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Thread: Great Power contentions

  1. #91

    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    I'm talking about strategic missile defense. I've read that the promise of silver bullets like Star Wars held Reagan back from pursuing more mutual disarmament with Gorbachev, and that when Russia and China began pursuing anti-satellite capability in the 2000s, warning the US establishment about it multiple times, DoD and State declined to contest or negotiate because they saw any curtailment to anti-satellite weapons on international scale as implying curtailment of US missile defense development. (And, to be clear, it is heavily contested whether second-strike missile defense has any utility.)

    What percentage of the ballot have the Taliban gotten in their recent elections? Oh yeah, we won't see elections there again.
    Right, but it's pretty clear why this polity did not survive, with terminally-declining faith in the ability of the state to provide law, order, development, and security - reflected in the collapse, rather than growth, of political participation. Like I said in August, just because the GIROA was unpopular doesn't make the Taliban popular. And like so many stories from the "Third World," we here still living in comfort would do well to heed the lessons.

    What happened in Afghanistan is precisely what Hitler imagined would happen to the Soviet Union once he "kicked in" the door, but Stalin, Russian imperial legacy, and Soviet ideology had made a stable country with something to defend, whereas the Islamic Republic was just Kabul, an American security guarantee, and a few shitty paid-off warlords with no real power or legitimacy.


    I'm surprised you haven't noted the latest tensions along the Ukrainian border, which seem in part to follow from Russian oil and gas booming for the first time since 2014 (context).
    Last edited by Montmorency; 11-22-2021 at 00:25.
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  2. #92
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    I'm talking about strategic missile defense. I've read that the promise of silver bullets like Star Wars held Reagan back from pursuing more mutual disarmament with Gorbachev, and that when Russia and China began pursuing anti-satellite capability in the 2000s, warning the US establishment about it multiple times, DoD and State declined to contest or negotiate because they saw any curtailment to anti-satellite weapons on international scale as implying curtailment of US missile defense development. (And, to be clear, it is heavily contested whether second-strike missile defense has any utility.)
    That's the same program I was referencing. The orbital satellite "star wars" lasers was rightfully abandoned as unfeasible in the 1980s. Ground/Sea based interceptors are the only solution until energy weapons are feasible enough to deploy around the globe or perhaps in space though this would be a real militarization of space that might not be politically worth it.

    Russia and China don't want the US pursuing anti-ballistic missile defense (ABM) because they think it somehow degrades their capability of MAD. The US ABM though unless scaled drastically would never be able to defend against a peer threat with a triad of attack capabilities, hundreds of missiles, multiple warheads per missile, not to mention the less than perfect intercept chance of the current systems.
    The US system is really only useful for containing smaller regional threats like North Korea or Iran. It's worth the effort of the US and its allies in Europe and Asia to seek such a capability otherwise North Korea, Iran, and whatever other regional threats will always be able to essentially do nuclear blackmail to limit any strong measures in reaction to whatever provocations short of outright war they do.

    Right, but it's pretty clear why this polity did not survive, with terminally-declining faith in the ability of the state to provide law, order, development, and security - reflected in the collapse, rather than growth, of political participation. Like I said in August, just because the GIROA was unpopular doesn't make the Taliban popular. And like so many stories from the "Third World," we here still living in comfort would do well to heed the lessons.
    Yes, all true, however with the Taliban clearly not wanting to make substantial concessions (minority rights, journalism, pledges against terrorism) in return for international recognition it will continue to devolve into a cyst for the region.

    Only time will tell if the Taliban are better for the Afghan people than the corrupt government of GIROA though in the short term the price for peace has been increased starvation, fuel scarcity, oppression of minorities, and economic collapse of everything that depended on government investment/spending.

    I'm surprised you haven't noted the latest tensions along the Ukrainian border, which seem in part to follow from Russian oil and gas booming for the first time since 2014 (context).
    I've been watching it as well but see it less as a result of an oil boom and more as an opportunity for Putin due to European instability due to internal COVID issues as well as the Belarus migrant crisis. Likely this is a test to see if Biden will be a pushover like Obama was and by creating a foreign policy crisis for EU and NATO while those member nations are focused on domestic issues and problems is the best way to fracture the unity of either organization and work toward his goal of a disunited Europe politically and militarly.

    I think I've mentioned before my worry about the Winter Olympics being used as a time for creating a crisis by China, but perhaps it would be Russia to do so. With Europe depending on Russia for a third of its energy it is somewhat impotent to even increase sanctions during the winter months when sourcing fuel shipments from elsewhere would be too slow to respond in time.

    My worst fear is that China and Russia create a crisis at the same time. Little green men doing something in Eastern Ukraine during the Winter Olympics with China perhaps arresting the Taiwan/Taipei athletes as 'separatists' or taking overt action against Taiwan's outlying islands would create two major crises which the US would struggle to adequately respond to at the same time. With foreign athletes and diplomats in China as sorta pawns and the EU dependent on Russia for energy security there would be a real impotent reaction at the most from US allies.

    Most likely though I just see this as Putin essentially showing the Ukraine how limited and impotent the support from the US, EU, and NATO will be. If Russia is just doing a massive training exercise it's certainly allowed to do that just as the US does with its allies elsewhere which is why I hadn't really commented as my worst-case scenario while possible seems very unlikely.

    I don't know how much I'd trust the Ukrainian defense minister but always alarming to read about though:
    Russia preparing to attack Ukraine by late January: Ukraine defense intelligence agency chief
    https://www.militarytimes.com/flashp...20Bird%20Brief
    Russia has more than 92,000 troops amassed around Ukraine’s borders and is preparing for an attack by the end of January or beginning of February, the head of Ukraine’s defense intelligence agency told Military Times.

    Such an attack would likely involve airstrikes, artillery and armor attacks followed by airborne assaults in the east, amphibious assaults in Odessa and Mariupul and a smaller incursion through neighboring Belarus, Ukraine Brig. Gen. Kyrylo Budanov told Military Times Saturday morning in an exclusive interview.
    Russia’s large-scale Zapad 21 military exercise earlier this year proved, for instance, that they can drop upwards of 3,500 airborne and special operations troops at once, he said.
    .......
    This is of course the Ukrainian cry for help which given together with the news of EU hoping to be capable of deploying 5000 troops without US help by 2025 is certainly an indicator of how weak the EU is currently and how little help the Ukraine can hope for.
    EU to aim for rapid deployment force without U.S. help by 2025, document says
    https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...ys-2021-11-16/
    BRUSSELS, Nov 16 (Reuters) - The European Union is considering a joint military force of up to 5,000 troops by 2025 to intervene in a range of crises and without relying on the United States, according to a draft plan.

    The "EU Rapid Deployment Capacity" should be made up of land, sea and air components that could be swapped in and out of any standing force, depending on the crisis, according to the confidential 28-page document dated Nov. 9 and seen by Reuters.

    EU foreign and defence ministers began debating the plan on Monday evening in Brussels and continued on Tuesday, aiming to settle on a final document by March next year.

    Italy and France, two of the EU's military powers, welcomed the draft. The view of Germany's incoming federal coalition government, expected soon, will prove critical.

    "The document combines a high level of ambition but also makes concrete and operational proposals. It's a good balance," French Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly told reporters. Her Italian counterpart, Lorenzo Guerini, said it would also be complementary to NATO and strengthen transatlantic ties.

    Two decades after EU leaders first agreed to set up a 50,000-60,000-strong force but failed to make it operational, the draft strategy by the bloc's foreign policy chief Josep Borrell is the most concrete effort to create a standalone military force that does not rely on U.S. assets.
    Last edited by spmetla; 11-22-2021 at 21:10.

