Re: Great Power contentions
Surprised the Oz submarine shenanigans hasn't made it to the backroom yet:
Australia cut's bait, Shorfin Barracuda boned, UK happy as a clam, yanks Cock a snook, and china Done up like a kipper!
https://www.iiss.org/blogs/analysis/...lia-submarines
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-p...ty-2021-09-16/
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...f-eu-impotence
https://www-politico-eu.cdn.ampproje...rine-deal/amp/
Last edited by Furunculus; 09-17-2021 at 14:13.
Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar
Re: Great Power contentions
Given how much business Australia does with China I was rather surprised they've chosen purchase this - although it does make a smidge more sense than diesel subs. Anything that annoys the French in general and Macron in particular is something to smile at.
And on what apparently might be a related event, China has asked to join the Pacific trade pact which again was quite surprising since I imagine the entry requirement is a level of transparency that they don't usually do.
Given the UK has also asked to join the group, the UK could end up with a trade agreement with China. Given that both the UK and China would have to be unanimously voted in this is something of a stretch.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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Re: Great Power contentions
What's your view on this?Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Given how much business Australia does with China I was rather surprised they've chosen purchase this - although it does make a smidge more sense than diesel subs. Anything that annoys the French in general and Macron in particular is something to smile at.
And on what apparently might be a related event, China has asked to join the Pacific trade pact which again was quite surprising since I imagine the entry requirement is a level of transparency that they don't usually do.
Given the UK has also asked to join the group, the UK could end up with a trade agreement with China. Given that both the UK and China would have to be unanimously voted in this is something of a stretch.
Re: Great Power contentions
A purely trade group with no judicial oversight, limited Civil Servant baggage (salaries and pensions) and as yet no mission creep? I'd probably be in favour.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
Re: Great Power contentions
Well this is definitely an own goal by China as they essentially drove Australia into US arms through their retaliation for the Aussies looking into COVID19 origin together with their very blatant meddling in Aussie politics and intimidation of Chinese nationals working or attending school in Australia.Given how much business Australia does with China I was rather surprised they've chosen purchase this - although it does make a smidge more sense than diesel subs. Anything that annoys the French in general and Macron in particular is something to smile at.
Australia has for years just wanted a balanced relationship between Beijing and the US and the Chinese have made clear they demand kowtowing not equality.
I imagine the Australians will opt for the UK's Astute class SSNs as the UK shipyards could spare the expertise to help the Australians tool up for manufacturing while the US shipyards are at capacity already.Given the UK has also asked to join the group, the UK could end up with a trade agreement with China. Given that both the UK and China would have to be unanimously voted in this is something of a stretch.
Also, closer relations will likely entail upgrades in Australian ports to allow for docking and perhaps dry docking capability of US and UK ships, nuclear subs of course but I'd imagine the Queen Elizabeth CV could use more suitable ports so that she and the Prince of Wales can have a closer 'home port' when on patrol in the Far East.
Also, with the UK having divorced the EU this will likely add a bit more clarity to the UK's foreign policy as it wasn't really clear what their role was to be outside Europe as the commonwealth is not quite the Empire it used to be.
The choice for SSNs makes great sense though, Diesels and AIP are amazing but given the the range that Australia patrols for its natural interests nuclear gives a lot more endurance. Also, by working with the UK and US which already share intel with Five Eyes that means they can essentially plan their patrols together a bit more closely so there's less overlap or capability gap.
The EU/France may be miffed but the UK and US subs are definitely more capable and seeing as the effort is directed against China it's in the interest of Australia to have better interoperability with the US and the UK (seeing as they are asserting they're interests in the region again while Germany and France really only have trade interests).
Last edited by spmetla; 09-17-2021 at 21:27.
"Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
-Abraham Lincoln
Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.
Re: Great Power contentions
Dunno, this sounds more fluff than substance to me. Australia doesn't have the technical capacity to build and maintain nuclear submarines and its naval bases are of questionable quality. To me, it looks more like an attempt to please America and ratify the diplomatic treaty than a genuine endeavour to improve Australia's military potential. It could also work as a distraction for the domestic front. The government's popularity is waning, following allegations of corruption and the parliament rape scandal.
Also I have a feeling Biden forgot Scot Morrison's name.
Last edited by Crandar; 09-17-2021 at 22:36.
Re: Great Power contentions
The ASPI brief I posted in the other thread suggests Australia wouldn't achieve an operational SSN fleet of the size it intends until well into the 2030s, although it's a couple years old and can't account for the scope of allied commitments to assisting Australia.
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The glib replies, the same defeats
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