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Thread: Oda Guide

  1. #1

    Default Oda Guide

    Hello Folks!

    Before I get into the guide I wanted to give a shoutout to a thread that I turned to for advice when I was looking for ways to play this tricky clan. It's called "Oda, for PROS" and it's written by ShaiHulud. I don't know if ShaiHulud stills comes around here these days but I just wanted to pay my respects. It's a really good opening strategy so I'll leave a link to his thread and then I'll just say what I have to add afterwards.

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...hlight=imagawa

    Now as you all probably know, clan Oda is one of the more difficult clans to play as in the Sengoku Jidai campaign and I'm told the 1580 Oda campaign is the most difficult challenge that is offered by this game. The primary reason for this challenge lies in their central location. Clan Oda has a southern border of Kawachi, Tamba and Wakasa and these provinces are neighbored by a couple rebel provinces and clan Mori. The rebels won't be there for long as it'll only take Mori a couple turns to take their land. Oda's northern border is held by Owari (which is your capitol), Mino and Wakasa and your northern neighbors will be clan Imagawa, Uesugi and some more rebels in Echizen. This is all very precarious because Mori will be expanding in your direction and Imagawa will start looking towards Mino once they've taken Shinano on turn one. If you don't reinforce your northern and southern borders your neighbors will sense weakness and attack. Unfortunately this requires simultaneously reinforcing five provinces (Owari, Mino, Wakasa, Tamba and Kawachi) which is quite impossible in the time that you have to do it.

    There's more, Ise and Yamashiro are both held by rebels and they just happen to be inside your starting territory. ...also those provinces are garrisoned by Warrior Monks and Samurai Archers. ...oh and the only soldiers you'll start with is Yari Ashigaru and Samurai Archers. And these two provinces will be a problem for you. They will build their forces and they will be aggressive when an opportunity presents itself.

    So how could you possibly prevail against such odds? Well start by reading ShaiHulud's thread. He specifically describes how you can defeat WM's and SA using just YA, SA and your Daimyo. If you're more of a visual learner I will be providing a video at the end of this guide where I demonstrate my strategy for taking Ise and Yamashiro.

    The gist of it is this, you can attack Ise on turn one with four archers, three YA and your Daimyo without leaving any province undefended (except Kii). Once you've taken Ise you'll have access to a Buddhist Temple. This Buddhist Temple is a lot like the Legendary Sword Dojo in Tosa and the Tranquil Garden in Awa in that these buildings will never be randomly destroyed during the initial conquest of the province. This is incredibly useful because this means that you will be producing WM's by turn three (once the siege in Ise is ended). However just because you're now producing WM's doesn't mean Yamashiro is going to be a cakewalk. You see now that the Ikko-Ikki rebels in Yamashiro just witnessed you wiping out their brothers in Ise they'll be coming for you. In my experience the Yamashiro rebels will attack Kawachi or Tamba as early as the summer of 1531, which is five turns into the campaign!! This means you'll have to attack first. I find that as long as I'm attacking Yamashiro by the summer of 1531 I'm good. But this is going to draw a hard limit on how many WM's you can get trained up for that battle. By hard limit I mean one, you'll only be able to get one WM ready for this battle. But that's okay! It can be won using a similar strategy to the one I use in Ise.

    While dealing with these internal threats it's important to focus on reinforcing Mino. Even at the cost of leaving Owari virtually undefended. There's a funny thing about A.I. psychology that will allow you to do this. Because the only enemy province that borders Owari in Mikawa and because Mikawa and Owari are both river provinces that tends to mean that Imagawa won't usually heavily garrison Mikawa at this stage in the campaign because they consider it be be difficult to take. Which consequently means that if Mikawa doesn't have a sizable army to defend then it also won't have a sizable army to attack. Which means that Owari will largely be safe at this point in the campaign. I even leave it "undefended" during a few end turns with a unit in the training queue. The reason why reinforcing Mino is so important is because Imagawa is going to take Shinano on turn one and they'll continue to put most of their soldiers in Shinano to either defend it or to attack from it. And the only province of ours that borders Shinano is Mino. Luckily Mino is mountainous so hopefully that'll help if Imagawa decides to attack but the idea is to reinforce Mino quickly enough so that that attack never happens in the first place. Ideally I'll have my internal rebel situation sorted out in the first year and then I'll push on through the rest of southern Japan without even having to worry about a northern war because I've never presented myself as an opportune target.

    Now I'll present my turn by turn advice, however for this guide it'll be a lot shorter then my other two guides because the only specifics that really matter are the first five turns.

    Turn 1) Move Daimyo, YA and SA from Owari to Ise. Move YA from Kii to Ise. Move SA and YA from Yamato to Ise. Move SA from Iga to Ise. Move SA from Omi to Ise. Move YA from Omi to Iga. Move YA from Kawachi to Yamato. Move SA (heir) from Tamba to Kawachi. Move YA from Mino to Omi. Move SA from Wakasa to Mino. Move Emissary away from Imagawa and keep him moving because he'll be hunted by ninja's. Train YS in Owari. Build Castles in Tamba and Mino. Build Tea House in Owari. Set taxes to very low.

    During the battle in Ise I average around 115 losses while killing most of theirs. In the video I get really lucky and only loose 45!

