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    Default Re: Biden Thread

    Biden's calling out Manchin and Sinema. I think he's serious.
    https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1399830599871827968 [VIDEO]


    @Pann It's kind of awkward to be talking about UK electoralism here. Threads aren't *that* omnibus yet.
    Edit: Ah, whatever. Have at it, especially if you can make a connection to American politics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zain View Post
    Yes, audit every election 100%. Transparency leads to election-confidence.
    AFAIK every state automatically audits federal elections prior to or shortly after certification, making the presidential election fully audited...

    https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/fi...ion_Audits.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Zain View Post
    I'm an independent. Party politics blinds us to half of the lies in this country, because both parties are guilty. Let's stop making this a red vs blue issue and see it as an American issue.
    What is the evidence that both parties are guilty? Seems like a naive mindset.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zain View Post
    If voter ID is just a sham to suppress the oppressed, then so is every other form of ID. Tell that to a bank which requires ID to open an account, the Department of Transportation for requiring an ID to drive a car legally, airlines for requiring an ID to buy a ticket to fly anywhere, oh and the ID required to get into any Democratic or Republican National Convention.

    Voter ID protects the citizen by assuring them that they and everyone else get 1 vote, not less than 1 by dilution of additional fraudulent votes. ALL real voters should WANT that type of voter security.
    Voter registration is the identification, and the baseline of security. Voter ID (documents) at the polling both is not what prevents fraudulent votes. Never has. In reality there has never been such a thing as widespread "voter" fraud in this country's history, though we've had plenty of electoral fraud from the top.

    But if you believe strongly in a special ID only for voting and nothing else for some reason, you should want it delivered to everyone automatically, like the information cards (polling place and table) that my city mails me before every election.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 06-03-2021 at 02:56.
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  2. #2
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biden Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Biden's calling out Manchin and Sinema. I think he's serious.
    https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1399830599871827968 [VIDEO]


    @Pann It's kind of awkward to be talking about UK electoralism here. Threads aren't *that* omnibus yet.
    Edit: Ah, whatever. Have at it, especially if you can make a connection to American politics.
    I'm pointing to the common thread in populist politics, which is exclusively pursued by the right, which you can see here too. The method is to disregard experts and evidence-based arguments, and push instead some nebulous principle-based argument that would justify measures with wide-ranging effects but where the degree and range of those effects are always justified by referring back to the nebulous principle-based argument.

    Even disregarding the issue I talk most about, and confining ourselves to the current discussion of electoral fraud, you can see this method in Zain's posts 230 and 232. Call for an ideal that can never be met (230), and then justify wide-ranging measures that crosses way more than the original problem (232). I cited the UK side because that's the current issue that I'm most familiar with. But the methodology of right wing populism can be seen in the arguments cited by Zain.

    Looking at the same methodology, but applied in a different field, see the arguments for pushing creationism. Make the assumption that science has to be 100% satisfactory or not satisfactory at all, point to inevitable gaps in scientific knowledge, and say that since science does not 100% satisfy, it means that creationist arguments must therefore have substance. You can see this in many different issues, but with the same rhetorical method. And because we live in a free democratic society, this method is very effective, as all votes are equal, whether arrived at through weighing evidence or arrived at through the populist method.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Biden Thread

    Populist politics is certainly not the exclusive domain of the right - as we can see by the speed being anti Trans / Gay / [insert thing] occurs with it now reaching the level of "thought crimes" on both extremes - the terms Right and Left does rather over simplify things.

    Accusations are as good as proof and lead to people being as far as possible edited out of a group for Intolerance. Gender? Utterly subjective and up to the person; race? Utterly subjective and up to the person (unless you are too white it seems then you're just "white") and if you disagree you are wrong. Probably Evil. And ideally should be sacked and ostracised. With some very odd boundaries: each person is individual and themselves and should be valued for them being themselves at all times and so on and so forth. But if they so much as looked at a (generally) female under 18 then they are still a monster who is preying on innocent children. End of story.

    Another good one is the Thought Crime of being Silent (or even just too quiet) - in something that Stalin would be proud of, not declaiming your approval of the current thought is itself evidence of a Crime. So you can't just not be racist - you should be "anti-racist", or more generally an Ally - whilst still not being overbearing of course. If you are a non white and hold a view that is wrong, then you are a Coconut or a Banana or to be less subtle a race traitor since inclusion for some means choosing to hold the correct views.

    Clearly there is a massive power disparity between the two "sides" with persons on one (in the USA at least) able to kill people with relative impunity with the other mainly having the ability to hurl a torrent of abuse. But I personally think that there is an equal will to enforce the power if it was there.

