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Thread: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Others)

  1. #1

    Default Kartvelian Warriors - Сholchians and Caucasian Iberians

    These materials are from Works of archaeologists Gela Gamkrelidze© and Iulon Gagoshidze©

    Last edited by Khevsur; 04-21-2021 at 11:47.

  2. #2

    Lightbulb Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Others)

    Zarrr
    wermez
    Arjos


    I believe you are conscious people. I helped Arjos create Colchians unit. Brenus asked me to create a concept for the Caucasian Iberians unit. I complied with his request.


    Guys please create this warrior.Remove kartvelian horned pagan musician-clowns ,greek helmets and cnemides, black conical hats and iron shields From Black sea coast.

    This is ancient pagan Kartvelian Clown Musicians. this were not helmet.kartvelians not have horned helmets. Please do not make this mistake again https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post16014892

    "Mehomni" this word is not in Modern and old Georgian Languages. Very old Georgian Grammatically correct form is "Meomarni Kartlisani" .Do not make this mistake again.







    Iberian warrior - Meomarni Kartlisani 5th-3rd с BC








    Helmets


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Bronze Plates helmet From Varsimaantkari 5th-4th c BC






    Bronze Plates helmet From Kamarakhevi 5th -4th c BC. Reconstruction from the book archeologist Gela Gamkrelidze










    Plates helmet Silver rhyton from Gomi 1st c BC - 1st c AD



    warriors with Conical helmets - Arts on wine pitchers , From Samadlo 3rd с BC Very similar to Urartian conical Bronze Helmets










    East Georgian Highlanders Traditional hats and Fur leather Clothes


















    Shields

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Bronze 27-30 sm Shield bosses :

    From Varsimaantkari 5th-4th c BC










    From Kamarakhevi 5th-4th c BC





    warriors with round shields - Arts on wine pitchers , From Samadlo 3rd с BC










    Bronze shield boss 2nd c BC from vani . and archaelogist gela gamkrelidze reconstruction


























    Armors

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    hellenistic age Сholch-iberians Bronze(up) and Iron armors(down). Reconstruction from the book archeologist Gela Gamkrelidze












    Swords


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    swords from east and central Georgia 4th-3rd c BC








    Axes

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    Axes from East Georgia 4th-3rd c BC





    Javelins

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    javelins from east georgia 4th-3rd c BC
















    Knives


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    Knives and daggers from East Georgia 4th-3rd c BC



























    clothing


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    6th-4th c BC man figure from vani





    1st c AD Iberian cavalrymans from Dedoflisgora




















    Belts

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    Silver Belt From akhalgori 4th c BC















    Nobles jewellery from East and West Georgia 4th-3rd c BC

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    earringings




    Bracelet




    Bracelet and nickelance




    iberian man necklance of Deity Pig






    Guys, this topic will help you:

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...or-EB-II-2-35A
    Last edited by Khevsur; 04-24-2021 at 13:14.

  3. #3
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    "Mehomni" this word is not in Modern and old Georgian Languages. Very old Georgian Grammatically correct form is "Meomarni Kartlisani" .Do not make this mistake again.
    Пожалуйста докажите

    Ilia Abuladze lists me-hom-e as the oldest attested form. Mind you this is Old Georgian and so 700 years removed from our timeframe...

    Meomarni is modern Georgian roughly 1300 years removed from our start date...

  4. #4

    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjos View Post
    Пожалуйста докажите

    Ilia Abuladze lists me-hom-e as the oldest attested form. Mind you this is Old Georgian and so 700 years removed from our timeframe...

    Meomarni is modern Georgian roughly 1300 years removed from our start date...

    I think you are right . I found it word. I was glad that you are righteous .You are a smart man. I like talking to an educated person





    Did you like my concept? Iberians should be done as guerilla, agressive and Brave , Fast moving.With barbaric visuals and furry skins. Fencing masters. The mountaineers had an ancient fencing school.These are all warriors of the Middle Ages-Shavparosnebi, but the character is understandable
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrGPXoAmpSs



    How about horned helmet? these are ancient bronze clowns figurine - Berikebi
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post16014892



    Shields of Kartvelni Mehomni are from Colchis. shields with two plates are bronze ,is not iron,There is a mistake here . East Georgia found only bronze shield bosses from Varsimaantkari and Kamarakhevi.Strabo notes leather shields of iberians. Iberian mountaineers did not have many iron.Iron was very precious in the mountains.They did not use iron for shields. These metal Shields are large size. In the mountains it is very difficult to fight with a big heavy metal shield.

