Oda Guide

[ReluctantSamurai]

Just for reference I'm currently recording for two hours for every one hour video (after edits), playing without the battle timer just isn't practical for channel purposes.

A lot of work, which I can appreciate

Using NC however is an interesting idea that I hadn't heard of or seen before. Are you saying that you'll just rush them across immediately before the enemy has a chance to get set up and then you'll immediately follow up with the rest of your force?

No, you still have to bait first. If the enemy formations are archer heavy, this inevitably draws them closer to the bridge. If you have Musket and reasonably straight banks on either side of the bridge, you can shoot them to pieces as Musket outranges Samurai Archers. But not all bridge approaches are that ideal, hence the Naginata Cavalry. As I said, the AI constantly used them against me when my bridge defense was archer heavy. Caught me off guard the first couple of times as they cross the bridge much, MUCH quicker than foot soldiers, and got into my archers before I could close in with spears. Then I started watching the queue lining up for the bridge, and as soon as NC took their place, archers/guns withdrew to safety beforehand...
When I got tired of 'traditional' campaigns and played just to have fun without regard to strict clan unit choices, I came up with the perfect 'bridge-busting' army-----15 BFN + 1 KenseiCan be done in any weather, but absolutely killer in heavy fog. The BFN cross the bridge (fire-at-will off, of course) and take up their positions. Then the Kensei steps into view on the bridge and all hell breaks loose. Almost fell out my chair laughing the first time I tried it. A 4 or 5 star Kensei general is.....well.....frightening....

Now you got me curious, what is this hedgehog formation?

Went as far back as 2002, but couldn't find what I was looking for, so I will attempt a crude drawing:


YS-YS-YS-YS-YS.....................YS-YS-YS-YS-YS

...................G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G..................

YS is obviously a formation of Yari Samurai (or Ashigaru), and G for your Teppo (the numbers shown are irrelevant and for display only). You tilt the left units' left flank slightly forward, and the right units' right flank slightly forward forming a slight V inclined into your guns. A cavalry charge inevitably 'hangs' its' corners on the spear formations and slows considerably. If you time it right, your guns deliver one last deadly volley at close range before moving back and the Yari clamp the vise shut. Sounds complicated, but really it's not after a few go arounds with it. You don't get as many friendly fire casualties as you might think. You can check the battle log to verify those numbers. It's not very much different than what Oda Nobunaga did at Nagashino. Instead of a mobile spear wall covering the guns, Oda used fixed fortifications to funnel Takeda cavalry into his guns. Same result....lots of dead horsemen....

Remember my description of the Oda 1580 showdown in Mino with Takeda and Imagawa? This technique crushes Takeda's cavalry including those gold armor Heavy Cav he brings. After a few attempted charges, the only thing left are his Cavalry Archers. The name Hedgehog comes from what the formation looks like if you link 3 gun units and six spear units together. It resembles what's known in farming country as a hedgehog....

Frankly I'm shocked that you'd bring 2 CA and 2YC therefore dedicating a fourth of your army to light cav.

Oh, it's sometimes more, especially on defense. I'm a cavalry man at heart, and I use them extensively. Comes in very handy when the AI tries one of its' bum-rush flanking attempts, where its' entire army moves to either one of your flanks. On flat to rolling terrain, I might have as many as 4 Cavalry Archers, and I've had battles where I completely rout enemy SA's because I'm giving them flanking or rear fire as they struggle to keep up with their main force. It is soooo much fun to be disruptive and a complete pain-in-the-ass for the AI. Be honest, how many times has the AI had you muttering under your breath as you try and chase off those @#$%-*&^% Cavalry Archers?... And you play with the timer, I don't. You absolutely need cavalry to chase off broken units and routers to conserve ammo. If you had fought the entire 9000+ in Hida without a timer, good chance you would have lost as you'd have been completely out of ammo half way through, and your troops too tired to fight well...

