POTUS/General Election Thread 2020 + Aftermath

[Montmorency]

viva la reaccion

[Hooahguy]

Shocking, shocking scenes. Incredible.

They broke into the Capitol, the House floor, the offices of the Congressmen and Congresswomen. I'm surprised the Capitol police was nowhere to be seen.

As I mentioned earlier, the Capitol Complex is massive, and was never designed to be locked down like this so once they got inside it would be very hard to stop them. There are fewer than 2,500 Capitol Police officers so there never would have been enough manpower for every potential entry point. But the real question is why werent there more officers from other agencies on-scene to prevent this in the first place and why they handled them with kid gloves. I think we know the answer to that unfortunately.
Also Biden flatly called this insurrection (@1:02). Didn't mince words, good.

[ReluctantSamurai]

But the real question is why werent there more officers from other agencies on-scene to prevent this in the first place and why they handled them with kid gloves. I think we know the answer to that unfortunately.

Spot on!

First, I don't know why anyone is surprised. CoviDon has been calling for this for quite some time. Social media was chock full of information that would have predicted this.

Secondly, as Hooahguy pointed out, why wasn't the Capital Complex cordoned off for at least several blocks, even if that required National Guard presence? Irresponsible on the part of law enforcement. And we all know if this had been blacks and other people of color, they'd be taking body bags out of the Capital.

[Pannonian]

Spot on!

First, I don't know why anyone is surprised. CoviDon has been calling for this for quite some time. Social media was chock full of information that would have predicted this.

Secondly, as Hooahguy pointed out, why wasn't the Capital Complex cordoned off for at least several blocks, even if that required National Guard presence? Irresponsible on the part of law enforcement. And we all know if this had been blacks and other people of color, they'd be taking body bags out of the Capital.

Who controls the local National Guard?

[ReluctantSamurai]

340 National Guard had already been deployed at "traffic control points"...whatever that means. I'm talking about shoulder-to-shoulder law enforcement, like we saw during the summer protests.

The DC mayor, Muriel Bowser, made the request on 31 Dec and it was granted by the acting Secretary of Defense. Unlike other states' National Guards -- whose activation is controlled by state governors -- the responsibility for the D.C. National Guard falls to the Secretary of the Army Ryan McCarthy, who then must have the decision approved by the defense secretary.

[Hooahguy]

It also has to be approved by the White House I believe. But if the info here is true, it means that Pence ordered them deployed, and did not discuss with Trump. Definitely another strong case for DC statehood, to allow full control over our own National Guard.

[Pannonian]

Pence has apparently made it clear that he ordered the current deployment of DC NG.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

@Montmorency

My apologies. You have been correct all along and I have been wrong.

Trump is not among the worst Presidents. He makes Buchannan look benign and Harding competent. He has done, directly and indirectly, more to damage our institutions and our republican democracy than any other person to hold that office. I thought we would hold up fine and move forward after 4 years of drecky administration. We will be decades recovering from it instead.

His core supporters do not seek to reform the government, but to trash it. The most ardent of those, who stormed the Capitol today to stop the Constitutionally mandated process of the elections, have gone further and actively attacked our government and Constitution. This is not protest but sedition. Trump has allowed this to fester, has even nurtured it. That is anathema.

The very persons so enamored of Rush Limbaugh's trumpeting of "American Exceptionalism" have today trashed the idea entirely. We are no better than the next developing semi-democracy and need two battalions of troops and a host of police just to get the votes counted under the threat of reactionary thugs.

I am ashamed.



Any Republican Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Senator, or Representative currently in office should be recalled or voted out at the earliest opportunity for allowing this cancer on our Constitution to spread.

[Pannonian]

One wonders what Aaron Sorkin makes of this.

[Pannonian]

@Montmorency

My apologies. You have been correct all along and I have been wrong.

Trump is not among the worst Presidents. He makes Buchannan look benign and Harding competent. He has done, directly and indirectly, more to damage our institutions and our republican democracy than any other person to hold that office. I thought we would hold up fine and move forward after 4 years of drecky administration. We will be decades recovering from it instead.

His core supporters do not seek to reform the government, but to trash it. The most ardent of those, who stormed the Capitol today to stop the Constitutionally mandated process of the elections, have gone further and actively attacked our government and Constitution. This is not protest but sedition. Trump has allowed this to fester, has even nurtured it. That is anathema.

The very persons so enamored of Rush Limbaugh's trumpeting of "American Exceptionalism" have today trashed the idea entirely. We are no better than the next developing semi-democracy and need two battalions of troops and a host of police just to get the votes counted under the threat of reactionary thugs.

I am ashamed.



Any Republican Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Senator, or Representative currently in office should be recalled or voted out at the earliest opportunity for allowing this cancer on our Constitution to spread.

