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This whole episode makes you want to weep in disgust and frustration. Unbelievable (but unfortunately not surprising anymore) that it comes down to this and that so many representatives play(ed) along with this madman... 
I hope that this might be a deathblow to "Trumpism" even though this might be wishful thinking.
All the best to you guys in the US - difficult times ahead
I hope that this might be a deathblow to "Trumpism" even though this might be wishful thinking.
All the best to you guys in the US - difficult times ahead
They will think they didn't "Trump" hard enough instead. The other choice, Sir C, is too rational.
There are too many members of the Trump cadre who are, functionally, separatists now. They no longer want to continue governance as it has been.
Civil war? I think not, but others I know fear it.
But we will be a long time recovering from this (not just yesterday, that was only a crystalizing moment). "America's Century" is over. That has been growingly true since our victory in the Cold War. What way forward?
Perhaps as we remaining "cold warriors" die off (not you younglings but my generation) a newer and better definition of that "shining city upon a hill" can be brought to be.
There are too many members of the Trump cadre who are, functionally, separatists now. They no longer want to continue governance as it has been.
Civil war? I think not, but others I know fear it.
But we will be a long time recovering from this (not just yesterday, that was only a crystalizing moment). "America's Century" is over. That has been growingly true since our victory in the Cold War. What way forward?
Perhaps as we remaining "cold warriors" die off (not you younglings but my generation) a newer and better definition of that "shining city upon a hill" can be brought to be.
The difference between being a Black American, and a White American:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/po...tol/index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/po...tol/index.html
Originally Posted by :
“The trouble with you, Spode, is that just because you have succeeded in inducing a handful of half-wits to disfigure the London scene by going about in black shorts, you think you’re someone,” Wooster says, mockingly. “You hear them shouting ‘Heil, Spode!’ and you imagine it is the Voice of the People.”
“The trouble with you, Spode, is that just because you have succeeded in inducing a handful of half-wits to disfigure the London scene by going about in black shorts, you think you’re someone,” Wooster says, mockingly. “You hear them shouting ‘Heil, Spode!’ and you imagine it is the Voice of the People.”
Video of the lady who was killed at the Capitol yesterday. Watch at your own discretion. From the video it is clear that she was trying to breach the barricaded entrance to the Speakers Lobby, which is the area that leads to the entrance to the House Floor as well as various high profile offices. It is speculated that the VP was there at the time and that it was a Secret Service agent who fired the shot but I dont really know. But it would make sense as they are far more lethal when it comes to protecting their charges.
Edit: in a statement from the Capitol Police chief, it wasn't secret service. In the statement it was also noted that two live pipe bombs were found. Definitely looking forward to seeing him hauled before the House and Senate to explain what happened.
Edit: in a statement from the Capitol Police chief, it wasn't secret service. In the statement it was also noted that two live pipe bombs were found. Definitely looking forward to seeing him hauled before the House and Senate to explain what happened.
YouGov poll. Vast majority of the Republicans doesn't consider the storming of the Capitol as a threat to democracy. Now, I don't find this very worrying, but the fact that 45% support the storming, while only 43% oppose it is a tad ridiculous. Overall, I'd rate it as a very amateurish coup attempt, near our Pyjama coup.
Originally Posted by Gilrandir:
You mean like Greece's occupation of Constantinople?
Not that bad, but you get the gist.You mean like Greece's occupation of Constantinople?
Will American politicians finally stop with the ridiculous "America is the best country in the world" shtick.
I think for most sane people in the US, that belief went away in November 2016.
It really is crazy the disconnect that yesterday even has. Talking with my mom she holds the duality of thought that the protests and occupation of the capitol are justified because they feel disenfranchised while at the same time saying that the violence must have been ANTIFA infiltrators despite clear proud-boy, Q-anon, and other links. The online fringe forums have already got the talking points and spin to try and divert all blame for the bad while continuing to 'fight.'
It's fine if people don't accept Biden as president, many did that with Trump, and Obama, and Bush Jr. Crossing the line into wanting to overthrow the government and foment a revolution because you didn't get your way though is just crazy and seditious. I'm glad that the social media platforms are freezing Trump's account for the short term future. The token resignations I still value though two weeks before the end is a bit laughable.
Questions for discussion: if impeachment proceedings are started over this insurrection incitement and election interference that should make these areas off limits for pardoning right? If so then starting even doomed impeachment proceedings may be valuable even if removal from office cannot be achieved.
It's fine if people don't accept Biden as president, many did that with Trump, and Obama, and Bush Jr. Crossing the line into wanting to overthrow the government and foment a revolution because you didn't get your way though is just crazy and seditious. I'm glad that the social media platforms are freezing Trump's account for the short term future. The token resignations I still value though two weeks before the end is a bit laughable.
Questions for discussion: if impeachment proceedings are started over this insurrection incitement and election interference that should make these areas off limits for pardoning right? If so then starting even doomed impeachment proceedings may be valuable even if removal from office cannot be achieved.
Originally Posted by :
The President ... shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of impeachment.
The President ... shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of impeachment.
