Sorceror 17er Game Thread

[ladd]

- I kinda think Ladd is a wolf but I will begrudgingly refrain from doing anything about it because the one thing I'm pretty good at concerning werewolf is understanding my place in a threadstate and I know barking up that tree with just get me scoffed at currently. I don't think his approach to me - notably saying I've been so non-committal that it's wolfy because I did it 6 years ago once - is reasonable. On either front. The "good read if it's an accurate representation" front and the "accurate representation of my play so far this game" front. I feel like I've been pretty open about my feelings on people and, quite frankly, feel like I'm one of the people that's been most straight forward about their reads and why they have them (outside of the cuth/monstr thing).

[nebjiamn]

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hehe

i knew what this was but did not regret it, fwiw

[katze]

did we just beetlejuice ladd into existence i dont know what time it is in italy

[nebjiamn]

ill click through 100 spoilers to get a hehe

another fatal flaw of MU is that annoying 'reveal all spoilers' bs

Org GOAT

[Newcomb]

I mean I don't really have much tbh, I've just been messing around.

I'd say that zack/benneh/sunbae/ladd/Cuth seem good

Newcomb/katze/sleep/winston seem fine

Rask/Monstr/hk I don't have a good read on

The rest have either made posts I found wolfy that I'm pretty sure I've talked about already or just haven't posted enough.

Think Monty's the most likely woof I can see, just from prior game experience.

I guess I should explicitly make this a question, so what's up with including rask here?

Like, including rask in a list with everyone I buy. Forgetting to include rask when doing a stream of consciousness "state of the game" post I buy. This halfway thing where rask is included in a specific group of 3 along with 2 other players both of which have posted a moderate amount is... odd?

I can't reeeeeally fit this to an obvious wolf mindset thing, like... w/w with rask? Nah I feel like he'd be even more aware than Joe Villager that his partner was currently 0 posting. Knows rask is v and too lazy to check since already knew alignment? Doesn't really seem that likely.

Still though I kind of want to know what's up with this post since it's odd in a way that demands a reason, like there has to be a reason the thought went there to put that name with those two.

[katze]

ill click through 100 spoilers to get a hehe

another fatal flaw of MU is that annoying 'reveal all spoilers' bs

Org GOAT

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[Cuthillius]

newc/sleep/rask/zack are all roughly in the same category in my mind reads

[Sunbae]

Cuth: current thoughts are "feel like I should be confident one way or another strictly off the 'i voted them strictly for their reads list' post and follow up but I'm not".

Neb: Wanted to know your thoughts on Dobby because you were the one who kicked off the game with stuff about dobby, I "shielded" dobby, and then someone (i think HK) invoked my shielding as something they wanted to do too and it kinda just spooked me so I wanted to see your thoughts 24 hrs later.

Newc: It does a little, thanks.

Ladd: This could have been us but then you voted/piled on me and now im just all turned around

[nebjiamn]

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me, clicking those spoilers:

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[katze]

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me, clicking those spoilers:

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hehe

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hehe

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[nebjiamn]

newc/sleep/rask/zack are all roughly in the same category in my mind reads

this is cuth's subtle form of trolling right

[katze]

it wasnt subtle

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

newc/sleep/rask/zack are all roughly in the same category in my mind reads

I guess I should explicitly make this a question, so what's up with including rask here?

Like, including rask in a list with everyone I buy. Forgetting to include rask when doing a stream of consciousness "state of the game" post I buy. This halfway thing where rask is included in a specific group of 4 along with 3 other players both of which have posted a moderate amount is... odd?

I can't reeeeeally fit this to an obvious wolf mindset thing, like... w/w with rask? Nah I feel like he'd be even more aware than Joe Villager that his partner was currently 0 posting. Knows rask is v and too lazy to check since already knew alignment? Doesn't really seem that likely.

Still though I kind of want to know what's up with this post since it's odd in a way that demands a reason, like there has to be a reason the thought went there to put that name with those two.

[EnderWiggin]

The lack of appreciation for my lyrical masterpiece makes me sad.

[Sunbae]

The lack of appreciation for my lyrical masterpiece makes me sad.

I tried to follow up with something and couldn't come up with anything. You bested me in this lyrical battle

[nebjiamn]

if you really want someone to read your posts, you have to bury the good shit under 10 spoilers

otherwise i just gloss over it and pretend to read it later when sunbae asks me

[ladd]

Ladd: This could have been us but then you voted/piled on me and now im just all turned around

I'll take the blame

feel free to push for me if you want btw

[ladd]

i'll give you the advantage too

enderwiggin

[katze]

I tried to follow up with something and couldn't come up with anything. You bested me in this lyrical battle

i will win the lyrical battle

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You ready? Let's go!
Yeah!
For those of you that wanna know what this situation is all about

This is ten percent bad luck, twenty percent the set-up
Fifteen percent benneh the Town Clown
Five percent Newcomb, fifty percent the willage
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name katze

katze the Townie
Yeah!

