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Thread: Quo Vadis Labour?

  1. #61
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quo Vadis Labour?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    That is the failing of the system that the UK, along with other countries, have.

    The next chance to vote on the ruling party is a couple of years, and is guarantee. The looser will leave power. That too is close to a guarantee.
    The next chance to vote on the EU might well be whenever, if ever, the government allows it in whatever way they choose to do.

    If the two issues were delinked - which almost any form of proportional representation would allow - that would be great.

    What would also be great would to be less obtuse.

    There won't be any more votes on the EU. None of the parties are campaigning to rejoin. The only question is whether or not people are allowed to question how Brexit is being implemented, but as Furunculus shows, the Tories have it sewn up in terms of identifying with "getting Brexit done" (although we're not allowed to ask questions about how it's being done).

    Eg. the government is talking about invoking article 16 suspending the Northern Ireland protocol, and no doubt their supporters will blame it on the Europeans. The EU blames the UK, of course, and the US has stated that it will be the UK's fault. And there will be Leavers accusing the protocol of being unfair to the Northern Irish. Despite the organisation representing most of NI's manufacturers saying that this is not so, and that they see it as an opportunity (hence good for them), rather than something to go into a trade war over.

    Will it ever be ok to ask why the government is doing this or that? Or will the government be forever be given carte blanche because they are trusted to "get Brexit done"?

  2. #62
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quo Vadis Labour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    There won't be any more votes on the EU. None of the parties are campaigning to rejoin. The only question is whether or not people are allowed to question how Brexit is being implemented, but as Furunculus shows, the Tories have it sewn up in terms of identifying with "getting Brexit done" (although we're not allowed to ask questions about how it's being done).

    Eg. the government is talking about invoking article 16 suspending the Northern Ireland protocol, and no doubt their supporters will blame it on the Europeans. The EU blames the UK, of course, and the US has stated that it will be the UK's fault. And there will be Leavers accusing the protocol of being unfair to the Northern Irish. Despite the organisation representing most of NI's manufacturers saying that this is not so, and that they see it as an opportunity (hence good for them), rather than something to go into a trade war over.

    Will it ever be ok to ask why the government is doing this or that? Or will the government be forever be given carte blanche because they are trusted to "get Brexit done"?
    Never is a long time - as I say, the time since the last one was c. 50 years. Having repeated votes until one gets the right answer is itself a technique that the EU has repeatedly used and I hope we don't follow them (although the SNP appears to view things differently).

    "Getting Brexit done" might well be the strapline Boris et al are going on about but as you've said - it is done. If that's all he can bring to the next election he'll go the way of the Brexit party who had nothing else - unless Brexit isn't done.

    Regards to Northern Ireland I would be delighted for them to be reunified with their compatriots - and indeed for Scotland to be given the freedom to leave as well. For most remainers that means I can't be called a nostalgic Nationalist dreaming of Empire, but instead of Xenophobe - as what else could I be?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  3. #63
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quo Vadis Labour?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Never is a long time - as I say, the time since the last one was c. 50 years. Having repeated votes until one gets the right answer is itself a technique that the EU has repeatedly used and I hope we don't follow them (although the SNP appears to view things differently).

    "Getting Brexit done" might well be the strapline Boris et al are going on about but as you've said - it is done. If that's all he can bring to the next election he'll go the way of the Brexit party who had nothing else - unless Brexit isn't done.

    Regards to Northern Ireland I would be delighted for them to be reunified with their compatriots - and indeed for Scotland to be given the freedom to leave as well. For most remainers that means I can't be called a nostalgic Nationalist dreaming of Empire, but instead of Xenophobe - as what else could I be?

    You've seen with Furunculus that the Tories still retain their appeal on the basis of getting Brexit done, with the other parties holding no appeal on this sole basis. The Tory government is still periodically stirring up a fight with the EU to keep this issue current, such as complaining about an unfair Northern Ireland protocol that they signed up to and that the Northern Irish themselves don't think is bad. Note how their line of attack has nothing to do with whether or not the people they are claiming for actually support them, but is aimed to keep the EU as a current scapegoat despite us being divorced from them. Note also how this position alienates everyone outside the UK. And note also how this position keeps the supporters of Brexit onside and voting Tory (eg. Furunculus's posts, the polls, etc.).