Pelosi calls for invoking the 25th Amendment for insurrection, and should the VP not act on it, they are prepared to move forward with impeachment. She also said that she recieved the resignation of the House Sergeant at Arms, who was in charge of protecting the House. Similar calls are being made for the Senate Sergeant at Arms to resign as well.
Its going to be a wild next few days. A news report that Trump pressured Pence to do a coup, and the Secretary for Transportation, Elaine Chao (who is married to McConnell), says that she will resign on the 11th, potentially giving her some time to act on the 25th Amendment.
Oh also Facebook banned Trump through the 20th, so theres that. Twitter should follow suit.
Edit: this is just the perfect quote-
Its going to be a wild next few days. A news report that Trump pressured Pence to do a coup, and the Secretary for Transportation, Elaine Chao (who is married to McConnell), says that she will resign on the 11th, potentially giving her some time to act on the 25th Amendment.
Oh also Facebook banned Trump through the 20th, so theres that. Twitter should follow suit.
Edit: this is just the perfect quote-
Originally Posted by :
“This is not America,” a woman said to a small group, her voice shaking. “They’re shooting at us. They’re supposed to shoot BLM, but they’re shooting the patriots.”
Flipped off a bunch of Trump supporters on my walk this morning. They didnt say anything. Felt good.“This is not America,” a woman said to a small group, her voice shaking. “They’re shooting at us. They’re supposed to shoot BLM, but they’re shooting the patriots.”
What did they expect the Sergeant at Arms to do when faced by a mob - when the police let the insurrectionists in and even took some selfies with them - die at their posts? Unless the buildings have a decent protection (currently it is neither built as a redoubt or has the armed staff) they are expecting a standard of conduct that Congress has failed to meet for decades at best.
The Sergeant at Arms for the House and Senate are in charge of the coordination of Capitol security procedures, working with the Capitol Police force to implement security plans to protect Congress. Nobody thinks they alone need to stand alone to face down the mob, but rather it was a critical planning failure that they must be held accountable for, especially since there were so many prior warnings that the protest would turn violent.
Edit: the chief of Capitol Police will be resigning on Jan. 16th. Good timing, because of this report that they rejected assistance prior to the riot and even as it was materializing.
Edit: the chief of Capitol Police will be resigning on Jan. 16th. Good timing, because of this report that they rejected assistance prior to the riot and even as it was materializing.
Originally Posted by :
Three days before supporters of President Donald Trump rioted at the Capitol, the Pentagon asked the U.S Capitol Police if it needed National Guard manpower. And as the mob descended on the building Wednesday, Justice Department leaders reached out to offer up FBI agents. The police turned them down both times, according to senior defense officials and two people familiar with the matter.
Despite plenty of warnings of a possible insurrection and ample resources and time to prepare, the Capitol Police planned only for a free speech demonstration.
Three days before supporters of President Donald Trump rioted at the Capitol, the Pentagon asked the U.S Capitol Police if it needed National Guard manpower. And as the mob descended on the building Wednesday, Justice Department leaders reached out to offer up FBI agents. The police turned them down both times, according to senior defense officials and two people familiar with the matter.
Despite plenty of warnings of a possible insurrection and ample resources and time to prepare, the Capitol Police planned only for a free speech demonstration.
Pence is saying he opposes using the 25th Amendment. Coward. So we are back to impeachment.
Also a Capitol Police officer has died from injuries sustained. Guess blue lives only matter when they are beating down minorities.
The plot thickens:
Also a Capitol Police officer has died from injuries sustained. Guess blue lives only matter when they are beating down minorities.
The plot thickens:
Originally Posted by :
One current Metro D.C. police officer said in a public Facebook post that off-duty police officers and members of the military, who were among the rioters, flashed their badges and I.D. cards as they attempted to overrun the building.
One current Metro D.C. police officer said in a public Facebook post that off-duty police officers and members of the military, who were among the rioters, flashed their badges and I.D. cards as they attempted to overrun the building.
One dead police officer.
Quick poll on American voter views concerning the events of 6 Jan at the Capital:
https://today.yougov.com/topics/poli...tol-trump-poll
https://today.yougov.com/topics/poli...tol-trump-poll
Originally Posted by :
A YouGov Direct poll of 1,397 registered voters who had heard about the event finds that most (62%) voters perceive these actions as a threat to democracy. Democrats (93%) overwhelmingly see it this way, while most (55%) Independents also agree. Among Republicans, however, only a quarter (27%) think this should be considered a threat to democracy, with two-thirds (68%) saying otherwise.
In fact, many Republicans (45%) actively support the actions of those at the Capitol, although as many expressed their opposition (43%).
Among all voters, almost two-thirds (63%) say that they “strongly” oppose the actions taken by President Trump’s supporters, with another 8% say they “somewhat” oppose what has happened.
The partisan difference in support could be down to differing perceptions of the nature of the protests. While 59% of voters who are aware of the events at the Capitol perceive them as being more violent than more peaceful (28%), the opposite is true of Republicans. By 58% to 22%, Republicans see the goings on as more peaceful than more violent.
Voters most consider those who stormed the Capitol "domestic terrorists" or "extremists". Republicans are more likely to call them "patriots".