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    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  3. #93
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Two enduring and implacable requirements for elective warfare in the modern era:
    capability
    willpower

    Even if the EU fields the capability to deploy a brigade sized force into a theatre of war, I suspect it will never be employed in such a scenario!

    willpower
    The decision to commit to an open-ended spend in blood and treasure is not easily reached under lowest-common-denominator compromise haggling.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 11-23-2021 at 13:33.
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  4. #94
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Two enduring and implacable requirements for elective warfare:
    capability
    willpower....
    words removed by responder
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  5. #95

    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Has the tech been worth it, or effective in curtailing nuclear blackmail?

    Here's an example of what I meant.

    US rejecting EU's condemnation of anti-satellite tests by China as "too restrictive."

    If it were possible, assuring the neutrality of the orbital zone is arguably preferable to chasing what looks like a mirage of nuclear defense - and alternatively, a legitimate screen would necessitate a global arms race by the logic of nuclear balance.


    What I will say for Russia is that if they ever make good on their bluff to throttle gas and oil to Europe, they will have guaranteed a very rapid subsequent phaseout of petroleum (for renewables/electricity) in the European economy. They can't enforce a friendly government in Ukraine by brute strength, since it would always provoke a rebellious attitude among the mass of Ukrainians. They can't occupy Ukraine militarily for long - a country easy to flood with weapons and already well-stocked with them - before the human and material costs topple Putin's government. China is simply much stronger than Russia, because any overt aggressive measures that Russia could take to secure short-term objectives would severely damage its position in the long-term.


    EDIT: Also, I didn't look at it from that perspective when I read it, but the story of the war crime bombing I linked above is also a commentary about how corrupted the War on Terror has made our SF/SOF. Even the CIA agreed, assessing that our forces would just invoke self-defense to summon airstrikes indiscriminately with the expectation that they would never be investigated or challenged.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Times investigation found that the bombing had been called in by a classified American special operations unit, Task Force 9, which was in charge of ground operations in Syria. The task force operated in such secrecy that at times it did not inform even its own military partners of its actions. In the case of the Baghuz bombing, the American Air Force command in Qatar had no idea the strike was coming, an officer who served at the command center said.

    In the minutes after the strike, an alarmed Air Force intelligence officer in the operations center called over an Air Force lawyer in charge of determining the legality of strikes. The lawyer ordered the F-15E squadron and the drone crew to preserve all video and other evidence, according to documents obtained by The Times. He went upstairs and reported the strike to his chain of command, saying it was a possible violation of the law of armed conflict — a war crime — and regulations required a thorough, independent investigation.

    But a thorough, independent investigation never happened.

    This week, after The New York Times sent its findings to U.S. Central Command, which oversaw the air war in Syria, the command acknowledged the strikes for the first time, saying 80 people were killed but the airstrikes were justified. It said the bombs killed 16 fighters and four civilians. As for the other 60 people killed, the statement said it was not clear that they were civilians, in part because women and children in the Islamic State sometimes took up arms.

    “We abhor the loss of innocent life and take all possible measures to prevent them,” Capt. Bill Urban, the chief spokesman for the command, said in the statement. “In this case, we self-reported and investigated the strike according to our own evidence and take full responsibility for the unintended loss of life.”

    The only assessment done immediately after the strike was performed by the same ground unit that ordered the strike. It determined that the bombing was lawful because it killed only a small number of civilians while targeting Islamic State fighters in an attempt to protect coalition forces, the command said. Therefore no formal war crime notification, criminal investigation or disciplinary action was warranted, it said, adding that the other deaths were accidental.

    But the Air Force lawyer, Lt. Col. Dean W. Korsak, believed he had witnessed possible war crimes and repeatedly pressed his leadership and Air Force criminal investigators to act. When they did not, he alerted the Defense Department’s independent inspector general. Two years after the strike, seeing no evidence that the watchdog agency was taking action, Colonel Korsak emailed the Senate Armed Services Committee, telling its staff that he had top secret material to discuss and adding, “I’m putting myself at great risk of military retaliation for sending this.”

    “Senior ranking U.S. military officials intentionally and systematically circumvented the deliberate strike process,” he wrote in the email, which was obtained by The Times. Much of the material was classified and would need to be discussed through secure communications, he said. He wrote that a unit had intentionally entered false strike log entries, “clearly seeking to cover up the incidents.” Calling the classified death toll “shockingly high,” he said the military did not follow its own requirements to report and investigate the strike.
    The United States portrayed the air war against the Islamic State as the most precise and humane bombing campaign in its history. The military said every report of civilian casualties was investigated and the findings reported publicly, creating what the military called a model of accountability.

    But the strikes on Baghuz tell a different story.

    The details suggest that while the military put strict rules in place to protect civilians, the Special Operations task force repeatedly used other rules to skirt them. The military teams counting casualties rarely had the time, resources or incentive to do accurate work. And troops rarely faced repercussions when they caused civilian deaths.
    At the end of the grinding fight, airstrikes corralled the last Islamic State fighters in a scrap of farmland against the Euphrates River near Baghuz. Coalition air power forced thousands to surrender, sparing the lives of untold numbers of Kurdish and Arab allies.

    On the ground, Task Force 9 coordinated offensives and airstrikes. The unit included soldiers from the 5th Special Forces Group and the Army’s elite commando team Delta Force, several officials said.

    Over time, some officials overseeing the air campaign began to believe that the task force was systematically circumventing the safeguards created to limit civilian deaths.

    The process was supposed to run through several checks and balances. Drones with high-definition cameras studied potential targets, sometimes for days or weeks. Analysts pored over intelligence data to differentiate combatants from civilians. And military lawyers were embedded with strike teams to ensure that targeting complied with the law of armed conflict. In combat situations, the process might take only minutes, but even then the rules required teams to identify military targets and minimize civilian harm. At times, when the task force failed to meet those requirements, commanders in Qatar and elsewhere denied permission to strike.

    But there was a quick and easy way to skip much of that oversight: claiming imminent danger.

    The law of armed conflict — the rule book that lays out the military’s legal conduct in war — allows troops in life-threatening situations to sidestep the strike team lawyers, analysts and other bureaucracy and call in strikes directly from aircraft under what military regulations call an “inherent right of self-defense.”

    Task Force 9 typically played only an advisory role in Syria, and its soldiers were usually well behind the front lines. Even so, by late 2018, about 80 percent of all airstrikes it was calling in claimed self-defense, according to an Air Force officer who reviewed the strikes.

    The rules allowed U.S. troops and local allies to invoke it when facing not just direct enemy fire, but anyone displaying “hostile intent,” according to a former officer who deployed with the unit numerous times. Under that definition, something as mundane as a car driving miles from friendly forces could in some cases be targeted. The task force interpreted the rules broadly, the former officer said.

    The aftermath of that approach was plain to see. A number of Syrian towns, including the regional capital, Raqqa, were reduced to little more than rubble. Human rights organizations reported that the coalition caused thousands of civilian deaths during the war. Hundreds of military assessment reports examined by The Times show the task force was implicated in nearly one in five coalition civilian casualty incidents in the region.
    Human rights groups were not the only ones sounding the alarm. C.I.A. officers working in Syria grew so alarmed over the task force’s strikes that agents reported their concern to the Department of Defense inspector general, which investigated the claims and produced a report. The results of that report are top secret, but the former task force officer, who reviewed the report, said the C.I.A. officers alleged that in about 10 incidents, the secretive task force hit targets knowing civilians would be killed.

    The former officer said the report determined that all the strikes were legal.

    The inspector general declined to release the report or discuss its findings.

    Staff in the operations center in Qatar, who oversaw the air war, also became concerned with task force strikes. Air Force lawyers started keeping a spreadsheet, recording the self-defense justifications the task force used to call strikes, then comparing them with drone footage and other evidence, according to one officer who viewed the data. The evidence appeared to show that the task force was adding details that would legally justify a strike, such as seeing a man with a gun, even when those details were not visible in the footage.

