I am trying to be more persuasive in games. I think I've had a lot of games recently where I was doing a pretty decent job (not great, but not bad) but I just kind of *exist* and it doesn't amount to much. In this game I've tried to lay out a concise, easy to follow case on who I think the wolf is (i know, they claimed vig and now I'm begrudgingly voting Ender because thats what I'm supposed to do) as well as a defense on a villager read with game related, personal meta, overall werewolf theory, and perceived flawed logic of pushes there as reasons. I am very uncomfortable in the "look at me!" role (I got a bit happy for myself last postgame cause like, the wolves were elite and I was able to sift through it a decent amount but that was an outlier in back patting lol) but this is my best effort at it.
At this point I am comforted knowing that if I am correct, I think the game is won. I won't jump up and down anymore. I will say my piece and let others roll in and do their thing. If I am incorrect, I won't be the one to derail it further.
Originally Posted by Visor
vote: ender
Originally Posted by Visor
My options are: blade, who is actively shitposting
Mischief, who sunbae has moved heaven and earth to defend
Ephemeral: who got pushed a but by Lan but hasn't really been super villagery
Idkmybffjill
Originally Posted by Visor
The only reason I'm not voting mischief is because of sunbae. I still don't think he's done any solving especially today and focused entirely on defending himself, but if sunbae believes it that strongly and I think sunbae is probably a villager I'm just going to throw up my hands and say fine, have it your way and if he's right good, if he's wrong rip and if he's a wolf trying to keep a ml alive for endgame I guess I'll make that decision when the time comes
Reading through this I don't think Visor really is opportunistically pushing this. I think the concerns he has are valid, I think he is interacting in good faith with me, and I think - most importantly - the way he credits me with pushing away from Mischief despite Mischief both being a top wagon and one that the wolves desperately need in that game state is just so weird for a wolf to do. Like, you need to break that pair up as a wolf with the way I've been defending. But he doesn't start trying to push it on me more than is reasonable and he doesn't try to start shifting it towards suspecting me instead. That entire interaction just reads like an honest to goodness pow wow of two people just trying to sort through things.
I don't think Insomnia not dying is a factor I'm paying attention to fwiw. I think there's enough information in the thread via interactions/casing/discussion to not worry about leveling via nk stuff.
Plus like, I don't think we need to do the whole discussion on my alignment thing. It has been said, repeated, and locked in that I am never, ever living through two kills when Insomnia has one and I've tunneled him for every game day in existence. I've acknowledged it and accept it. I have spent a few hours this evening going through and landing on what I think the answer is, explaining it in detail with quotes, and feel comfortable with it. If I'm right, cool. If I'm wrong, darn.
I am, of course, obligated to give some half hearted "Insomnia, if Ephem isn't right then idk just read my posts and ask yourself if I believe what I say or if I'm spewing nonsense" line at some point but that's just something we're all supposed to say here.
I'm going to get some sleep. Idk how much more game content I'll post tomorrow cause like, I've pretty much said all I feel like saying. Have explained who I think is the wolf, why, how it went down as that pair in my estimation, who i think is the villager and why. The only thing left is just WIFOM "if i were a wolf id be doing xyz not abc" self meta nonsense and I'm pretty much done with that stuff. We've talked about it before and it bores me at this point.
If you have any particular hiccups with how I've operated this game I will answer direct questions at some point tomorrow. That's pretty much all I'll do other than some memes and shitposting.
so i decided to read some through d2 and an exchange between ender and sunbae stuck out:
"I'm going to take Dya's Insomnia read into account + the whole "Pointed Question" thing or whatever it was between Lan/Insomnia that Rask talked about and think I'm good giving Insomnia the day too today "
"Initial reaction to that is that I want to soft clear anyone that was around and active during eod trying to move wagons around. If they were wolves with lan they were sitting on a bunch of villager wagons with no threat to themselves yet still made the effort to move things around. Top of my head that's Visor, Rask, Mischief?"
both from sunbae
ender then alerts sunbae to the fact he was a wagon at eod and thus a villager in sunbaes world
sunbae takes a leaf out of the nl school of posting and ignores this
LOL
its strange to me that sunbae doesnt consider ender being a constant vote target of lantana, and also blade being one of the only voters of lantana on that day
ender expresses doubt on insomnia
sunbae buries insomnia, in hindsight this is a little weird of a progression - you say earlier that you are going to give him the day and then its bury insomnia time
why does sunbae have ephemeral as his highest clear mid day2 for lantana trying to kill him, when lantana spent most of the day trying to kill ender and ender trying to kill lantana
why is ender in this tier 3 of the poe. now i understand for me why i had trouble committing to a read on him, because he kept shitposting
why does sunbae have nothing to say about the ender lantana stuff idgi
goes on, sunbae responds to the insom claim
god i wish i didnt punt so hard yday, i wish i had conviction in my reads. i couldve done more to push back yesterday.
reading over d2, it is much wolfier than d1 for sunbae (eph is basically nonexistent).
the perspective of: lantana pushed eph therefore eph clear, to not giving the same respect to ender, to burying insomnia after saying he would give him the day
i understand reads can change it just feels like if they did change i didnt see the changes in thread
i wish i was better at actually internalising the lessons i learn in ww
i thought d2, i should trust dyas read on insomnia because its unlikely that insomnia as a wolf shoots dya there unless they are killing for lantana only
and i couldve ran with that for a day, but i let it go and sat in a big pile of nothing, not feeling anything strongly enough to take any real stances. i couldve pushed the eph read harder too, and maybe that wouldve made an easier f4 here, if not having the game already over.