    Turn 2) End siege in Ise. Move YS from Owari to Mino. Train YS in Owari. Set taxes to punitive.

    With an average harvest I made 2,420 koku.

    Turn3) Train WM in Ise. Train Shinobi in Owari. Move Daimyo's army from Ise to Iga. Move YA from Iga to Omi. Move YA from Omi to Mino. Build Castles in Kawachi and Wakasa. Build Spear Dojo in Mino.

    Turn 4) Move WM from Ise to Iga. Move Shinobi from Owari to Ise. Move YS from Owari to Omi. Move YA from Omi to Mino. Train YS in Owari and train WM in Ise.

    Turn 5) Move Daimyo's army plus WM from Iga to Yamashiro. Move YA from Yamato to Yamashiro. Move YS from Omi to Yamashiro. Move SA(heir) from Kawachi to Yamashiro. Move WM from Ise to Iga. Train YA in Owari and Mino.

    I was able to kill their entire army (420) and lose only 62.

    From here you'll be in a decent position but Mori will come for you soon so I suggest you going for him first. I think I'm attacking him by turn six for seven.

    I'll move my heir to my northern border just so that I have at least one good general on that frontier. In my experience clan Oda has quite bad non family generals. I haven't received anything higher than a one star general in the first five years of the campaign. That'll leave all of the heavy lifting to Papa Oda and Sonny Oda who both start the campaign as three star generals. By keeping my son in the north I should eventually be able to train up another decent general or two during my wars with the southern clans.

    I personally like moving south first for a few reasons. First off, war with Mori seems inevitable. Unlike Imagawa who'll only end up bordering Mino and Owari (and for previously mentioned reasons only Mino will need a concentrated garrison), Mori will be bordering Wakasa, Tamba and Kawachi and all of these provinces are too far away from Owari to be reinforced quickly enough to dissuade clan Mori from attacking you. Secondly when I'm playing as clan Oda I like using guns. I personally prefer using a heavily armored infantry core of Naginata, YS and SA and Muskets while playing as clan Oda. Also I like the money that is provided by the Portuguese Trading Posts and the Churches. However since the Portuguese land in the south first and work their way north it'll be better for me to move south first in an attempt to meet the Portuguese halfway.

    Therefore my first priority in my war with Mori will be to take Mimasaka. This is their capitol and once it's taken their clan will be crippled. Once I hold the Harima - Mimasaka - Inaba line I'll feel pretty safe from clan Mori. Then I'll mainly focus on taking Shikoku. I know that once the Portuguese land in Hizen they'll eventually make their way down to Satsuma and eventually on to Tosa so I'll hope to meet them there.

    Once I can train guns I'll disband all of my monk units and destroy any remaining Buddhist Temples. This part is simply for a bit of role play. I know I can technically have both WM's and Teppo in my armies but I'd rather not simply because trade with the Portuguese will require our clan to convert to Christianity and the Ikko-Ikki monks won't be liking that. If you're curious the army comp I like to use with the Oda is this: 4 SA, 4 Guns, 4 Naginata, 3 YS and 1 YC. It's heavy metal and it's a lot of fun.

    Oh and I almost forgot, I will be taking Echizen as soon as I can. It's garrisoned by a WM and SA so if you attack it with a large enough force they'll simply retreat to Kaga. Echizen is simply amazing to defend. If you haven't fought an epic defense battle in Echizen you're really missing out.

    I hope you all have found this informative! If anyone is interested I do run a Youtube channel where I'm playing as every clan in STW on expert difficulty. I'd love to see some more passionate STW fans so come check out the channel if you'd like!

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzr...CUYWMRoLVzoDBg

    Last edited by Khan of Steppe; 04-08-2021 at 08:04.

    Member thankful for this post:

    Xantan 


  2. #2
    Member Member Xantan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oda Guide

    Hi Khan - I watched a bit of your video on the Anegawa battle, I just want to drop in a little comment to encourage you to continue.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Oda Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Xantan View Post
    Hi Khan - I watched a bit of your video on the Anegawa battle, I just want to drop in a little comment to encourage you to continue.
    Hi Xantan! I appreciate the support

  4. #4
    Member Member Xantan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oda Guide

    I encourage you to post your videos in the Media section of TW Org, you will get more viewers that way. As the admins mentioned, content creation is welcome at Org.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Oda Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Xantan View Post
    I encourage you to post your videos in the Media section of TW Org, you will get more viewers that way. As the admins mentioned, content creation is welcome at Org.
    Ah good idea! I hadn't thought of that. Thank you sir!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Oda Guide

    Soooo I tried copy/pasting the video address and I get a "contains invalid url" message and when I copy the url link in youtube studio I get a "cannot parse media" message. Sooo I googled this and I haven't been able to find any answers. Anyone know what's going on here? What am I doing wrong?

  7. #7
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oda Guide

    Hmm, seems there's an error in here. We'll check it at admin level. Thanks Khan!
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

    Been to:

    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Oda Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Hmm, seems there's an error in here. We'll check it at admin level. Thanks Khan!
    I appreciate it edyzmedieval

  9. #9
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oda Guide

    Hi Khan,

    We did some internal checking, turns out there's an error with one of the plugins. YouTube changed the way videos are parsed and uploaded. Unfortunately the plugin is quite old - 2015 - and there's no more support for it, so it will take some time to find a solution. I would suggest to post your videos in this thread for our patrons to see.