    Greek Chalcidian helmets and Сnemides are found only in Colchis, Not found in Iberia. Also not visible on images of Iberian horsemens. East Georgia found only bronze plates Helmets in Varsimaantkari and Kamarakhevi. Conical helmets are urartian type, but all are defragmented. warriors from samadlo have conical helmets


    Strabo mentions the traditional fur hats and leather fur vests of the Iberian mountaineers.It’s a simple design that stays the same for centuries . This is a mountain shepherds' clothing. Gray, black, brown and white furry leather clothing will be better. also I think traditional fur hats are better, than conical black hats of fictional design.


    Their knives are Colchian, in Iberia found curved knives



    I think it is better to make the new Colchians and Iberians more beautifully and historically accurately. This is a total of 2 units
    Last edited by Khevsur; 04-21-2021 at 14:56.

  5. #5
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    The current Mehomni, as were concepted, are supposed to represent the assault infantrymen used by Mithradates VI, from the material and area of Kuji. Essentially they are the warrior entourage of the skeptoukhoi/Eristavi of Egrisi, Argveti and Odzrkhe. They are Kartveli, but not from Kartli, though neither they are Margali...

    About the horned helmets, the idea and concept was to represent more religious warriors, among the others. Keeping in mind for example how Xenophon talks about Pyrrhic/military dances, that were used also in Moesia and Mysia (ancient connection to Mushki?), but also among the Mossynoikoi/მოსინიკები, who practiced many public dances. There still are traditions today in the Caucasus, whereby men and women dance with weapons...
    I've read also articles about the Kazbegi statuettes, interpreting them as such martial dances, a couple of figurines being described as two pugilists. That today this carnival-like Berikebi still exist might show how such traditions were powerful and even with Christianity weren't completely removed...

    The Eshera shield model, I agreed also with Zarrr that will be removed, because from Abkhazia and outside of the influence of Kuji...

    I hope you understand and see my interest in showing the Kartvelian culture in the mod, despite the limitations of the game and the number of available units...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjos View Post
    The current Mehomni, as were concepted, are supposed to represent the assault infantrymen used by Mithradates VI, from the material and area of Kuji. Essentially they are the warrior entourage of the skeptoukhoi/Eristavi of Egrisi, Argveti and Odzrkhe. They are Kartveli, but not from Kartli, though neither they are Margali...

    About the horned helmets, the idea and concept was to represent more religious warriors, among the others. Keeping in mind for example how Xenophon talks about Pyrrhic/military dances, that were used also in Moesia and Mysia (ancient connection to Mushki?), but also among the Mossynoikoi/მოსინიკები, who practiced many public dances. There still are traditions today in the Caucasus, whereby men and women dance with weapons...
    I've read also articles about the Kazbegi statuettes, interpreting them as such martial dances, a couple of figurines being described as two pugilists. That today this carnival-like Berikebi still exist might show how such traditions were powerful and even with Christianity weren't completely removed...

    The Eshera shield model, I agreed also with Zarrr that will be removed, because from Abkhazia and outside of the influence of Kuji...

    I hope you understand and see my interest in showing the Kartvelian culture in the mod, despite the limitations of the game and the number of available units...
    I am glad that you are interested in the Kartvelian tribes (Colchians, Iberians, Chalybes, Moschoi and so on)...I have a proposal to create in their place typical and characteristic Caucasian Iberian warriors. They are very often mentioned by Greek historians. Nobody knows what the warriors from Argveti were like as they are not mentioned in the sources. But we know what the Iberian warriors were like. They are often referred and found in archaeological materials in the Iberian mountains and highlands. I created this concept after a personal visit with archaeologist and historian Gela Gamkrelidze https://georgiannationalmuseum.acade...elaGamkrelidze . Let's take out the current outfit and give them the tools according to my concept, for example , what is found in Iberia.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 











    I also suggest that instead of the late Caucasian Cavalry of the late period be Iberian shock Cavalry https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post16015892, which is reflected on the Gaming plate of "Dedoflis Gora" and is described by archaeologist-historian Yulon Gagoshidze. These warriors: Iberian mountaineers and Iberian cavalry played a major role in this region and for the Kingdom of Iberia.


    As for the division between Colchis and Iberian. Back then these people were just one politically divided people and they spoke one Karto -Zan language. Which later disintegrated into Kartli and Egri dialects. Ancient sources explain that Colchis and Moskhi are one family.