    Though a number of officers in the operations center suspected that the task force was including misleading information in the logs to justify strikes, they did not feel they had enough evidence to press the issue, the officer said. That changed on March 18, 2019.
    At about 10 a.m., local Syrian forces reported they were under fire and in danger of being overrun, and called for an airstrike, Central Command said. The task force drone tracked a group of fighters as they made their way through the camp to the area where the women and children sheltered.

    A 5th Special Forces Group officer in the task force looked at the drone footage and didn’t see any civilians, a task force officer said. But the drone he relied on had only a standard-definition camera. Central Command said there were no high-definition drones in the area that could get a better view of the target.

    The Special Forces officer gave the order to fire. With no precision missiles left, the command said, the ground commander called in 500- and 2,000-pound bombs. The strike log classified the strike as self-defense.

    In fact, a high-definition drone was available. The task force did not use it. Circling above, it was streaming footage of the same patch of ground to the operations center in Qatar. Because the task force operated at a high level of secrecy, two officers said, the people in Qatar watching the high-definition drone were not aware the task force was about to call in a strike.

    Central Command said the task force did not know that the better drone was overhead.

    The high-definition drone recorded a very different scene from what was described by Central Command this past week, three people who viewed the footage said. In it, two or three men — not 16 — wander through the frame near the crowd. They have rifles but do not appear to be maneuvering, engaging coalition forces or acting in a way that would seem to justify a self-defense strike with 2,000-pound bombs. A chat log used by analysts who were watching the footage noted the presence of women, children and a man with a gun, but did not mention any active combat, two people who viewed the log said.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 11-25-2021 at 01:17.
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  6. #96

    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Always interesting stuff: China intends to seize control of Uganda's only, so I hear, international airport (Entebbe) as debt collateral.
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  7. #97
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Has the tech been worth it, or effective in curtailing nuclear blackmail?

    Here's an example of what I meant.

    US rejecting EU's condemnation of anti-satellite tests by China as "too restrictive."
    Who knows whether it has been worth it for sure? However, whether the missiles are 'tactical' or 'strategic' doesn't change the technology required to intercept them. Tactical missiles have been in use since the 1980s and even the patriot missiles of the times struggled to intercept those. Seeing as ballistic missiles are the way to have a long-range strike capability in the absence of an air force that can challenge the US and Allies they are likely to continue becoming more common like with those employed by the Houthis against the Saudis.

    This website seems to track what's at least open source knowledge on US and allied BMD systems as well as potential threat missile systems:
    https://missilethreat.csis.org/country/china/

    If it were possible, assuring the neutrality of the orbital zone is arguably preferable to chasing what looks like a mirage of nuclear defense - and alternatively, a legitimate screen would necessitate a global arms race by the logic of nuclear balance.
    I would agree but that'd only be possible with the ability to verify others' compliance. Don't want a Washington Naval Treaty situation where the allied powers restricted themselves while their opponents either cheated or ignored the restrictions.
    I would say that denying ourselves the ability to shoot down an enemy spy satellite or more would be rather naive.

    What I will say for Russia is that if they ever make good on their bluff to throttle gas and oil to Europe, they will have guaranteed a very rapid subsequent phaseout of petroleum (for renewables/electricity) in the European economy.
    I think the Europeans are already going as fast as is really feasible considering technology and economic limitations. The current problem with 'green' energy is the inability to store the power. Solar works fine in the day, turbines in the wind but the inability to increase power as usage increases or store the excess limits the ability to go green. With coal being phased out and nuclear expansion frozen too that leaves petroleum power for Europe.
    Hydro and thermal power are the only large-scale alternatives currently available but those aren't universally suitable and have their own issues in implementation such as protests against new hydro dams, geothermal not to mention just available of the natural resoure too.
    Looks like Iceland and Norway of course lead the way in this, the rest of the EU is far behind though.
    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databr.../table?lang=en

    The Russians haven't had to outright cut the taps to show their power:
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/19/ener...to-europe.html
    Russia chooses not to raise natural gas supplies to Europe despite Putin’s pledge to help
    It comes shortly after Putin had suggested the country could provide additional supply to Europe at a time when millions of households are facing soaring winter energy bills.

    Speaking to CNBC’s Hadley Gamble at Russian Energy Week on Oct. 13, the Russian president also dismissed suggestions the country was using gas as a geopolitical weapon as “politically motivated blather.”

    Offer of more gas ‘conditional on Nord Stream 2’
    Russia is Europe’s largest gas supplier, providing around 43% of the European Union’s gas imports last year, according to data compiled by Eurostat.

    However, Russia’s natural gas flows to Europe have been volatile since the end of September, adding to market anxiety and skyrocketing prices.
    Always interesting stuff: China intends to seize control of Uganda's only, so I hear, international airport (Entebbe) as debt collateral.
    Been interesting reading a little about it. Seems they haven't seized control yet but will use the leverage to secure strong friendly terms. Certainly would be called neo-colonialism if done by anyone else.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
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    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  8. #98
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Always interesting stuff: China intends to seize control of Uganda's only, so I hear, international airport (Entebbe) as debt collateral.
    Bastards!

    Oh, when is the USA giving back Guantanamo Bay? Stopping sanctions against Iran for getting upset at a Revolution against the puppet they put in place?

    Powerful countries exert their power on the less powerful. It doesn't make it right but it is interesting how we have normalised what the West does and demonized the CCP for basically doing the same.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  9. #99
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Oh, when is the USA giving back Guantanamo Bay? Stopping sanctions against Iran for getting upset at a Revolution against the puppet they put in place?
    Kinda funny with G-Bay as the US still sends Cuba the lease payment every year and Cuba just doesn't cash it. On the serious side though, was hoping that the thaw in relations under Obama would have led to future negotiations about the Naval Base.
    The sanctions though had more to do with the Iranians taking Americans hostage.

    Powerful countries exert their power on the less powerful. It doesn't make it right but it is interesting how we have normalized what the West does and demonized the CCP for basically doing the same.
    Well in all fairness though, the West has in general become much more 'tame' as time has gone on in how it exerts its influence, especially Europe. The mega corporations certainly throw their weight around but the days of invading to take back the Suez, or letting 'Trade Companies' be essentially exploitative nation states with government X protection are long gone. China turning the clock back on how the powerful get to throw their weight around is what's being decried.

    When's the last time the US or one of its allies took possession of some debtor nation's key infrastructure in lieu of payment?

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
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    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  10. #100
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    Kinda funny with G-Bay as the US still sends Cuba the lease payment every year and Cuba just doesn't cash it. On the serious side though, was hoping that the thaw in relations under Obama would have led to future negotiations about the Naval Base.
    The sanctions though had more to do with the Iranians taking Americans hostage.


    Well in all fairness though, the West has in general become much more 'tame' as time has gone on in how it exerts its influence, especially Europe. The mega corporations certainly throw their weight around but the days of invading to take back the Suez, or letting 'Trade Companies' be essentially exploitative nation states with government X protection are long gone. China turning the clock back on how the powerful get to throw their weight around is what's being decried.

    When's the last time the US or one of its allies took possession of some debtor nation's key infrastructure in lieu of payment?
    Guantanamo bay is illegally occupied. Cuba has said to leave for years and the USA just doesn't. Just as they've been doing it for decades doesn't make it any better.

    Tame? The West just invades those they don't like, such as Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan; fire cruise missiles into Syria for the hell of it; assassinate people in Pakistan and the whole illegal rendition to torture people in black sites wasn't that long ago; we also freeze the overseas assets of other countries - much easier to seize assets they've given us to look after. Not to mention giving weapons to allies at a discount to kill those we don't like.

    The West also pretends to hold itself to higher standards.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  11. #101
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Fair point, got nothing.