And these are the people that should be welcomed back into the flock with open arms...A YouGov Direct poll of 1,397 registered voters who had heard about the event finds that most (62%) voters perceive these actions as a threat to democracy. Democrats (93%) overwhelmingly see it this way, while most (55%) Independents also agree. Among Republicans, however, only a quarter (27%) think this should be considered a threat to democracy, with two-thirds (68%) saying otherwise.
In fact, many Republicans (45%) actively support the actions of those at the Capitol, although as many expressed their opposition (43%).
Among all voters, almost two-thirds (63%) say that they “strongly” oppose the actions taken by President Trump’s supporters, with another 8% say they “somewhat” oppose what has happened.
The partisan difference in support could be down to differing perceptions of the nature of the protests. While 59% of voters who are aware of the events at the Capitol perceive them as being more violent than more peaceful (28%), the opposite is true of Republicans. By 58% to 22%, Republicans see the goings on as more peaceful than more violent.
Voters most consider those who stormed the Capitol "domestic terrorists" or "extremists". Republicans are more likely to call them "patriots".
Originally Posted by Hooahguy:
Pence is saying he opposes using the 25th Amendment. Coward. So we are back to impeachment.
Probably a coward, but we don't want the 25th Amendment. It would only block him until the 20th, this is the definition of a half measure.Pence is saying he opposes using the 25th Amendment. Coward. So we are back to impeachment.
Impeachment followed by a permanent removal and ban from public office is the only way to stop the Trump threat. If we do not achieve this now and let him come back for 2024, American democracy as we know it will be dead within our lifetimes.
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name:
Probably a coward, but we don't want the 25th Amendment. It would only block him until the 20th, this is the definition of a half measure.
Impeachment followed by a permanent removal and ban from public office is the only way to stop the Trump threat. If we do not achieve this now and let him come back for 2024, American democracy as we know it will be dead within our lifetimes.
Oh I completely agree that impeachment is the preferred route. I was just interested to see how Pence would react to the day's events. Though reportedly Pompeo and Mnuchin were discussing it. Probably a coward, but we don't want the 25th Amendment. It would only block him until the 20th, this is the definition of a half measure.
Impeachment followed by a permanent removal and ban from public office is the only way to stop the Trump threat. If we do not achieve this now and let him come back for 2024, American democracy as we know it will be dead within our lifetimes.
Betsy Devos has resigned, adding to a growing list:
Elaine Chao
Stephanie Grisham
Sarah Matthews
Rickie Niceta
Matthew Pottinger
Tyler Goodspeed
Ryan Tully
John Costello
Mick Mulvaney
Still a bunch of cowards who are bailing at the last minute.
Briefly returning to the interrupted topic of the Georgia runoffs.
538's polling aggregate was incidentally excellent on this one, less than a point off on Ossoff and less than a half-point off Warnock.
In a state Stacey Abrams lost by 60K votes IIRC, Ossoff won by close to 50K and Warnock by close to 100K, in part due to her nonstop fieldwork from shortly after she lost in 2018. Georgia is officially purple, like Virginia (now solid-Dem) was 10-15 years ago.
I'd like to bring to everyone's attention the intense, suprahistorical, partisanship of the runoffs (ignoring the state Public Service Commission election that was low-key on the same ballot Tuesday). In something of a surprise to me, both elections saw very approximately the same number of votes recorded (there's a gap of ~53 votes between Ossoff-Perdue and Warnock-Loeffler, or ~0.00001% of the total). Therefore, we can make comparisons along the Newtonian assumption that both races had the same number of votes by all the same voters. The gap between Warnock's net vote and Ossoff's net vote is 79300 - 41300 = 38000.
That is to say, in an election where split ticket voters (who split votes between parties on various available races) were established ahead of time as potentially wielding immense influence over the course of American governance, not even 1% of voters split their tickets. Just what one would expect from an era of partisan hyperpolarization; and the 2020 (November) election continued the trend of historically-low rates of ticket splitting.
Some exit polling.
https://www.cnn.com/election/2020/ex...runoff/georgia
https://www.cnn.com/election/2020/ex...runoff/georgia
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ele...ether-n1252851
As expected, white people vote overwhelmingly for Republicans, and white evangelicals vote for Republicans at the same rates as black people for Democrats. Black voters make up the majority of the Democratic electorate in Georgia. Still, without a grindingly-slow shift against Republicans among white voters, these victories would not have been possible.
"Well that escalated steadily for four years."
Short thread by some British centrist.
We can take the luxury of giving the old beast a forlorn pat once we're no longer inside it...
Quick, commence the Long March through the institutions while the Black Brigades of the Anarkitty Syndicate buy us time against the ecopilled post-Groypers in the digital skreets. Service guarantees comradeship.
No, but seriously.
538's polling aggregate was incidentally excellent on this one, less than a point off on Ossoff and less than a half-point off Warnock.
In a state Stacey Abrams lost by 60K votes IIRC, Ossoff won by close to 50K and Warnock by close to 100K, in part due to her nonstop fieldwork from shortly after she lost in 2018. Georgia is officially purple, like Virginia (now solid-Dem) was 10-15 years ago.