    Brexit is no longer about economic opportunity, ideological differences, or anything of that sort (if they ever were). It's now an identity for the Tories to play on to retain a rump support amongst the UK electorate. And thus no metrics, no arguments, are relevant any more, other than the poll numbers. And all other issues are subordinate to this, since it so effectively wins votes.

  4. #64
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quo Vadis Labour?

    Yes, perhaps it is me. I am projecting myself on others.

    I quite like Kier. I like his long, considered essays on subjects as opposed to the moron we have in charge who apparently neither read the Northern Ireland agreement nor even managed to get someone more competent than he is to give him a "Jane and John" precis. Kier is even trying to make his party electable by trying to jettison the wacky left ideologues (and if they could take the incompetent, hypocrite who is Ms Abbot with them that'd be great). I doubt I agree with everything he would wish to do - but at least he would have a cogent, and probably logical approach to why he is doing it.

    The Northern Ireland agreement was always going to be impossible to sort out given there needs to both be and not be a border in two different places with Northern Ireland wanting to trade and free access to the South and also trade and free access to the rest of the UK - a classic childish demand for "both" when given two different, diametrically opposite, options...

    Brexit could only be an economic opportunity if one looks back decades - and if some pretty lucky things happen - if the UK is able to more agile with trade deals or manage to keep out the way of trade disputes the EU has with other power blocks. If these two things happen.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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  5. #65
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quo Vadis Labour?

    And the deputy PM's mate was given £164m in PPE contracts after being referred by said minister to the preferential list. £60k in donations to the Tory party produces £164m in contracts. Funding the Tory party must be the most profitable investment around.

    All this corruption still won't make any difference of course. Tory voters will still vote based on that one issue.

  6. #66
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quo Vadis Labour?

    The minutes for a meeting between the minister in charge of handing out covid-related contracts, a firm which received a contract, and an MP who consulted for said firm and who recently resigned after being censured by the Commons for corruption, have been "lost". The contract was worth £600m.

    Is there any accountability for all of this? There's no literal accountability of course, as the government have been careful to cover their tracks, but voters are supposed to care about what happens to our tax money. Or is the odd billion here and there handed out to Tory MPs' friends ok, as long as they are pro-Brexit?

  7. #67
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quo Vadis Labour?

    My name is getting slung about quite a lot here.

    It is worth pointing out for the edification of all, should that be necessary:
    1. I was never a 'kipper' - my position has been consistently skeptic, not leaver, right up until the end of the renegotiation in Jan 2016.
    2. I am not a 'tory' - my position is economically right wing and classically liberal, which makes it v.hard for any left-wing/identitarian party to appeal to me.
    3. I am not a 'single-issue' voter - quite aside from economic and social policy, i hope it would be evident after all these years that defence and FP is a key interest too.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 11-22-2021 at 16:31.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  8. #68
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quo Vadis Labour?

    HMRC to relocate to Newcastle office owned by Tory donors via tax haven

    HM Revenue and Customs has struck a deal to relocate tax officials into a new office complex in Newcastle owned by major Conservative party donors through an offshore company based in a tax haven, the Guardian can reveal.

    The department’s planned new home in the north-east of England is part of a regeneration scheme developed by a British Virgin Islands (BVI) entity controlled by the billionaire property tycoons David and Simon Reuben.

    The deal will see officials at the government department responsible for preventing tax avoidance working from a site owned by a subsidiary of a company based in a secretive offshore tax jurisdiction.

    The Reuben brothers, their family members and businesses have donated a combined £1.9m to the Tories. Earlier this week, the brothers are reported to have shared a table with Boris Johnson at an exclusive Tory party fundraising dinner.