...but I get to cover my CA with a legion of heavy cav...

In my experience, HC are too slow to cover for CA, and they tire quickly. Better to use YC, IMHO. Besides, HC like NC are for breaking infantry lines, no?

[Khan of Steppe]

When I got tired of 'traditional' campaigns and played just to have fun without regard to strict clan unit choices, I came up with the perfect 'bridge-busting' army-----15 BFN + 1 KenseiCan be done in any weather, but absolutely killer in heavy fog. The BFN cross the bridge (fire-at-will off, of course) and take up their positions. Then the Kensei steps into view on the bridge and all hell breaks loose. Almost fell out my chair laughing the first time I tried it. A 4 or 5 star Kensei general is.....well.....frightening....

I've actually come across your post where you first described this and I'm still waiting to get the opportunity to give this a try. I've used 4 BFN with a more normal army while bridge crossing and I copied the tactic but I'm sure it works way better with 15 BFN lol The next campaign I'm going to record after my Oda one is going to be an Imagawa one. I'll try to build that army and get them into a river battle. It's too bad every thing in that army takes so long to train...this might end up being a long campaign If it happens you'll be sure that I post a video of it and give you a shout out for the inspiration

Went as far back as 2002, but couldn't find what I was looking for, so I will attempt a crude drawing:


YS-YS-YS-YS-YS.....................YS-YS-YS-YS-YS

...................G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G..................

YS is obviously a formation of Yari Samurai (or Ashigaru), and G for your Teppo (the numbers shown are irrelevant and for display only). You tilt the left units' left flank slightly forward, and the right units' right flank slightly forward forming a slight V inclined into your guns. A cavalry charge inevitably 'hangs' its' corners on the spear formations and slows considerably. If you time it right, your guns deliver one last deadly volley at close range before moving back and the Yari clamp the vise shut. Sounds complicated, but really it's not after a few go arounds with it. You don't get as many friendly fire casualties as you might think. You can check the battle log to verify those numbers. It's not very much different than what Oda Nobunaga did at Nagashino. Instead of a mobile spear wall covering the guns, Oda used fixed fortifications to funnel Takeda cavalry into his guns. Same result....lots of dead horsemen....

Remember my description of the Oda 1580 showdown in Mino with Takeda and Imagawa? This technique crushes Takeda's cavalry including those gold armor Heavy Cav he brings. After a few attempted charges, the only thing left are his Cavalry Archers. The name Hedgehog comes from what the formation looks like if you link 3 gun units and six spear units together. It resembles what's known in farming country as a hedgehog....

Got it, I appreciate the description. That'll come in handy when I finally get around to playing the 1580 Oda campaign. That actually could've worked well with my Shimazu army comps. Hmm you're definitely giving me some thoughts on how to rework my army strats. I'm actually going to start playing some Medieval later this year and I'm curious as to the effectiveness of gun strats in the late era in that game.

Oh, it's sometimes more, especially on defense. I'm a cavalry man at heart, and I use them extensively. Comes in very handy when the AI tries one of its' bum-rush flanking attempts, where its' entire army moves to either one of your flanks. On flat to rolling terrain, I might have as many as 4 Cavalry Archers, and I've had battles where I completely rout enemy SA's because I'm giving them flanking or rear fire as they struggle to keep up with their main force. It is soooo much fun to be disruptive and a complete pain-in-the-ass for the AI. Be honest, how many times has the AI had you muttering under your breath as you try and chase off those @#$%-*&^% Cavalry Archers?... And you play with the timer, I don't. You absolutely need cavalry to chase off broken units and routers to conserve ammo. If you had fought the entire 9000+ in Hida without a timer, good chance you would have lost as you'd have been completely out of ammo half way through, and your troops too tired to fight well...



In my experience, HC are too slow to cover for CA, and they tire quickly. Better to use YC, IMHO. Besides, HC like NC are for breaking infantry lines, no?

