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Thread: POTUS/General Election Thread 2020

  1. #691

    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    we have people voting to make their side win, and winning is justification in and of itself.
    If you have something more to say about what is known as negative partisanship it would fit well with this thread and any other about American politics, but it is still orthogonal to the preceding discussion evaluating the definition of democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    These are basic questions to this sub-argument.
    Right, Pann is touching on the normative aspect of contemporary politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Is there a single post of yours addressed to me in a POTUS thread where Ukraine isn't mentioned?
    Yes. Do the work.

    Your record seems to be no less shameful than mine in trying to rub in things that you think hurt others (which they don't, in this case).
    Man, are you dumb or just that stubborn? I'm not mentioning Ukraine to trigger you. Ukraine is not an aggressor against Russia. Ukraine is not opposed to peaceful coexistence. It is the other way around.

    Just so, liberals are not the enemies of Republicans. Noticing that Republicans seek to rule or ruin to advance plutocracy, theocracy, and a white ethnostate does not make the observer the obstacle to peace. To mix these things up is the aim of a harasser.

    Republicans are not savages who lack agency and personhood compared to liberals. It is valid to address them directly and demand they change their behavior, as the perpetrators in the scenario. It is no one's responsibility to save Republicans from themselves.

    If there's something in my wording you couldn't get past, let me try again:

    Oh no mommy, the big scawy Republicans wanna hurt me! Boo hoo hoo hoo! No mommy, don't let the Republicans hurt meee! Mommy help! Waaaaaa!

    Does that leave you more comfortable?

    In Ukraine (since Montmorency has initiated this tradition I can pick it up I guess) we have around 20% of voters who think that Russia isn't our enemy, the war in Donbas is an internal conflict, Ukraine itself is to blame in losing Crimea and we have to forget about all grievances with Putin and become brethren with Russia again (as it was before 2014). For me it is unacceptable (like for you depredations of republicans they are doing as you claim), but I realize that we have to live with them and don't spread around chauvinistic drivel of us being Elves and them being Orcs. We should at least keep civil and don't foment hatred if we want to live in one country. Propelling hatred in the society that is already brimming with it will take you nowhere. Dial down and use your common sense.
    Very good. Now what if they decide they don't have to live with you?

    Назвался. Why do you keep addressing me in Russian and making mistakes as often as not?
    I find it easy to admit mistakes when I make them. Consider it.

    1) Inadvertently or deliberately, you brought forth another conceptual metaphor likening your political opponents to inveterately evil beings created by the Dark Lord. Good luck to you living with them side by side as neighbors!
    You said it buddy, not me!

    2) In fact, people of the west (Americans and Europeans) went far along the way of peaceful coexistence with those who once (say, in the Middle Ages) were perceived as ultimate evil - people of other religion, race, sexual preferences, etc. So by medieval standards, you live side by side with orcs and trolls. I don't see how peaceful coexistence with republicans is worse. But you evidently do.
    I'm tempted to recommend you pick up a history book at random, to find out about peaceful coexistence, but I'm afraid you'd fix on how the Elders of Zion jeopardized the peaceful existence of Germany and the future of the Aryan children. Protip: This was a lie invented by the aggressors to justify their crimes.

    Evil beings are to be eliminated because they can't be reformed. They are inherently evil. In the fantasy world. You aren't living in one but you still want to act like that. How are you better than they?
    Ask someone you know why you celebrate May 9th.
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    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  2. #692
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    If you have something more to say about what is known as negative partisanship it would fit well with this thread and any other about American politics, but it is still orthogonal to the preceding discussion evaluating the definition of democracy.
    Not really. My point is that democracy is good at some things, not so good at others. Democracy cannot do the impossible, and it shouldn't be asked to do the illegal. But the alt right have gamed the system to say that democracy trumps all else. If they promised the impossible to win, they still have a democratic mandate to do whatever they want, because after all they won at the ballot box. If they promised the illegal to win, law has to step aside for democracy, which has primacy. See the newspaper headline about judges who ordered the UK government to follow the law: "Enemies of the People".