    Frankly, apart from on here I mainly find myself not risking holding an opinion since whilst it is highly likely no one cares what I think or say why take the risk?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biden Thread

    "Mitch McConnell" 2.0 is at it again:

    https://www.wvgazettemail.com/opinio...2d0af870f.html

    The right to vote is fundamental to our American democracy and protecting that right should not be about party or politics. Least of all, protecting this right, which is a value I share, should never be done in a partisan manner.

    Unfortunately, we now are witnessing that the fundamental right to vote has itself become overtly politicized. Today’s debate about how to best protect our right to vote and to hold elections, however, is not about finding common ground, but seeking partisan advantage. Whether it is state laws that seek to needlessly restrict voting or politicians who ignore the need to secure our elections, partisan policymaking won’t instill confidence in our democracy — it will destroy it.
    While partisan politics is indeed destroying democracy here in the States, Manchin is most certainly helping that along.

    So what might be another reason that Sen Manchin is so dedicated to the BS line of bi-partisanship, his resistance to so much of what Democrats want to get done, and this latest thumbs down to the For The People Act?

    This could be a good reason:

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...half-a-century

    A recording obtained by The New Yorker of a private conference call on January 8th, between a policy adviser to Senator Mitch McConnell and the leaders of several prominent conservative groups—including one run by the Koch brothers’ network—reveals the participants’ worry that the proposed election reforms garner wide support not just from liberals but from conservative voters, too. The speakers on the call expressed alarm at the broad popularity of the bill’s provision calling for more public disclosure about secret political donors. The participants conceded that the bill, which would stem the flow of dark money from such political donors as the billionaire oil magnate Charles Koch, was so popular that it wasn’t worth trying to mount a public-advocacy campaign to shift opinion. Instead, a senior Koch operative said that opponents would be better off ignoring the will of American voters and trying to kill the bill in Congress.

    With so little public support, the bill’s opponents have already begun pressuring individual senators. On March 20th, several major conservative groups, including Heritage Action, Tea Party Patriots Action, Freedom Works, and the local and national branches of the Family Research Council, organized a rally in West Virginia to get Senator Joe Manchin, the conservative Democrat, to come out against the legislation. They also pushed Manchin to oppose any efforts by Democrats to abolish the Senate’s filibuster rule, a tactical step that the Party would probably need to take in order to pass the bill.
    “The filibuster is really the only thing standing in the way of progressive far-left policies like H.R. 1, which is Pelosi’s campaign to take over America’s elections,” Noah Weinrich, the press secretary at Heritage Action, declared during a West Virginia radio interview. On Thursday, Manchin issued a statement warning Democrats that forcing the measure through the Senate would “only exacerbate the distrust that millions of Americans harbor against the U.S. government.”
    So it appears that Manchin CAN be pressured---but fellow Democrats just are choosing not to---because many of them are taking the same millions from corporate/industry donors, which, surprise, is part of what HR 1/SB 1 is attempting to address.

    Even Fox News shredded Manchin:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6Vz3OXIavo

    “You said you oppose scrapping the filibuster,” Wallace said. “The question I have is whether or not—and you say that you hope that will bring the parties together—the question I have is whether or not you’re doing it exactly the wrong way?” Wallace questioned whether it wouldn’t be a smarter strategy for Manchin to say he might consider getting rid of the filibuster because it could “give Republicans an incentive to actually negotiate.” Instead, the anchor said, “by taking it off the table, haven’t you empowered Republicans to be obstructionists?”

    Manchin said he doesn’t agree with Wallace’s point of view because there are “seven brave Republicans that continue to vote for what they know is right and the facts as they see them, not worrying about the political consequences.” Seven Republicans voted to convict former President Donald Trump. Manchin went on say that he was “very hopeful” and that he sees “good signs.”
    Even when pressed by Wallace (yes Fox News actually doing real journalism!) Manchin continued his line of bi-partisan BS which is fooling noone anymore:

    But Wallace again pushed back, pointing out that Republicans blocked the independent commission to investigate the Capitol riot and that Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell has outright said he wants to block President Joe Biden’s agenda. “Question,” asked Wallace. “Aren’t you being naive about this continuing talk about bipartisan cooperation?” Manchin responded by saying he wasn’t naïve and criticized McConnell for “trying to block all the good things that we’re trying to do for America,” but he insisted he will “continue working with my bipartisan friends” and expressed optimism that “hopefully we can get more of them.”
    Except that Republicans haven't given squat since the elections, and not a single one voted to pass a "must-pass" COVID relief bill, they want the 6 Jan assault on democracy to just go away without digging into it, and will most certainly vote to defeat HR1/SB1 and the Infrastructure Bill...