I wonder how much the spirit of rebellion embodied in the defence of the second amendment has contributed to this.

[Hooahguy]

They also found a pipe bomb near the Capitol, which they managed to safely remove.

Ok I am going to go more in-depth into the layout of the Capitol complex from the point of view of someone who used to work there. In case anyone didn't truly understand how massive of a job it is to secure it:



Lets start with the Capitol building itself: Huge building, about a dozen entry points around the building itself with a number of staff doors that are hidden from public view. I haven't seen all the staff doors but I believe they are solid, as are some of the "main" doors, which are ornate. but most of the doors have glass in them. You might have seen video of the terrorists smashing down the windows in these doors to gain access. That is the type of door for 90% of the outside-facing doors in the Capitol Complex. My prediction is that this will change in the near future and the glass will be removed to prevent this from happening again.

Now there are six surrounding buildings, three for Senate offices and three for House offices (technically there's 5 for the House but two of them are further away and they don't count lol). The number of entry points vary from building to building as some are larger than others, but I'd say there's a minimum of 4 doors for each building plus a few access doors that are not as well known. Some of the larger buildings have 6 or 8. Not all doors are usually open for the public (usually only about 2-3 are open for non-staff), but as we saw today, they aren't the most secure and can be breached by a determined attacker. Then there are also ground floor windows that are not the most secure due to not having bars or anything on them, just normal glass. So its a nightmare when it comes to trying to keep determined attackers out. Once they are inside, good luck trying to contain anyone as the number of winding hallways and staircases would make a medieval knight proud, especially in the Capitol itself. I can't tell you how often I've taken a wrong turn trying to navigate the Capitol and gotten lost.

Now the offices themselves are fairly secure. Almost all have solid wood doors that are rather heavy and seem like they would be resistant to attempts to bash them down. But it also seems that the situation deteriorated so quickly that there wasnt time to properly secure all the offices, hence why some managed to get into places like Pelosi's office. There's also a super complex system of tunnels running from every building, which was useful today as it allowed staffers to escape compromised buildings quickly and safely to other buildings without being subject to the mob. I should also mention that there are no "airlock-type" doors for security to fall back to and lock besides individual offices. And the few doors there are in between corridors are the kind you might find in a house, aka kinda flimsy. Once you are in, you are in.

So taking this as a whole, its a really daunting security challenge and one that Capitol Police was painfully unprepared for. If I was the chief I'd be submitting my resignation the minute this was over.


Meanwhile, a number of Representatives are endorsing immediate impeachment, including the Assistant Speaker. And many calls for the 25th Amendment to remove Trump.

[Montmorency]

@Montmorency

My apologies. You have been correct all along and I have been wrong.

It doesn't please me to hear it...

All I've strove to do is challenge my own preconceptions about the country and the nature of the Republican party, which has led to harsh but lucid, if not prescient, places.

All I can recommend to you is, maybe it pays to seek out the commentators who have been right on this for decades, and who have consistently called the balls during the Trump era. Why did they get it right when most others got it wrong, or were motivated to? Look to them before me.

Trump is not among the worst Presidents. He makes Buchannan look benign and Harding competent.

What decisively ratified Johnson in the consensus as WOAT (or at least worst as often as second-worst) was his wholesale pardoning of the Confederacy. Without that, despite the mortal injury he dealt to Reconstruction he might not be the worst.

How many times do I have to say that we're still living through the Cold War against the Confederacy of the Mind?

A scene out of a Harry Turtledove novel:

I am hopeful that the moderate bloc of the Senate -- those folks not rabidly Trump or hyper-progressives -- can get some legislation through, at least on practical concerns like infrastructure and the like.

I too have high hopes for Manchin and Sinema. But not that high. If you mean the Collins-Murkowski-Romney crew, well, alone they don't breach the filibuster, and as relatively self-interested as they are without the filibuster they have little incentive to work with Democrats (unless Collins thinks she can ride the maverick Maine electorate to Feinstein-tier tenure). In my view the likelihood of Dems having to go it alone in whatever it is available to them to do is similar to the likelihood of Manchin remaining a Democrat. Maybe one Republican joins Dems on pandemic relief via budget reconciliation in exchange for heavy larded pork, but never as a deciding vote in place of a Dem defector.

[Hooahguy]

Report that Congressional leaders are discussing the 25th Amendment. Wrong discussion, isnt the 25th a cabinet-level decision? They should be discussing impeachment.

But I am also incensed that the terrorists are being allowed to file out and not be arrested. Word on the street is that fewer than 15 have been arrested so far. This is a travesty.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Section 4 of the 25th Amendment:

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

If I read it correctly, to permanently remove Trump from office would require 21 days, and a 2/3 vote from both houses.