  3. #693
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Pan'

    I think you should start a new thread. The notion of democracy -- how pure, how much, how practical -- is a good discussion. Even if it was prompted by our recent elections, I think it would be better separated from the minutia of this particular change in power in the USA.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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  4. #694
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Seems like every other country goes through constitutions generation-by-generation. A Constitution is just a document. If a nation should have some sacred civic values and virtues, they should be external to a constitution, which would merely embody them.

    In America there are indeed many people who, contrary to the original intent, honestly believe that "you can't change the Constitution." As with the flag, they have been miseducated into glorifying the paper/fabric over the ideals. A Pledge of Allegiance is only a sinister simulacrum of a civic spirit.

    Our record for stability is explained by the near-limitless Lebensraum we have enjoyed, our freedom from external enemies, and our willingness to internalize and sublimate instability against marginalized populations. These exorbitant luxuries are no longer a valued inheritance...
    Hard disagree. Thinking of guiding documents as just text on paper just feeds into an attitude of might makes right. What strength does any text have if not in the impression it imparts on someone? I know no one who follows any rules simply because 'it's the law', they must either believe in it or be in fear of it. Politics without belief devolves into a game of changing the text as much as you can to make yourself the winner or just ignoring it. Monty, our main issue with the Republican party is precisely the lack of conviction towards Constitutional norms and practice. Party over country is just a polite way of calling them traitors. Traitors to the Constitution.

    Second statement is non-sequitur, it's not that many, and it's mostly a narrative fed to liberals who want to think of themselves as 'thinkers' vs 'feelers'.

    There are many reasons that contribute to the stability, although it doesn't seem like the limitless lebenstraum of North America, or the lack of external enemies prevented a Civil War from potentially dissolving the project. Both factors were at their peak in the 1860s, 15 years off conquering half of Mexico and two entire oceans separating the US from a world still using sails.

    We also can't just leave it up to our culture to be a continuous thread of noble values and virtues. Cultures become decadent, indulgent, hateful, ignorant and if the Constitution is to be re-written every twenty years like Jefferson imagined, then we lose the reminder of what we used to be, of what the original idea was and where we are in that attempt. This isn't to say that the current method of reforming the Constitution is perfect, it is clearly set at too high a bar to facilitate needed change.

    Idaho's right, holding elections with a peaceful transfer of power is not sufficient toward democracy as, indeed, there is every possibility of those things being present in an oligarchy where only dozens can vote. There is a sliding scale, of course, from more autocratic/oligarchic to more democratic, but the early republic was not in a meaningful sense more of a democracy than the Roman republic or contemporary China. Calling that a democracy makes about as much sense as calling FDR's government a dictatorship (for its tinge of centralized power).
    Look you either go by whether the government in question allowed elections to those they considered citizens or you just dismiss the idea of democracy as a Plutonian Ideal. The US is not a democracy because we still have artificial barriers that prohibit some from voting, so by definition suffrage is still cannot be said to be universal and therefore US has never been a Democracy, only an Oligarchy with an ever increasing size. Hell, many non-citizens contribute to health and body politic of the country to a degree equal or more than many citizens, the US will never be a democracy truly until all who live within its borders has their opinion expressed in the vote. The material richness of our country comes from a globalized economy that makes us interdependent on those across the world for our own financial health and likewise we have the same power on their lives. How can we call ourselves a democracy when we still ignore the billions worldwide who suffer and prosper from decisions the US government makes. Should they have no say in such an authority over their lives?

    The self-flagellation is part of what makes this country great and receptive to social upheaval and change...but there is only so much to dispense before it becomes like an intellectual exercise of how can we contextualize our world in the worst of all possible lights.

    Another way to look at it is, where would the early US (or Georgian UK) fall along contemporary rankings of states? 2/8 points maybe? 3 points?
    A variant of Illliberal Democracy which comes in multiple permutations as the combinations of what makes a liberal democracy are 1 (satisfies all criteria) but illiberal can come in varying failures of specific or multiple criteria.
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; Yesterday at 06:22.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  5. #695
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post

    Very good. Now what if they decide they don't have to live with you?
    Do the Republicans declare they want to have a separate country?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post


    You said it buddy, not me!
    You don't have to say it explicitely. Conceptual metaphors do it for you by exposing the pattern of your thinking. I refer you to Lakoff and Johnson.