    I'm going to be curious how Manchin's response to the GOP assault on democracy is going to be viewed when our current governmental debacle is a part of history...
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 06-08-2021 at 17:02.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Biden Thread

    @Seamus

    It's been pointed out that we basically no longer accept racial discrimination as religious practice with any religion or denomination, yet continue to tolerate (legally and socially) formal restrictions on women in clergy and the like, or anti-abortion and anti-contraceptive policies in religiously-aligned institutions. If mainstream society has already agreed to reject racism in religion, is there any logical justification against targeting sexism in the same spaces? To put it one way, why doesn't anyone care that Biden attends a gender-segregated church?


    This person estimates around a third of all homicides by stranger in the United States are by police officer. It's probably in the ballpark given that most murders are done by friends, family, colleagues, or other non-strangers, but to really make it work you would have to categorically exclude most sorts of manslaughter (such as killing by traffic collision).


    Responsive to the earlier discussion of the regulation of voting (Herblock):




    One of the great flaws of the Democratic leadership remains, in practical terms, their lack of expressive urgency. It isn't to say that they must be constantly screaming into the media in the most intemperate language - they have, after all, failed up to this point to work themselves into that stance organically - but if nothing else then...



    Last I heard the Congress has confirmed like one federal judge so far. Many ways for this session to turn out as 'The Tragedy of Senator Manchin the Blowhard.'



    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Populist politics is certainly not the exclusive domain of the right - as we can see by the speed being anti Trans / Gay / [insert thing] occurs with it now reaching the level of "thought crimes" on both extremes - the terms Right and Left does rather over simplify things.

    Accusations are as good as proof and lead to people being as far as possible edited out of a group for Intolerance. Gender? Utterly subjective and up to the person; race? Utterly subjective and up to the person (unless you are too white it seems then you're just "white") and if you disagree you are wrong. Probably Evil. And ideally should be sacked and ostracised. With some very odd boundaries: each person is individual and themselves and should be valued for them being themselves at all times and so on and so forth. But if they so much as looked at a (generally) female under 18 then they are still a monster who is preying on innocent children. End of story.

    Another good one is the Thought Crime of being Silent (or even just too quiet) - in something that Stalin would be proud of, not declaiming your approval of the current thought is itself evidence of a Crime. So you can't just not be racist - you should be "anti-racist", or more generally an Ally - whilst still not being overbearing of course. If you are a non white and hold a view that is wrong, then you are a Coconut or a Banana or to be less subtle a race traitor since inclusion for some means choosing to hold the correct views.

    Clearly there is a massive power disparity between the two "sides" with persons on one (in the USA at least) able to kill people with relative impunity with the other mainly having the ability to hurl a torrent of abuse. But I personally think that there is an equal will to enforce the power if it was there.

    Frankly, apart from on here I mainly find myself not risking holding an opinion since whilst it is highly likely no one cares what I think or say why take the risk?

    You sound hysterical. Take a step back. No one is coming for you.

    Just apply rationality and empathy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    So it appears that Manchin CAN be pressured---but fellow Democrats just are choosing not to---because many of them are taking the same millions from corporate/industry donors, which, surprise, is part of what HR 1/SB 1 is attempting to address.
    I'm pretty confident Manchin isn't in this for the donations, not to mention that it's not credible that conservative lobbyists have something to offer him that liberal ones, or the DSCC, or the White House, don't. The likelier scenario is he's a true believer in what he's propounding, the ideology of the status quo. (It doesn't hurt that he is now the most-sought and most-valuable Senator in the country.)

    If Manchin had a pecuniary motive from any angle (for himself, for his office/campaign, for his state, what-have-you), and Sinema along with him, then legislation would already have been signed by Biden.
    Vitiate Man.

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  6. #6
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biden Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    @Seamus

    It's been pointed out that we basically no longer accept racial discrimination as religious practice with any religion or denomination, yet continue to tolerate (legally and socially) formal restrictions on women in clergy and the like, or anti-abortion and anti-contraceptive policies in religiously-aligned institutions. If mainstream society has already agreed to reject racism in religion, is there any logical justification against targeting sexism in the same spaces? To put it one way, why doesn't anyone care that Biden attends a gender-segregated church?
    Don't know how different it is in the US, but here in the UK it would be because religion is seen as irrelevant, so no one gives a toss what the churches do. The impression I get of religion in the US is that it's not very organised, but is centred around the individual and their local church.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biden Thread

    I'm pretty confident Manchin isn't in this for the donations, not to mention that it's not credible that conservative lobbyists have something to offer him that liberal ones, or the DSCC, or the White House, don't. The likelier scenario is he's a true believer in what he's propounding, the ideology of the status quo.
    Couldn't disagree with this more. One has to ask why Manchin is taking his stance on bi-partisanship the way he has.

