Sorceror 17er Game Thread

[Sleep]

post it anyway

i have 2 things and theyre only half-written, was kinda trying to trace the dobby/hk argument

do you still really wanna see it?

[katze]

i have 2 things and theyre only half-written, was kinda trying to trace the dobby/hk argument

do you still really wanna see it?

ya kinda

idrc if you don't believe in it anymore it can still be helpful for solving (mostly solving you itc)

[Sleep]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I saw a comment last night too from hk about me "not playing" or something which is kinda lol, Day 2 I was pretty much top posting, it's a weird approach from the one I pushed the hardest, I wasn't really discrete about it

no, I said you were so unmemorable it is like you're not playing.

Thats on you cuz I think I've been all over the game lol

sure.

I'll read your ISO dobby and let you know what I think of you.

@Dobby Why are you town?
Like what's your claim to fame here

Can I throw it back at you and ask what things could point towards me being town if you like squint or whatever if you can't find anything? Halp me get into your head

I'm really happy with the way I've played this game. Most of my posts have been to try and like see what people's motivations are to doing what they do, howuch solving they're doing etc. And I'm not playing it safe, I think I'm pretty good at imitating toengame as wolf so it's hard for me to point at anything that stands out really because if there was something I'd actively work on removing that difference tbh, but I really want to say I know what to do as wolf, to look towny. I kinda know how to post to be safe enough that I'm consistently middle of the pack so I can get to endgame without it looking weird etc.

I also believe in the cases I've made, I've reevaluate a lot of my reads and actually followed up on the things I've written and I think my genuine will to solve is showing rather than it just being.. faked?

Idk it's not an easy question to answer and it kinda sounds like I'm honking my own horn here but just trying to keep it as real and honest as possible

so they have this exchange, they're kind of throwing jabs at each other, expressing suspicion of one another. hk comes back to deliver this wall:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Why Dobby could be town, an exercise in expanding my mind:

1. It's pretty early to sus on Ladd here but Dobby does it. No wolf at this point is super concerned with positioning nor is there any kind of indication that Ladd could potentially be at risk here. While it's a safe position for a wolf to take, drawing attention to the position by including it as one of only four stated positions I think is risky. Ladd would need to go over quickly (basically D1) for the read to not look like TMI


unfortunately this is it.

I've gone through the rest of your ISO and frankly I'd kill you for it. It's not super great. Like the post I'm replying to and the post I quoted above are your towniest posts to me. The rest are kinda meh with quite a few "wtf" thrown in there, specifically when addressing me/your read on me.

Like these:





I left the bold in there b/c I have no idea how you arrive at that conclusion, but the main thing I want to point out are your thoughts on my post here. It's nothing but word salad designed to look smart while not actually saying anything other than, in a nut shell, "this is a post I dobby can make as a wolf therefore it can be from a wolf"

And this is the "extensive post about my reasoning" that you've referenced above







None of these posts are good tbh. newcomb was townie enough that he really shouldn't have been run up at all. Raskol sure, I'll buy that. I thought Rask had wolf potential headed into today as well. I think I've been obvs town, your mileage varies.

I feel like the last post quoted here is something I see quite a bit from wolves in general. Basically taking the position of "I don't really want either of these wagons but if I have to choose I'll take X" where X more often than not is a partner.



dolby flips wolf, I put pressure on monstr D1, you literally do not acknowledge that pressure nor address how I could be partnered with either dolby (who said I could be town) / monstr (who did not acknowledge my existence).

There's also this, which is just not true:


We're in D2 currently, you're not top posting. You weren't top posting D1. Even by vv lax definitions of top posting you're still (checks the ISO list) in the bottom half of post counts. It's whatever though, I don't expect total accuracy, just thought this was interesting to point out.

Then today is just a continuation of yesterday


Where's re-evaluations? Where's "maybe I'm wrong, I was wrong on monstr/dolby, I didn't want to participate in Ladd and that was wrong, maybe my reads aren't the greatest and I should stop and think"?