    Thank you.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

    Been to:

    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Oda Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Hi Khan,

    We did some internal checking, turns out there's an error with one of the plugins. YouTube changed the way videos are parsed and uploaded. Unfortunately the plugin is quite old - 2015 - and there's no more support for it, so it will take some time to find a solution. I would suggest to post your videos in this thread for our patrons to see.

    Thank you.
    That'll do, cheers!

  11. #11
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oda Guide

    Enjoy and don't forget that we welcome content creators here, so post often!

    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

    Been to:

    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Oda Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Enjoy and don't forget that we welcome content creators here, so post often!

    Thanks again edyz, I appreciate the encouragement!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Oda Guide

    Hello Folks!

    I thought I'd just use this thread to show some of my progress on my current Oda campaign as well as demonstrate how I like use guns in this game. There's something that I haven't seen or read much of regarding army micro in this game and that is the use of formation controls or more precisely the number keys. Perhaps the high level online players saw no need for using these but I find that they can serve a respectable purpose amongst the use of basic strategies. This is something that I explain in the beginning of one of the battles in this video so check it out if you'd like to see some gunplay from this awesome game!

    The battle of note starts at around the 19:22 mark so by all means jump ahead and get straight to the goods why don'tcha


  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oda Guide

    First off, it was a lot of fun to watch Shoggie on the battlefield again... I wish I had the time to play, but I don't. Truth be known, since I upgraded my OS, I haven't even reinstalled the game...

    I'll offer my comments, for what they're worth.

    We've already had the discussion about the battle timer before, and it's a matter of preference. In the Hida battle, the timer actually worked in your favor as you didn't have to actually fight the entire Hojo army of 9000+. The flip side to that, however, is that if you had had to, and killed off the larger portion of that army, you wouldn't be facing that massive horde of rebels in Etchu...

    Everyone has their own way of fighting bridge battles while on the attack. In the Mikawa battle, I noticed you used Naginata as bait. IMHO, better to use cheap Ashi to do that, and line the river banks with your guns. Granted Mikawa doesn't have an ideal long stretch of bank to shoot from, but still ample opportunity to greatly whittle down the enemy forces. And this is an example of where the timer works to your disadvantage, because you can't "rinse-and-repeat" the baiting trick for too long. One of the better units to use after you've worn down the opposition enough to actually launch an assault, is Naginata Cavalry. The AI taught me this one. When present in an opposing army (me on the defense), they cross the bridge quickly, and are very good at getting into enemy archer formations...a lesson I learned the painful way...

    I also notice you don't use Cavalry Archers much (at all?). They are sooooo effective at getting the AI to approach your defenders where you want them to go (the AI almost always gives chase), while whittling down the attackers in the process. Enemy Yari Cav, you might argue? I learned to keep my skirmishers in tandem (I usually had 2 CA and 2 YC per army, though that varied depending on the situation). CA's to harass, YC's to cover against enemy YC. I'd skirmish them until they used about half their ammo and then returned them behind my main army to rest. They then could act as fast-moving archer support, and finally chase down routers. My love for Cavalry Archers continued into RTW, where my favorite factions were.............Horse Archer clans....OF COURSE!

    You noted in the Hida battle, that the Hojo had 9000+ troops available, but the first wave was small. The AI always sends in depleted units first to use up your arrows and bullets, and create fatigue before the main 'bodies' attack. I'm pretty sure that's a deliberate tactic the Devs built in, but I can't prove that. Without a timer, one has to be extremely careful with ammo use, even when you have shooters as reinforcements, as you might find yourself without that kind of support later on... I always broke up the first wave without using too much ammo, and sent in cavalry to chase off any remaining units and routers. With a timer, you probably don't need to do that (I noticed your lone YC unit never even moved...), but with no timer it's essential.

    I also noticed enemy cav got to your guns on your left flank...oooops With a single spear/sword unit to protect two gun units, that was inevitable. In a tight battle where you are relying heavily on Teppo, they must be protected better, IMHO. The Hedgehog formation (no it's not in the Shoggie formation choices, you have to do it manually) stops that from happening, and keeps your guns from having to retreat behind protective units most of the time. There's a big discussion about that around here somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up.

    You also made mention of the devastating power of guns. What unit stats are you using, because in the original Shogun, Teppo stat balance wasn't too bad, but in the WE Edition, guns got tweaked in their favor much too far. Puzz3D was a long time gamer and modder around here for quite some while and he understood Teppo better than anyone, IMHO. I do believe he came out with a patch that brought guns stats back into a more reasonable place...

    Anyway, a few quick observations, and a Thank You...

    [edit]

    As an example of the fine detail of balancing stats (in this case guns, go to post#23):

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/113542-STW-and-WE-are-not-the-same-game


    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-09-2021 at 15:51.
    High Plains Drifter

  15. #15

    Default Re: Oda Guide

    First off, it was a lot of fun to watch Shoggie on the battlefield again... I wish I had the time to play, but I don't. Truth be known, since I upgraded my OS, I haven't even reinstalled the game...