I'd like to bring to everyone's attention the intense, suprahistorical, partisanship of the runoffs (ignoring the state Public Service Commission election that was low-key on the same ballot Tuesday). In something of a surprise to me, both elections saw very approximately the same number of votes recorded (there's a gap of ~53 votes between Ossoff-Perdue and Warnock-Loeffler, or ~0.00001% of the total). Therefore, we can make comparisons along the Newtonian assumption that both races had the same number of votes by all the same voters. The gap between Warnock's net vote and Ossoff's net vote is 79300 - 41300 = 38000.
That is to say, in an election where split ticket voters (who split votes between parties on various available races) were established ahead of time as potentially wielding immense influence over the course of American governance, not even 1% of voters split their tickets. Just what one would expect from an era of partisan hyperpolarization; and the 2020 (November) election continued the trend of historically-low rates of ticket splitting.
Some exit polling.
https://www.cnn.com/election/2020/ex...runoff/georgia
https://www.cnn.com/election/2020/ex...runoff/georgia
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ele...ether-n1252851
As expected, white people vote overwhelmingly for Republicans, and white evangelicals vote for Republicans at the same rates as black people for Democrats. Black voters make up the majority of the Democratic electorate in Georgia. Still, without a grindingly-slow shift against Republicans among white voters, these victories would not have been possible.
"Well that escalated steadily for four years."
Short thread by some British centrist.
Originally Posted by :
OK, this has blown up. I hope nothing else does.
Before I hand the mic to people who have actual wisdom to impart, let me say this. Obviously, this sorry idiocy didn't begin four years ago, or forty, or even four hundred.
All those "it couldn't happen here", "let's hear from both sides" or "this isn't who we are" takes are, at best, ahistorical bullshit. This is precisely what the USA (a nation I love, but am not of) is and has been, for most of its history.
Go read @thenewjimcrow, go read @sarahkendzior, go read Ta-Nehisi Coates' The Case for Reparations https://theatlantic.com/magazine/arc...ations/361631/ which barely TOUCHES on slavery.
Go read about Redlining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining,
Reconstruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_era
Dred Scott v. Sandford https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford
I'm a wishy washy centrist Brit. I didn't know ANY of this stuff ten years ago. I'd read Coates and see him refer to the orchestration of White Flight by white banks or the deliberation creation of the African-American Ghetto and think "well, hmm, maybe. Sounds a stretch."
And then you read about white real estate agents paying African-American women to wheel prams around white areas to panic white owners into fleeing for the suburbs, and then installing African-American tenants on bullshit mortgages they could never pay off.
And how much work, how much deliberate effort went into the preventing the creation of an African-American middle class. Good enough to pay taxes, good enough to be drafted, fight and die in wars, not quite equal access to life, liberty or happiness.
But I hadn't seen a movie about it, so it all felt less real than the movies and TV shows I had seen. Those were fictions, and deliberately or otherwise they served a purpose.
OK, this has blown up. I hope nothing else does.
Before I hand the mic to people who have actual wisdom to impart, let me say this. Obviously, this sorry idiocy didn't begin four years ago, or forty, or even four hundred.
All those "it couldn't happen here", "let's hear from both sides" or "this isn't who we are" takes are, at best, ahistorical bullshit. This is precisely what the USA (a nation I love, but am not of) is and has been, for most of its history.
Go read @thenewjimcrow, go read @sarahkendzior, go read Ta-Nehisi Coates' The Case for Reparations https://theatlantic.com/magazine/arc...ations/361631/ which barely TOUCHES on slavery.
Go read about Redlining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining,
Reconstruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_era
Dred Scott v. Sandford https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford
I'm a wishy washy centrist Brit. I didn't know ANY of this stuff ten years ago. I'd read Coates and see him refer to the orchestration of White Flight by white banks or the deliberation creation of the African-American Ghetto and think "well, hmm, maybe. Sounds a stretch."
And then you read about white real estate agents paying African-American women to wheel prams around white areas to panic white owners into fleeing for the suburbs, and then installing African-American tenants on bullshit mortgages they could never pay off.
And how much work, how much deliberate effort went into the preventing the creation of an African-American middle class. Good enough to pay taxes, good enough to be drafted, fight and die in wars, not quite equal access to life, liberty or happiness.
But I hadn't seen a movie about it, so it all felt less real than the movies and TV shows I had seen. Those were fictions, and deliberately or otherwise they served a purpose.
Originally Posted by spmetla:
I expected political theater and nonsense today and have been deeply disappointed though I still think the institutions remain overall strong. I also think that today's actions have demonstrated to the old guard political class that Trump's violations of norms and traditions can only be prevented for future presidents through clear legislation and possible constitutional amendments limited some of the POTUS powers, only the future will show though.
One way to look at it is, American institutions are like a submarine superstructure that is steadily buckling under pressure. If you want to live, you need to escape fast, or remove the ship from its environment. Sure, it's resisted the worst of the strain surprisingly-well in a life-or-death situation and most of the compartments remain uncompromised, so far. But the ordeal, crucially, that has not concluded. Those worrisome leaks and dents can't hold the water back forever, and voyage repair won't sustain the mission. It's no longer fit for purpose if that purpose is prolonged survival.I expected political theater and nonsense today and have been deeply disappointed though I still think the institutions remain overall strong. I also think that today's actions have demonstrated to the old guard political class that Trump's violations of norms and traditions can only be prevented for future presidents through clear legislation and possible constitutional amendments limited some of the POTUS powers, only the future will show though.
