Biden Thread

[Montmorency]

"Chuck Schumer tried to unseat Susan Collins, and now it's personal"

Ah well, it was never going to work out anyway.

Have you and ACIN considered that attitudes may be different in China towards what you consider to be care and social commitments? What westerners may consider to be responsibilities of the state, Chinese may see as responsibilities of the family group. What westerners may see as the state's realm may be different from what Chinese see it to be. China is not a liberal society.

Sure, but I don't have a reason to believe that the Chinese are so uniquely libertarian in culture as to collectively lean towards diminishing the role of government in preventing old people from ignominiously dying of sickness and starvation.

Show me the popular movement in China that demands, "Get the government out of social security! Offload more of the cost of caring for my parents onto me!"

rofl as though Communist China didn't aspire to an "iron rice bowl" guaranteed by the government, prior to the market reforms.

[Pannonian]

"Chuck Schumer tried to unseat Susan Collins, and now it's personal"

Ah well, it was never going to work out anyway.




Sure, but I don't have a reason to believe that the Chinese are so uniquely libertarian in culture as to collectively lean towards diminishing the role of government in preventing old people from ignominiously dying of sickness and starvation.

Show me the popular movement in China that demands, "Get the government out of social security! Offload more of the cost of caring for my parents onto me!"

rofl as though Communist China didn't aspire to an "iron rice bowl" guaranteed by the government, prior to the market reforms.

It's more a family thing than a state thing. If you don't get the role of the family in Chinese society, you don't get Chinese thinking.

[Montmorency]

Heh, now that's good series writing.




Fox News has lost its top spot in the cable news ratings for the first time since pre-9/11.

It had ended 2020 with record highs in viewership, though CNN was already in the process of overtaking it.

It may not yet be clear what's going on, but it sure would be ironic if Trump has inadvertently pushed more Fox viewers to CNN and MSNBC than OAN and Newsmax. Find out in coming episodes of the 2021 season.


Also, I just learned that Finland has two standards of treason. The first is essentially like that specified in the American constitutional order, but the second reflects our more colloquial use of the word.

Valtiopetos ('high treason') is not a military crime, but an offense against the very nation or its established order. Here is the Finnish president commenting on the Jan. 6 putsch.

It's more a family thing than a state thing. If you don't get the role of the family in Chinese society, you don't get Chinese thinking.

You'll have to be more specific, as I get what you're trying to say but you're not relating it to the real world. Welfarism is not a function of liberalism but rather, in one form or another, a universal contemporary consensus. Most people in every country* accept the proposition that the state must do something to provide for the sick, the elderly, and the less well-off; specifics may vary. Even the majority of base Republicans agree in principle, and they're quite possibly the most anti-welfarist bunch on the planet.

The Chinese state does provide for the social security of the elderly, and not on a mere family-subsidized basis. In the Maoist days, it aspired and attempted to provide more. Expanding social security or healthcare access is not something that would be culturally alien to the Chinese people, independent of any particular manifestation of policy or governmental interest/public approval therein.

If, as ACIN and many others believe, old-age care is going to become a very big social problem in China by the mid-century, one that will not be ameliorated in some non-fiscal way, then there's nothing to show that the Chinese public won't place demands on the state to do something about it, or that the CCP wouldn't be able to conceive or (ideologically) countenance expansion or reform of existing programs.

The potential limitations placed by extended families and filial piety on the growth of the sort of long-term care facilities that exist in the Anglosphere (and trust me, Anglophones of the past, within living memory, felt similarly - until they didn't) aren't a limitation on public expectations or government initiatives.

*Every "real" country let's say, I won't speak for the Vatican or Lichtenstein

I am hopeful that the Trumpist "Patriot Party" will indeed be formed. We will then get a more accurate representation of America's political spectrum with 25% Patriot Party, 15% GOP, 60% Dem.

Please note that I threw out those percentages using my anecdotal sense of things and not anything resembling meticulous research. Monty will no doubt have it parsed out fully.

?

[Pannonian]

You'll have to be more specific, as I get what you're trying to say but you're not relating it to the real world. Welfarism is not a function of liberalism but rather, in one form or another, a universal contemporary consensus. Most people in every country* accept the proposition that the state must do something to provide for the sick, the elderly, and the less well-off; specifics may vary. Even the majority of base Republicans agree in principle, and they're quite possibly the most anti-welfarist bunch on the planet.

The Chinese state does provide for the social security of the elderly, and not on a mere family-subsidized basis. In the Maoist days, it aspired and attempted to provide more. Expanding social security or healthcare access is not something that would be culturally alien to the Chinese people, independent of any particular manifestation of policy or governmental interest/public approval therein.