    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Ask someone you know why you celebrate May 9th.
    I don't. I commemorate (not celebrate) May 8th.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  6. #696
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Do the Republicans declare they want to have a separate country?
    They do.
    High Plains Drifter

  7. #697
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    They do.
    The source, please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  8. #698
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Here's three examples:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ris-krebs-shot

    A former head of US election security who said Donald Trump’s defeat by Joe Biden was not subject to voter fraud should be “taken out at dawn and shot”, a Trump campaign lawyer said.
    DiGenova said Trump’s legal team was “talking to the jury, trying to influence the jury. And that includes judges and state legislatures. And the governors in these states are a bunch of losers, along with their secretaries of state. I’ve never seen such wimps wearing an R [being Republican]. “You know, they’re going to have to be dealt with politically. It’s the only way you deal with these people.”
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053810494

    “Second term kicks off with firing Wray, firing Fauci … no I actually want to go a step farther but the president is a kind-hearted man and a good man,” Bannon said. “I’d actually like to go back to the old times of Tudor England. I’d put their heads on pikes, right, I’d put them at the two corners of the White House as a warning to federal bureaucrats, you either get with the programme or you’re gone.”
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/17/u...p-america.html

    President Trump argued this week that the death toll from the coronavirus was actually not so bad. All you had to do was not count states that voted for Democrats.

    “If you take the blue states out,” he said, “we’re at a level that I don’t think anybody in the world would be at. We’re really at a very low level.”

    The statement was as jarring as it was revealing, indicative of a leader who has long seemed to view himself more as the president of Red America rather than the United States of America. On the pandemic, immigration, crime, street violence and other issues, Mr. Trump regularly divides the country into the parts that support him and the parts that do not, rewarding the former and reproving the latter.

    While presidents running for re-election typically look at the map of the country through a partisan lens, they ostensibly take off such a filter when it comes to their duties to govern, or at least make the effort to look like they do. But that is an axiom Mr. Trump has rarely observed as he rails against "Democratic cities" and "badly run blue states." And he has sought to punish them with tax policies and threats to withhold federal funding, while devoting far more time and attention to red states.
    To say nothing of a plot to kidnap and execute the governor of Michigan, which was incited, in part, by rhetoric from POTUS because she dared to stand up to his bullshit, and because she's a Democrat.

    "Red States" and "Blue States". Put their heads on pikes. Taken out at dawn and shot. Do I need to remind you of what that continuing kind of rhetoric led to here in the UNITED STATES?

    That the current president was more than willing, along with a substantial portion of the Republican Party, to completely ignore the results of the popular vote which he lost by over 6 MILLION votes, and just seize the presidency outright, should signal loud and clear what the intentions of this current version of the Republican Party is all about.
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; Yesterday at 16:01.
    High Plains Drifter

  9. #699
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Here's three examples:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ris-krebs-shot





    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053810494



    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/17/u...p-america.html



    To say nothing of a plot to kidnap and execute the governor of Michigan, which was incited, in part, by rhetoric from POTUS because she dared to stand up to his bullshit, and because she's a Democrat.

    "Red States" and "Blue States". Put their heads on pikes. Taken out at dawn and shot. Do I need to remind you of what that continuing kind of rhetoric led to here in the UNITED STATES?

    That the current president was more than willing, along with a substantial portion of the Republican Party, to completely ignore the results of the popular vote which he lost by over 6 MILLION votes, and just seize the presidency outright, should signal loud and clear what the intentions of this current version of the Republican Party is all about.
    I didn't see something like "we should have our own country where Trump would be president" or "let those states that voted for Trump secede".
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  10. #700
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    I didn't see something like "we should have our own country where Trump would be president" or "let those states that voted for Trump secede".
    Oh, seditious rhetoric and behavior isn't enough, we actually have to have civil war before you "see"...

    Sad.....
    High Plains Drifter

  11. #701
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    They do.
    They do not want a separate country and did not declare such (except perhaps for the CSA fantasists among them). They want "the left" to be crushed and broken so they can take full control of this country. They view this as returning it to the way it was and should be. They truly believe that straying from the simple virtues of God, guns, and tradition is an attempt to sell out the country to some form of world order.

