayweather paid for it, and Floyd's family accepted it. Why do the man's funerary arrangements bother you so much?

    Being buried in gold is a sign of profound veneration. Which, in view of his criminal past he didn't deserve.
    Why would anyone care what you think he deserved? Did you bury him?

    1. I didn't defend Bandera. My point was and is that we should know all the details of any person and see both the bad and the good sides to him. And each person should be lauded for what good he did, and denounced for what bad he did. In the case of Bandera many people see only what they choose to, forgetting the opposite. I tried to show all sides of his personality. But it is a usual story with many other historical figures like Bohdan Kmelnitsky who fought to liberate Ukraine from Poland, but in this fight mass atrocities against the Polish and the Jews happened.
    Why is such a nuanced treatment reserved to your countryman, who was definitely a pretty ruthless mass killer on par with Che Guevara. It has to be objectively certain he threatened more people with guns than Floyd did, if that's what it takes.

    BLM: The murder of George Floyd is another sorry episode in our deeply unjust system of policing and governance.
    Gilrandir: But he was no angel.

    Anyone: Wasn't Bandera a war criminal?
    Gilrandir: We have to take the good with the bad.


    2. There is no criterion to judge a person to be better or worse
    Well then, that's an interesting worldview. I don't understand how to make it consistent with your earlier criticism of Floyd or the likes of Zelensky or Putin though, if all those individuals are no better or worse than you.

    I believe that assessing Floyd (or any other person for that matter) we should also try to see all his possible worlds and assess them. Current obsession with him tends to ignore the shadiest aspects of his personality which makes his overall portrait lop-sided.
    But whose obsession is it? You're the one fixated on George Floyd as a person. If you felt so strongly you would have no shortage of alternates to Floyd to associate, yet you don't. As in,

    BLM: The murder of George Floyd is another sorry episode in our deeply unjust system of policing and governance.
    Gilrandir: But he was no angel.

    Anyone: Wasn't Bandera a war criminal?
    Gilrandir: We have to take the good with the bad.
    the first case is one where the individual person is irrelevant to the purpose or activities of a movement, yet becomes more deserving of scrutiny than when the individual is the very subject. I'm just highlighting the disparate consideration you're affording.

    Do you remember that ther was no racism in the USSR and all people were proclaimed equal? Moreover, the Soviet ideology contrasted the free Soviet society where all were treated the same with capitalist countries that were grounded on oppression of other races in colonies and metropolis.
    The famously egalitarian Soviet Union in which non-Russians could count on the good will and protection of the Russian state. It would be truer to say everyone in the Soviet Union had free housing than that there was no racism. There was no racism in the Soviet Union the way the Western (white) working class were living in desperate poverty, waiting for their moment to rise up against the capitalist class, which is to say it was just legitimating propaganda.

    In the book "Поднятая целина" by Sholokhov one of the characters (Makar Nagulnov) was a strong partisan of interracial marriages. The whole movie "Цирк" is a story of an American circus lady who had a black son and was censured and even ostracized in the USA so she had to come to the USSR where she and her son could finally find the land of milk and honey. Soviet leaders often met with the leaders of African ex-colonies and supported them in all possible ways. African students studied in Soviet universities. So the official doctrine was anything but racist.
    The documentation of formal and cultural racism in the Soviet Union is so overwhelming I have to believe you're trolling me.

    It was the official doctrine of the Communists since the inception of the USSR. Everybody was proclaimed equal irrespective of their sex, age, race, and so on.
    We were 150 years ahead of you in the Declaration of Independence, but it didn't solve that problem for posterity.

    The massacre had nothing to do with inequality issues - just exterminating the useless/dangerous people. And in this respect all were equal - people with certain political views could be disposed of, irrespective of their race, nationality, sex and so on.
    All the minorities Stalin massacred, deported to Siberia/Central Asia, or merely imposed legal discrimination against, are erased in this telling. And Stalin himself had a particular animosity toward Polish people.

    But you forget about the difference between officially proclaimed doctrine and the actual practice. The latter included anti-semitism, the policy of eradicating national sentiment, melting all nationalities of the USSR into one ubernational entity - the Soviet people, criminal persecition of homosexuals and a lot of other things that were at odds with the officially sanctioned ideology of equality.


    So - were you representing the foregoing quotes as true facts or not??? If not, why say it?

    Like, I still remember a year or two ago when you (fairly) became irritated with me for using a Russian ethnic slur for Ukrainians.

    Thus, representing Africa as a dangerous land in a children's poem is devoid of any racial issues. Australia, Amazonia, Indochina could be used as well if it suited the metrics of the poem. As is the way with Americans, they see race and gender where there is none.
    First of all, even had the USSR had the best racial record of any society in human history that would not change the facts around this specific artifact. Iran is famously known as the land of no homosexuals whatsoever, you see, but if people were to indulge in same-sex intercourse in Iran, that activity would not somehow become conceptually titrated into something else entirely. See also, "В СССР секса нет."

    You present a scenario in which the author innocuously wanted to generate a poem about wild animals and cannibals in a dangerous land, and had such a specific meter in mind that he had no choice but to go with Africa.

    That's insultingly stupid.

    You identify no evidence for such a process, and it is made preposterous by the inclusion of references to gorillas, sharks, and crocodiles - to fit all these words into a bare meter requires premeditation on the text. So the author almost certainly set out to write about Africa, relying on assumptions and tropes about Africa that were widespread around Europe at the time, which tropes you must acknowledge as racist. You also suggest he could also have considered writing about the Amazon, Indochina, or Australia instead, somehow not realizing that this reinforces the racism, since in all cases these were perceived as wild lands full of wild animals and similarly-wild people. How did this escape your notice?