I have more respect for your game than to assume you're lost townie here basically.

anyways, vote: dobby might as well put my money where my mouth is.

this is...a post. the problem is it's trying to dumpster dobby with basic things like "you had incorrect reads on mafia so you are scum" and "you said you are top posting but you are not". thats...not really how finding scum works, its too basic, its a reductive argument, but its one ive pulled out when playing as mafia to justify a push.

here is dobbys rebuttal:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1) irl day 2, second half of d1 of that helps.

2) cool ty for doing that. It takes a lot for me to ever be top posting and even if im in thread q full day I'm not st the top

3) my read on monstr was based on a few things but also things I don't want/shouldn't talk about. I didn't think he'd tilt and react like that as wolf ever but obviously I was wrong.

4) associative reads or whatever it's called often turn out wrong at least for me so yeah even though j might do it at some point that wasn't anything I found useful to do

5) dolby tried to push me didn't he? I might be wrong about that

6) the "I didn't want to participate in ladd" is just wrong. I had sus on him throughout but I preferred you/rask at eod which I was very clear about. When I saw the wagons last minute after the shifts I was pretty clear about preferring ladd over newcom. I did suggest newcomb get the bomb because of his potential to be town and if so he'd be the best one to have the bomb. I don't think that reasoning was weird but apparently it was. And saying I don't prefer ladd/newcomb to you isn't weird when I still find it likelier for you to be wolf than the rest of the playerlist. Can't know if I'm wrong til you die, right? :)

Re reevaluations - I'm trying to actually take things that show up in consideration and have changed my reads based on that, for example on sleep that I pushed really hard early on and then got pretty convinced that he's town.

7) I wrote about your push on... I think it was ender, cba looking up, and how it didn't make sense, don't believe you've explained that part and it's one of the main reasons I still have my doubts on you.

8) saying I'm lost this game is extremely exaggerated just because I'm pushing you and was wrong on monstr. You're not helping me change my mind tbh

9) omgus? :p would you sus me if I didn't push you?

A fair bit of what you wrote there is straight up wrong or intentional misinterpretations of what I wrote and yeah it doesn't help in finding you town at all.

(i stopped here because i lost the thread of the argument and the followup posts made me less sure plus that cape post just felt so achingly fake)

[Sleep]

then i was writing this and changed my mind and didnt finish and stuck it in my drafts:

dunno i think i kind of find the de-escalation from hk on dobby suspicious still in that it feels like its establishing a pocket:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

like ideally we chop a wolf today. the next best thing after that would be removing someone from the POE via the chop.
I'd like to not die but if I'm going to, and I think dobby + vest = dead HK we might as well do me today and give dobby the vest for tomorrow instead of chopping "random town" today and having dobby blow me up tomorrow.

That's the line of thinking that got me there.

Ngl I've loved your posting and wim last couple of hours if that makes you feel any better. Like, it makes more sense than the.... fake case you made about me but this wim and stuff feels very towny in isolation if we skip anything before today's discussions. Granted I don't know your style but ye you're not my priority aorn

honestly same. I like today dobby a lot more than I liked ISO dobby

but idk. ive mentally biased myself to see

[Sleep]

i tried to multiquote a bunch of posts and apparently theres a limit and now i have to go back and manually clear them lol

forum software not meant for playing this dumb nerd game

[katze]

is it a limit i thought the forum just kept breaking on me earlier and im already pretty used to sticking quotes in a notepad to format posts better so it wasnt thaaaat hard to get around. the posts should unquote after a post or two

also acknowledged the posts, kinda trying to relax so i don't want to process it all rn. or rly play mafia. just kinda here cause i had the tab open :wowee:

[Sleep]

OTOH this at the start of the game is what pinged me on a reread:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

this is guaranteed to bite me in the ass but katze has too many votes too quickly and therefore is town.
Ender otoh is not.
vote: ender

Yeah I can. He feels stilted, like his content is forced, and that he's struggling to get into the groove of the game.
I tend to ego solve and compare what people are doing to what I'd be doing in their positions. This would tangentially apply to cape as well tbh:
If I were a wolf in this player list I'd be extremely concerned with making the towniest posts I could make and trying to fit in with the overall flow of the game so as not to get caught out immediately. Unfortunately when I do that I tend to be really obvs a wolf as I'm basically trying too hard. Ender (and Cape) feel like they're trying too hard.