    Edit: For the sake of argument, I'll reply though for the most part I agree with the overall sentiment that rory posted. The West does a lot of saying one thing and doing another. I do disagree that we call out Russia and China for doing the same things we do. Our goals and methods are very different and that's really the difference in what I'd call any 'moral high ground.' The strong always can throw their weight around but might doesn't make right. The West does try to own up to its faults and change when possible.

    Guantanamo Bay is illegally occupied. Cuba has said to leave for years and the USA just doesn't. Just as they've been doing it for decades doesn't make it any better.
    It certainly is now but right after the Cuban revolution it wasn't exactly clear that the new regime would last, especially with the US hosting the former regime members as well as plotting the return of the old regime ie: Bay of Pigs. Cuba was a major exporter of revolution and violence up to the mid-90s in South America and Africa and it does make sense that the US wouldn't just hand back a base to a hostile government that it has no diplomatic ties with. Then considering that the US didn't really recognize Cuba until Obama it kinda makes it difficult to resolve long standing issues. It's one of the problems of international diplomacy, at what point is a new government a legal one. There's lots of qausi-states that aren't recognized like South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria, Northern Cyprus, and so on. Now that diplomatic ties are somewhat normalized a whay forward can commence.

    The US closed its bases in France when asked under de Gaul, the US left Iraq when Maliki and Obama didn't want to renew a Status of Forces Agreement, when the Philippines wanted Subic Naval Base and Clark Air Force Base returned the US did so. Major point I'm making is that the US will leave when asked by governments it recognizes. That Castro family together with US antagonism since the Cold War made that impossible for a long time. That's why since the Obama return of diplomatic relations a return of the Naval Base could actually happen now that we are dealing with a government, we don't need a third party to talk to.

    Tame? The West just invades those they don't like, such as Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan; fire cruise missiles into Syria for the hell of it;
    Zero argument that the West uses force but I'll caveat that with it doesn't just invade everyone it doesn't like. In Libya it intervened in a Civil War on behalf of the rebels and then failed to actually try and prop them up leading to the terminal chaos of the present.
    Iraq there's zero excuse. The reasons for the invasion ended up false and there was zero exit strategy. However, the US did leave when Maliki stood his ground and then the US came back when asked to help with ISIS.
    Afghanistan I've debated here enough in the other thread, the US was responding to 9/11, the Taliban offer was not a serious one. The US didn't invade for shits and giggles or just because the Taliban were bad, hell the US was working oil pipeline deals with the Taliban in the years just prior to 9/11.
    Syrian cruise missiles; well there's no real legal justification for it. There's an ongoing civil war, the US half heartedly backed the losing side. Majority of US operations in Syria were anti-ISIS together with the Kurds. The situation in Syria though is far more complicated than just the West creating chaos.
    assassinate people in Pakistan and the whole illegal rendition to torture people in black sites wasn't that long ago;
    Besides the raid to kill Bin Laden there's nothing really defensible about the US actions above. Especially in regard to the toleration of torture under Bush Jr. The actions in Gitmo, Abu Graib, and the CIA black sites are stains on the US that have hurt our interests and reputation far more than any intel gained could be worth.

    we also freeze the overseas assets of other countries - much easier to seize assets they've given us to look after.
    Generally, there are justifiable reasons to do so. When governments change and the new one is hostile to the powers that control the banks it makes little sense to hand them cash. In the long run though if diplomatic relations are restored then those assets can be released. It's not like those funds just go into our own piggy banks for our own reasons.
    The $400 million that Obama gave to Iran was the money owed for halting the weapons programs that the Shah had paid for as a good example. Same with the Taliban in Afghanistan, they may be the de facto government but that doesn't automatically entitle them to all the aid programs and cash support given to the previous government.

    Biggest thing I mean for the term 'tame' though is that the West certainly doesn't invade for keeps anymore. It's a bit different than Russia taking and annexing Crimea or the Chinese building islands and then claiming their territory is actually larger than it is.
    The Japanese still claim the Kuril Islands and have territorial disputes with China and South Korea. The Russians still hold Prussia, the Chinese have Tibet and claim far more. The fact that Russia and China are using force to resolve these issues is what I referred to as the clock turning back.

    Not to mention giving weapons to allies at a discount to kill those we don't like.
    Well yeah, that's always been the way the world works.

    The West also pretends to hold itself to higher standards.
    I'd say the West tries to hold itself to a higher standard though does fail quite often. Admitting fault and culpability doesn't bring back the dead but does allow the West to move forward. There's no shortage of coverups but it's not quite the thought police/social credit score of China that try to pretend that Tiananmen Square never happened and arrest anyone that does. Our athletes don't disappear for weeks to attend 'reeducation' if they bring up scandals against the elites. Western political elites may use corruption to hold onto power but they don't tend to poison their political rivals.
    Our previous president fomented an insurrection to subvert the democratic process and is still given his legal rights and due process as are his cronies.

    At the end of the day are you able to criticize your country and not suffer repercussions? Can you call out the faults of your country without going to jail (not thinking Snowden type intel dumps to journalists instead of whistleblower)? Could you expect the same safety to do the same if you were a citizen and resident of one of our competitors? Do you think the West does try to minimize civilian casualties in war and is more open than its rivals when it does occur? Doesn't make it better when it happens but it's certainly a sign of trying to hold to a higher standard.
    Last edited by spmetla; 12-01-2021 at 00:37.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

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  12. #102
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    EU launches €300bn bid to challenge Chinese influence
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59473071
    The EU has revealed details of a €300bn (£255bn; $340bn) global investment plan, described as a "true alternative" to China's Belt and Road strategy.

    European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said the Global Gateway scheme should become a trusted brand.

    China has funded rail, roads and ports but has been accused of leaving some countries saddled with debt.

    The Commission chief said countries need "trusted partners" to design projects that were sustainable.

    The EU is looking at how it can leverage billions of euros, drawn from member states, financial institutions and the private sector. This will largely take the form of guarantees or loans, rather than grants.

    Mrs von der Leyen said the EU wanted to show that a different, democratic approach could deliver on projects that focused on tackling climate change as well as global health security and sustainable development for developing countries.

    Projects had to be of high quality, with a high level of transparency and good governance, and had to deliver tangible results for the countries involved, she explained. One EU official told the BBC that Africa would be a major focus of the scheme.

    China's strategy has reached into Africa, Asia, the Indo-Pacific and the EU too. China's Cosco company owns two-thirds of the huge Greek container port at Piraeus and the China Road and Bridge Corporation has built a key bridge in Croatia.
    "When it comes to investment choices," said the Commission president, "the few options that exist too often come with a lot of small print which includes big consequences, be it financially, politically but also socially."

    Andrew Small, a Senior Transatlantic Fellow at the German Marshall Fund, told the BBC it marked "the first serious effort from the European side to put packages together and figure out financing mechanisms, so countries considering taking loans from China have an alternative option".

    China: Big spender or loan shark?
    MI6 boss warns of China 'debt traps and data traps'
    'We don't like our land being given away to China'
    At a briefing last month, China's ambassador to the EU, Zhang Ming, said Beijing welcomed the EU's Global Gateway strategy if it was open and could "help developing countries". But he also warned "any attempt to turn infrastructure projects into a geopolitical tool would fail the expectation of the international community and harm one's own interests".

    Belt and Road has been a centre-piece of Chinese foreign policy.

    While it has developed trade links by ploughing money into new roads, ports, railways and bridges, it has also been criticised as a means of providing "predatory loans" in what is labelled "debt-trap diplomacy".

    But there are also those who argue the picture is more complicated, and that borrowing large sums of money is hardly risk-free. Moreover, China met a need others did not.

    Either way, China's economic and geopolitical footprint has grown as tensions rise with the West.
    The question is whether the EU can really act in this geopolitical space, says Andrew Small.