    I'll offer my comments, for what they're worth.
    Hey ReluctantSamurai! It's good to chat with you again and I appreciate you giving the video a watch

    We've already had the discussion about the battle timer before, and it's a matter of preference. In the Hida battle, the timer actually worked in your favor as you didn't have to actually fight the entire Hojo army of 9000+. The flip side to that, however, is that if you had had to, and killed off the larger portion of that army, you wouldn't be facing that massive horde of rebels in Etchu...
    All true, in fact the more I record for my channel the more I realize that atm I just don't have the time to play battles without the timer. Just for reference I'm currently recording for two hours for every one hour video (after edits), playing without the battle timer just isn't practical for channel purposes. However I do still need to play a campaign with the timer off just so I know what I'm missing

    Everyone has their own way of fighting bridge battles while on the attack. In the Mikawa battle, I noticed you used Naginata as bait. IMHO, better to use cheap Ashi to do that, and line the river banks with your guns. Granted Mikawa doesn't have an ideal long stretch of bank to shoot from, but still ample opportunity to greatly whittle down the enemy forces. And this is an example of where the timer works to your disadvantage, because you can't "rinse-and-repeat" the baiting trick for too long. One of the better units to use after you've worn down the opposition enough to actually launch an assault, is Naginata Cavalry. The AI taught me this one. When present in an opposing army (me on the defense), they cross the bridge quickly, and are very good at getting into enemy archer formations...a lesson I learned the painful way...
    You know I actually will try to use YA in the early game including for bridge baiting but I really do prefer Naginata once I can train them. When facing a defense force of 7+ SA + CA I find that the YA won't even make it far enough to bait out any units. In the early game when facing only a couple missile units that can actually be effective though.

    Using NC however is an interesting idea that I hadn't heard of or seen before. Are you saying that you'll just rush them across immediately before the enemy has a chance to get set up and then you'll immediately follow up with the rest of your force? Sounds pretty bold to be sure. My Hojo army comp uses a lot of NC so maybe I can give this a try when I record that campaign.

    I also notice you don't use Cavalry Archers much (at all?). They are sooooo effective at getting the AI to approach your defenders where you want them to go (the AI almost always gives chase), while whittling down the attackers in the process. Enemy Yari Cav, you might argue? I learned to keep my skirmishers in tandem (I usually had 2 CA and 2 YC per army, though that varied depending on the situation). CA's to harass, YC's to cover against enemy YC. I'd skirmish them until they used about half their ammo and then returned them behind my main army to rest. They then could act as fast-moving archer support, and finally chase down routers. My love for Cavalry Archers continued into RTW, where my favorite factions were.............Horse Archer clans....OF COURSE!
    They actually are my favorite unit as well! It's just that I've selected specific army comps for each faction just so that I can showcase different units/playstyles with different campaign playthroughs. CA will be used in my Takeda and Uesugi armies for sure. It's just that a 16 unit army cap is limiting and it's impossible to bring everything I want. Frankly I'm shocked that you'd bring 2 CA and 2YC therefore dedicating a fourth of your army to light cav. I'm not saying that I can't see it working...it's just that there's a lot of unfavorable ground for cavalry in this game. Just to clarify I do go cav heavy in my Takeda campaign but I get to cover my CA with a legion of heavy cav and just enough infantry support to flush the enemy out of forests.

    Anyhoo my Oda army comp clearly has a more pike and shot feel to it, therefore I don't have room for all the funs things

    You noted in the Hida battle, that the Hojo had 9000+ troops available, but the first wave was small. The AI always sends in depleted units first to use up your arrows and bullets, and create fatigue before the main 'bodies' attack. I'm pretty sure that's a deliberate tactic the Devs built in, but I can't prove that. Without a timer, one has to be extremely careful with ammo use, even when you have shooters as reinforcements, as you might find yourself without that kind of support later on... I always broke up the first wave without using too much ammo, and sent in cavalry to chase off any remaining units and routers. With a timer, you probably don't need to do that (I noticed your lone YC unit never even moved...), but with no timer it's essential.
    Actually my guess is that the army that the AI uses will always be the one that has the highest general on the campaign map. Often times this army is banged up from previous battles and for some reason the AI doesn't seem to replenish their "fighting" armies with their reserve armies in between turns. I don't think this is intentional but whether it is or isn't you're right in that it is a good strategy to send out a "vanguard" force to get the human player to waste ammo and energy on a false contest. The only issue is that by doing so they're conceding any favorable terrain that they could've possessed.

    I also noticed enemy cav got to your guns on your left flank...oooops With a single spear/sword unit to protect two gun units, that was inevitable. In a tight battle where you are relying heavily on Teppo, they must be protected better, IMHO. The Hedgehog formation (no it's not in the Shoggie formation choices, you have to do it manually) stops that from happening, and keeps your guns from having to retreat behind protective units most of the time. There's a big discussion about that around here somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it up.
    Now you got me curious, what is this hedgehog formation?

    I did make a mistake in the battle and yes it can be difficult to keep the enemy off my guns with only one spearmen but I got caught trying to be too cute in this battle. If I had simply pressed the "2" key and switched my formation into a "melee forward" formation the spearmen would've covered the length of the two teppo units. Instead I was playing for the cameras and I tried doing a fancy Spanish Tercio type thing that ended up getting caught by the enemy light cav. Also the ideal version of this strategy is that my center takes the baulk of the aggro while my guns shoot in from the flanks...which isn't something I quite accomplished in this battle. What can I say I was busy talking and admiring the guns going boom

    Still I'm curious, I've read a decent amount about gun usage on these forums and and can't quite remember this hedgehog formation. I'll see if I can come up with it when I have a spare minute.

