Oda Guide

**Khan of Steppe** · 06-03-2021, 02:53

Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Enjoy and don't forget that we welcome content creators here, so post often!

Thanks again edyz, I appreciate the encouragement!

**Khan of Steppe** · 07-07-2021, 10:00

Hello Folks!

I thought I'd just use this thread to show some of my progress on my current Oda campaign as well as demonstrate how I like use guns in this game. There's something that I haven't seen or read much of regarding army micro in this game and that is the use of formation controls or more precisely the number keys. Perhaps the high level online players saw no need for using these but I find that they can serve a respectable purpose amongst the use of basic strategies. This is something that I explain in the beginning of one of the battles in this video so check it out if you'd like to see some gunplay from this awesome game!

The battle of note starts at around the 19:22 mark so by all means jump ahead and get straight to the goods why don'tcha

**ReluctantSamurai** · 07-09-2021, 15:10

First off, it was a lot of fun to watch Shoggie on the battlefield again...

I wish I had the time to play, but I don't. Truth be known, since I upgraded my OS, I haven't even reinstalled the game...

I'll offer my comments, for what they're worth.

We've already had the discussion about the battle timer before, and it's a matter of preference. In the Hida battle, the timer actually worked in your favor as you didn't have to actually fight the entire Hojo army of 9000+. The flip side to that, however, is that if you had had to, and killed off the larger portion of that army, you wouldn't be facing that massive horde of rebels in Etchu...

Everyone has their own way of fighting bridge battles while on the attack. In the Mikawa battle, I noticed you used Naginata as bait. IMHO, better to use cheap Ashi to do that, and line the river banks with your guns. Granted Mikawa doesn't have an ideal long stretch of bank to shoot from, but still ample opportunity to greatly whittle down the enemy forces. And this is an example of where the timer works to your disadvantage, because you can't "rinse-and-repeat" the baiting trick for too long. One of the better units to use after you've worn down the opposition enough to actually launch an assault, is Naginata Cavalry. The AI taught me this one. When present in an opposing army (me on the defense), they cross the bridge quickly, and are very good at getting into enemy archer formations...a lesson I learned the painful way...

I also notice you don't use Cavalry Archers much (at all?). They are sooooo effective at getting the AI to approach your defenders where you want them to go (the AI almost always gives chase), while whittling down the attackers in the process. Enemy Yari Cav, you might argue? I learned to keep my skirmishers in tandem (I usually had 2 CA and 2 YC per army, though that varied depending on the situation). CA's to harass, YC's to cover against enemy YC. I'd skirmish them until they used about half their ammo and then returned them behind my main army to rest. They then could act as fast-moving archer support, and finally chase down routers. My love for Cavalry Archers continued into RTW, where my favorite factions were.............Horse Archer clans....OF COURSE!

You noted in the Hida battle, that the Hojo had 9000+ troops available, but the first wave was small. The AI always sends in depleted units first to use up your arrows and bullets, and create fatigue before the main 'bodies' attack. I'm pretty sure that's a deliberate tactic the Devs built in, but I can't prove that. Without a timer, one has to be extremely careful with ammo use, even when you have shooters as reinforcements, as you might find yourself without that kind of support later on...

I always broke up the first wave without using too much ammo, and sent in cavalry to chase off any remaining units and routers. With a timer, you probably don't need to do that (I noticed your lone YC unit never even moved...

), but with no timer it's essential.

I also noticed enemy cav got to your guns on your left flank...oooops

With a single spear/sword unit to protect two gun units, that was inevitable. In a tight battle where you are relying heavily on Teppo, they must be protected better, IMHO. The Hedgehog formation (no it's not in the Shoggie formation choices, you have to do it manually) stops that from happening, and keeps your guns from having to retreat behind protective units most of the time. There's a big discussion about that around here somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up.

You also made mention of the devastating power of guns. What unit stats are you using, because in the original Shogun, Teppo stat balance wasn't too bad, but in the WE Edition, guns got tweaked in their favor much too far. Puzz3D was a long time gamer and modder around here for quite some while and he understood Teppo better than anyone, IMHO. I do believe he came out with a patch that brought guns stats back into a more reasonable place...