The downside to ego solving is that other people are not me (I know, this is a shocking revelation) and don't necessarily react to things the same way I would. This isn't stopping me from making the read.



And before someone asks, my "no chop" vote is totally legit. This is a player list I am going to struggle to read and seeing who dies over night if we don't chop anyone might help in solving. Otherwise I'm likely going to just sheep someone I town read that I perceive is smarter than I am, or be on some weird vanity wagon at the end of the day.
So I figured I'd throw out not chopping as an option, see what people think of that, and go from there.

and yeah I'm being serious

Spicy take

I don't think anyone's been villagy

feels like spicy for the sake of spicy

in my defense I have not read the setup at all but judging by this reaction my idea is stupid af.
gonna go back to killing ender then, I think they could use some "hey do something townie" pressure

vote: ender

I think this take applies to all their posts tbh

vote: monster

some time tonight I'm gonna put together a reads list. I think monster belongs at the bottom of it.

Suddenly there are pages.

Hi Ender are you town?

Yes.

I just want it said I don't like this post.

I'm going to point out that last time I was actually wolf with you (Hello remember when I literally cased you and got you voted out and I was red?) I was townread and no one thought I was struggling to get into thread.

This honestly feels a VERY weird take on me given that the game I'm talking about was the last time HK and I played together. For him to seriously believe I would struggle to get my groove on as wolf is...

Kinda honestly wolfy.

I don't believe you

Well shucks.

ok, so what gives then? Why does it seem like this game is harder to get into for you?
If you're villager shitposting and tossing off ideas should be fairly straightforward.

The unspoken part of that read I made on you is that this player list is vastly different than that player list and I also did say I was ego solving there and I would struggle as wolf to get established in this list.

You dumpstered me last game, hard, and of course I'm going to be wary of you in this game because of that.

Go be town and do townie things and I'll call you town. Till then I won't.

ikr, soz.

outside of me who else do you think is sus? maybe we can talk and I'll change my mind.

I was having fun memeing at the start so unless you're talking about the sharp gear change on ben idk what you're talking about harder to get into.

Uh lemme parse my thoughts into lists.

I dislike Ladd's treatment of me particularly. The read on me (The whole "Backwards quoting" thing) feels entirely forced and also liiiike, unrealistic.

Raskol is obvious scum because of his lack of posts.

Sunbae I was leaning townish but the whole Monstr/Cuth read feels like he realised he fucked up and backed up. Pending explanation that makes my brain do the good wobly jelly I'm going to stare at him.

Monstr feels weaksauce.

I was townreading Cape but the whole Sleep thing is making me wonder.

maybe it was that I didn't think your memes were funny.
Your first 10 or so posts are the ones I felt were "off", and that off-ness I read as "difficulty trying to get into the game"

After that you do improve so meh

cool I can work with that.

Ok, I think sunbae is town. I think I might be the only person who thinks that but i found their early game posting very free flowing and natural. His early posts regarding the suicide bomber felt townie to me in terms of "lets do something bombastic and then relax in dvc for the rest of the game" vs "do the hard work of solving, staying alive, and pushing people".

I get that can also be read as wolfy, I think it's not though.
I also like, and jibe with, the "shield dobby d1" post he made for basically the reasons he articulated. Dobby can be super strong but also can just kinda fold to early pressure even as town, and if dobby is town he'd be an asset for sure (not like this is saying much, the entire thread is an asset tbh).

even if sunbae is wrong here:

it doesn't mean it's not a town way of thinking about things. If sun was doing hard pushes on cape maybe I'd have a different opinion but this reads like a "hey I noticed a thing, anyone else notice a thing" more than a hard push.

I officially rescind my N0 red on Raskol and want to keep him alive for today. I think he's a super easy push for later today b/c he's not posted and he'll likely struggle to catch up if/when he does start posting, but being absent is not a wolf tell for Raskol.
Being a meme filled pockety jerk is though. Just fyi.