    You also made mention of the devastating power of guns. What unit stats are you using, because in the original Shogun, Teppo stat balance wasn't too bad, but in the WE Edition, guns got tweaked in their favor much too far. Puzz3D was a long time gamer and modder around here for quite some while and he understood Teppo better than anyone, IMHO. I do believe he came out with a patch that brought guns stats back into a more reasonable place...
    Yeah I've seen of lot of Puzz3D's contributions to this forum! I don't know if I've read the linked thread that you posted in it's entirety so I'll give that another look when I get the chance.

    Anyway, a few quick observations, and a Thank You...
    Good chatting with you as always!

    [edit]

    As an example of the fine detail of balancing stats (in this case guns, go to post#23):

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php/113542-STW-and-WE-are-not-the-same-game



  16. #16
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oda Guide

    Just for reference I'm currently recording for two hours for every one hour video (after edits), playing without the battle timer just isn't practical for channel purposes.
    A lot of work, which I can appreciate

    Using NC however is an interesting idea that I hadn't heard of or seen before. Are you saying that you'll just rush them across immediately before the enemy has a chance to get set up and then you'll immediately follow up with the rest of your force?
    No, you still have to bait first. If the enemy formations are archer heavy, this inevitably draws them closer to the bridge. If you have Musket and reasonably straight banks on either side of the bridge, you can shoot them to pieces as Musket outranges Samurai Archers. But not all bridge approaches are that ideal, hence the Naginata Cavalry. As I said, the AI constantly used them against me when my bridge defense was archer heavy. Caught me off guard the first couple of times as they cross the bridge much, MUCH quicker than foot soldiers, and got into my archers before I could close in with spears. Then I started watching the queue lining up for the bridge, and as soon as NC took their place, archers/guns withdrew to safety beforehand...
    When I got tired of 'traditional' campaigns and played just to have fun without regard to strict clan unit choices, I came up with the perfect 'bridge-busting' army-----15 BFN + 1 KenseiCan be done in any weather, but absolutely killer in heavy fog. The BFN cross the bridge (fire-at-will off, of course) and take up their positions. Then the Kensei steps into view on the bridge and all hell breaks loose. Almost fell out my chair laughing the first time I tried it. A 4 or 5 star Kensei general is.....well.....frightening....

    Now you got me curious, what is this hedgehog formation?
    Went as far back as 2002, but couldn't find what I was looking for, so I will attempt a crude drawing:


    YS-YS-YS-YS-YS.....................YS-YS-YS-YS-YS

    ...................G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G..................

    YS is obviously a formation of Yari Samurai (or Ashigaru), and G for your Teppo (the numbers shown are irrelevant and for display only). You tilt the left units' left flank slightly forward, and the right units' right flank slightly forward forming a slight V inclined into your guns. A cavalry charge inevitably 'hangs' its' corners on the spear formations and slows considerably. If you time it right, your guns deliver one last deadly volley at close range before moving back and the Yari clamp the vise shut. Sounds complicated, but really it's not after a few go arounds with it. You don't get as many friendly fire casualties as you might think. You can check the battle log to verify those numbers. It's not very much different than what Oda Nobunaga did at Nagashino. Instead of a mobile spear wall covering the guns, Oda used fixed fortifications to funnel Takeda cavalry into his guns. Same result....lots of dead horsemen....

    Remember my description of the Oda 1580 showdown in Mino with Takeda and Imagawa? This technique crushes Takeda's cavalry including those gold armor Heavy Cav he brings. After a few attempted charges, the only thing left are his Cavalry Archers. The name Hedgehog comes from what the formation looks like if you link 3 gun units and six spear units together. It resembles what's known in farming country as a hedgehog....

    Frankly I'm shocked that you'd bring 2 CA and 2YC therefore dedicating a fourth of your army to light cav.
    Oh, it's sometimes more, especially on defense. I'm a cavalry man at heart, and I use them extensively. Comes in very handy when the AI tries one of its' bum-rush flanking attempts, where its' entire army moves to either one of your flanks. On flat to rolling terrain, I might have as many as 4 Cavalry Archers, and I've had battles where I completely rout enemy SA's because I'm giving them flanking or rear fire as they struggle to keep up with their main force. It is soooo much fun to be disruptive and a complete pain-in-the-ass for the AI. Be honest, how many times has the AI had you muttering under your breath as you try and chase off those @#$%-*&^% Cavalry Archers?... And you play with the timer, I don't. You absolutely need cavalry to chase off broken units and routers to conserve ammo. If you had fought the entire 9000+ in Hida without a timer, good chance you would have lost as you'd have been completely out of ammo half way through, and your troops too tired to fight well...