    "Or is it too rigid, too bogged down by internal bureaucratic fighting? If they fail at this, it's a big miss," he argues.

    One diplomat told me: "It's a good sign that finally Europe is asserting its influence in this area.

    "That's a common interest we share with our transatlantic friends in the US and UK."

    But a common interest could also create more competition, according to Scott Morris, a Senior Fellow at the Center for Global Development.

    After all, the US has its own "Build Back Better World" initiative launched at the G7 last June. "This is a noisy space with a lot of brands bumping into each other," says Mr Morris.

    However he's "hopeful" of success for the Global Gateway initiative. He says, "more importantly" than rivalling China, it's a chance for Europe to "achieve a scale of financing that can do some good in developing countries that need some capital".

    The EU has pointedly emphasised its "values-based" and "transparent" approach, arguing it wants to create links not dependencies.

    But this is also about influence, as the Commission continues to look for ways to flex its muscles on the geopolitical stage and, in turn, find out how strong those muscles are.
    Certainly, a positive development. I'm glad to see the EU try and build up its soft power through competitive investment abroad. The limitations due to regime type, human rights records, and so on will certainly mean that the EU or the US's B3W plans won't affect Chinese influence in states that are too politically 'toxic' for the west to invest in. However, this will be good to 'reward' countries that share our values and encourage investment without the dangers that Chinese investment brings.

    The EU will certainly face hurdles like what to do when payments default, how to ensure the money goes towards the intended projects instead of just lining the pockets of middlemen up and down the chain in the EU and the invested country, as well as contracting the right construction firms etc... that can build on time and to standard.

    "Global Gateway" is at least a positive sign of investment that may result in competition for influence and investment that hopefully benefits the receiving countries.
    Perhaps it can help make up for the shortfall in funding for climate change to those affected 'southern countries' that COP didn't adequately address.
    Last edited by spmetla; 12-01-2021 at 19:44.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

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  13. #103

    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Bastards!

    Oh, when is the USA giving back Guantanamo Bay? Stopping sanctions against Iran for getting upset at a Revolution against the puppet they put in place?

    Powerful countries exert their power on the less powerful. It doesn't make it right but it is interesting how we have normalised what the West does and demonized the CCP for basically doing the same.

    Since when did we support the illegal sanctions against Iran, or the 60-year vendetta against Cuba, here?

    Of course the Castro government has always rejected our terms, making our rent payments an amusing fig leaf (I wish I could do that for an apartment of my choice). What we can say about it in our defense is that the small piece of land we hold is not economiclly valuable or a hindrance to Cuban governance, unlike what China's move would imply for Uganda, so we're on firmer territory there. The diplomatic repression of Cuba is a much bigger deal.

    I wouldn't be entirely surprised if in coming decades China resolves issues of non-compliance with loan terms by collecting on the debt through military force and occupation, as the United States used to do extremely often in Latin America from the 1890s through the 1920s.

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    It certainly is now but right after the Cuban revolution it wasn't exactly clear that the new regime would last, especially with the US hosting the former regime members as well as plotting the return of the old regime ie: Bay of Pigs. Cuba was a major exporter of revolution and violence up to the mid-90s in South America and Africa and it does make sense that the US wouldn't just hand back a base to a hostile government that it has no diplomatic ties with. Then considering that the US didn't really recognize Cuba until Obama it kinda makes it difficult to resolve long standing issues. It's one of the problems of international diplomacy, at what point is a new government a legal one. There's lots of qausi-states that aren't recognized like South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria, Northern Cyprus, and so on. Now that diplomatic ties are somewhat normalized a whay forward can commence.
    It's been 60 years. As Trump up and decided to recognize Jerusalem as the Israeli capital, any government could hand over Guantanamo in a matter of weeks.

    It's just not a priority for political reasons. Rory, remember when Obama tried to liquidate the internment center at Guantanamo as he had campaigned on? It was one of the first things he tried as president. Very quickly he dropped the issue and moved to focus on completing the recession stimulus package and launching negotiations on his landmark ACA insurance reform. This was for the barest political and really utilitarian reasons: the mainstream media, and the US Congress almost in unanimity - including the majority of his own party - denounced him vehemently over the issue.

    So there's a right thing to do, and it's mechanically-simple, but who wants to deal with it, eh? Liquidating Guantanamo partially resolves an injustice to a few dozen people (most of whom would still be imprisoned elsewhere), whereas the stimulus and the ACA helped hundreds of millions and saved lives.

    You would need a president with Biden's guts and disregard for baked-in criticism on foreign policy, to do what he did in telling all the typical miscreants to off over Afghanistan. Not Biden himself, of course, he's blown his wad for the term and paid his price...

    Speaking of Biden, early days, but he does appear serious about bringing our drone programs under strict control.





    Our previous president fomented an insurrection to subvert the democratic process and is still given his legal rights and due process as are his cronies.
    I'm sure you mean "dude process."

    At the end of the day are you able to criticize your country and not suffer repercussions? Can you call out the faults of your country without going to jail (not thinking Snowden type intel dumps to journalists instead of whistleblower)? Could you expect the same safety to do the same if you were a citizen and resident of one of our competitors? Do you think the West does try to minimize civilian casualties in war and is more open than its rivals when it does occur? Doesn't make it better when it happens but it's certainly a sign of trying to hold to a higher standard.
    Whatever you think should happen to Snowden, it can't be denied that he did the right and productive thing for us.

    I just posted about our relationship with civilian casualties last month, and once or twice in the summer...

    It's great that we have a formal legal process and standard to conform to, it's just that, as in so many domains that operate under the direction of 'armed G-men', there are a lot of people dedicated to submerging and defeating mechanisms of accountability, and no one ever challenges them for it. Beating those people, wherever they are to be found, once and for all, would be the West - namely America - living up to its ideals...

    While it has developed trade links by ploughing money into new roads, ports, railways and bridges, it has also been criticised as a means of providing "predatory loans" in what is labelled "debt-trap diplomacy".

    But there are also those who argue the picture is more complicated, and that borrowing large sums of money is hardly risk-free. Moreover, China met a need others did not.
    Notably, the core tenet of the investment philosophy I delved into earlier is that rich countries can stand to take on vastly more (short-term) risk when it comes to poor countries, rather than offloading the risk as per tradition. Enlightened, and ultimately self-interested*, altruism, is the only plausible value proposition that can decisively displace China's. And we want to displace China's model not for the petty reason of getting one over them in the Great Game, but because China's model is exploitative and ultimately unproductive for humanity. What's most important is the enduring preservation of the species; all the rest is whistling past the gravedigger.

    *In terms of the national collective selves

    But a common interest could also create more competition, according to Scott Morris, a Senior Fellow at the Center for Global Development.

    After all, the US has its own "Build Back Better World" initiative launched at the G7 last June. "This is a noisy space with a lot of brands bumping into each other," says Mr Morris.
    Thus my insistence on transnational consolidation of these efforts. Does anyone have a problem with the US reifying the EU's promises?
    Vitiate Man.

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  14. #104
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Legality at a Supranational level is always difficult since... whose laws? And of course the UN is never allowed to bite the important permanent members.

    The USA isn't prepared to deal with Guantanamo prison for internal political reasons. Completely understandable and instantly we're closer to Realpolitik than any pretence at the "right" thing.

    Barring a Marketing campaign that seems to have kicked off after WW2 that has just continued with these childishly simplistic approaches to right and wrong, yes it was ever thus - countries looking after the interests of their countries and by that I mean the rich and powerful in their countries.

    A more adult approach would enable nuance and self-reflection. The USA hasn't either got to be "good" or "bad" and is somewhere in the middle so accepting things aren't perfect isn't an admission that everything is wrong. Problems can't all be rectified with external intervention and solutions are often zero-sum (unless one decides to undertake genocide, of course); the UK / France and other Imperial powers created country lines to suit themselves and the leaders since then have been far more concerned with power, money and the ability to blame the events which in some cases were 100 years ago than bothering to sort out the mess.