I have no read on Ladd but probably should come up with something. Cuth I think can be town, Monstr I think can be a wolf. Mostly b/c his ISO sucks a lot and by sucks a lot I mean it is entirely too short AND filled with things that read like they're spicy for the sake of being spicy, not actually things he believes in.

Well.

I found me funny.

This isn't a real thought it was one post

vote: hollowkat

I said what I meant and meant what I said.

this was a big chunk iof hks early game content. the ender argument on a reread feels weak? the thing that bothered me the most is the line i bolded in there. it feels like hes looking for an excuse to stop voting ender and start voting someone else. for two people calling each other wolfy theyre being...diplomatic about it.

the monstr stuff is just, like, "spicy for the sake of being spicy" is kind of a wack response to something that was said sardonically and monstr biting back at him feels distance-y as well


possible im overthinking it but this stuff i found suspicious on a look back

[Sleep]

anyway im having fun surprisingly!

good night

[hollowkatt]

I think monstr made that post because his content thus far sucked. So he tried a pretty traditionally wolfy way of looking engaged and solving.
I called his bluff and all he did was get mad and vote me.

[katze]

oops forgor to check back in this sites lack of emoji support is tragic

mmmm.

brain is kinda. niarb. eim(m).

i feel like no matter what i do the end of day is going to be me being really nervous and scared and the thought of that is making me nervous and scared

am i still voting sleep? idk

vote: unvote for posterity, or something. this isn't me saying i townread them or anything it's just i wanted to Apply A Vote Outside Of Cape for a bit.

i feel like i should have more to say but i kinda just don't

like, i asked sleep to post their incomplete posts and then read it and it was kinda just words to me. i wanna call it kinda villagery but idk if i can.

i havent read the entirety of D2 but im rereading around the EoD rn before i close the thread so i have some more juices to marinate in my head

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

and like. theres some posts by ender/cape that i look at and im like "dude, cape is a villager. it's so fucking clear, ender doesn't care about who dies." and "cape literally has no clue whats going on lol"

and then i see shit like

Vote: Newcomb

I honestly feel like joining this and providing a juicy counterwagon, now I wanna compare Mont since I know it's kinda easy to sus them for their latest posting musings which I also found quite wolfy and made me wanna plant.

But I am starting to think this is a good push and I wanna revisit some of Mont's walls

I think I like katze's post responding to me and think it makes a good point

and then remember that cape thought this was a case on ender??? and then im like "what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what what"

then you've got this right after

Ender: "After long debate and strenuous thought, I think Newcomb might actually be town."

Also Ender:
Vote: Newcomb

Ehhhhhhh actually fuck

Vote: Cape

I still feel pretty good about my whole "Unnecessary action" read around Neb/Newcomb ><

and im like

what the fuck are these hooligans doing and my brain feels like it's easily naturally pairing the two together because they're really doing the same thing

Vote: Montmorency

I kinda don't have a lot of time to mull over everything

but I have the feeling that if Newcomb is a wolf, they created some very strange reasons to both townread and wolfread people that feels less cut and dry then... actually most of everyone in the game which does show a certain level of foresight on their end. Even if I feel like some of the content has been a little wobbly from that wall

since cape goes on to vote off of newcomb right after

honestly i don't know if i understand the read in that post i just quoted but if it means what i think it means it might actually be p villagery

I feel like you have been soft defending me

any reasons really behind this?

I feel like you have barely engaged with my content

but this feels wolfy to me though and it kinda feels like a post a wolf would write to kinda trap someone in the last few minutes of the day, either to stumble them or to give indecisive villagers a nice flashy post that looks bad for a player whos PoEd

the problem with that world is ender is voting cape

2113

Players Votes

Montmorency 4 (Newcomb, zack, Raskolnikov, Cape90)
Cape90 3 (nebjiamn, Sleep, EnderWiggin)
Newcomb 2 (Montmorency, katze)
EnderWiggin 1 (Dobby)
Cuthillius 1 (hollowkatt)
katze 1 (Cuthillius)

and like, my brain sees that cape post as a plausible desperate-to-survive wolf post... while their teammate is on them? that just feels weird. it doesn't really make that much sense.