If, as ACIN and many others believe, old-age care is going to become a very big social problem in China by the mid-century, one that will not be ameliorated in some non-fiscal way, then there's nothing to show that the Chinese public won't place demands on the state to do something about it, or that the CCP wouldn't be able to conceive or (ideologically) countenance expansion or reform of existing programs.

The potential limitations placed by extended families and filial piety on the growth of the sort of long-term care facilities that exist in the Anglosphere (and trust me, Anglophones of the past, within living memory, felt similarly - until they didn't) aren't a limitation on public expectations or government initiatives.

Welfare in Chinese society starts with the family. At both ends of the spectrum, both when very young and when very old. When the immediate family does not suffice, then the extended family contributes. You cite Maoism, but that was an aberration in Chinese history, when the state replaced family. It is not looked upon with any fondness. Where the state does allow for provision, it supplements, not replaces, effort from the family.

The first paragraph above is by no means as universal as you think it is. It is extremely wide of the mark where China is concerned.

[Montmorency]

Welfare in Chinese society starts with the family. At both ends of the spectrum, both when very young and when very old. When the immediate family does not suffice, then the extended family contributes. You cite Maoism, but that was an aberration in Chinese history, when the state replaced family. It is not looked upon with any fondness. Where the state does allow for provision, it supplements, not replaces, effort from the family.

The first paragraph above is by no means as universal as you think it is. It is extremely wide of the mark where China is concerned.

*sigh*

This is from 2012, beyond what I cautiously allowed for above.

Until recently, institutional elder care in China was rare and limited to the so-called “Three No’s”—people with no children, no income, and no relatives, who were publicly supported welfare recipients.26 Institutionalized elders were stigmatized.27 Few families could imagine placing a loved one in an institution to be cared for by strangers. Most residential care homes were run by the state, municipalities, local governments, or collectives.

In the mid-1990s China implemented reforms to decentralize the operation and financing of state welfare institutions.28,29 Since then, these institutions have shifted their financial base from reliance on public funding to more diversified revenue sources, including privately paying individuals.27

Elder care homes have proliferated, primarily in the private sector in urban areas.4,7 Although there are limited data, one recent study provides a glimpse into the growth and character of this nascent industry over the past thirty years.4 In Tianjin, for instance, there were only 4 facilities in 1980 (all government run), but there were 13 by 1990, 68 by 2000, and 157 by 2010 (20 of these facilities were government run, and 137 were privately run). Similar rates of growth were also observed in Nanjing and Beijing.4

The historical pattern of residents in elder care facilities and the sources of revenue that pay for their institutional care have also changed, as shown in Exhibit 4. In Tianjin in 2010 and Nanjing in 2009, almost all residents in nongovernment-run homes were private payers. Even in government-run homes, most residents were private payers. Welfare recipients were rare and mostly housed in government facilities.

The current mix of facilities spans a wide spectrum, ranging from “mom and pop”–style board-and-care homes providing little professional care to modern nursing homes with skilled nursing and medical services.4

As of 2010 there were an estimated 40,000 elder care facilities and 3.15 million beds in those facilities nationwide.30 On a per capita basis, China has about half as many long-term care beds per 1,000 older people as most developed countries do. Just 1.5–2.0 percent of people ages sixty-five and older live in residential care facilities in China, compared with 4–8 percent in Western countries.31,32

China’s twelfth five-year plan (2011–15) for socioeconomic development set a goal of adding another 3.42 million beds in the next five years, to boost total capacity to thirty beds per 1,000 elders ages sixty and older by 2015, from roughly eighteen beds per 1,000 elders in 2011.30

(American) Medicaid and Medicare pay for senior secondary care and assisted living in private residence.

You have an unrealistic and ossified view of Chinese culture. China is, at furthest, where we were a century ago.

[ReluctantSamurai]

After all the BS about the voting process this past election, you just knew THIS was coming:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-voting-rights

After an election filled with misinformation and lies about fraud, Republicans have doubled down with a surge of bills to further restrict voting access in recent months, according to a new analysis by the Brennan Center for Justice.
There are currently 106 pending bills across 28 states that would restrict access to voting, according to the data. That’s a sharp increase from nearly a year ago, when there were 35 restrictive bills pending across 15 states.

[Hooahguy]

After all the BS about the voting process this past election, you just knew THIS was coming:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-voting-rights

The most distressing part of all of this is that even if a new voting rights act is signed into law to prevent the GOP from enacting such BS changes, you know that the courts will strike down large parts of it like they did the original VRA.