Anyway, a few quick observations, and a Thank You...

[edit]

As an example of the fine detail of balancing stats (in this case guns, go to post#23):

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/113542-STW-and-WE-are-not-the-same-game

**Khan of Steppe** · 07-11-2021, 02:10

First off, it was a lot of fun to watch Shoggie on the battlefield again...

I wish I had the time to play, but I don't. Truth be known, since I upgraded my OS, I haven't even reinstalled the game...

I'll offer my comments, for what they're worth.

Hey ReluctantSamurai! It's good to chat with you again and I appreciate you giving the video a watch

We've already had the discussion about the battle timer before, and it's a matter of preference. In the Hida battle, the timer actually worked in your favor as you didn't have to actually fight the entire Hojo army of 9000+. The flip side to that, however, is that if you had had to, and killed off the larger portion of that army, you wouldn't be facing that massive horde of rebels in Etchu...

All true, in fact the more I record for my channel the more I realize that atm I just don't have the time to play battles without the timer. Just for reference I'm currently recording for two hours for every one hour video (after edits), playing without the battle timer just isn't practical for channel purposes. However I do still need to play a campaign with the timer off just so I know what I'm missing

Everyone has their own way of fighting bridge battles while on the attack. In the Mikawa battle, I noticed you used Naginata as bait. IMHO, better to use cheap Ashi to do that, and line the river banks with your guns. Granted Mikawa doesn't have an ideal long stretch of bank to shoot from, but still ample opportunity to greatly whittle down the enemy forces. And this is an example of where the timer works to your disadvantage, because you can't "rinse-and-repeat" the baiting trick for too long. One of the better units to use after you've worn down the opposition enough to actually launch an assault, is Naginata Cavalry. The AI taught me this one. When present in an opposing army (me on the defense), they cross the bridge quickly, and are very good at getting into enemy archer formations...a lesson I learned the painful way...

You know I actually will try to use YA in the early game including for bridge baiting but I really do prefer Naginata once I can train them. When facing a defense force of 7+ SA + CA I find that the YA won't even make it far enough to bait out any units. In the early game when facing only a couple missile units that can actually be effective though.

Using NC however is an interesting idea that I hadn't heard of or seen before. Are you saying that you'll just rush them across immediately before the enemy has a chance to get set up and then you'll immediately follow up with the rest of your force? Sounds pretty bold to be sure. My Hojo army comp uses a lot of NC so maybe I can give this a try when I record that campaign.

I also notice you don't use Cavalry Archers much (at all?). They are sooooo effective at getting the AI to approach your defenders where you want them to go (the AI almost always gives chase), while whittling down the attackers in the process. Enemy Yari Cav, you might argue? I learned to keep my skirmishers in tandem (I usually had 2 CA and 2 YC per army, though that varied depending on the situation). CA's to harass, YC's to cover against enemy YC. I'd skirmish them until they used about half their ammo and then returned them behind my main army to rest. They then could act as fast-moving archer support, and finally chase down routers. My love for Cavalry Archers continued into RTW, where my favorite factions were.............Horse Archer clans....OF COURSE!

They actually are my favorite unit as well! It's just that I've selected specific army comps for each faction just so that I can showcase different units/playstyles with different campaign playthroughs. CA will be used in my Takeda and Uesugi armies for sure. It's just that a 16 unit army cap is limiting and it's impossible to bring everything I want. Frankly I'm shocked that you'd bring 2 CA and 2YC therefore dedicating a fourth of your army to light cav. I'm not saying that I can't see it working...it's just that there's a lot of unfavorable ground for cavalry in this game. Just to clarify I do go cav heavy in my Takeda campaign but I get to cover my CA with a legion of heavy cav and just enough infantry support to flush the enemy out of forests.