See it's times like this where I wish youtube existed when this game first came out because I'd really like to see how ya'll actually played this game back then. I've admittedly dumbed down a lot of my micro decisions (and army comp decisions) by using an imperfect group formation system as well as being very slow and methodical with my army movements. For the most part I play high and tight, I keep my army together and move from terrain advantage to terrain advantage until the enemy A.I. has no choice but to take a bad engagement. I'll do this even when I'm playing with cav heavy armies. My Takeda army comp has 5 CA, 4 HC, 3 YS, 3SA, and 1 YC and I'll still move and fight with that army in a very similar way that I do with my infantry heavy armies. Personally I feel like a lot of this comes down to the clunkiness of the controls and the camera and even the unit responsiveness (more precisely the lack of). Therefore I've made a lot of decisions to intentionally dumb down my battle micro while still maintaining a respectable degree of competence in my tactics.

However when I read your posts (and others) describing your cav play where quite frankly you're fighting with light cav the way they were intended to be used I become very curious. I mean I've had units of CA and YC just run right off the battlefield because they were tired and their backs were facing the enemy (because you know...I was using them mislead and redirect enemy units). And yet here I'm reading you describe your cavalry play and my imagination fails me. Like how did you people play this game?!

[Khan of Steppe]

Like how did you people play this game?!

You don't have to answer this question, it's loaded as hell lol

[Khan of Steppe]

Hello Folks!

Just one more vid from my Oda campaign. In this one I actually my my first ever defense of Kaga! I was super excited for this one as I've only ever fought as the attacker on Kaga and I really like the province design. The map design overall in Shogun is really neat and I like how different each map is. Kaga however is on another level, it's just really special in my eyes. (So special that I'll wait until the AI kills all the WM that inhabit Kaga before I even think of taking the province )

Go ahead and skip to the 45:50 mark for the Kaga fight!

[ReluctantSamurai]

See it's times like this where I wish youtube existed when this game first came out because I'd really like to see how ya'll actually played this game back then.

Yep...would've been a lot of fun. I only came in at the tail end of 'back in the day', and never got the chance to participate in MP games. My one regret, I suppose...I would've liked to have pitted my cavalry skills against the best...

I'm also bummed that I somehow lost or deleted my Shogun Fraps screen shots. I have a huge folder filled with my RTW shots, but seem to have lost my Shogun screenies when transferring data from an old hard drive to a newer one...

I've admittedly dumbed down a lot of my micro decisions (and army comp decisions) by using an imperfect group formation system as well as being very slow and methodical with my army movements.

The only grouping I ever did was to my archers, especially defending bridges where it made it much easier to turn on/off fire-at-will to conserve ammo. So yes, I did a tremendous amount of micro-managing which led to having to hit the pause button during an epic 2-3 hour battle just so I could catch a breather....

For the most part I play high and tight, I keep my army together and move from terrain advantage to terrain advantage until the enemy A.I. has no choice but to take a bad engagement. I'll do this even when I'm playing with cav heavy armies.

Everyone has their own style. The closest analogy I can think of is an NFL football team that likes to pound the ball on offense with a punishing ground game and control the clock, versus a team that wheels and deals with a quick-strike capability without regard to field position. Both styles can produce victories, both have their weaknesses.

My Takeda army comp has 5 CA, 4 HC, 3 YS, 3SA, and 1 YC and I'll still move and fight with that army in a very similar way that I do with my infantry heavy armies.

My opinion on that army composition is too much HC, probably one too many CA's, and not enough YC. Remember, YC is a spear unit, hence they get a spear bonus vs a sword cav unit like HC. You can't take HC on frontally with YC, but a flanking attack is devastating. A similar tactic to the guns/teppo Hedgehog can be done with CA and YC. When two cavalry armies face off, the AI likes to go after your CA with its' own cavalry. So the CA's skirmish and gradually withdraw behind YC, and as the enemy cav streams between your YC units, you snap the door shut with a double enveloping attack, and your CA's wheel around and charge head-on, which usually results in the complete destruction of the enemy cav unit.