    Either he's just totally ignorant of the facts, which is highly unlikely, or he has his own agenda to pursue, that includes demolishing his own party's chances at continuing to hold executive and congressional power. I choose the latter. When poll after poll show overwhelming popular support, even from Republicans (at times) for much of the legislation being proposed by the Biden Administration (including in his own state of W. Virginia), he continues to bloviate about this notion of bi-partisanship which isn't there.

    About conservative lobbyists not having anything to offer? How about this:

    https://aninjusticemag.com/senators-...i=86f57dd2c9e8

    Syndicated journalist and former top Bernie Sanders advisor David Sirota, along with Andrew Perez and Joel Warner report that after their vote to kill the $15 minimum wage amendment in Biden’s must pass Covid relief bill, the two will join disgraced Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel to headline a conference for an anti-Union corporate lobbying group, the National Restaurant Association. A group that just so happens to have been lobbying intensely against a minimum wage increase.
    Do you really think that the above mentioned Heritage Action et al, didn't offer up bribes...errr I mean campaign donations, when they made their appearances in West Virginia?

    It doesn't hurt that he is now the most-sought and most-valuable Senator in the country
    You can't really believe that as a reason? Because his value will greatly diminish if the Dems get swept out of Congress in 2022. He would be furthering his own personal case if he voted for legislation that would enhance the Democrats staying in power, rather than helping the GOP by blocking changes to the filibuster, and voting against important pieces of legislation. If/when the GOP reclaims Congress in 2022, Manchin will be relegated to being just another conservative Democrat in the Senate...just like he was before the 2020 elections.

    Nah....in the end, Manchin is just another dirty corporate politician taking millions from lobbyists and business while screwing the people of this country in the process.
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 06-09-2021 at 13:58.
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    Default Re: Biden Thread

    @Montmorency

    Our Bill of Rights prohibits Congress from making laws establishing a religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Biden is free to worship, or not, as his conscience dictates. The voters are free to find this comforting, annoying, disqualifying, or irrelevant and may exercise their franchise with this assessment factored into their decision.

    If enough of the public chooses to avoid the Catholic Church, over time that will have an impact. Feel free to call for the Church's castigation as a sexist organization -- you would not be the first. At a minimum, my daughter has beaten you to it.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  9. #9

    Default Re: Biden Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai View Post
    Nah....in the end, Manchin is just another dirty corporate politician taking millions from lobbyists and business while screwing the people of this country in the process.
    In my opinion this is a deeply-flawed attitude among much of the Left, this assumption that other people don't just believe things (which is, frankly, an assumption at least as common among the far-Right in my experience).

    The theory that Manchin is bought off by right-wing lobbying groups entails the causal effect of an inducement in the first place, which is to say that Manchin was going to vote to implement Biden's agenda until he was brought against it. But why would Manchin need financial inducements (that he never even sees as an individual) to perform as he evidently already wants to and always has, in keeping with his whole political career, style, and orientation? And why wouldn't it be far easier to sway him with blandishments in the other direction, with the far greater fiscal reserve of the federal government at hand?

    If Manchin were merely venal, a few billion dollars in infrastructure investment to his state would be enough to secure his vote. And in parallel, it has often been noted that if Republicans were merely venal then the country wouldn't be so dysfunctional and on the precipice of a delusional fascism.



    You don't do that for the money.

    Also look at Stephen Breyer refusing to retire because he fears his retirement will be the event that politicizes the Court. Look at all the garden-variety liberals out there who agree exactly with him (and with Manchin for that matter). Are they all getting an inducement? Well then, maybe if George Soros stopped wasting all his funds on protesters and climate researchers he could compete...


    Here is what it looks like when it's for the money:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Earlier this week, the Food and Drug Administration overruled—to much criticism—its own scientific advisory committee and approved the Alzheimer’s treatment Aduhelm. The agency made this decision despite thin evidence of the drug’s clinical efficacy and despite its serious side effects, including brain swelling and bleeding. As a result, a serious risk now exists that millions of people will be prescribed a drug that does more harm than good.

    Less appreciated is how the drug’s approval could trigger hundreds of billions of dollars of new government spending, all without a vote in Congress or indeed any public debate over the drug’s value. Aduhelm’s manufacturer, Biogen, announced on Monday that it would price the drug at an average of $56,000 a year per patient, a figure that doesn’t include the additional imaging and scans needed to diagnose patients or to monitor them for serious side effects.