We can take the luxury of giving the old beast a forlorn pat once we're no longer inside it...
Originally Posted by Gilrandir:
And kicking out seems to be becoming the hallmark of democracy both here and in the US.
I wish you would have pause when conceiving lines like this one, which is not only indefensible, but inexplicable. And kicking out seems to be becoming the hallmark of democracy both here and in the US.
Originally Posted by Ser Clegane:
I hope that this might be a deathblow to "Trumpism" even though this might be wishful thinking.
The answer came quickly.I hope that this might be a deathblow to "Trumpism" even though this might be wishful thinking.
Originally Posted by :
The gulf between Republican leaders and their grass-roots activists has never been wider since the start of the Trump era. And, as when the divisions first emerged after Mr. Trump denigrated Mexicans, Muslims and women, the party is not feuding over any sort of grand policy agenda. It’s simply a personal loyalty test.
[...]
While veteran lawmakers were flatly urging a separation, more than 100 House Republicans, unpersuaded by the chaos in the Capitol, continued with their effort to block Congress from certifying President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s victory. Some adopted conspiracy theories from right-wing news outlets and social media that it was left-wing saboteurs carrying out a false flag operation who ravaged the halls of Congress.
By Thursday morning, Mr. Trump was greeted with applause when he dialed into a breakfast at the winter meeting of the Republican National Committee, most of whose members have become a reflection of the party’s pro-Trump activist wing. On Friday, the committee was set to re-elect Mr. Trump’s handpicked committee chair with no opposition.
The gulf between Republican leaders and their grass-roots activists has never been wider since the start of the Trump era. And, as when the divisions first emerged after Mr. Trump denigrated Mexicans, Muslims and women, the party is not feuding over any sort of grand policy agenda. It’s simply a personal loyalty test.
[...]
While veteran lawmakers were flatly urging a separation, more than 100 House Republicans, unpersuaded by the chaos in the Capitol, continued with their effort to block Congress from certifying President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s victory. Some adopted conspiracy theories from right-wing news outlets and social media that it was left-wing saboteurs carrying out a false flag operation who ravaged the halls of Congress.
By Thursday morning, Mr. Trump was greeted with applause when he dialed into a breakfast at the winter meeting of the Republican National Committee, most of whose members have become a reflection of the party’s pro-Trump activist wing. On Friday, the committee was set to re-elect Mr. Trump’s handpicked committee chair with no opposition.
Originally Posted by :
Representative Tom Reed of New York, who has emerged as a leader of more moderate Republicans in the House, said Thursday that the party needed to begin “not worrying about base politics as much, and standing up to that base.” He argued that Republicans should pursue compromise legislation with Mr. Biden on issues like climate change, and forecast that a sizable number of Republicans would take that path.
“If that means standing up to the base in order to achieve something, they’ll do it,” Mr. Reed predicted.
Action. We need action. Representative Tom Reed of New York, who has emerged as a leader of more moderate Republicans in the House, said Thursday that the party needed to begin “not worrying about base politics as much, and standing up to that base.” He argued that Republicans should pursue compromise legislation with Mr. Biden on issues like climate change, and forecast that a sizable number of Republicans would take that path.
“If that means standing up to the base in order to achieve something, they’ll do it,” Mr. Reed predicted.
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
Perhaps as we remaining "cold warriors" die off (not you younglings but my generation) a newer and better definition of that "shining city upon a hill" can be brought to be.
We'll need your help. Perhaps as we remaining "cold warriors" die off (not you younglings but my generation) a newer and better definition of that "shining city upon a hill" can be brought to be.
Quick, commence the Long March through the institutions while the Black Brigades of the Anarkitty Syndicate buy us time against the ecopilled post-Groypers in the digital skreets. Service guarantees comradeship. No, but seriously.
Originally Posted by Crandar:
YouGov poll. Vast majority of the Republicans doesn't consider the storming of the Capitol as a threat to democracy. Now, I don't find this very worrying, but the fact that 45% support the storming, while only 43% oppose it is a tad ridiculous. Overall, I'd rate it as a very amateurish coup attempt, near our Pyjama coup.
Not that bad, but you get the gist.
Nincomcoup. But what's worse, the knowledge that a quarter of the military wants to install a favored general, or that a quarter of the population wants to install an ethnic dictatorship? (Figures used for rhetorical effect.)YouGov poll. Vast majority of the Republicans doesn't consider the storming of the Capitol as a threat to democracy. Now, I don't find this very worrying, but the fact that 45% support the storming, while only 43% oppose it is a tad ridiculous. Overall, I'd rate it as a very amateurish coup attempt, near our Pyjama coup.
Not that bad, but you get the gist.
Originally Posted by Hooahguy:
I think for most sane people in the US, that belief went away in November 2016.