    I have this paper for you, if you have not read it, I think you will be very interested in it.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    David Braund - Georgia in Antiquity: A History of Colchis and Transcaucasian Iberia, 550 BC-AD 562


    https://www.mediafire.com/file/74ojf...%2529.pdf/file
    Last edited by Khevsur; 04-23-2021 at 19:59.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    Colchian Warrior 5th-3rd c BC

    The game contains wonderful Hellenistic "heavy" Colchian hoplites , but they don’t have a Colchian atmosphere. So I decided to create the concept of a typical Colchian Tribal warriors according to ancient sources ( Xenophon,Herodotus,strabo, Plutarch) and Colchian archeology. I wanted to create concepts for different types of Colchis warriors: Chalybean Swordsmens, Drilae and Mossynoeci Spearmens and others. But since the Caucasus is very limited in the game, I did a general analysis and created a general look of a Colchian tribal warriors.

    According to Greek historians the Colchian tribes mostly had round small leather shields, Paphlagonian leather helmets, short Spears and Javelin spears, straight swords and Colchian axes. They defended themselves with leather, linen and canvas armor, wore fur vests. They loved martial arts and fought insanely mad.














    These items are from Colchis from the 4th-3rd centuries. The materials are from Gela Gamkrelidze's book -
    Weapons and Armour in Georgia(5th century BC - 4th century AD)

    https://www.academia.edu/36559285/We...tury_AD_I_Part
    https://www.academia.edu/36559253/We...ury_AD_II_Part


    also From the article N.Berulava - Development of Colchian armament in early antiquity and Hellenistic times


    Helmets
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    Colchian tribes wore Paphlagonian leather helmets

    https://www.academia.edu/36593670/Pa...d_2012_229_235





    Colchian hat from colchian Belt from vani 4 th c BC





    Armors

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    Shields

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    Spears
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    Javelins
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    Axes
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    Swords
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    daggers and knives

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    Knives





    daggers 43-45 sm







    accessories

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    Some items are slightly older.

















    silver belt from vani 4 th c BC



    Last edited by Khevsur; 04-24-2021 at 17:40.

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  8. #8
    COYATOYPIKC Senior Member Flatout Minigame Champion Arjos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    As for the division between Colchis and Iberian. Back then these people were just one politically divided people and they spoke one Karto -Zan language. Which later disintegrated into Kartli and Egri dialects. Ancient sources explain that Colchis and Moskhi are one family.
    The Zanuri had already split, linguistically, from the speakers of Kartli, between the 8th-7th centuries BC (Klimov), so already by our time period in the mod they weren't speaking the same language as the people of Parnavaz...

    Which is also why the Kartveli Mehomni I've named them Kartveli, because they aren't Zan speakers, but the entourage of Kuji and successors. Reflected also in new ceramics and funerary rites from the 3rd century BC, with influences from Kartli...
    Last edited by Arjos; 04-26-2021 at 08:05.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjos View Post
    The Zanuri had already split, linguistically, from the speakers of Kartli, between the 8th-7th centuries BC (Klimov), so already by our time period in the mod they weren't speaking the same language as the people of Parnavaz...

    Which is also why the Kartveli Mehomni I've named them Kartveli, because they aren't Zan speakers, but the entourage of Kuji and successors. Reflected also in new ceramics and funerary rites from the 3rd century BC, with influences from Kartli...
    There are different versions about this. According to some scholars, the Karto-Zan language disintegrated into Zanian and Kartlian dialects at of 1st c BC- 1st c AD. Svanian , Zanian and Kartlian dialects had one ancestral language Proto-Kartvelian. This Proto-Kartvelian language was spoken by the Kartvelian population - Colchians , Iberians , Soanes, Moschoi ,Taochi, Saspeires, Chalibes and other Kartvelian tribes.



    I showed you my concepts of Iberian and Colchian warriors. I would be very happy if these beautiful and historically quite accurate warriors would be made into a game. Many Georgians will also see our ancient ancestors and it will be very pleasant for them. If you need help write me and I am ready to help you. Thank you so much for your attention. I appreciate that very much.
    Last edited by Khevsur; 05-03-2021 at 15:45.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    Pontus population was mostly Kartvelian peoples





    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8IWWIaiQqw


    Iberian warriors 5th-3rd c BC
    with helmet from kamarakhevi

    with helmet from varsimaantkari
    Last edited by Khevsur; 05-05-2021 at 01:06.

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  11. #11

    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    Arjos

    Celtic tribes differed from each other. But they were called Celtic tribes. Because they had a common origin and a similar languages. Also, such was the situation in the Germanic tribes.