    Their vision of America is, at best, a halcyon distortion. Mostly it is a fantasy wherein their traditional views are the "ideal" just because they are comfortable with the implicit cultural power position that would accrue to them therein. The ideal to which they ascribe has never been an accurate depiction of the American experience -- yet they are willing to trample elements of the Constitution to preserve other elements they view as more important and obviate the electoral system on a whim in pursuit of power. Repulsive.

    They don't even see that their standard bearer is simply using them to acquire that power and has a demonstrable track record of not sharing (or for that matter delegating effectively) the power given him.

    More than many (any?) in this forum, I am a patriot of and apologist for the USA. I revel in the wonderful things my country has done for itself and others in our time as a polity. That said, to behave this way in pursuit of a fantasy that never was and gleefully ignores the problems and limitations of our nation and its history is ludicrous at best. Nothing in the Trump GOP speaks to the angels of our better nation as a people.

    Three quarters of a century ago we, flaws and all, were part of an alliance that defeated the stormtrooper types. And now my former party -- or at least far too many of them -- is all too gleefully playing those same vile games and peddling lies and hate. Horst Wessel would find too many kindred spirits in Trumps deplorables.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  12. #702
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    They do not want a separate country and did not declare such
    Sorry, you will never convince me of that. The divide is not about the Mason-Dixon line anymore, but of rural America and the cities. I spent 25 years of my life living in rural America. It's a different world that city slickers do not understand. City dwellers are viewed as welfare queens who want more government sucking the life and money out of the rest of the hard-working REAL Americans.

    They want "the left" to be crushed and broken so they can take full control of this country.
    And that would require "the left" to be confined to "blue districts" or else kicked out of the country, no?
    High Plains Drifter

  13. #703
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Again, the CSA fantasists probably would want a separate country. I just think that isn't true of most of the rest of that crowd. They want power and control.

    And I am well aware of the country v city divide in this.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  14. #704
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    I just think that isn't true of most of the rest of that crowd.
    And yet they rally around a man whose values much more resembles the Stars and Bars than the Stars and Stripes.
    High Plains Drifter

  15. #705
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    And yet they rally around a man whose values much more resembles the Stars and Bars than the Stars and Stripes.
    As I said, if you want to live in one country with them, whatever their shortcomings might be, there should be a roadmap to win them to your side or at least make them neutral. The first step should be dissecting the Trump voter, since I'm sure people had various reasons why they voted for him. Then you should deal with each group piecemeal.

    There are people who voted for Trump just because they like him personally. You can't do anything about it, I'm afraid, unless you act by reforming the very society so that arrogant ignorant bigotic bullies could just have no chance to come close to places where they could be elected anywhere, to say nothing of top positions. This is a long process but in my opinions the likes of Trump could never come to power in Europe. Ask them how they do it, but I'm guessing that free gun ownership has much to do with it.

    There are people who voted for him because they always vote for Republicans. Changing this stupid tradition is again a long process (although not so long as the first one) but it is a double-edged sword. If people are persuaded that you should appraise the person not vote because he belongs to Republicans it will work the same for Democratic candidates, so shifting focus to individuals will deprive Democrats of "their voter" as well.

    There are people who voted for Trump because he promised (and implemented) some steps that they liked. To appease them is the easiest (as compared to the first two groups). If Trump promised to bring industries back home, address this problem. If he promised to create jobs, address this problem. If he promised to stop immirgation, address this problem by introducing more sensible immigration policies (I saw black voters who said they would vote for Trump because he stopped the inflow of immigrants who stole jobs they were naturally engaged in). If he promised to mind international events less and focus on what happens inside the nation, address this problem. If he promised to make NATO allies pay on par with the USA, address this problem.

    Thus, by SENSIBLE dealing with Trumps promises you will take all his trumps (pun is intentional) from him as his voters will see that what he promised is implemented by others who aren't that obscene. Because I'm sure, that there are plenty of reasonable and decent people who voted for him, not just a bunch of low-cultured yokels.

    All of this is a long story, but IMHO you have no alternative. And if you keep saying like "The Good will triumph when we kill all bad people" it won't mend the existing divides but only deepen them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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