    ...but I get to cover my CA with a legion of heavy cav...
    In my experience, HC are too slow to cover for CA, and they tire quickly. Better to use YC, IMHO. Besides, HC like NC are for breaking infantry lines, no?
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-11-2021 at 06:27.
    High Plains Drifter

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  17. #17

    Default Re: Oda Guide

    When I got tired of 'traditional' campaigns and played just to have fun without regard to strict clan unit choices, I came up with the perfect 'bridge-busting' army-----15 BFN + 1 KenseiCan be done in any weather, but absolutely killer in heavy fog. The BFN cross the bridge (fire-at-will off, of course) and take up their positions. Then the Kensei steps into view on the bridge and all hell breaks loose. Almost fell out my chair laughing the first time I tried it. A 4 or 5 star Kensei general is.....well.....frightening....
    I've actually come across your post where you first described this and I'm still waiting to get the opportunity to give this a try. I've used 4 BFN with a more normal army while bridge crossing and I copied the tactic but I'm sure it works way better with 15 BFN lol The next campaign I'm going to record after my Oda one is going to be an Imagawa one. I'll try to build that army and get them into a river battle. It's too bad every thing in that army takes so long to train...this might end up being a long campaign If it happens you'll be sure that I post a video of it and give you a shout out for the inspiration



    Went as far back as 2002, but couldn't find what I was looking for, so I will attempt a crude drawing:


    YS-YS-YS-YS-YS.....................YS-YS-YS-YS-YS

    ...................G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G..................

    YS is obviously a formation of Yari Samurai (or Ashigaru), and G for your Teppo (the numbers shown are irrelevant and for display only). You tilt the left units' left flank slightly forward, and the right units' right flank slightly forward forming a slight V inclined into your guns. A cavalry charge inevitably 'hangs' its' corners on the spear formations and slows considerably. If you time it right, your guns deliver one last deadly volley at close range before moving back and the Yari clamp the vise shut. Sounds complicated, but really it's not after a few go arounds with it. You don't get as many friendly fire casualties as you might think. You can check the battle log to verify those numbers. It's not very much different than what Oda Nobunaga did at Nagashino. Instead of a mobile spear wall covering the guns, Oda used fixed fortifications to funnel Takeda cavalry into his guns. Same result....lots of dead horsemen....

    Remember my description of the Oda 1580 showdown in Mino with Takeda and Imagawa? This technique crushes Takeda's cavalry including those gold armor Heavy Cav he brings. After a few attempted charges, the only thing left are his Cavalry Archers. The name Hedgehog comes from what the formation looks like if you link 3 gun units and six spear units together. It resembles what's known in farming country as a hedgehog....
    Got it, I appreciate the description. That'll come in handy when I finally get around to playing the 1580 Oda campaign. That actually could've worked well with my Shimazu army comps. Hmm you're definitely giving me some thoughts on how to rework my army strats. I'm actually going to start playing some Medieval later this year and I'm curious as to the effectiveness of gun strats in the late era in that game.



    Oh, it's sometimes more, especially on defense. I'm a cavalry man at heart, and I use them extensively. Comes in very handy when the AI tries one of its' bum-rush flanking attempts, where its' entire army moves to either one of your flanks. On flat to rolling terrain, I might have as many as 4 Cavalry Archers, and I've had battles where I completely rout enemy SA's because I'm giving them flanking or rear fire as they struggle to keep up with their main force. It is soooo much fun to be disruptive and a complete pain-in-the-ass for the AI. Be honest, how many times has the AI had you muttering under your breath as you try and chase off those @#$%-*&^% Cavalry Archers?... And you play with the timer, I don't. You absolutely need cavalry to chase off broken units and routers to conserve ammo. If you had fought the entire 9000+ in Hida without a timer, good chance you would have lost as you'd have been completely out of ammo half way through, and your troops too tired to fight well...



    In my experience, HC are too slow to cover for CA, and they tire quickly. Better to use YC, IMHO. Besides, HC like NC are for breaking infantry lines, no?
    See it's times like this where I wish youtube existed when this game first came out because I'd really like to see how ya'll actually played this game back then. I've admittedly dumbed down a lot of my micro decisions (and army comp decisions) by using an imperfect group formation system as well as being very slow and methodical with my army movements. For the most part I play high and tight, I keep my army together and move from terrain advantage to terrain advantage until the enemy A.I. has no choice but to take a bad engagement. I'll do this even when I'm playing with cav heavy armies. My Takeda army comp has 5 CA, 4 HC, 3 YS, 3SA, and 1 YC and I'll still move and fight with that army in a very similar way that I do with my infantry heavy armies. Personally I feel like a lot of this comes down to the clunkiness of the controls and the camera and even the unit responsiveness (more precisely the lack of). Therefore I've made a lot of decisions to intentionally dumb down my battle micro while still maintaining a respectable degree of competence in my tactics.

    However when I read your posts (and others) describing your cav play where quite frankly you're fighting with light cav the way they were intended to be used I become very curious. I mean I've had units of CA and YC just run right off the battlefield because they were tired and their backs were facing the enemy (because you know...I was using them mislead and redirect enemy units). And yet here I'm reading you describe your cavalry play and my imagination fails me. Like how did you people play this game?!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Oda Guide

    Like how did you people play this game?!
    You don't have to answer this question, it's loaded as hell lol

  19. #19

    Default Re: Oda Guide

    Hello Folks!