My impression is that most DC pols and professionals believe especially strongly in the doctrine of American exceptionalism. Many of the tweets and statements in the aftermath of Wednesday's events confirmed it, with talk of the "greatest democracy in the world" and whatnot.I think for most sane people in the US, that belief went away in November 2016.
Originally Posted by Crandar:
Not that bad, but you get the gist.
No I don't. The only thing I get is that you delight in constantly reminding me that the Crimea is occupied by Russia. Still I don't get why the occupation should delight you.Not that bad, but you get the gist.
Originally Posted by :
the party is not feuding over any sort of grand policy agenda. It’s simply a personal loyalty test.
The earlier posted meme said it all:the party is not feuding over any sort of grand policy agenda. It’s simply a personal loyalty test.
"I just want to own the libs. Beyond that, I have no politics."
Originally Posted by Gilrandir:
No I don't. The only thing I get is that you delight in constantly reminding me that the Crimea is occupied by Russia. Still I don't get why the occupation should delight you.
Your defensiveness makes you an irresistible target. Relax a bit, Ukraine will survive, even if you don't protect her honour every time. Did I get mad that the Greek army was expelled from Istanbul and Anatolia? No, in fact, I'm glad that our invasion and attempted annexation of foreign lands failed, which also renders me less vulnerable to jabs at national sensitivities.No I don't. The only thing I get is that you delight in constantly reminding me that the Crimea is occupied by Russia. Still I don't get why the occupation should delight you.
Anyway, back to topic, our Caucasian brothers were also featured in Wednesday's Capitol affair.
Originally Posted by Hooahguy:
I think for most sane people in the US, that belief went away in November 2016.
Exceptionalism is one of the main factors that the Trump phenomenon was allowed to gain such extraordinary influence. For a developed nation, America seems too much indoctrinated with chauvinism and militarism, both of which are inherently far-right principles and contribute to make xenophobic and racist messages more easily digestible to the wider public. Even here in the backwards Balkans, people are less obsessed with the uniqueness of the nation, the army and the veterans. The most long-term way to safeguard the republican foundations of your institution is to reconsider the values that mainstream/pop culture and the education system transmits to the citizens. The situation has improved since the Cold War, but in a very slow pace, judging from how absurdly nationalistic concepts like American supremacy and exceptionalism are still taken seriously by both sides of the political spectrum.I think for most sane people in the US, that belief went away in November 2016.
An even clearer video of the shooting. Watch at your own discretion. A question that might sound stupid to our American members: If I understood correctly, the person who shot her is said to have been a police officer, but I got the impression that he was not dressed in uniform. Doesn't this mean he belonged to the secret services or are police officers also allowed to wear suits, while on duty?
Originally Posted by Pannonian:
One dead police officer.
Given all the rioters were committing an act that they knew could be dangerous, under the Law can't they all be charged with the murder? One dead police officer.
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk:
Given all the rioters were committing an act that they knew could be dangerous, under the Law can't they all be charged with the murder?
I dont think murder, but probably accessory or something along those lines. Given all the rioters were committing an act that they knew could be dangerous, under the Law can't they all be charged with the murder?
It is increasingly looking like this was something with a lot of organization and that there was inside help:
Rep. Clyburn: "My office, if you don't know where it is, you ain't going to find it by accident. And the one place where my name is on the door, that office is right on Statuary Hall. They didn't touch that door, but they went into that other place where I do most of my work, they showed up there harassing my staff. How did they know to go there? How come they didn't go where my name was? They went to where you won't find my name, but they found where I was supposed to be. So something else was going on untoward here."
Coupled with that NYT story which said that a Capitol Police officer helped rioters find Schumer's office, its clear that the Capitol Police were compromised.
Make no mistake, this was a huge victory for the far-right and they will be lionizing this event for years. I really hope the Biden Justice Dept. cracks down hard on these folk.
Originally Posted by Hooahguy:
I dont think murder, but probably accessory or something along those lines.
It is increasingly looking like this was something with a lot of organization and that there was inside help:
Rep. Clyburn: "My office, if you don't know where it is, you ain't going to find it by accident. And the one place where my name is on the door, that office is right on Statuary Hall. They didn't touch that door, but they went into that other place where I do most of my work, they showed up there harassing my staff. How did they know to go there? How come they didn't go where my name was? They went to where you won't find my name, but they found where I was supposed to be. So something else was going on untoward here."
Coupled with that NYT story which said that a Capitol Police officer helped rioters find Schumer's office, its clear that the Capitol Police were compromised.
Make no mistake, this was a huge victory for the far-right and they will be lionizing this event for years. I really hope the Biden Justice Dept. cracks down hard on these folk.
The top brass in the military are by now pretty fervently anti-Trump. How is it with the police? AFAIK they're locally elected.I dont think murder, but probably accessory or something along those lines.
It is increasingly looking like this was something with a lot of organization and that there was inside help:
Rep. Clyburn: "My office, if you don't know where it is, you ain't going to find it by accident. And the one place where my name is on the door, that office is right on Statuary Hall. They didn't touch that door, but they went into that other place where I do most of my work, they showed up there harassing my staff. How did they know to go there? How come they didn't go where my name was? They went to where you won't find my name, but they found where I was supposed to be. So something else was going on untoward here."