Vote: Newcomb

fine

if I die, I think Ender should be at least double checked, like where they at?

and then cape swaps back to newcomb (to which HK quickly follows, timestamps are a minute apart but iirc these votes were pretty close so ill assume it was a crosspost)

Players Votes

Newcomb 4 (Montmorency, hollowkatt, katze, Cape90)
Montmorency 3 (Newcomb, zack, Raskolnikov)
Cape90 3 (nebjiamn, Sleep, EnderWiggin)
katze 1 (Cuthillius)
EnderWiggin 2 (Dobby, Sunbae)


tally correct, ordering isnt

which brings us here again

I'm 100% vesting dobby

i kinda dont want that vest

which means its probably good lol

also this post is kinda thonk but i dont want to overthink it

...this post is turning into "me rambling about EoD2" now huh. okay well i still don't know what this means because i think capes eod2 is kinda wolfy but also enders eod2 alongside capes feels... weird to be aligned?

food for thought, i guess

i can't say capes posting today has been inspiring and i want it to be cape but i can't say with good faith that my confidence in w!cape is the same as it was yesterday (game, not irl)

spoiled the above because this post accidentally became way longer than intended

gn

[Visor]

Players Votes

Cape90 1 (Dobby)
hollowkatt 1 (Sleep)


believe this is correct

[Sleep]

im mulling over those posts and yeah its uh

strange

ender voting newcomb to get momentum there and then pulling it back to cape is strange

because...why would he do that to a partner??


otoh...why would he do it to a villager??

the short answer is probably he just did crazy things to mess with us and futz up associations and reading into it too deeply is going to drain your sanity meter

[Sleep]

on the other hand

Cape90 3 (nebjiamn, Sleep, EnderWiggin)

[Sleep]

and yea im kinda lost on what cape is doing today

[Sleep]

i saw that post and your monty push

you don't really push lhf like you did monty as a villager ime, in fact I think 1 of yours (and visor actually) biggest villa tells is that you tend to see the "what if they are a vilager angle" of the so called easy mislunches, like you are doing with cape for example (regardless of whether or not he is a villager)

...

[Sleep]

2) i am saying your push on cape is wolfy, cape is a thin villa lean for me. the 2 things can cohexist

...

[Sleep]

vote: cape

i cracked

[Sleep]

i am calm. i am normal.

[Dobby]

Hi have not had a good morning (yes it's 7pm and my day is maybe starting now) but ill try to be here last hours of the day. I have barely skimmed the posts today but ill put some effort into it after I come back from my parents

[Dobby]

As in I'll try to reread hk

I think me letting g go of my push there was at first "okay I'll try to play this as if I see hk as town" and then it was combined with a lot of people Expressing good stuff on him so I was like "okay iwas probably tunneled"

But yeah I should reassess both hk and you. And katze as well for that matter. I'll probably be selective in what I choose to read but if you want to point t me towards anything you feel is significant please do (and with a ping so I can find it)

[Sleep]

i quoted some stuff from it, in particular the early game with ender concerned me

but as i read more in your argument i figured you might be right after all. and i when i refreshed myself on how the wolves ACTUALLY TALKED about cape vs how they talked about katze or hk, it made a lot more sense. the defenses of cape were...qualified. it didnt have the same confidence as with hk

[Sleep]

also iunno kinda buying his selfmeta here even if thats fakeable

[Sleep]

i should maybe give a little narration to my solving process here so maybe itll help:

generally the way things go is, i look at the game,i form reads in my head, and then i throw something out there. the words to explain it come AFTER i have the read. and so what happened is i reread hollowkatt at the start of the day and got suspicious of some stuff and threw my vote out there. it was a feeling.

but then when i went back to try to actually put words to it...it felt like i was forcing the case? the feelings in my head didnt really translate to tangible thoughts that looked good. so i began to doubt my read there, cuz if i cant put good words to it it probably means theres a flaw in my thinking and its not actually right. thats what happened here.