[Pannonian]

*sigh*

This is from 2012, beyond what I cautiously allowed for above.



(American) Medicaid and Medicare pay for senior secondary care and assisted living in private residence.

You have an unrealistic and ossified view of Chinese culture. China is, at furthest, where we were a century ago.

Try this more recent article on the matter, from 2020. The culture still overwhelmingly looks to family first of all, and then private supplements funded by family. Care for the elderly is a family thing in China, not a state thing.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Thank You Georgia for giving us this twit... She's at it again:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/marjor...-space-lasers/

Yep...space lasers and the Jews....

[Montmorency]

Heck yeah.

A member of congress thinks there is a Jewish Laser beam to clear space or something for high speed rail and on Sunday TV pundits will ask democrats why they can’t find middle ground on Covid relief. All of these otherwise smart people will pretend not to know the answer.

It's not about the money, it's about sending a message. *joker meme*

Gotta squeeze these wall street gamblers.

Isn't most Gamestop stock held long by institutional investors, like Blackrock? Screwing Wall Street Peter to pay Wall Street Paul...

Try this more recent article on the matter, from 2020. The culture still overwhelmingly looks to family first of all, and then private supplements funded by family. Care for the elderly is a family thing in China, not a state thing.

This stereotyping is getting a little demeaning.

Further insight into the family-oriented culture of the inscrutable Oriental mind.

Back to reality, the Chinese culture has shifted tremendously, and it will very obviously continue to do so as all the supporting structures for this tradition erode or are replaced or pressured as time passes. Note, ACIN, that this is not in the context of what challenges the future demographics of China may pose to the Chinese government, or how it would overcome them; this is simply outlining the uncontestable insight that Chinese culture will adapt to and adopt increasing demands by the Chinese public on both public and private sectors to supplement traditional old-age care fiscally, medically, and through a variety of assisted, residential, institutional, or community care modalities.

As seen in the very article Pan links, because duh.

In 2012, there were fewer than three nursing home beds for every 100 elderly residents in Shanghai. And despite government pledges to provide thousands of extra beds by 2022, the problem remains equally acute today. Many downtown facilities have waiting lists stretching well over a year.

Shortages of in-home caretakers — who do the vast majority of care work in the city — are even more severe. A decade ago, surveys suggested Shanghai needed an extra 550,000 domestic workers to meet its elder care needs.

“My mother has three children and the three of us shared the responsibility of providing for her,” says Huang. “I can’t imagine what things will be like when I get too old to take care of myself. My child’s generation is the country’s first generation of single children. They’re going to deal with huge pressure.”

Care solutions for the elderly have only grown hundreds-fold in China since the market reforms. Clearly, as the elderly population booms and China continues to get richer and more assertive, the only plausible outcome is that they will, by the operation of some mystical and observably-declining cultural factors, cease to grow.

No, it doesn't take an expert to follow the crumbs and predict that the private industry will consolidate and rationalize and the expansion of the public safety net will at a minimum become a subject of ongoing debate. It doesn't take an expert because it happens everywhere that the elderly population booms. The Chinese are not magic space aliens, they're modern human beings. Just ask the Japanese and South Koreans how they're treating the 'family-only' model. Although, to be fair (???) to the South Koreans, they seem to be getting by in adopting the model of simply not giving a shit. Actually, it's not wild to imagine the Chinese government endorsing such a 'solution', even in the case that SK later amends it.


For a proxy worth the comparison, Asian-American attitudes to nursing homes (the most 'extreme' option in long-term care):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6403016/

Approximately 38% of the sample demonstrated willingness to use a nursing home. Higher odds for willingness were observed among those with advanced age, female gender, Korean ethnicity (compared with Chinese), better education, presence of a chronic medical condition, longer years of residence in the U.S., and lower levels of family solidarity.

Compared to polling on Americans in general, with the caveat that this refers to "preference" rather than "willingness":
https://www.longtermcarepoll.org/lon...nd-caregiving/

Most Americans age 40 and older (77 percent) would prefer to receive care in their own home, with far fewer preferring to receive care in a senior community (11 percent), a friend or family member’s home (4 percent), or a nursing home (4 percent). Among those who prefer to receive care in a home setting, there are gender differences in preferences for who provides that care: men would prefer to receive care from a spouse (51 percent vs. 33 percent), and women would prefer to receive care from their children (14 percent vs. 35 percent).

In conclusion Western society prioritizes individualism, whereas it is the sacred, immutable way of the esoteric Seres to uphold the collective.