    China is giving loads of money with few if any strings attached, bar be good to China. The EU is going to do the usual with vast amounts of rules to follow and I imagine many countries are going to go with China since it is easier to steal.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  15. #105

    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Question worth exploring: how is the Vietnamese Communist Party reacting, practically and philosophically, to the CCP's/China's retrenchment?
    Vitiate Man.

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  16. #106
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Question worth exploring: how is the Vietnamese Communist Party reacting, practically and philosophically, to the CCP's/China's retrenchment?
    Can't imagine they'd be too pleased. Vietnam has fought a war against China more recently than it's fought a war against the US.

  17. #107
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Russia Ukraine: Sending US troops not on table - Biden
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59582013
    US President Joe Biden has said that putting American troops on the ground in Ukraine in the event of a Russian invasion is "not on the table".

    But Mr Biden warned of severe consequences if Russia did invade.

    He was speaking a day after two hours of talks by video link with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

    The virtual summit was aimed at reducing tensions in the region after a major Russian troop build-up along Ukraine's eastern border.

    Russia has accused Ukraine of provocation, and sought guarantees against eastward Nato expansion and deployment of weapons close to Russia.

    Ukrainian authorities have said Moscow could be planning a military offensive at the end of January, although US officials say it is not yet clear whether President Putin has made a decision.

    Speaking on Wednesday, Mr Putin refused to say whether he would order troops into Ukraine. But he said he could not sit back while the military alliance moved close to Russia.

    Mr Biden said he had made it clear to Mr Putin during Tuesday's meeting that there would be "economic consequences like none he's ever seen".

    He was confident that the Russian leader got the message, he added.
    But when asked about possible military action, Mr Biden said the US's moral and legal obligations to its Nato allies in the region did not extend to Ukraine, who is not a member of the 30-member organisation.

    "The idea that the US is going to unilaterally use force to confront Russia invading Ukraine is not on the cards right now," he said.

    The US president said he hoped high-level meetings with Russia and at least four major Nato allies to discuss Russia's concerns would be announced by Friday.
    The US has not specified what economic consequences it has in mind, but on Tuesday National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said Nord Stream 2 - a new gas pipeline from Russia to Germany bypassing Ukraine which is not yet in operation - provided "leverage" for the US and its allies.

    Other possible measures include restrictions on Russia's banks converting roubles into foreign currencies, or even disconnecting Russia from the Swift global financial payment system, reports say.
    Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky said that, while Tuesday's talks brought "no sensations", he was grateful for President Biden's "unwavering support".

    More than 90,000 Russian troops are believed to be massed near Ukraine's borders. The movement has strained already tense relations between Russia and the US.

    A large part of the recent Russian military build-up is in Crimea, a Black Sea peninsula which Russia seized from Ukraine and then annexed in 2014.

    Troops are also gathering near Ukraine's eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, parts of which are under the control of Russian-backed separatists.

    More than 14,000 people have lost their lives in seven years of conflict since Russian-backed forces seized large areas of Ukraine's east.
    Mixed feelings on the lack of US troops as an option. I personally don't think that economic sanctions short of the getting EU/NATO countries to stop buying Russian gas products will deter Putin. On the other hand, the US forces in Europe are no where near capable of countering or deterring Russia. There's a lot of capability but no longer a full armored division in Germany like there was prior to 2014 so with the current forces available the US wouldn't be able to change the outcome between a full war between Ukraine and Russia without getting the days/weeks to build up air/ground power on the continent first, by which point the war's outcome would probably be decided.
    The NATO allies in Europe also don't have anywhere near the capability to deter anything either. The amount of troops Russia has on the border alone is larger than the entire army of Germany, France, or the UK separately.
    I just hope the behind the scenes threats are enough of a deterrence. Not sure if Putin will actually do anything though as merely deterring Ukraine from joining NATO would be geo-political win and deter the same from happening to Georgia, Sweden, or Finland (all unlikely NATO allies but potential anyhow). Still think this is more bluff than anything but Putin is certainly not a man afraid of conflict as he seems to get stronger from it domestically despite any repercussions to Russia as a whole.

    Can't imagine they'd be too pleased. Vietnam has fought a war against China more recently than it's fought a war against the US.
    I imagine on a philosophical view in terms of communism they're likely pleased as it would limit domestic aspirations for more liberalization in Vietnam too. They've never though viewed themselves as subservient to the PRC, they were happy for the help against the French and the US but that was all out of convenience in a war that was more nationalist than really idealism.
    On the whole though relations between Vietnam and China will remain frosty. China's revanchism and broad territorial claims are a direct threat to Vietnam's economic areas off its coast as well as the north of the country which was ruled by the Qing Dynasty until the 1880s when the French took it away.
    Vietnam has always had closer ties to Russia than China since the fall of Saigon and has understandably courted the US a bit to balance against China since the fall of the USSR.
    Last edited by spmetla; 12-09-2021 at 01:56.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  18. #108
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    i feel that this essay on taiwan has relevenace to the 'non-alliance' solution to ukraine:

    https://www.nationalreview.com/magaz...efend-taiwan/#
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  19. #109

    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    The US trying to bluff and bluster over Ukraine would be counterproductive; I doubt many foreign policy people throughout Europe believed that Biden would launch WW3 over Ukraine prior to his announcement.

    If Russia did invade, the US and EU would however be justified in taking all covert and overt non-military measures to destabilize the Russian state and overthrow the Putin government. Our orientation in such an event: make the cost of war too painful for Putin to bear, or make the cost of Putin remaining in power too painful for Russia's oligarchs/people to bear. Though the latter may be complicated if it turns out that Putin finds a lot of elite support for invading (I don't know if this is or will be the case).

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Can't imagine they'd be too pleased. Vietnam has fought a war against China more recently than it's fought a war against the US.
    But how does it affect their view on domestic governance? Are Xi's methods influential, or do they see it as a path to avoid? The existing disposition as adequate? Are there any internal controversies?

    I wish I knew a Vietnam expert on Twitter or something.
    Vitiate Man.

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  20. #110
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Russia Lays Out Demands for a Sweeping New Security Deal With NATO
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/17/w...rity-deal.html
    The proposal, coming as Moscow masses troops on the border with Ukraine, would establish a Cold War-like security arrangement in Eastern Europe that NATO officials immediately rejected.
    KYIV, Ukraine — Russia demanded on Friday that the United States and its allies halt all military activity in Eastern Europe and Central Asia in a sweeping proposal that would establish a Cold War-like security arrangement, posing a challenge to diplomatic efforts to defuse Russia’s growing military threat to Ukraine.

    The Russian proposal — immediately dismissed by NATO officials — came in the form of a draft treaty suggesting NATO should offer written guarantees that it would not expand farther east toward Russia and halt all military activities in the former Soviet republics, a vast swath of now-independent states extending from Eastern Europe to Central Asia.

    The proposals codified a series of demands floated in various forms in recent weeks by Russian officials, including by President Vladimir V. Putin in a video call with President Biden. They represent in startling clarity goals long sought by Mr. Putin, who analysts say is growing increasingly concerned that Ukraine is drifting irretrievably into a Western orbit, posing a grave threat to Russian security.

    The demands also reinforced the notion that Mr. Putin seemed willing to take ever-greater risks to force the West to take Russian security concerns seriously and to address historical grievances largely ignored for decades.

    Russia’s deputy foreign minister, Sergei A. Ryabkov, laid out details about the proposal in public for the first time on Friday in a video news conference in Moscow, amid a Russian troop buildup near Ukraine’s border that Western officials have interpreted as a threat of an invasion.