Coupled with that NYT story which said that a Capitol Police officer helped rioters find Schumer's office, its clear that the Capitol Police were compromised.
Make no mistake, this was a huge victory for the far-right and they will be lionizing this event for years. I really hope the Biden Justice Dept. cracks down hard on these folk.
Originally Posted by Pannonian:
The top brass in the military are by now pretty fervently anti-Trump. How is it with the police? AFAIK they're locally elected.
US police forces have a fairly well-known problem with white nationalism. If the lower ranks are sympathetic to white nationalism it wont really matter what the brass thinks.The top brass in the military are by now pretty fervently anti-Trump. How is it with the police? AFAIK they're locally elected.
But hey, at least they just arrested the guy who took the photo at Pelosi's desk. Two days late is better than never I guess.
Originally Posted by Crandar:
Anyway, back to topic, our Caucasian brothers were also featured in Wednesday's Capitol affair.
There was also a Romanian flag waved over there, cut in the middle (symbolising the Romanian Revolution against Communism), which I found odd, confusing, and if the symbolism is implied, beyond shameful to compare the Romanian Revolution to this insurrection. Anyway, back to topic, our Caucasian brothers were also featured in Wednesday's Capitol affair.
I'm almost 10.000 miles away and this has been left, right, front, back and center news over here.
Originally Posted by Hooahguy:
US police forces have a fairly well-known problem with white nationalism. If the lower ranks are sympathetic to white nationalism it wont really matter what the brass thinks.
But hey, at least they just arrested the guy who took the photo at Pelosi's desk. Two days late is better than never I guess.
Will the insurrection and the death of the officer change attitudes, I wonder.US police forces have a fairly well-known problem with white nationalism. If the lower ranks are sympathetic to white nationalism it wont really matter what the brass thinks.
But hey, at least they just arrested the guy who took the photo at Pelosi's desk. Two days late is better than never I guess.
Originally Posted by Montmorency:
If the Qbert shot and killed in the capitol was a victim of police overcompensation, that should be investigated.
Having mulled this over I need to revise. First, under prior standards the shoot is justified - some of the only real force used against the coup - as an imminent deterrent against a violent mob by the last line of defense between said mob and their targets: the elected Congress. But never even mind that, look at the big picture. The slain was a terrorist attempting, as the vanguard of the fascist leagues (as in France 1934) to overthrow (capture/abduct/kill/depose) the entire elected government and institute a comprehensive fascist regime. As was planned online in public forums ahead of time. If the Qbert shot and killed in the capitol was a victim of police overcompensation, that should be investigated.
There are few better behavioral justifications for ending a person.
In the event this revolt was so disorganized and ill-prepared that the suitable level of escalation (which could have been expected to end the event very quickly) was to blanket the crowd in tear gas before they reached the doors of the Capitol. But they intended and attempted not just to install Trump but to remove the entire democratic (and Democratic) federal government, which we now understand the local security services halfway allowed, if not encouraged, them to do; had they been a little better organized, better armed, more determined, a little more successful, it would have become immediately obligatory to kill as many of them as dynamically necessary to neutralize the opposition. And they're still out there, promising to return.
You only get brownie points for being pathetic if you can only remain pathetic. Beyond that exists the realm of clear, present, and ongoing danger.
At some point it really becomes an uncomplicated good for each participating individual to perish from this earth. The fascist movement needs to be taught that they can't simply roll into the federal or state capitols and attempt to impose their will without consequence. Because that's the lesson so far.
If it's this easy to halfway-storm the citadel, it is only incentivized as an insurgent tactic in coming years. Future attempts will be iteratively refined.
Resolve to nip the cycle in the bud - aggressively. If they return on the 20th, either do what it takes to secure the premises and maintain control, or shoot to kill. This isn't a game.
Originally Posted by Montmorency:
Having mulled this over I need to revise. First, under prior standards the shoot is justified - some of the only real force used against the coup - as an imminent deterrent against a violent mob by the last line of defense between said mob and their targets: the elected Congress. But never even mind that, look at the big picture. The slain was a terrorist attempting, as the vanguard of the fascist leagues (as in France 1934) to overthrow (capture/abduct/kill/depose) the entire elected government and institute a comprehensive fascist regime. As was planned online in public forums ahead of time.
There are few better behavioral justifications for ending a person.
In the event this revolt was so disorganized and ill-prepared that the suitable level of escalation (which could have been expected to end the event very quickly) was to blanket the crowd in tear gas before they reached the doors of the Capitol. But they intended and attempted not just to install Trump but to remove the entire democratic (and Democratic) federal government, which we now understand the local security services halfway allowed, if not encouraged, them to do; had they been a little better organized, better armed, more determined, a little more successful, it would have become immediately obligatory to kill as many of them as dynamically necessary to neutralize the opposition. And they're still out there, promising to return.
You only get brownie points for being pathetic if you can only remain pathetic. Beyond that exists the realm of clear, present, and ongoing danger.