    The federal government will bear the brunt of the new spending. The overwhelming majority of people with Alzheimer’s disease are eligible for Medicare, the federally run insurance program for elderly and disabled Americans. If even one-third of the estimated 6 million people with Alzheimer’s in the United States receives the new treatment, health-care spending could swell by $112 billion annually.

    To put that figure in perspective, in 2020, Medicare spent about $90 billion on prescription drugs for 46 million Americans through the Part D program, which covers prescription medication that you pick up at your local pharmacy. We could wind up spending more than that for Aduhelm alone.

    Most of the costs will be borne by taxpayers. But Medicare beneficiaries will take an additional hit. Because Aduhelm is an infusion drug that will be administered in doctors’ offices and clinics, not taken at home, it will be covered by Medicare Part B—not Part D. Under Part B, beneficiaries pay 20 percent of the costs of their care, which, for a single year of Aduhelm treatment, will be at least $11,200. Although most seniors have supplemental plans to cover these out-of-pocket expenses, prices for those plans are sure to spike, whether they’re on Aduhelm or not. That would be quite hard on seniors, many of whom live on fixed incomes.

    States will also come under pressure. Some patients prescribed the drug will be under 65 and won’t be eligible for Medicare. But they may be eligible for Medicaid, which state and federal governments jointly fund. Plus, about 12 million people nationally are eligible for both Medicare and Medicaid (they’re called “dual eligibles”), meaning that the states are responsible for covering much of their out-of-pocket costs. As a result, states could face hundreds of millions of dollars in unanticipated Medicaid spending.

    That’s an especially big problem because, unlike the federal government, states aren’t allowed to run a budget deficit. To pay for Aduhelm, they’ll have to either raise taxes or (more likely, given today’s political environment) cut spending on education, infrastructure, and health care. That dynamic played out after the 2013 FDA approval of Sovaldi, a cure for people with chronic hepatitis C. Despite Sovaldi’s stunning efficacy, its price tag and the prevalence of hepatitis C in the Medicaid population posed severe budgetary challenges for states, many of which rationed access to the drug. The similarly priced Aduhelm is approved for an even larger patient population, but unlike Sovaldi, it’s not a cure. States could be stuck paying for a patient’s Aduhelm year after year, rather than simply once.


    The thread is on point:

    People keep looking for materialist reasons for these things.

    What I've learned from 20 years in politics is that while corruption is a thing, most of the time people genuinely believe in what they're doing.

    And many of them are vain, ego-driven and horribly misguided.

    If Sinema were acting on behalf of corporate paymasters she would be much more circumspect.

    She glories in this stuff because she has a libertarian individualist worldview, doesn't like party loyalty or partisanship and enjoys flaunting that as part of being quirky. /2

    People keep hoping it's somehow deeper or darker than that because there would be order to the universe. But it almost never is.

    Think back to high school. Think about the incredibly stupid reasons your friends did things.

    Nothing changes from HS. Not even for Senators. /end

    Coda: ironically, this means when it comes to picking primary candidates you should select less for structural things than for personality types.

    Risk-taking team players make the best legislators. Careful operators make mediocre ones. Vain, quirky ones are the worst.
    Manchin (and Sinema) has some level of party loyalty though, as he could become even more notorious, sought-after, and influential by keeping his affiliation mercenary - and thus putting the Senate majority in play. Another example of ideological and social rather than pecuniary factors at play.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    @Montmorency

    Our Bill of Rights prohibits Congress from making laws establishing a religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Biden is free to worship, or not, as his conscience dictates. The voters are free to find this comforting, annoying, disqualifying, or irrelevant and may exercise their franchise with this assessment factored into their decision.

    If enough of the public chooses to avoid the Catholic Church, over time that will have an impact. Feel free to call for the Church's castigation as a sexist organization -- you would not be the first. At a minimum, my daughter has beaten you to it.
    What I'm really asking here is why is it now considered - as I perceive it to be - socially-proscribed for a religion to be openly formally racist, while this is not the case with open formal sexism? (I mean, I think I know the answer, but it's an interesting thought exercise in the primordiality of sexism.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    This appeal to trust the program is not an appeal to rationality, but an appeal to faith disguised as an appeal to rationality.
    Trust what program? It's an appeal to recognize the illusory and knee-jerk nature of the plaintively-stated anxieties.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 06-14-2021 at 03:32.
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  10. #10
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biden Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    You sound hysterical. Take a step back. No one is coming for you.

    Just apply rationality and empathy.
    This appeal to trust the program is not an appeal to rationality, but an appeal to faith disguised as an appeal to rationality.
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