    It was the same in the Kartvelian tribes. Moschians, Colchians,Mossynoeci , Chalybes, Macrones, Soanes, Iberians and others were Kartvelian Tribes (This term is used by Modern Historians). They had a common origin and their languages were similar to each other. But there were territorial dialectal differences. The word "Kartveli" is a Medieval political term, It originates from "Kartli" region. because of this , Many people are mistaken and he thinks these are different peoples. Please note this fact in the game. Caucasian Iberians were not "Kartvelebi" ,They were "Kartlelebi"- According to the region's name "Kartli", However they were Kartvelian Tribe, As the Colchians, Moschians, Chalybeans, Mossynoeci, Soanes and others Kartvelian tribes .








    this historian and archaeologist has many works about Kartvelian tribes, In many languages


    https://tsu-ge.academia.edu/GiorgiLeonKavtaradze









    https://tsu-ge.academia.edu/mgambashidze


    On the Question of Ethno genesis of Georgian tribes



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Khevsur; 05-30-2021 at 00:49. Reason: I added works

  12. #12

    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    Qartveli Mehome from Mtskheta





    Reconstructions of Georgians from Mtskheta, dated to 400-100BC.
    Original sculptures by Mikhail Gerasimov.

    https://twitter.com/Sulkalmakh

  13. #13

    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    From Kartli III-I BC . Features a horseman with 3 different Eastern styles of helmet and Spears .


    https://www.academia.edu/62826568/IB...OLCHIS_2021_16








    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 











    I put this link in order to stop discussing Kartvelian tribes as different ethnic tribes.Old misconceptions in modern history are rejected

    https://indo-european.info/wiki/index.php/Germanic
    Last edited by Khevsur; 06-03-2022 at 11:05.

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  14. #14

    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    I found some references about Chalybes


    Herodotus(484 – c. 425 BC) : Chalybes had Copper helmet With bull horns and ears, bull leather little shields, two lycian Spears, The legs are wrapped in a dark red cloth.




    Xenophon(430 – c.355 BC) : Chalybes Were very brave warriors.They danced and sang during the battle, They hunted on the heads of the enemy. They had straight iron swords(Colchians have similar swords) , They wore flax armor. Which had flax spinning ropes on the lower side.They had helmets and Calves/Thigh protection . They also had very long and large spears.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    The Minos civilization was founded by Caucasians who migrated from the Cura - Araxes culture. Do you know who the queen of Minos was? Circe - sister of kings of Colchis Aieti . The ancient Greeks directly said that the pre-Hellenic population was Pelasgians,The Greeks always associated the Pelasgians with the Colchian world.


    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo..._Mediterranean

  16. #16

    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    i draw Chalybean Head hunter.Earlier I was against the horns of the Kartvelian warriors. But now I have seen information about Kartvelian Tribe Chalybes ,I think horned helmets are good , It represents Kartvelian culture. But it would be good to add new materials and remove Greek armor.

    Herodotus(484 – c. 425 BC) : Chalybes had Copper helmet With bull horns and ears, bull leather little shields, two lycian Spears, The legs are wrapped in a dark red cloth.


    Xenophon(430 – c.355 BC) : Chalybes Were very brave warriors.They danced and sang during the battle, They hunted on the heads of the enemy. They had straight iron swords(Colchians have similar swords) , They wore flax armor. Which had flax spinning ropes on the lower side.They had helmets and Calves/Thigh protection . They also had very long and large spears.

    Last edited by Khevsur; 12-15-2021 at 00:15.

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  17. #17

    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    Xenophon mentions the Kartvelian tribe on the Black Sea coast, They were the most barbaric tribe they had ever met in Pontus, They lived in tall wooden towers. They were publicly engaged in sex, They acted like crazy. The body was painted with flowers in the sun. They had Paplagonian-like leather helmets, Long- ivy leaf-like, withe color bulls leather covered Shields, Colchian axes, Canvas clothing up to the knees.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossynoeci



    For some reason it looks like a Hittite warrior, part of the Colchian tribes lived in the Hittite Empire. The description of the Colchian tribes often resembles the visual of a Hittite warrior.





  18. #18

    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    Caucasian Iberian (Kartvelian) cavalry I-II c AD



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  19. #19

    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    caucasian warriors has ivy leaf similar leather withe bull shield - art from battle belt
    Last edited by Khevsur; 01-25-2022 at 21:48.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Kartvelian Warriors (Colchians, Caucasian Iberians, Chalybeans, Meskhians and Oth

    Photos from the old uploaded link were deleted .That 's why I uploaded it again

    Colchian V-II century warriors

    ivy leaf similar shield for Colchian Spearmen






























    V-II century Iberian Warriors

    helmets for III-I BC century Iberian Warrior
















    I-II AD century Iberian Cavalry












    Sarmatian Warrior - In the I-III centuries they were hired by the Kingdom of Iberia, so their weapons were also used on the Iberian cavalry



    clothes for iberian and colchian warriors



    Sources and Archeology If you need it, I can re-upload it
    Last edited by Khevsur; 06-03-2022 at 11:41.

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