Anyhoo my Oda army comp clearly has a more pike and shot feel to it, therefore I don't have room for all the funs things

You noted in the Hida battle, that the Hojo had 9000+ troops available, but the first wave was small. The AI always sends in depleted units first to use up your arrows and bullets, and create fatigue before the main 'bodies' attack. I'm pretty sure that's a deliberate tactic the Devs built in, but I can't prove that. Without a timer, one has to be extremely careful with ammo use, even when you have shooters as reinforcements, as you might find yourself without that kind of support later on...

I always broke up the first wave without using too much ammo, and sent in cavalry to chase off any remaining units and routers. With a timer, you probably don't need to do that (I noticed your lone YC unit never even moved...

), but with no timer it's essential.

Actually my guess is that the army that the AI uses will always be the one that has the highest general on the campaign map. Often times this army is banged up from previous battles and for some reason the AI doesn't seem to replenish their "fighting" armies with their reserve armies in between turns. I don't think this is intentional but whether it is or isn't you're right in that it is a good strategy to send out a "vanguard" force to get the human player to waste ammo and energy on a false contest. The only issue is that by doing so they're conceding any favorable terrain that they could've possessed.

I also noticed enemy cav got to your guns on your left flank...oooops

With a single spear/sword unit to protect two gun units, that was inevitable. In a tight battle where you are relying heavily on Teppo, they must be protected better, IMHO. The Hedgehog formation (no it's not in the Shoggie formation choices, you have to do it manually) stops that from happening, and keeps your guns from having to retreat behind protective units most of the time. There's a big discussion about that around here somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up.

Now you got me curious, what is this hedgehog formation?

I did make a mistake in the battle and yes it can be difficult to keep the enemy off my guns with only one spearmen but I got caught trying to be too cute in this battle. If I had simply pressed the "2" key and switched my formation into a "melee forward" formation the spearmen would've covered the length of the two teppo units. Instead I was playing for the cameras and I tried doing a fancy Spanish Tercio type thing that ended up getting caught by the enemy light cav. Also the ideal version of this strategy is that my center takes the baulk of the aggro while my guns shoot in from the flanks...which isn't something I quite accomplished in this battle. What can I say I was busy talking and admiring the guns going boom

Still I'm curious, I've read a decent amount about gun usage on these forums and and can't quite remember this hedgehog formation. I'll see if I can come up with it when I have a spare minute.

You also made mention of the devastating power of guns. What unit stats are you using, because in the original Shogun, Teppo stat balance wasn't too bad, but in the WE Edition, guns got tweaked in their favor much too far. Puzz3D was a long time gamer and modder around here for quite some while and he understood Teppo better than anyone, IMHO. I do believe he came out with a patch that brought guns stats back into a more reasonable place...

Yeah I've seen of lot of Puzz3D's contributions to this forum! I don't know if I've read the linked thread that you posted in it's entirety so I'll give that another look when I get the chance.

Anyway, a few quick observations, and a Thank You...

Good chatting with you as always!

[edit]

As an example of the fine detail of balancing stats (in this case guns, go to post#23):

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/113542-STW-and-WE-are-not-the-same-game

**ReluctantSamurai** · 07-11-2021, 04:38

Just for reference I'm currently recording for two hours for every one hour video (after edits), playing without the battle timer just isn't practical for channel purposes.

A lot of work, which I can appreciate

Using NC however is an interesting idea that I hadn't heard of or seen before. Are you saying that you'll just rush them across immediately before the enemy has a chance to get set up and then you'll immediately follow up with the rest of your force?

No, you still have to bait first. If the enemy formations are archer heavy, this inevitably draws them closer to the bridge. If you have Musket and reasonably straight banks on either side of the bridge, you can shoot them to pieces as Musket outranges Samurai Archers. But not all bridge approaches are that ideal, hence the Naginata Cavalry. As I said, the AI constantly used them against me when my bridge defense was archer heavy. Caught me off guard the first couple of times as they cross the bridge much, MUCH quicker than foot soldiers, and got into my archers before I could close in with spears. Then I started watching the queue lining up for the bridge, and as soon as NC took their place, archers/guns withdrew to safety beforehand...