    Just one more vid from my Oda campaign. In this one I actually my my first ever defense of Kaga! I was super excited for this one as I've only ever fought as the attacker on Kaga and I really like the province design. The map design overall in Shogun is really neat and I like how different each map is. Kaga however is on another level, it's just really special in my eyes. (So special that I'll wait until the AI kills all the WM that inhabit Kaga before I even think of taking the province )

    Go ahead and skip to the 45:50 mark for the Kaga fight!

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  20. #20
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oda Guide

    See it's times like this where I wish youtube existed when this game first came out because I'd really like to see how ya'll actually played this game back then.
    Yep...would've been a lot of fun. I only came in at the tail end of 'back in the day', and never got the chance to participate in MP games. My one regret, I suppose...I would've liked to have pitted my cavalry skills against the best...

    I'm also bummed that I somehow lost or deleted my Shogun Fraps screen shots. I have a huge folder filled with my RTW shots, but seem to have lost my Shogun screenies when transferring data from an old hard drive to a newer one...

    I've admittedly dumbed down a lot of my micro decisions (and army comp decisions) by using an imperfect group formation system as well as being very slow and methodical with my army movements.
    The only grouping I ever did was to my archers, especially defending bridges where it made it much easier to turn on/off fire-at-will to conserve ammo. So yes, I did a tremendous amount of micro-managing which led to having to hit the pause button during an epic 2-3 hour battle just so I could catch a breather....

    For the most part I play high and tight, I keep my army together and move from terrain advantage to terrain advantage until the enemy A.I. has no choice but to take a bad engagement. I'll do this even when I'm playing with cav heavy armies.
    Everyone has their own style. The closest analogy I can think of is an NFL football team that likes to pound the ball on offense with a punishing ground game and control the clock, versus a team that wheels and deals with a quick-strike capability without regard to field position. Both styles can produce victories, both have their weaknesses.

    My Takeda army comp has 5 CA, 4 HC, 3 YS, 3SA, and 1 YC and I'll still move and fight with that army in a very similar way that I do with my infantry heavy armies.
    My opinion on that army composition is too much HC, probably one too many CA's, and not enough YC. Remember, YC is a spear unit, hence they get a spear bonus vs a sword cav unit like HC. You can't take HC on frontally with YC, but a flanking attack is devastating. A similar tactic to the guns/teppo Hedgehog can be done with CA and YC. When two cavalry armies face off, the AI likes to go after your CA with its' own cavalry. So the CA's skirmish and gradually withdraw behind YC, and as the enemy cav streams between your YC units, you snap the door shut with a double enveloping attack, and your CA's wheel around and charge head-on, which usually results in the complete destruction of the enemy cav unit.

    You also should make use of Naginata Cavalry. They have a higher attack value (but slightly lower defensive value), and a higher charge bonus than Heavy Cavalry. That charge bonus is what makes them useful for breaking an infantry line...even better than Heavy Cavalry. The lower defense value means more casualties, but they can be a battle winner.

    And yet here I'm reading you describe your cavalry play and my imagination fails me. Like how did you people play this game?!
    I prefer an active defense, most of the time. Why let the AI dictate how the battle is fought? It's obvious I like to skirmish. By harassing the enemy with Cavalry Archers, I get to dictate at least some of the pace. That also gives me the chance to survey the field to see what the AI is trying to do. A static set-up on defense often has to be rearranged depending on where the AI chooses to press the attack.

    I also love ambushes. I'll even split my army to create them. I'm sure you've noticed the AI marching queue...infantry forward, cavalry flanks, archers in the rear. If there's a patch of woods on either or both sides of its' approach to my main force, a contingent of cavalry hidden in those woods can turn a battle quickly in your favor. If you can wait until you can frontally engage enemy units and tie them down, your cavalry emerges from concealment, wipes out the enemy archers, and now you have the AI army in a vise. Few ever get home to see the wife and kids...

    My favorite map is the Yamato province. Gently rolling terrain, with patches of woods scattered throughout the map, and open spaces between. An ambushers dream even with infantry. Nothing more satisfying than seeing your Teppo suddenly step out of a patch of woods and deliver one or two deadly volleys into the enemy flank or rear...

    I tend to be more methodical on the attack, but even there I utilize Teppo. Big debate on that, as there were players that said it can't be done. All I can say is that many, many times I used my guns to blow gaping holes in enemy infantry lines before sending in the cavalry to mop up...

    Don't have time, just yet, to watch your latest vid...but I will.
    High Plains Drifter

  21. #21

    Default Re: Oda Guide

    Yep...would've been a lot of fun. I only came in at the tail end of 'back in the day', and never got the chance to participate in MP games. My one regret, I suppose...I would've liked to have pitted my cavalry skills against the best...
    That is too bad. It's also too bad that the changes made in the patch that shipped with the Mongol Invasion effectively neutered the balanced competition by making guns too powerful. I saw that someone (maybe Puzz3D?) made an multiplayer mod that re-balanced the entire unit roster (was it called Samurai Warlords?). That looks like it kept things alive for a little while longer but without dev support it was always doomed to die. My roommate recently played the original Command and Conquer online and he made it sound like there is still a decent multiplayer community for that game. Now that made me jealous, I would love to be able to play some Shoggy online!