    On Tuesday, officials including the Cabinet Office minister Steve Barclay announced HMRC had agreed the 25-year lease with one of the Reuben brothers’ companies.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-via-tax-haven

    Corruption doesn't get much more blatant than this. But it's all ok. They won an election under the aegis of "Get Brexit done", so everything is justified by that mandate.

  9. #69
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quo Vadis Labour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    HMRC to relocate to Newcastle office owned by Tory donors via tax haven



    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-via-tax-haven

    Corruption doesn't get much more blatant than this. But it's all ok. They won an election under the aegis of "Get Brexit done", so everything is justified by that mandate.
    Has this been rented above market rates? Has the building been vacant for years with no one wanting to rent it? Was this hidden? How was the decision made? Did ministers overrule Civil Servants?

    I'm struggling to see exactly what bit is the corruption here. Apparently there's nothing illegal either. And one has to be pretty confident to rent to HMRC if one is playing fast and loose with the details.

    The article itself is a whine about the nasty rich people whilst reluctantly stating there's nothing that is illegal here.

    Boris and his chums are neck deep in dubious deals - from borderline illegal lobbying by ex-PMs, to giving one's chums paid for access to contracts to mates who clearly can't do them. But this isn't one of them.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  10. #70
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quo Vadis Labour?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Has this been rented above market rates? Has the building been vacant for years with no one wanting to rent it? Was this hidden? How was the decision made? Did ministers overrule Civil Servants?

    I'm struggling to see exactly what bit is the corruption here. Apparently there's nothing illegal either. And one has to be pretty confident to rent to HMRC if one is playing fast and loose with the details.

    The article itself is a whine about the nasty rich people whilst reluctantly stating there's nothing that is illegal here.

    Boris and his chums are neck deep in dubious deals - from borderline illegal lobbying by ex-PMs, to giving one's chums paid for access to contracts to mates who clearly can't do them. But this isn't one of them.

    I accept correction. But I frequently wonder just how much the evidence of other corruption and incompetence will factor into any election. Johnson refused to be interviewed during the 2019 election. Unlike the Yes PM episode where an accidental untruth has Hacker worrying about his job, Johnson routinely lies in every interview and PMQ. There is little cloaking of money for friends and associates. Yet he won a landslide on nothing more than a single slogan, and the Tories continue to lead in polls.

    I used to believe in process, where there was an underlying sense of propriety across the spectrum, and any wrongdoing was self-regulated to within a limited range. But Trump across the river, and the Brexit-Tory politics on this side, have made me lose confidence in democracy. As long as the media back one side, and Johnson's former masters never fail to back him and his mates, the politicians can do anything they like, and the voters continue to support them. At least in the US there seems to be some kind of entente against Trump's extremism. There is nothing of the sort here.

  11. #71

    Default Re: Quo Vadis Labour?

    You keep addressing "democracy" - and without registering rory's points about electoral process - yet the Tories won less than 44% of the vote in 2019 (less than Trump in the US), and their approval rating has generally been in the low 40s or high 30s since. It would help your mood to consider your complaint more precisely.
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  12. #72
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quo Vadis Labour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I frequently wonder just how much the evidence of other corruption and incompetence will factor into any election. Johnson refused to be interviewed during the 2019 election. Unlike the Yes PM episode where an accidental untruth has Hacker worrying about his job, Johnson routinely lies in every interview and PMQ. There is little cloaking of money for friends and associates. Yet he won a landslide on nothing more than a single slogan, and the Tories continue to lead in polls.
    you appear to fixate on the flaws of the electorate in refusing to acknowledge the inadequacy of the tory party (read: cronyism and/or corruption), so I would instead invite you to consider another alternative:

    the electorate does not perceive itself as having one! an "alternative", that is.
    e.g. these 'anomalous' electoral outcomes might be more to do with the shear Olympian edifice of labour's un-electability, than it has to do with the peoples' Nelson'ian indifference to tory flaws.