She doesn't need maximum towncred
She just wants to be heard, just wants her post to be read
She feels so unlike everybody else, alone
Nobody believes his claim

In spite of the fact that some people still think that they know she is town
But fuck 'em, she knows the way, it?s not about winning
It's all about reality and showing she?s town

katze the Townie
Yeah!

Telling his truth
Who the hell is she, anyway? She never really talks much
katze the Townie

Never concerned with townreads, just fighting for life
Humbled through opportunities given despite the fact
Visor included katze in the set-up

They many misjudge her 'cause she might claim a role similar to one that'll flip
Put it together herself, now the picture connects

This is twenty percent bad luck, eighty percent the set-up
Be a hundred percent clear, 'cause katze is town
This dude is the telling his truth

This is ten percent bad luck, twenty percent the set-up
Fifteen percent benneh the Town Clown
Five percent Newcomb, fifty percent the willage
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name katze the Townie

She's not your everyday Townie
She knows how to work with what he's got, making her way to the top of the post count
She often gets a comment on his name, people keep asking her
"How can you exist"
No, she's living proof (Proof), got her rocking the booth
Dedicated to her role and giving it a hundred percent

Forget benneh, forget mechanics
Forget the design
Just pay attention to this rhyme

When katze flips Town, just say instead
Ridiculous, mechanics lost us the game again

[Csargo]

I guess I should explicitly make this a question, so what's up with including rask here?

Like, including rask in a list with everyone I buy. Forgetting to include rask when doing a stream of consciousness "state of the game" post I buy. This halfway thing where rask is included in a specific group of 3 along with 2 other players both of which have posted a moderate amount is... odd?

I can't reeeeeally fit this to an obvious wolf mindset thing, like... w/w with rask? Nah I feel like he'd be even more aware than Joe Villager that his partner was currently 0 posting. Knows rask is v and too lazy to check since already knew alignment? Doesn't really seem that likely.

Still though I kind of want to know what's up with this post since it's odd in a way that demands a reason, like there has to be a reason the thought went there to put that name with those two.

I like Rask and I don't have strong feelings either way on Monstr/HK and Rask has zero posted, and thought "don't have a good read on" would equate to null for people. Felt like I didn't have to add Dobby/Ender/Capo, because it's not hard to fill in the blanks.

[Newcomb]

yeah i mean, i already flat out said that i am 100% not a wolf who'd tremble in fear seeing your name in the playerlist, and i strongly doubt you don't know that given... awkwardly motions towards the finale

Not gonna respond to your other stuff about me in this post, but I do want to clear this up since it's not a subjective interpretation thing, it's actually about the facts of my read: my read isn't that you're a scardy catwolf who'd be afraid to push me. I have no idea if you would or not. If you say you wouldn't then I have no particular reason to doubt you. My read is that you as a player would be in a position to know that I have read people town in the past for pushing on me. That you have just enough knowledge of me as a player - reputation, not actual experience - to think that it might be a viable path. I'm not saying anything in particular about your actual, real feelings, just how I imagine someone with a certain kind of knowledge might possibly decide to approach me. I'm not even saying that I know you well enough as a player to think that you *would* go for that strategy. Just that there are some players in this game who I would discount as people who might do that, either because they've never played with me, or played with me enough to know it wouldn't work particularly well.

for the time being i'm pretty much entirely willing to discount w/w

i personally think it's very likely v on sleeps side, i think it's a particular kind of village nitpickiness and i personally don't really think it comes from the mindset of "a wolf who is trying to bury a villager"... i typed out a few reasons why but i realize that at this stage of the game i don't really think anyone would ever write a wallpost along the lines of "cape is 100% lack woalf and all of these small things are damning and never done by villagers, lmao"

still believe it's pretty likely to come from a villa tho, and if sleep does end up flipping mafia i'd assume one or two of his bros at the least were already under heat and the cape case was a way to divert it or keep himself out of the fire. or both.

so that leaves v/v or v(sleep)/w(cape). personally i don't think cape has been very villagery, partially due to meta reasons - it's something i don't really feel like pursuing strongly today though because i think cape is like, blindingly villagery as town after a few phases.

i don't really know what the ~threadstate~ would look like in any of these worlds, that's not really something i'm great at and i feel like the mafia roles aren't particularly important so it's not like mafia are obligated to like, hard defend their vig or something.

my current take is that it's v/v > v(sleep)/w(cape)>>>>>w(sleep)/v(cape)>>>>>>>>w/w

I agree that w/w is not a very strong possibility. The timing of it, it would have to be either kind of a rogue crazy move or something where they were convinced cape was always going down, and that wallpost didn't really have that manic / vicious edge to it.