You also should make use of Naginata Cavalry. They have a higher attack value (but slightly lower defensive value), and a higher charge bonus than Heavy Cavalry. That charge bonus is what makes them useful for breaking an infantry line...even better than Heavy Cavalry. The lower defense value means more casualties, but they can be a battle winner.

And yet here I'm reading you describe your cavalry play and my imagination fails me. Like how did you people play this game?!

I prefer an active defense, most of the time. Why let the AI dictate how the battle is fought? It's obvious I like to skirmish. By harassing the enemy with Cavalry Archers, I get to dictate at least some of the pace. That also gives me the chance to survey the field to see what the AI is trying to do. A static set-up on defense often has to be rearranged depending on where the AI chooses to press the attack.

I also love ambushes. I'll even split my army to create them. I'm sure you've noticed the AI marching queue...infantry forward, cavalry flanks, archers in the rear. If there's a patch of woods on either or both sides of its' approach to my main force, a contingent of cavalry hidden in those woods can turn a battle quickly in your favor. If you can wait until you can frontally engage enemy units and tie them down, your cavalry emerges from concealment, wipes out the enemy archers, and now you have the AI army in a vise. Few ever get home to see the wife and kids...

My favorite map is the Yamato province. Gently rolling terrain, with patches of woods scattered throughout the map, and open spaces between. An ambushers dream even with infantry. Nothing more satisfying than seeing your Teppo suddenly step out of a patch of woods and deliver one or two deadly volleys into the enemy flank or rear...

I tend to be more methodical on the attack, but even there I utilize Teppo. Big debate on that, as there were players that said it can't be done. All I can say is that many, many times I used my guns to blow gaping holes in enemy infantry lines before sending in the cavalry to mop up...

Don't have time, just yet, to watch your latest vid...but I will.

[Khan of Steppe]

Yep...would've been a lot of fun. I only came in at the tail end of 'back in the day', and never got the chance to participate in MP games. My one regret, I suppose...I would've liked to have pitted my cavalry skills against the best...

That is too bad. It's also too bad that the changes made in the patch that shipped with the Mongol Invasion effectively neutered the balanced competition by making guns too powerful. I saw that someone (maybe Puzz3D?) made an multiplayer mod that re-balanced the entire unit roster (was it called Samurai Warlords?). That looks like it kept things alive for a little while longer but without dev support it was always doomed to die. My roommate recently played the original Command and Conquer online and he made it sound like there is still a decent multiplayer community for that game. Now that made me jealous, I would love to be able to play some Shoggy online!

The only grouping I ever did was to my archers, especially defending bridges where it made it much easier to turn on/off fire-at-will to conserve ammo. So yes, I did a tremendous amount of micro-managing which led to having to hit the pause button during an epic 2-3 hour battle just so I could catch a breather....

No #key groupings or anything? .....hoooow? You just literally point and clicked your way to cav skirmish dominance?! I'd like to ask if this was normal for the multiplayer community but I suppose you might not know the answer to that. Still that's very impressive.

My opinion on that army composition is too much HC, probably one too many CA's, and not enough YC. Remember, YC is a spear unit, hence they get a spear bonus vs a sword cav unit like HC. You can't take HC on frontally with YC, but a flanking attack is devastating. A similar tactic to the guns/teppo Hedgehog can be done with CA and YC. When two cavalry armies face off, the AI likes to go after your CA with its' own cavalry. So the CA's skirmish and gradually withdraw behind YC, and as the enemy cav streams between your YC units, you snap the door shut with a double enveloping attack, and your CA's wheel around and charge head-on, which usually results in the complete destruction of the enemy cav unit.

All true, and good tacticianship. Next time I play a Takeda campaign I'll be recording so I'll see if I can play it like an actual cavalry army next time.