    labour may have fronted Captain Hindsight as a deliberately grey and dull 'manager' but way too many people are intensely aware of the frothing lunacy of the activist base roiling beneath the surface of the (new) Labour offer...
    Last edited by Furunculus; 11-28-2021 at 11:08.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  13. #73
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quo Vadis Labour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    You keep addressing "democracy" - and without registering rory's points about electoral process - yet the Tories won less than 44% of the vote in 2019 (less than Trump in the US), and their approval rating has generally been in the low 40s or high 30s since. It would help your mood to consider your complaint more precisely.
    The Tories have a majority approaching 100 in the Commons. That's what matters, not a vote share of 44% (which is still far more than anyone else). That means they can have 40 MPs voting with the opposition and still pass absolutely any legislation they like. Unlike your constitution, there are few legal limits to what the Commons can pass, only customary ones. And as past (Tory) PMs and ministers have noted, this government has little regard for customary limits, and are inclined to pass Laws to restrict traditional freedoms that have been part of the foundations of our democracy.

    You've been fuming about 2 Democratic senators who have been regularly voting with the Republicans. The Tories can have 40 of these rebels, and it still won't make any difference to their Law-passing capability. A majority of 1 (they have over 80) gives them the power to do anything they like. Including passing a Law to retroactively exonerate a mate of theirs (who was voting for this Law) from condemnation for corruption.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Quo Vadis Labour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Tories have a majority approaching 100 in the Commons. That's what matters, not a vote share of 44% (which is still far more than anyone else). That means they can have 40 MPs voting with the opposition and still pass absolutely any legislation they like. Unlike your constitution, there are few legal limits to what the Commons can pass, only customary ones. And as past (Tory) PMs and ministers have noted, this government has little regard for customary limits, and are inclined to pass Laws to restrict traditional freedoms that have been part of the foundations of our democracy.

    You've been fuming about 2 Democratic senators who have been regularly voting with the Republicans. The Tories can have 40 of these rebels, and it still won't make any difference to their Law-passing capability. A majority of 1 (they have over 80) gives them the power to do anything they like. Including passing a Law to retroactively exonerate a mate of theirs (who was voting for this Law) from condemnation for corruption.
    All of this is true, but what needs to be expressed is that your consternation centers the character of your opposition, or even the inadequate reaction of the broader society towards them, not democracy per se. Admittedly, I was being imprecise myself, in that your mood might well worsen when you look at it that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    you appear to fixate on the flaws of the electorate in refusing to acknowledge the inadequacy of the tory party (read: cronyism and/or corruption), so I would instead invite you to consider another alternative:

    the electorate does not perceive itself as having one! an "alternative", that is.
    e.g. these 'anomalous' electoral outcomes might be more to do with the shear Olympian edifice of labour's un-electability, than it has to do with the peoples' Nelson'ian indifference to tory flaws.

    labour may have fronted Captain Hindsight as a deliberately grey and dull 'manager' but way too many people are intensely aware of the frothing lunacy of the activist base roiling beneath the surface of the (new) Labour offer...
    Leaving aside the electoral math is more complicated than you let on, that is still a choice you describe, and one that reflects on its proponents.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 11-28-2021 at 23:01.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  15. #75
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Quo Vadis Labour?

    A lot parsed into that sentence, so without trying to reductio-ad-absurdum it I will break it down to explore:

    "Leaving aside the electoral math is more complicated than you let on,"

    More complicated, as in they have more choices that simply voting tory or labour?
    I agree, but the UK electorate is rather conditioned to seek a 'common-ground' party appealing across the geographic and political divide. Party's with niche interests can appeal to only a small niche of the electorate.

    "[but] that is still a choice you describe, and one that reflects on its proponents."

    Who is the proponent here?
    I do not speak for Labour voters.

    And how does it reflect upon them [badly]?
    They seem unable to choose labour in any positive way.
    They appear unable to choose labour even in a negative way - holding their noses.
    Is the lack of popular appeal for Labour a reflection on the electorate or the party...
    Last edited by Furunculus; 11-29-2021 at 18:54.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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