    The demands went far beyond the current conflict between Ukrainian government forces and Russia-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine. And most were directed not at Ukraine, which is threatened by the troop buildup, but at the United States and Ukraine’s other Western allies.

    They included a request for a NATO commitment that it would not offer membership to Ukraine specifically. But NATO officials emphasized that NATO countries will not rule out future membership for any Eastern European countries, including Ukraine.

    The proposal highlighted starkly differing views in the United States and Russia on the military tensions over Ukraine. Russia has insisted that the West has been fomenting the crisis by instilling anti-Russia sentiment in Ukraine, and by providing weapons. Mr. Ryabkov cast the confrontation in Ukraine as a critical threat to Russia’s security.

    The United States and European allies, in contrast, say Russia provoked the security crisis by recently deploying tens of thousands of troops near Ukraine’s border.

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    NATO officials said on Friday that Russia’s proposals were unacceptable in their demands for veto power over now-independent countries. They emphasized their openness to a diplomatic dialogue on Russia’s security concerns, but said that any discussion would also include NATO’s security concerns about Russian missile deployments, satellite tests and disinformation efforts.

    The officials also suggested that if Russia did make a major new military incursion into Ukraine, as it seems to be planning, NATO would strongly consider moving more troops into allied countries bordering Ukraine, like Poland and the Baltic countries, because the “strategic depth” against Russia that Ukraine now provides would be damaged or lost.

    Jake Sullivan, President Biden’s national security adviser, said in Washington on Friday that while the Russians had a list of security concerns, so did the United States and its European allies, and that Washington was willing to negotiate on that basis.

    “We’ve had a dialogue with Russia on European security issues for the last 20 years,” Mr. Sullivan told an audience at the Council on Foreign Relations. “We had it with the Soviet Union for decades before that.”

    That process “has sometimes produced progress, sometimes produced deadlock,” he said, noting that the United States planned “to put on the table our concern with Russian activities that we believe harm our interests and values.”

    “It’s very difficult to see agreements getting consummated,” he added, “if we’re continuing to see an escalatory cycle.”

    He declined to say if the United States was willing to provide Ukraine with more powerful defensive weapons, saying a $450 million arms and security package is already in place. He said the pipeline was already so full there is a question of “absorptive capacity.”

    The Russian proposal took the form of two draft treaties, one with NATO and the other with the United States.

    “Member states of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization accept the obligation to exclude farther expansion of NATO to Ukraine and other states,” the text suggested. In demanding the written guarantee from NATO, Mr. Putin and other Russian officials have reached into early post-Cold War history, describing what they see as a betrayal by the West in 1990.
    They assert that NATO expanded to the east despite a spoken assurance from James Baker, then the secretary of state, to the Soviet leader, Mikhail S. Gorbachev, that it would not.

    The agreement was never put in writing and Mr. Baker said later that Russian officials misinterpreted his comment, which applied only to the territory of the former East Germany. Mr. Gorbachev has, in interviews, confirmed that spoken assurance came in discussions only of East Germany.

    The new Russian proposal surfaced other historical grievances.

    It demanded that NATO withdraw military infrastructure placed in Eastern European states after 1997, the date of an accord signed between Russia and NATO that Moscow wants now as a starting point for a new security treaty.

    The Russian Foreign Ministry had earlier demanded that NATO officially abrogate a 2008 promise, known as the Bucharest Declaration, that Ukraine and Georgia would be welcomed into the alliance. The NATO chief invoked that declaration after the meeting with Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, on Thursday, saying the offer still stands.

    Russia is also insisting that NATO countries do not deploy offensive weapons in states neighboring Russia, including countries not in the alliance — a reference to Ukraine. And the proposal suggested a ban on military exercises at strengths of more than a brigade in a zone along both sides of Russia’s western border, an issue that would address the current military buildup near Ukraine.

    Analysts expressed concerns about the Russian demands, saying they appeared to set up any talks between Russia and the West on these “security guarantees” for failure, possibly paving the way for a war in Ukraine.
    But they might also represent an opening position, with Russia willing to later compromise in talks. That the demands were put forth by the deputy foreign minister, Mr. Ryabkov, and not by his boss, Sergey V. Lavrov, or by Mr. Putin himself, left wiggle room, analysts said.

    “There is a lot of shadow boxing going on, on all sides, and it’s not clear how this ends,” said Samuel Greene, a professor of Russian politics at King’s College in London. “This whole situation is ambiguous by design.”

    Analysts pointed out that Mr. Putin had tried to extract similar concessions from President Trump but failed.

    Mr. Greene said Russia may now see an opening to renegotiate the post-Soviet security landscape while Ukraine is still weak but likely to become stronger, Western nations are distracted by the pandemic and other problems and the U.S. is more concerned with the Chinese threat to Taiwan.

    Putting forward impossible demands was intended to complicate diplomacy over the Russian buildup on the Ukrainian border, said Samuel Charap, a Russian security analyst at the RAND Corporation. “Diplomacy requires compromise and flexibility,” he said. “It usually entails avoiding public ultimatums. Basically, this is not diplomacy. It’s the opposite of diplomacy.”

    Mr. Ryabkov, the Russian diplomat, said Moscow was open to “reasonable” compromises. But he also suggested the Kremlin has assessed the United States’ power as waning and that a new accord is justified.

    Analysts say that negotiating such wide-ranging new security accommodations would most likely take many months, if they can be accomplished at all. Mr. Putin may have to decide at an earlier moment whether to go ahead with an invasion because the troops garrisoned now at temporary sites near the Ukrainian border cannot remain there indefinitely.

    Ukrainian officials have suggested that the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan in August helped precipitate the crisis by signaling waning American resolve for overseas commitments, which emboldened the Kremlin.

    The Biden administration has vowed to remain engaged in the international arena and said it intended to repair relationships strained under President Trump. American officials have consistently said they are committed to supporting Ukrainian sovereignty.

    Mr. Putin has come close to openly acknowledging that he is using military force to coerce the West to negotiate, though his spokesman has denied this. Mr. Putin has said Western countries were realizing Russia was serious about defending “red lines” related to NATO forces near its borders.

    “Our recent warnings have indeed been heard and are having a certain effect,” he told a gathering of Russian diplomats in November. “Tensions have risen.”
    A fairly bold and clearly unacceptable proposal by the Russians. While I too think NATO expansion has gone too fast and that the Russians do have a right to be concerned about NATO expansion, I don't think they should hold any veto power on membership to an alliance formed to protected itself from Russia/USSR.

    It is ludicrous how the Russians claim the buildup is to protect themselves from Ukrainian aggression which is certainly a laughable reverse of the situation.

    I'm happy that there are negotiations ongoing but assume this is just a way to divide the rest too as even engaging in talks that start with a baseline demand such as not doing the Baltic air policing for our NATO allies there is sure to anger the former-warsaw NATO members, while the bigger Western European countries prefer more of the status quo so as not to upset the supply of gas and further postpone needed military reforms/modernizations.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  21. #111
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    This is classic willpower haggling crap. Like NATO is going to halt already extant military and training relationships with Estonia, Uzbekistan, etc. This is 'leave ukraine and belarus to us' so they ask for the moon to get us to settle for what they wanted in the first place.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  22. #112
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    This is classic willpower haggling crap. Like NATO is going to halt already extant military and training relationships with Estonia, Uzbekistan, etc. This is 'leave ukraine and belarus to us' so they ask for the moon to get us to settle for what they wanted in the first place.
    Sometimes if you start by asking for what you expect to be rejected, you may just get it accepted.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QzPjHsRsn4

  23. #113
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Sometimes if you start by asking for what you expect to be rejected, you may just get it accepted.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QzPjHsRsn4
    Pan'

    I teach conflict management. I see NOTHING wrong with a clear declaration of what you seek and how it meets your needs moving forward to open the discussion especially when coupled with a willingness by the other party to share same -- integrative bargaining at its finest. That is NOT what Putin is about in this.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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  24. #114
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Pan'

    I teach conflict management. I see NOTHING wrong with a clear declaration of what you seek and how it meets your needs moving forward to open the discussion especially when coupled with a willingness by the other party to share same -- integrative bargaining at its finest. That is NOT what Putin is about in this.
    I wasn't being serious. I just think of that skit whenever I read of starting with what you expect to be rejected. Let's face it, once you've seen that and know it was meant to be rejected, it's hard to forget it.