[Dobby]

i should maybe give a little narration to my solving process here so maybe itll help:

generally the way things go is, i look at the game,i form reads in my head, and then i throw something out there. the words to explain it come AFTER i have the read. and so what happened is i reread hollowkatt at the start of the day and got suspicious of some stuff and threw my vote out there. it was a feeling.

but then when i went back to try to actually put words to it...it felt like i was forcing the case? the feelings in my head didnt really translate to tangible thoughts that looked good. so i began to doubt my read there, cuz if i cant put good words to it it probably means theres a flaw in my thinking and its not actually right. thats what happened here.

I've kinda done the same tbh and it's how I often approach mafia games tbh. I've had problems with tunneling so I'm trying my best to go like, wait I need to chill, as the hk situation for one. Let's pretend hk is town, and then I just go into a role where I think hk is town and reread and try to do it with a new pair of eyes tbh. If it works that's cool and I chill a bit on that front, if not, I go back to the tunnel and my casing is like, why did I go back here lol

It's what I tried the other day, and katze got a lot of + and cape got a lot of -. I did have some doubts with cuth so I can't really say I was fighting that yeet but yeah

The forcing the case thing is very relatable but it's very hard to identify when you've crossed the line tbh.

I also tend to like, exaggerate stuff I notic/see in my head. Especially with time. And then I go back and I can only find one or two posts that strengthen my read and am like oops. I'd say it's often enough, but to convey to others why I feel strongly about it is way harder

[Dobby]

i quoted some stuff from it, in particular the early game with ender concerned me

but as i read more in your argument i figured you might be right after all. and i when i refreshed myself on how the wolves ACTUALLY TALKED about cape vs how they talked about katze or hk, it made a lot more sense. the defenses of cape were...qualified. it didnt have the same confidence as with hk

Oh and glad to hear this tbh

[Dobby]

One more thing

I just wanted to explain my attitude the other dya. I felt like you went into the day kinda demoralised? And like, "idc ill do what I want to and if it doesn't work out tough luck" and it kinda put me off the whole game combined with a whiny mood in general, because it felt like a recipe for bad things. I realise I got it wrong (at least to some extent, or more lol) but seeing the posts today brought back my wim and then some. I know a f3 dituation will mean other people's reads will matter very little for the ones in it but I think anything but me dying would be really weird here (kekw see you in f3) so I want to at least try to like, convey what I see, not saying its better than anyone else's reads at all but just, adding a viewpoint to someone's total picture of stuff would be a win tbh (even if imnwrong,,,)

[Sleep]

One more thing

I just wanted to explain my attitude the other dya. I felt like you went into the day kinda demoralised? And like, "idc ill do what I want to and if it doesn't work out tough luck" and it kinda put me off the whole game combined with a whiny mood in general, because it felt like a recipe for bad things. I realise I got it wrong (at least to some extent, or more lol) but seeing the posts today brought back my wim and then some. I know a f3 dituation will mean other people's reads will matter very little for the ones in it but I think anything but me dying would be really weird here (kekw see you in f3) so I want to at least try to like, convey what I see, not saying its better than anyone else's reads at all but just, adding a viewpoint to someone's total picture of stuff would be a win tbh (even if imnwrong,,,)

oh sorry lol

i WAS demoralized but i was kind of trying to not let it make me just completely give up and i wanted to do something different with my thinking rather than psyching myself out? the thing is i tend to get paranoid and choke a lot in endgames and my feeling was "oh no i ont want this to happen again"

but i think im in a better headspace now because i just decided, you know what, im just gonna try and if it doesnt work out thats ok

[katze]

nya

we're gonna vote wrong today and then im gonna die overnight

[katze]

nya

we're gonna vote wrong today and then im gonna die overnight

this is my way of warning the last wolf that ive never voted wrong in f3 (outside of turbos but that doesnt count) glgl

[katze]

youtube keeps recommending me wii sports bowling videos what the hell

fine i guess ill play mafia