When I got tired of 'traditional' campaigns and played just to have fun without regard to strict clan unit choices, I came up with the perfect 'bridge-busting' army-----15 BFN + 1 Kensei

Can be done in any weather, but absolutely killer in heavy fog. The BFN cross the bridge (fire-at-will off, of course) and take up their positions. Then the Kensei steps into view on the bridge and all hell breaks loose. Almost fell out my chair laughing the first time I tried it. A 4 or 5 star Kensei general is.....well.....frightening....

Now you got me curious, what is this hedgehog formation?

Went as far back as 2002, but couldn't find what I was looking for, so I will attempt a crude drawing:

YS-YS-YS-YS-YS.....................YS-YS-YS-YS-YS

...................G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G..................

YS is obviously a formation of Yari Samurai (or Ashigaru), and G for your Teppo (the numbers shown are irrelevant and for display only). You tilt the left units' left flank slightly forward, and the right units' right flank slightly forward forming a slight V inclined into your guns. A cavalry charge inevitably 'hangs' its' corners on the spear formations and slows considerably. If you time it right, your guns deliver one last deadly volley at close range before moving back and the Yari clamp the vise shut. Sounds complicated, but really it's not after a few go arounds with it. You don't get as many friendly fire casualties as you might think. You can check the battle log to verify those numbers. It's not very much different than what Oda Nobunaga did at Nagashino. Instead of a mobile spear wall covering the guns, Oda used fixed fortifications to funnel Takeda cavalry into his guns. Same result....lots of dead horsemen....

Remember my description of the Oda 1580 showdown in Mino with Takeda and Imagawa? This technique crushes Takeda's cavalry including those gold armor Heavy Cav he brings. After a few attempted charges, the only thing left are his Cavalry Archers. The name Hedgehog comes from what the formation looks like if you link 3 gun units and six spear units together. It resembles what's known in farming country as a hedgehog....

Frankly I'm shocked that you'd bring 2 CA and 2YC therefore dedicating a fourth of your army to light cav.

Oh, it's sometimes more, especially on defense. I'm a cavalry man at heart, and I use them extensively. Comes in very handy when the AI tries one of its' bum-rush flanking attempts, where its' entire army moves to either one of your flanks. On flat to rolling terrain, I might have as many as 4 Cavalry Archers, and I've had battles where I completely rout enemy SA's because I'm giving them flanking or rear fire as they struggle to keep up with their main force. It is soooo much fun to be disruptive and a complete pain-in-the-ass for the AI. Be honest, how many times has the AI had you muttering under your breath as you try and chase off those @#$%-*&^% Cavalry Archers?...

And you play with the timer, I don't. You absolutely need cavalry to chase off broken units and routers to conserve ammo. If you had fought the entire 9000+ in Hida without a timer, good chance you would have lost as you'd have been completely out of ammo half way through, and your troops too tired to fight well...

...but I get to cover my CA with a legion of heavy cav...

In my experience, HC are too slow to cover for CA, and they tire quickly. Better to use YC, IMHO. Besides, HC like NC are for breaking infantry lines, no?

**Khan of Steppe** · 07-13-2021, 06:12

When I got tired of 'traditional' campaigns and played just to have fun without regard to strict clan unit choices, I came up with the perfect 'bridge-busting' army-----15 BFN + 1 Kensei

Can be done in any weather, but absolutely killer in heavy fog. The BFN cross the bridge (fire-at-will off, of course) and take up their positions. Then the Kensei steps into view on the bridge and all hell breaks loose. Almost fell out my chair laughing the first time I tried it. A 4 or 5 star Kensei general is.....well.....frightening....

I've actually come across your post where you first described this and I'm still waiting to get the opportunity to give this a try. I've used 4 BFN with a more normal army while bridge crossing and I copied the tactic but I'm sure it works way better with 15 BFN lol

The next campaign I'm going to record after my Oda one is going to be an Imagawa one. I'll try to build that army and get them into a river battle. It's too bad every thing in that army takes so long to train...this might end up being a long campaign

If it happens you'll be sure that I post a video of it and give you a shout out for the inspiration

Went as far back as 2002, but couldn't find what I was looking for, so I will attempt a crude drawing:

YS-YS-YS-YS-YS.....................YS-YS-YS-YS-YS

...................G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G..................