About that wallpost in general, though. I'm a bit mixed on it. I think the best thing you said about it was pointing out the stage of the game that it happened - because yeah, there's very little *reason* for a wolf to try to bury a villager like that, at that point. What it felt more to me like wasn't burying a villager so much as wanting to be townread. It's the kind of post I make as a wolf, but the thing is, I make it way later in the Day. I make it because I feel pressured by my thread position. I make it out of like, obligation. So the timing of it doesn't feel very wolfy at all.

Still though, I keep coming back to it because it pings me very strongly on the "pushing on things that look bad vs. pushing on things that actually make someone likely to flip wolf" scale.

[ladd]

my wife just walked in, tried to talk to me, paused for a moment, and then said "you're playing that game again, aren't you?"

@Winston Hughes how much of the thread had you read when you made this post?



couple of zack's post overnight actually gave me the FEAR

1) calling cuth out for asking too many questions felt level 0

2) the monty push


i actually really liked some of cuth stuff overnight which is incredible cause i usually don't even get what they are saying

nods, appreciate this

i qualified the word consensus when i used it in the initial thing for a reason, yeah, more just like the reads that are held by enough people that they're sorta taken as the default in a sense beyond just being held by n people

i would cite like the reads on benneh/ladd as examples of this where people are often just ok like using less effort to clear someone just because so many other people or other people who are active/trustworthy are reading them a certain way

but this matters to some extent because often these are useful for wolves who can further agendas without actually like proactively doing anything towards them, but can also be the process of slow and inevitable death for wolves in face of towncore

wrt ladd sure

do you think the fact that there's like a third of the game that's relatively low impact could make it more likely for v!ladd to put his vote on you, someone who's active and has done a thing he doesn't like, compared to people who have less content and maybe might have fewer villagery things in their favor but also feel less productive to actually vote?

i mean i do things and think things without all of my thought process making into thread all of the time, i'm mostly curious why you jump to "since thought process isn't there, it's >rand w" instead of being like "hey what's the thought process" and then evaluate that on its own merits

there are things where can be ai, but do you think that particular thing seems like something that he literally just made up, and thus not going into more depth is wolfy? do you think w!sunbae would be more or less likely to monitor what he was doing and avoid doing things without having a reasonable reason to back them up than v!sunbae?

this was a real nice thought

[EnderWiggin]

I should just pretend to be a wolf every game.

For some reason I get more townread that way.

[nebjiamn]

i will win the lyrical battle

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You ready? Let's go!
Yeah!
For those of you that wanna know what this situation is all about

This is ten percent bad luck, twenty percent the set-up
Fifteen percent benneh the Town Clown
Five percent Newcomb, fifty percent the willage
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name katze

katze the Townie
Yeah!

She doesn't need maximum towncred
She just wants to be heard, just wants her post to be read
She feels so unlike everybody else, alone
Nobody believes his claim

In spite of the fact that some people still think that they know she is town
But fuck 'em, she knows the way, it?s not about winning
It's all about reality and showing she?s town

katze the Townie
Yeah!

Telling his truth
Who the hell is she, anyway? She never really talks much
katze the Townie

Never concerned with townreads, just fighting for life
Humbled through opportunities given despite the fact
Visor included katze in the set-up

They many misjudge her 'cause she might claim a role similar to one that'll flip
Put it together herself, now the picture connects

This is twenty percent bad luck, eighty percent the set-up
Be a hundred percent clear, 'cause katze is town
This dude is the telling his truth

This is ten percent bad luck, twenty percent the set-up
Fifteen percent benneh the Town Clown
Five percent Newcomb, fifty percent the willage
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name katze the Townie

She's not your everyday Townie
She knows how to work with what he's got, making her way to the top of the post count
She often gets a comment on his name, people keep asking her
"How can you exist"
No, she's living proof (Proof), got her rocking the booth
Dedicated to her role and giving it a hundred percent

Forget benneh, forget mechanics
Forget the design
Just pay attention to this rhyme

When katze flips Town, just say instead
Ridiculous, mechanics lost us the game again

wow, a non-peepeepoopoo spoiler i regretted clicking

well done katze

[EnderWiggin]

i will win the lyrical battle

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You ready? Let's go!
Yeah!
For those of you that wanna know what this situation is all about

This is ten percent bad luck, twenty percent the set-up
Fifteen percent benneh the Town Clown
Five percent Newcomb, fifty percent the willage
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name katze

katze the Townie
Yeah!