[Hooahguy]

I stand corrected re:only cabinet being able to invoke the 25th, but also I read it as within 21 days, not a required 21 days. So it could be tomorrow. Pipe dream though.

[Pannonian]

Section 4 of the 25th Amendment:



If I read it correctly, to permanently remove Trump from office would require 21 days, and a 2/3 vote from both houses.

It's 14 days until Biden is inaugurated. Pence would be acting president for that period.

[ReluctantSamurai]

it means that Pence ordered them deployed, and did not discuss with Trump.

That the DC National Guard was compelled to answer to the Vice President, rather than POTUS, speaks volumes....

I like Cori Bush, but this is a bridge too far:

https://www.kansascity.com/news/poli...248321025.html

I believe the Republican members of Congress who have incited this domestic terror attack through their attempts to overturn the election must face consequences. They have broken their sacred Oath of Office.

I will be introducing a resolution calling for their expulsion.

Not going to happen, and it's not going to help what's happening.

[Hooahguy]

Melania Trump's chief of staff just resigned and House Minority Leader McCarthy's staff is threatening to resign too. The bar is super low but at least theres a bar somewhere.

[Montmorency]

"We are at war. We're coming for bodies."
https://twitter.com/ellievhall/statu...44103074979843 [VIDEO]

It's sickening, the violent malice evinced by liberals for these fellow countryfolk, to suggest that there might be something wrong with them. Don't the haters know they are obliged to sacrifice everything to coexist with fascists?

'You are a slow learner, Montmorency,' said Gilrandir gently.

'How can I help it?' he blubbered. 'How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.'

'Sometimes, Montmorency. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.'

You are here because you have failed in humility, in self-discipline. You would not make the act of submission which is the price of sanity. You preferred to be a lunatic, a minority of one. Only the disciplined mind can see reality, Montmorency. You believe that reality is something objective, external, existing in its own right. You also believe that the nature of reality is self-evident. When you delude yourself into thinking that you see something, you assume that everyone else sees the same thing as you. ...That is the fact that you have got to relearn, Montmorency. It needs an act of self-destruction, an effort of the will. You must humble yourself before you can become sane.'

arrest the president

i’m not joking. he incited a riot to try to sack the congress and install himself in office. our laws mean nothing if he can continue to live a free man.

Correct. Impeach and strip of the privilege of running for public office at a minimum (can be done with bare Congressional majorities). But I'm radical enough to think Bowser should consider mustering her battalions to make a play at physically apprehending the man. On the other hand, maybe a bad idea while thousands of juiced up redcaps are milling about the capital.


This video clip is a perfect summation and all of you should view it.

https://twitter.com/igorbobic/status...08735059456005

In a typical revolutionary-chic vista, the camera captures the insurgents appearing out from a high balcony of the parliament and waving a flag. What flag are they waving though? A Trump flag.

Someone holding an American flag tosses it over the balustrade onto the crowd below, while the Trump flag is flourished. As the clip ends it looks like a second American flag is about to be dumped. Respect the flag, as they say.

Section 4 of the 25th Amendment:

If I read it correctly, to permanently remove Trump from office would require 21 days, and a 2/3 vote from both houses.

There was another option, but the time has passed; this is the sort of thing you like to read about.

[Pannonian]

Just wondering, if the 25th amendment is necessary to allow the VP to act with the authority of POTUS, and it hasn't been invoked, then what authority is Pence acting with ATM?

[Hooahguy]

I dont think anyone knows to be honest. Confusion is definitely reigning tonight. At least Twitter banned Trump from tweeting for the next 12 hours.

Edit: report that the cabinet is seriously discussing the 25th amendment.

Edit 2: and Trump banned the VP's chief of staff from the White House. Also, National security adviser Robert O'Brien, deputy national security adviser Matt Pottinger and deputy chief of staff Chris Liddell are all considering resigning.

And every Dem on the House Judiciary signed a letter to Pence urging him to invoke the 25th.

Aaaand firings are imminent among Capitol Police after today (GOOD).

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Section 4 of the 25th allows the VEEP and a Majority of the cabinet to make the VEEP acting President. The President can deny their unfitness. Should the VEEP/acting Pres and a majority of the cabinet still maintain that lack of fitness the Congress must take up the issue within 4 days and resolve/vote on the issue before 21 total days have passed.

The inauguration is in just under 14 days.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Watching House Republicans and Senators continue to push the narrative of 'both sides' and 'election issues need to be discussed' has convinced me that democracy in the US is on its last breath. Expel everyone who votes this night to toss out states results, lock up every single MAGA hat wearing moron hold up in DC hotels, impeach the president tomorrow.