At some point it really becomes an uncomplicated good for each participating individual to perish from this earth. The fascist movement needs to be taught that they can't simply roll into the federal or state capitols and attempt to impose their will without consequence. Because that's the lesson so far.
If it's this easy to halfway-storm the citadel, it is only incentivized as an insurgent tactic in coming years. Future attempts will be iteratively refined.
Resolve to nip the cycle in the bud - aggressively. If they return on the 20th, either do what it takes to secure the premises and maintain control, or shoot to kill. This isn't a game.
It's a Belgrano moment. There will be some nitpicking at the details and looking to be outraged at anything they can find. But overall, the target was a legitimate one, given plenty of opportunity to not be a target, and they went ahead and made themselves one anyway. With the usual caveats about reliability of accounts, one of the rioters who was there said that the officer vocally warned her not to come through, and she did anyway.Having mulled this over I need to revise. First, under prior standards the shoot is justified - some of the only real force used against the coup - as an imminent deterrent against a violent mob by the last line of defense between said mob and their targets: the elected Congress. But never even mind that, look at the big picture. The slain was a terrorist attempting, as the vanguard of the fascist leagues (as in France 1934) to overthrow (capture/abduct/kill/depose) the entire elected government and institute a comprehensive fascist regime. As was planned online in public forums ahead of time.
There are few better behavioral justifications for ending a person.
In the event this revolt was so disorganized and ill-prepared that the suitable level of escalation (which could have been expected to end the event very quickly) was to blanket the crowd in tear gas before they reached the doors of the Capitol. But they intended and attempted not just to install Trump but to remove the entire democratic (and Democratic) federal government, which we now understand the local security services halfway allowed, if not encouraged, them to do; had they been a little better organized, better armed, more determined, a little more successful, it would have become immediately obligatory to kill as many of them as dynamically necessary to neutralize the opposition. And they're still out there, promising to return.
You only get brownie points for being pathetic if you can only remain pathetic. Beyond that exists the realm of clear, present, and ongoing danger.
At some point it really becomes an uncomplicated good for each participating individual to perish from this earth. The fascist movement needs to be taught that they can't simply roll into the federal or state capitols and attempt to impose their will without consequence. Because that's the lesson so far.
If it's this easy to halfway-storm the citadel, it is only incentivized as an insurgent tactic in coming years. Future attempts will be iteratively refined.
Resolve to nip the cycle in the bud - aggressively. If they return on the 20th, either do what it takes to secure the premises and maintain control, or shoot to kill. This isn't a game.
Hopefully this doesn't go unnoticed:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/u...a-capitol.html
[EDIT] He has since been arrested and charged. Unfortunately, the 147 Republicans who voted against certifying the election results, should get the same treatment (but won't), as their actions were worse, IMHO.[EDIT]
The list of seditionists:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...objectors.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/u...a-capitol.html
Originally Posted by :
A newly elected lawmaker from West Virginia was among the mob of Trump supporters who stormed the United States Capitol on Wednesday, filming as he stood among the crowd outside a door, rushed with them inside and then wandered through the halls along with the scores of others who had breached the building.
Mr. Evans yells several times to the people milling around not to commit any vandalism, insisting “this is our house and we respect it.” To one man, who appears to be a Capitol security officer, he says: “God bless you, sir. We still respect you,” adding that there was “nothing personal” about what they were doing. Another officer asks him and a group of others to head to the exit, a directive that he ignores. “Patriots inside, baby!” he shouts.
“I want to assure you all that I did not have any negative interactions with law enforcement nor did I participate in any destruction that may have occurred,” he wrote. “I was simply there as an independent member of the media to film history.”
Independent member of the media? Right-o Derrick...and I've got some ocean-front property in Montana I'd like to sell...A newly elected lawmaker from West Virginia was among the mob of Trump supporters who stormed the United States Capitol on Wednesday, filming as he stood among the crowd outside a door, rushed with them inside and then wandered through the halls along with the scores of others who had breached the building.
Mr. Evans yells several times to the people milling around not to commit any vandalism, insisting “this is our house and we respect it.” To one man, who appears to be a Capitol security officer, he says: “God bless you, sir. We still respect you,” adding that there was “nothing personal” about what they were doing. Another officer asks him and a group of others to head to the exit, a directive that he ignores. “Patriots inside, baby!” he shouts.
“I want to assure you all that I did not have any negative interactions with law enforcement nor did I participate in any destruction that may have occurred,” he wrote. “I was simply there as an independent member of the media to film history.”
[EDIT] He has since been arrested and charged. Unfortunately, the 147 Republicans who voted against certifying the election results, should get the same treatment (but won't), as their actions were worse, IMHO.[EDIT]
The list of seditionists:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...objectors.html
Originally Posted by :
The fascist movement needs to be taught that they can't simply roll into the federal or state capitols and attempt to impose their will without consequence. Because that's the lesson so far.
As another example of duplicity, look at the videos of people streaming out the doors when order was being restored. Not a single one of them was expecting to be accosted by law enforcement. Just a leisurely stroll through Congress on a Wednesday afternoon.The fascist movement needs to be taught that they can't simply roll into the federal or state capitols and attempt to impose their will without consequence. Because that's the lesson so far.
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