    But in the first analysis, the poem is itself racist in its actual content, and the content cannot become non-racist by appeal to convenience. Prioritizing the metrics - as if that could even possibly have been the primary consideration - to justify that content is itself racist. The author could at least have averted the overt racism by writing about a fictional place, though the very concept would have been inescapably informed by his context.

    On a sidenote, I read a critic's take on feminism in Tolkien's books and the critic claimed that when Frodo and Sam went through Shelob's tunnel it was a reflection of penetration into female pudenda and the growths that were on the walls where like pubic hair.

    Don't become like that in treating simple stories.
    There's no symbolic transitivity here, just recognition of straight reproduction of very well-worn racist ideas. I'm saying a cigar is a cigar, you're saying maybe it's a lollipop.

    And disregarding his character makes the whole picture incomplete and biased.
    Rule of law is definitionally meant to operate independent of the character of individuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    You do the same. Branding somebody as racist/nazi/obcurantist/... is a perfect move after which one doesn't have to offer any proofs of such a conclusion and may cease arguing since it is useless to try to prove something to a racist/nazi/obcurantist/... An impeccable move. Way to go.
    Whether someone is a racist/Nazi/obscurantist tends to have a much greater material relevance to a person's positions and their evaluation than does their hairstyle. I'm sure you wouldn't entertain, for example:

    A: Ukraine should surrender to the imperial will of Russia.
    B: Isn't Putin documented paying you a million rubles to say this?
    A: DEBATE ME


    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    What I consistently tried to argue is that police brutality should be punished but making a saint and a martyr out of a hardened criminal is another extermity many people indulge in. Irrespective of the race of the victim.
    Of course, we know that's not what's going on here, but let's say it were and Black Lives Matter were all about the valorous martyr George Floyd and his slaying at the hands of the dastardly lawmen. That would still be more salutary than whining about it in light of the "other extremity" of state violence and impunity.

    All of us have pre-existing opinions. And you too. Or does your mind change with the rising and the setting of a few suns?
    So long as we're leaning on aphorisms here, sir, when the facts change I change my mind.

    My pre-existing opinion is that everyone should be treated equally and perpetrators should be punished and their race shouldn't be an issue.
    In a racially-unequal society, to treat people equally the inequality must be corrected. This should strike you as trivially correct, yet you implicitly accept the maintenance of racial hierarchy when you say "their race shouldn't be an issue." It shouldn't be an issue, but it is an issue; we should remedy that, but it can't be accomplished by blusterous denial - just the opposite.

    When I was in America as an exchange student and lived in the dorms, I met a local black student in the corridor every now and then. When he saw me he exclaimed "Hey, Russia!" every time, although I explained more than once that I was from Ukraine. What would he say if I exclaimed "Hey, Nigeria/Congo/Cameroon/Gabon?" But did I do it? No, I kept smiling and explaining. Was it racism/xenophobia/arrogance of that student?
    It's America-centrism and a lack of global awareness, which you can and should criticize. Is it much of a hindrance for English-speaking Ukrainians though? No, of course not - they're still white after all.

    In your accusations I see the reverberations of a witchhunt that has started in the world after Floyd's murder.

    https://wwos.nine.com.au/news/nba-an...0-e0ffacb3302d
    Just like that nasty ol' McCarthyist witch hunt against Russians!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    All I do is try to consider both.
    To what end other than derailment? Hitler's armies burned many villages in Ukraine, yet I would be a true scumbag to interject that perhaps some of the villagers were racists, misogynists, thieves, murderers, and that consequently we should frame that likelihood alongside our criticism of anti-partisan operations.

    For me all lives matter.
    But do black lives matter? If you can't say black lives matter, then saying all lives matter is just a lie and a red herring to diminish the cause of justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    You missed the point. It was to show that personal experience may be misleading in trying to gauge the level of racism anywhere.
    It's a good thing that one's personal experience is not the limit of knowledge, other than in a phenomenological sense.

    And my prejudice is against being biased in any direction: both against denying racist implications and against seeing them in every single case, both against ignoring racial issues and against swooping down on people who believe that all lives matter (like that NBA announcer).
    You've definitely presented as being biased in one direction, so if that is something you prefer not to be you should re-assess your worldview.

    You remind me of the Russian-language radio host who vehemently objected to the sight of "white boys and girls kneeling for a black."

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    So now to say something that MPD said is like saying something that Hitler said? Why don't you then disband it and hire totally new people if all of them are so vile?
    That is similar to the stated intent of the Minneapolis city council. Police departments have been disbanded before, and there have been many advocates of doing so in particular cases today as falling short of outright abolition.

    I wish you had read a little about the debates in this country over the past month-and-a-half, since if you had you would have more perspective on both the extant problems and the possible solutions. They're far from parochial debates, and can give insight to civil-police relations and strategies anywhere, so you won't be bored.



    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    The wonder isn't that BLM is protesting and trying to turn society on its ear -- it is their patience for mostly doing so in non-violent manner and with as much respect for the law as they are displaying.

    Heard Limbaugh bloviating that BLM was "not about civil rights" but was about marxist "socialism."

    I found myself wondering why he thought the latter obviated the former, and thinking to myself "OF COURSE they would turn towards Marxism, it is not as though the current system and the current two parties have done them much of a favor after all."
    The hell of it is, if the US actually had tens of millions of Marxists (in higher proportion than in all time before, apparently) then we might be well on our way to putting paid to fascist filth like Limbaugh once and for all. If only! But he has no appreciation for the fact that most Americans want justice from and comity with his ilk, rather than revenge or revolution.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 07-11-2020 at 06:44.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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