She doesn't need maximum towncred
She just wants to be heard, just wants her post to be read
She feels so unlike everybody else, alone
Nobody believes his claim

In spite of the fact that some people still think that they know she is town
But fuck 'em, she knows the way, it?s not about winning
It's all about reality and showing she?s town

katze the Townie
Yeah!

Telling his truth
Who the hell is she, anyway? She never really talks much
katze the Townie

Never concerned with townreads, just fighting for life
Humbled through opportunities given despite the fact
Visor included katze in the set-up

They many misjudge her 'cause she might claim a role similar to one that'll flip
Put it together herself, now the picture connects

This is twenty percent bad luck, eighty percent the set-up
Be a hundred percent clear, 'cause katze is town
This dude is the telling his truth

This is ten percent bad luck, twenty percent the set-up
Fifteen percent benneh the Town Clown
Five percent Newcomb, fifty percent the willage
And a hundred percent reason to remember the name katze the Townie

She's not your everyday Townie
She knows how to work with what he's got, making her way to the top of the post count
She often gets a comment on his name, people keep asking her
"How can you exist"
No, she's living proof (Proof), got her rocking the booth
Dedicated to her role and giving it a hundred percent

Forget benneh, forget mechanics
Forget the design
Just pay attention to this rhyme

When katze flips Town, just say instead
Ridiculous, mechanics lost us the game again

I want to say that this is beautiful.

[EnderWiggin]

I'm kinda tired and meh rn. I'm gonna go play Gloomhaven for a while and then I'll come back and see if I can put my serious pants on for y'all.

[ladd]

katze,

i have played exactly 1 game with newcomb (tho I have read a bunch), idr have experience with them

i just think they are genuinely trying to solve the game

[Cuthillius]

ladd what's even more incredible is that your ability to read and appreciate the points i'm making in my posts appears to be inversely correlated with my ability to write points that feel like they make sense to me

[ladd]

I'm kinda tired and meh rn. I'm gonna go play Gloomhaven for a while and then I'll come back and see if I can put my serious pants on for y'all.

can you write a couple of sentences on who you'd lunch right now and why

[Cape90]

i have to ask, in #291 you expressed a "bubbling scumread" of cuthilius and monstr, and then stated that they weren't w/w. is that anti-alignment the reason you have cuth as a light townread now, or is there something more...?

Cuth looked better pretty much every post they made after my initial post suspecting them

[katze]

Not gonna respond to your other stuff about me in this post, but I do want to clear this up since it's not a subjective interpretation thing, it's actually about the facts of my read: my read isn't that you're a scardy catwolf who'd be afraid to push me. I have no idea if you would or not. If you say you wouldn't then I have no particular reason to doubt you. My read is that you as a player would be in a position to know that I have read people town in the past for pushing on me. That you have just enough knowledge of me as a player - reputation, not actual experience - to think that it might be a viable path. I'm not saying anything in particular about your actual, real feelings, just how I imagine someone with a certain kind of knowledge might possibly decide to approach me. I'm not even saying that I know you well enough as a player to think that you *would* go for that strategy. Just that there are some players in this game who I would discount as people who might do that, either because they've never played with me, or played with me enough to know it wouldn't work particularly well.

[...]

I agree that w/w is not a very strong possibility. The timing of it, it would have to be either kind of a rogue crazy move or something where they were convinced cape was always going down, and that wallpost didn't really have that manic / vicious edge to it.

About that wallpost in general, though. I'm a bit mixed on it. I think the best thing you said about it was pointing out the stage of the game that it happened - because yeah, there's very little *reason* for a wolf to try to bury a villager like that, at that point. What it felt more to me like wasn't burying a villager so much as wanting to be townread. It's the kind of post I make as a wolf, but the thing is, I make it way later in the Day. I make it because I feel pressured by my thread position. I make it out of like, obligation. So the timing of it doesn't feel very wolfy at all.

Still though, I keep coming back to it because it pings me very strongly on the "pushing on things that look bad vs. pushing on things that actually make someone likely to flip wolf" scale.

alrighty, understood wrt the clarification - i understand the not responding to suspicion thing even if it's mildly disappointing (although im kinda at a point where i'm aware that it's very unlikely either of us die today so it's probably strictly for the better but i'm still sketched bout a few things in any case)

anyway, we can just drop that entirely for now

so uh, the sleep post. i can kinda see it as "a wolf writing it specifically to look villagery" and it's a thought that's entered my mind, but i still think that most cases in which they feel pressured that early to write a post like that to look villagery that the thread consensus was already looking unfavorable for mafia, so i think that's something i'd want to revisit after some wolf flips as opposed to soon if that makes sense