Ted Cruz is a traitor to the country.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Or wiser than some squash-the-bastards here. Like I said, the electoral frenzy is dying down and people are returning to normalcy. And would return quicker if it were not for those who mentally still live on the next day after voting and are surprised that there are more adequate people around them.

Btw, I vote that the remaining 6 people in this forum vote to kick you out for gaslighting the state of American democracy for 4 years.

[Montmorency]

Really, I'm not even angry at the redcap mob themselves, as individuals. They're awful people, but not a tenth as bad as those who foment and defend and minimize and instrumentalize them. If the Qbert shot and killed in the capitol was a victim of police overcompensation, that should be investigated.

(lol @ Sean Hannity using his program to declare the insurrectionists "peaceful, law-abiding protesters." Now that's the real shit.

Any Republican Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Senator, or Representative currently in office should be recalled or voted out at the earliest opportunity for allowing this cancer on our Constitution to spread.

I just want to be encouraging and point out that Seamus has radicalized to the extent that he's probably to the left of me from 2017.

Welcome to the Antifa.

[Hooahguy]

Section 4 of the 25th allows the VEEP and a Majority of the cabinet to make the VEEP acting President. The President can deny their unfitness. Should the VEEP/acting Pres and a majority of the cabinet still maintain that lack of fitness the Congress must take up the issue within 4 days and resolve/vote on the issue before 21 total days have passed.

The inauguration is in just under 14 days.

Well a bit more complicated than that, but I found a nice flow chart online:



Also apparently three others have died today at the Capitol but I dont know if we have any details about them yet.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Let's be honest, if the Veep and Cabinet invoke the 25th, no one will care about Trump's letter signalling his fitness. They will just wait for Pence to give the follow up letter.

The context of the 25th Amendment has been and always will be, when a President is physically dead or not available to perform his duties, is the Veep now President or merely 'caretaker'. This was the original discussion when Presidents started dying in office and the 25th only codified what was practiced since the mid 1800s.

It will never be a substitute for impeachment.

[spmetla]

The events today have been absolutely sickening. As a patriotic American I'd saddened, angered, and have a simmering rage against the President and his crew for inciting these actions today. It is terrible that a life was lost by a undoubtedly deluded woman following the lies of narcissist wannabe dictator. Her blood and the fact that the Capitol was stormed at all at the incitement of the sitting President seems to thankfully have led to a further disgust of Trump's actions by many of the fence sitting pro Trump folks I know. Thankfully many of these are citizens first and republicans second. The feelings seem similar to post 9/11 but nowhere near as strong or unifying.

Sadly the fringe excuse making is already happening, claiming that black-flag ANTIFA and BLM members were responsible for any vandalism. Though many Republican congressmembers have switched to not opposing the count of the electoral votes most that signed on originally remain un-swayed.

In a perfect world the House could draft articles of impeachment tomorrow and the senate could vote on it the following day. This together with any 25th Amendment expulsion are just pipe-dreams for those of us that cannot stand Trump. Sadly after today I imagine all these politicians will go home and then go back to shrewd calculations of what is favorable for their political fortunes though the speeches of many today show some sort of reconciliation.

I expected political theater and nonsense today and have been deeply disappointed though I still think the institutions remain overall strong. I also think that today's actions have demonstrated to the old guard political class that Trump's violations of norms and traditions can only be prevented for future presidents through clear legislation and possible constitutional amendments limited some of the POTUS powers, only the future will show though.

I think the only other silver lining to today is this will likely have significantly sunk Trump's post presidency power. How he acts in the next few days and his remaining few weeks will determine whether he has Republicans that will protect him from serious investigation and prosecution.

[ReluctantSamurai]

What's concerning for the future of the Biden Administration, is that given all that's happened in the last two months, and especially what occurred today, that 126 Republicans STILL voted to deny the legitimacy of this election.

If they want to be obstructive to this incoming Democratic administration, fine. Do your worst. But for this single day, show that you still believe in democracy, admit that your guy lost the election legitimately, and move forward.

Somehow, some way, there should be some consequences for sedtion-like behavior...

And BTW, Washington wasn't the only capital under assault today:

https://www.vox.com/2021/1/6/2221773...otests-rallies

[Gilrandir]

Girlandir's contributions have aged as well Ukraine's occupation of Crimea.

You mean like Greece's occupation of Constantinople?

Btw, I vote that the remaining 6 people in this forum vote to kick you out for gaslighting the state of American democracy for 4 years.

It's no wonder that only six people remain on the forum with such an attitude. When people here in 2014 made wrong assumptions as to the development of Russia-Ukraine war no one wanted to kick them out. And kicking out seems to be becoming the hallmark of democracy both here and in the US.