    The only grouping I ever did was to my archers, especially defending bridges where it made it much easier to turn on/off fire-at-will to conserve ammo. So yes, I did a tremendous amount of micro-managing which led to having to hit the pause button during an epic 2-3 hour battle just so I could catch a breather....
    No #key groupings or anything? .....hoooow? You just literally point and clicked your way to cav skirmish dominance?! I'd like to ask if this was normal for the multiplayer community but I suppose you might not know the answer to that. Still that's very impressive.

    My opinion on that army composition is too much HC, probably one too many CA's, and not enough YC. Remember, YC is a spear unit, hence they get a spear bonus vs a sword cav unit like HC. You can't take HC on frontally with YC, but a flanking attack is devastating. A similar tactic to the guns/teppo Hedgehog can be done with CA and YC. When two cavalry armies face off, the AI likes to go after your CA with its' own cavalry. So the CA's skirmish and gradually withdraw behind YC, and as the enemy cav streams between your YC units, you snap the door shut with a double enveloping attack, and your CA's wheel around and charge head-on, which usually results in the complete destruction of the enemy cav unit.
    All true, and good tacticianship. Next time I play a Takeda campaign I'll be recording so I'll see if I can play it like an actual cavalry army next time.

    You also should make use of Naginata Cavalry. They have a higher attack value (but slightly lower defensive value), and a higher charge bonus than Heavy Cavalry. That charge bonus is what makes them useful for breaking an infantry line...even better than Heavy Cavalry. The lower defense value means more casualties, but they can be a battle winner.
    Love em, it's just that I'm saving them for my Hojo comp...for no other reason then that I ran out of unique units to build armies around



    I prefer an active defense, most of the time. Why let the AI dictate how the battle is fought? It's obvious I like to skirmish. By harassing the enemy with Cavalry Archers, I get to dictate at least some of the pace. That also gives me the chance to survey the field to see what the AI is trying to do. A static set-up on defense often has to be rearranged depending on where the AI chooses to press the attack.

    I also love ambushes. I'll even split my army to create them. I'm sure you've noticed the AI marching queue...infantry forward, cavalry flanks, archers in the rear. If there's a patch of woods on either or both sides of its' approach to my main force, a contingent of cavalry hidden in those woods can turn a battle quickly in your favor. If you can wait until you can frontally engage enemy units and tie them down, your cavalry emerges from concealment, wipes out the enemy archers, and now you have the AI army in a vise. Few ever get home to see the wife and kids...

    My favorite map is the Yamato province. Gently rolling terrain, with patches of woods scattered throughout the map, and open spaces between. An ambushers dream even with infantry. Nothing more satisfying than seeing your Teppo suddenly step out of a patch of woods and deliver one or two deadly volleys into the enemy flank or rear...

    I tend to be more methodical on the attack, but even there I utilize Teppo. Big debate on that, as there were players that said it can't be done. All I can say is that many, many times I used my guns to blow gaping holes in enemy infantry lines before sending in the cavalry to mop up...
    Yamato is a really fun map, unfortunately I haven't gotten a chance to play a ton of battles on it. Once I'm pushing through central Japan the remnants of the Oda/Ikko-Ikki war are usually retreating to Ise or Kawachi depending on the direction I'm coming from.

    It sounds like your playstyle can be really fun to watch and I always am down for trying something new so I'll see if I can get better at my cav micro by the time I record my Takeda campaign. I'm just starting to practice with the Mongols so that should hopefully give me some practice...now if only the Hojo would stop running away

    And yes the Teppo can absolutely be used in attack. That's something that my methodical slow march actually shows off quite well

  22. #22
    Senior Member Senior Member ReluctantSamurai's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oda Guide

    ...(was it called Samurai Warlords?). That looks like it kept things alive for a little while longer but without dev support it was always doomed to die.
    Yes, Samurai Warlords. When I get the urge to play Shogun again, it will be the SW version.

    No #key groupings or anything? .....hoooow? You just literally point and clicked your way to cav skirmish dominance?!
    Yep, pretty much... Dunno if that was normal or not, but point-and-draw was my modus opperandi. Had to occasionally hit the pause button on difficult terrain, but the longer I played, the less I needed to do that.

    All true, and good tacticianship. Next time I play a Takeda campaign I'll be recording so I'll see if I can play it like an actual cavalry army next time.
    That'll be fun to watch...

    It sounds like your playstyle can be really fun to watch and I always am down for trying something new so I'll see if I can get better at my cav micro by the time I record my Takeda campaign.
    Bear in mind that my style of play was high-risk, high-reward. When it worked, it was a source of great victories. When it failed....well....you get this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6zQ6ZqEqg0

    In any case, I had A LOT of fun playing that way...

    [edit]

    Found a long lost friend! Going through old boxes of "stuff" and came across a disc with my Shogun .TGA's....woohoo Also has my .TGA's for a Hojo Mongol campaign. Now I can put screenies back into my Nobunaga's Ambition campaign (as soon as I get a new image host). Time to fire up my photo editor and get those TGA's converted to JPEG's.

    Looking at end-of-battle screenshots, it was interesting to see kill/loss ratios, and just how much I really used Cavalry Archers. There were a couple of battles where their combined kills were higher than my Musket....
    Last edited by ReluctantSamurai; 07-19-2021 at 20:52.
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