You also should make use of Naginata Cavalry. They have a higher attack value (but slightly lower defensive value), and a higher charge bonus than Heavy Cavalry. That charge bonus is what makes them useful for breaking an infantry line...even better than Heavy Cavalry. The lower defense value means more casualties, but they can be a battle winner.

Love em, it's just that I'm saving them for my Hojo comp...for no other reason then that I ran out of unique units to build armies around

I prefer an active defense, most of the time. Why let the AI dictate how the battle is fought? It's obvious I like to skirmish. By harassing the enemy with Cavalry Archers, I get to dictate at least some of the pace. That also gives me the chance to survey the field to see what the AI is trying to do. A static set-up on defense often has to be rearranged depending on where the AI chooses to press the attack.

I also love ambushes. I'll even split my army to create them. I'm sure you've noticed the AI marching queue...infantry forward, cavalry flanks, archers in the rear. If there's a patch of woods on either or both sides of its' approach to my main force, a contingent of cavalry hidden in those woods can turn a battle quickly in your favor. If you can wait until you can frontally engage enemy units and tie them down, your cavalry emerges from concealment, wipes out the enemy archers, and now you have the AI army in a vise. Few ever get home to see the wife and kids...

My favorite map is the Yamato province. Gently rolling terrain, with patches of woods scattered throughout the map, and open spaces between. An ambushers dream even with infantry. Nothing more satisfying than seeing your Teppo suddenly step out of a patch of woods and deliver one or two deadly volleys into the enemy flank or rear...

I tend to be more methodical on the attack, but even there I utilize Teppo. Big debate on that, as there were players that said it can't be done. All I can say is that many, many times I used my guns to blow gaping holes in enemy infantry lines before sending in the cavalry to mop up...

Yamato is a really fun map, unfortunately I haven't gotten a chance to play a ton of battles on it. Once I'm pushing through central Japan the remnants of the Oda/Ikko-Ikki war are usually retreating to Ise or Kawachi depending on the direction I'm coming from.

It sounds like your playstyle can be really fun to watch and I always am down for trying something new so I'll see if I can get better at my cav micro by the time I record my Takeda campaign. I'm just starting to practice with the Mongols so that should hopefully give me some practice...now if only the Hojo would stop running away

And yes the Teppo can absolutely be used in attack. That's something that my methodical slow march actually shows off quite well

[ReluctantSamurai]

...(was it called Samurai Warlords?). That looks like it kept things alive for a little while longer but without dev support it was always doomed to die.

Yes, Samurai Warlords. When I get the urge to play Shogun again, it will be the SW version.

No #key groupings or anything? .....hoooow? You just literally point and clicked your way to cav skirmish dominance?!

Yep, pretty much... Dunno if that was normal or not, but point-and-draw was my modus opperandi. Had to occasionally hit the pause button on difficult terrain, but the longer I played, the less I needed to do that.

All true, and good tacticianship. Next time I play a Takeda campaign I'll be recording so I'll see if I can play it like an actual cavalry army next time.

That'll be fun to watch...

It sounds like your playstyle can be really fun to watch and I always am down for trying something new so I'll see if I can get better at my cav micro by the time I record my Takeda campaign.

Bear in mind that my style of play was high-risk, high-reward. When it worked, it was a source of great victories. When it failed....well....you get this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6zQ6ZqEqg0

In any case, I had A LOT of fun playing that way...

[edit]

Found a long lost friend! Going through old boxes of "stuff" and came across a disc with my Shogun .TGA's....woohoo Also has my .TGA's for a Hojo Mongol campaign. Now I can put screenies back into my Nobunaga's Ambition campaign (as soon as I get a new image host). Time to fire up my photo editor and get those TGA's converted to JPEG's.

Looking at end-of-battle screenshots, it was interesting to see kill/loss ratios, and just how much I really used Cavalry Archers. There were a couple of battles where their combined kills were higher than my Musket....