YS is obviously a formation of Yari Samurai (or Ashigaru), and G for your Teppo (the numbers shown are irrelevant and for display only). You tilt the left units' left flank slightly forward, and the right units' right flank slightly forward forming a slight V inclined into your guns. A cavalry charge inevitably 'hangs' its' corners on the spear formations and slows considerably. If you time it right, your guns deliver one last deadly volley at close range before moving back and the Yari clamp the vise shut. Sounds complicated, but really it's not after a few go arounds with it. You don't get as many friendly fire casualties as you might think. You can check the battle log to verify those numbers. It's not very much different than what Oda Nobunaga did at Nagashino. Instead of a mobile spear wall covering the guns, Oda used fixed fortifications to funnel Takeda cavalry into his guns. Same result....lots of dead horsemen....

Remember my description of the Oda 1580 showdown in Mino with Takeda and Imagawa? This technique crushes Takeda's cavalry including those gold armor Heavy Cav he brings. After a few attempted charges, the only thing left are his Cavalry Archers. The name Hedgehog comes from what the formation looks like if you link 3 gun units and six spear units together. It resembles what's known in farming country as a hedgehog....

Got it, I appreciate the description. That'll come in handy when I finally get around to playing the 1580 Oda campaign. That actually could've worked well with my Shimazu army comps. Hmm you're definitely giving me some thoughts on how to rework my army strats. I'm actually going to start playing some Medieval later this year and I'm curious as to the effectiveness of gun strats in the late era in that game.

Oh, it's sometimes more, especially on defense. I'm a cavalry man at heart, and I use them extensively. Comes in very handy when the AI tries one of its' bum-rush flanking attempts, where its' entire army moves to either one of your flanks. On flat to rolling terrain, I might have as many as 4 Cavalry Archers, and I've had battles where I completely rout enemy SA's because I'm giving them flanking or rear fire as they struggle to keep up with their main force. It is soooo much fun to be disruptive and a complete pain-in-the-ass for the AI. Be honest, how many times has the AI had you muttering under your breath as you try and chase off those @#$%-*&^% Cavalry Archers?...

And you play with the timer, I don't. You absolutely need cavalry to chase off broken units and routers to conserve ammo. If you had fought the entire 9000+ in Hida without a timer, good chance you would have lost as you'd have been completely out of ammo half way through, and your troops too tired to fight well...

In my experience, HC are too slow to cover for CA, and they tire quickly. Better to use YC, IMHO. Besides, HC like NC are for breaking infantry lines, no?

See it's times like this where I wish youtube existed when this game first came out because I'd really like to see how ya'll actually played this game back then. I've admittedly dumbed down a lot of my micro decisions (and army comp decisions) by using an imperfect group formation system as well as being very slow and methodical with my army movements. For the most part I play high and tight, I keep my army together and move from terrain advantage to terrain advantage until the enemy A.I. has no choice but to take a bad engagement. I'll do this even when I'm playing with cav heavy armies. My Takeda army comp has 5 CA, 4 HC, 3 YS, 3SA, and 1 YC and I'll still move and fight with that army in a very similar way that I do with my infantry heavy armies. Personally I feel like a lot of this comes down to the clunkiness of the controls and the camera and even the unit responsiveness (more precisely the lack of). Therefore I've made a lot of decisions to intentionally dumb down my battle micro while still maintaining a respectable degree of competence in my tactics.

However when I read your posts (and others) describing your cav play where quite frankly you're fighting with light cav the way they were intended to be used I become very curious. I mean I've had units of CA and YC just run right off the battlefield because they were tired and their backs were facing the enemy (because you know...I was using them mislead and redirect enemy units). And yet here I'm reading you describe your cavalry play and my imagination fails me. Like how did you people play this game?!