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  25. #115
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    On the subject of Great Power contentions - i continue to be bemused by Germany's self-deception that Foreign Policy no longer matters:

    In a cold winter when european energy prices are sky high, at the moment where russia as the principal energy supplier is threatening to invade a neighbour... Germany continues supporting Pipelines that isolate neighbours who Russia seeks to coerce, and blithley sets about decommissioning the last of its nuclear reactors:
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1473967215657562112

    As china commissions a european-navy's worth of naval tonnage every year with the looming insistence of eventual re-unification with Taiwan, Lithuania boldly bucks the trend in offering some support for Taiwan, and German Chamber of Commerce group threatens future investment unless Lithuania winds its neck in:
    https://twitter.com/noahbarkin/statu...39233052659718

    We have our differences with France, but they do understand power and the impact of decisions of this type. What infuriates me is the wilful ignorance of Germany in pretending none of this really exists, and their decisions are created a morally certain vacuum. No external factors apply!
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  26. #116

    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    I mentioned above how I discovered that Merkel was one of the most pro-Orban leaders in the EU...

    If you think about it, every foreign policy action Germany has taken since 2008 pretty conclusively demonstrates that the only, or overriding, German foreign policy priority among the ruling class is to ensure the immediate stability of operating environment for German business interests. This applies to German manufacturing in Hungary, German debt holdings in Greece, German petroleum from Russia, and German trade with China. You're just mad they have different foreign policy priorities than you do (though here we are aligned).

    Germany is one of the most anti-nuclear countries in the world though - as in near-unanimity among the population - and the phaseout has been planned since the 1990s. Hell, the German Volk are more anti-nuclear than they were anti-Semitic!
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  27. #117
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Remove all nuclear power and eradicate the use of fossil fuels.

    Surely renewables will magically fill the power gap because that is what we want.

    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  28. #118

    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Remove all nuclear power and eradicate the use of fossil fuels.

    Surely renewables will magically fill the power gap because that is what we want.

    Any sufficiently-advanced investment is indistinguishable from magic.

    Chris Hamilton, president of the West Virginia Coal Association, said he had conveyed to Mr. Manchin that the clean energy tax credits would be a death knell for the state’s coal industry. Even though the clean electricity standard was stripped from the bill, Mr. Hamilton said the coal industry still saw the tax incentives as a threat to the state.

    “The credits that were in the bill would have resulted in an almost total displacement of coal generation within a relatively short period of time,” Mr. Hamilton said. “Those provisions were more onerous and more likely to displace coal-fired generation than the clean energy standard,” he said.
    Anyone seen Don't Look Up?
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  29. #119
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    Kazakhstan unrest: Government calls for Russian help
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-59880166

    Russian-led military troops will be deployed to help "stabilise" Kazakhstan amid anti-government demonstrations.

    President Kassym-Jomart Tokayev called for support from the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) as nationwide unrest escalates.

    The protests were first sparked by rising fuel prices, but have broadened to include other political grievances.

    President Tokayev claimed the unrest was the work of foreign-trained "terrorist gangs".

    However, Kate Mallinson, an expert on Central Asia at the foreign affairs think tank Chatham House in London, said the protests are "symptomatic of very deep-seated and simmering anger and resentment at the failure of the Kazhak government to modernise their country and introduce reforms that impact people at all levels".

    The president has imposed a nationwide state of emergency that includes an overnight curfew and a ban on mass gatherings and has vowed a tough response to the protests.

    In a televised speech in the early hours of Thursday, he said he had sought help from the CSTO - a military alliance made up of Russia and five ex-Soviet states to help stabilise the country.

    Later on Wednesday the CSTO's chairman, Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan, confirmed in a statement on Facebook that the alliance would send peacekeeping forces "for a limited period of time".

    The US State Department said it is "closely following" the situation in Kazakhstan, with a spokesman urging restraint by authorities and protesters alike.

    BACKGROUND: Kazakhstan country profile
    CONTEXT: Rare protests in a country that bans dissent
    President Tokayev is only the second person to lead Kazakhstan since it declared independence in 1991. His election, in 2019, was condemned by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) as showing scant respect for democratic standards.

    Much of the anger on the streets, however, seems to have been aimed at his predecessor, Nursultan Nazarbayev, who has held a powerful national security role since stepping down. On Wednesday, he was fired in a bid to subdue the growing unrest.

    Protesters had been heard chanting Mr Nazarbayev's name, while a video showing people attempting to pull down a giant bronze statue of the former leader has been shared online. According to BBC Monitoring, the now-dismantled monument appears to have stood in Taldykorgan, Mr Nazarbayev's home region.

    Staff at Kazakhstan's main airport had to flee anti-government demonstrators, who have also targeted government buildings.

    Protesters gathered at the mayor's office in Almaty before eventually storming it. Videos on social media showed a plume of smoke rising from the building, while gunfire could also be heard.

    The city's police chief, Kanat Taimerdenov, said "extremists and radicals" had attacked 500 civilians and ransacked hundreds of businesses.

    Water cannon were used against protesters in the western city of Aktobe. There are reports that security forces have sided with protesters in some places.

    However, getting a clear picture of what is happening in the central Asian nation is proving difficult. The interior ministry released figures of reported casualties among the security forces, but there were no equivalent reports of any injuries or deaths among protesters amid what monitoring groups have described as a "nation-scale internet blackout".

    Other attempts to end the protests, which began on Sunday when the government lifted the price cap on liquefied petroleum gas which many people use to power their cars, causing it to double in cost, have been made.

    As well as Mr Nazarbayev's dismissal, the entire government has resigned.
    Protests are not only about fuel
    by Olga Ivshina, BBC Russian

    The speed at which the protests turned violent took many by surprise, both in Kazakhstan and in the wider region, and hinted that they are not only about an increase in fuel prices.

    This is a traditionally stable Central Asian state, which is often described as authoritarian. Until 2019 it was run by President Nursultan Nazarbayev, whose rule was marked by elements of a personality cult, with his statues erected across the country and a capital renamed after him.

    Yet when he left, it was amid anti-government protests which he sought to limit by stepping down and putting a close ally in his place.

    Most elections in Kazakhstan are won by the ruling party with nearly 100% of the vote and there is no effective political opposition.

    The analysts I spoke to say that the Kazakh government clearly underestimated how angry the population was, and that these protests were not surprising in a country with no electoral democracy - people need to take to the streets to be heard.

    And their grievances are almost certainly about a far wider set of issues than the price of fuel.
    Unrest in as large and important a CSTO state like Kazakhstan is always worrisome. Given the Taliban are now in charge at the southern end of the 'Stans' I hope that this doesn't spiral out of control as central asian stability is certainly at stake.
    I personally don't think this will last long as the population is generally fairly rural and dispersed outside the few major cities.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  30. #120

    Default Re: Great Power contentions

    The protests were first sparked by rising fuel prices, but have broadened to include other political grievances.
    This is just what happened in Cuba a mere half-year ago, and laterally in France 3 (!) years ago, among many other examples.

    Whether motivated by climate adaptation or other reasons, or even as external development, it is evident that governments have little choice but to counter rising food or fuel prices with compensatory aid or credits.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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