insom id appreciate any thoughts you have if you are around before i go to bed
theres no individual post that stands out to me and says this guy is a villager, this is a keen insight that wolves don't really have, the interactions arent clearing, the posts arent clearing
i have concerns over sunbaes d2, but i cant deny tha this d1 is a lot more villagery than ephs, even if he did townread the wolf consistently (so did i, so its not like a black mark forever thing)
idk. i will state again, that i dont think lantana as a wolf bothers to go those weird places as w/w with me, and i think my reaction is pretty clearly not on the same channel as them. i know repeating this stuff and pointing out while im town isnt anything you want insomnia, but i cant help the anxiety that somehow you'll make the wrong choice and i feel an urgent desire to show you why im town in case we are in the nightmare scenario and it goes to f3 because ive shit the bed so many times already and this is my chance at redeeming myself to get the village over the line, no matter if i am the village idiot @ chit town
the funny thing is, ive been in this scenario a few times lately as a villager, had people village read me, and ive focused on trying to lock down that read and then they panic and even though i dont think the other players itg (in these turbos) are posting v well, they just see the direct appeal and it must trigger all the alarms, because it never works, but in my head i feel like it should, people are just afraid to commit or look stupid, me included. perhaps its a waste of time.
Sorry bronana it?s not even about you casing me, it?s about voting me when i feel like everyone was confused whether i was the vigi or vanillager faking it
I guess if you are a villager you are confused if im the last wolf but you don?t have to worry about it, that?s vigi?s problem and if im the last wolf i never win
You can case someone but voting them when they claim vigi, putting them in a tie??
Eph, why does visor look worse than sunbae here iyo? They have both voted, but sunbae?s vote had a chance to turn the tides when wolves have to deal with a potentially very tough question going into the night: ?do i bite the bait and shoot insomnia who?s a misvote opportunity??
If i flip vanillager, they take almost no heat cuz they were correct in thinking i wasn?t vig and everyone thought it was me
If i flip vigi, the wolf has the F3 target lined up in visor / sunbae, they aren?t alone making the pro-wolf suboptimal play
Frankly it was simply a matter of heart vs mind
Up till last eod I pretty much consistently villa read sunbae's posting and couldn't get myself on board with nl's as much in the grand scheme of things
And if I'm going to be fully honest there's also quite a bit of bias that's been pushing me in that direction, I feel like i have a bit of a personal obligation to read nl properly because we share quite a few similarities as ww players(it's the same thing that pushed me to get quickly better than average at reading manti lol) so it leans towards being a pride thing quite a bit
Even though I don't have prior experience with nl's wolf game I have villaged with him several times and iirc, found him pretty easily back then so not having the same experience here is making me
There are several issues with this line of thinking obviously, because it could very easily just be a me problem not being on the ball and getting stuck on irrelevant nonsense
and I suppose that's what I'm going to try to find out today lol
well, whats the irrelevant nonsense u r getting stuck on
i will admit this is definitely an atypical game from me, partially spurred on from the deadlines
i havent been able to play the way i want to
ive been able to find you sometimes too, but i feel like you would agree that its gonna be hard for me to get tehre on you with not enough sticking out + short phases + low posts
well, whats the irrelevant nonsense u r getting stuck on
i will admit this is definitely an atypical game from me, partially spurred on from the deadlines
i havent been able to play the way i want to
ive been able to find you sometimes too, but i feel like you would agree that its gonna be hard for me to get tehre on you with not enough sticking out + short phases + low posts
ya I get where you're coming from, having less time and content to digest makes it much harder for me to get anywhere solid too
said irrelevant nonsense would primarily be what I described in that post about me having a bit too much personal pride tied to not getting you wrong and comparing the times I was able to find you more easily
like it's easy for me to go "yeah that's prob dumb" on a logical level but the grip is still there emotionally I guess
@insomnia can you give me some bullet points on why you're thinking sunbae over visor overall? I see your point about last eod but I'm looking for something that's more "big picture" oriented
right now the only hard point I can see myself giving in nl's favor is probably his interactions with lantana, I can definitely see v!him responding that way and I'm not surprised he'd come out of it with a villa read on the slot either
on the other hand sunbae's side of interactions doesn't stand out either way, they do back and forth a little bit but i don't see anything that points towards them not being aligned
so i decided to read some through d2 and an exchange between ender and sunbae stuck out:
"I'm going to take Dya's Insomnia read into account + the whole "Pointed Question" thing or whatever it was between Lan/Insomnia that Rask talked about and think I'm good giving Insomnia the day too today "
"Initial reaction to that is that I want to soft clear anyone that was around and active during eod trying to move wagons around. If they were wolves with lan they were sitting on a bunch of villager wagons with no threat to themselves yet still made the effort to move things around. Top of my head that's Visor, Rask, Mischief?"
both from sunbae
ender then alerts sunbae to the fact he was a wagon at eod and thus a villager in sunbaes world
sunbae takes a leaf out of the nl school of posting and ignores this
LOL
its strange to me that sunbae doesnt consider ender being a constant vote target of lantana, and also blade being one of the only voters of lantana on that day
ender expresses doubt on insomnia
sunbae buries insomnia, in hindsight this is a little weird of a progression - you say earlier that you are going to give him the day and then its bury insomnia time
why does sunbae have ephemeral as his highest clear mid day2 for lantana trying to kill him, when lantana spent most of the day trying to kill ender and ender trying to kill lantana
why is ender in this tier 3 of the poe. now i understand for me why i had trouble committing to a read on him, because he kept shitposting
why does sunbae have nothing to say about the ender lantana stuff idgi
goes on, sunbae responds to the insom claim
god i wish i didnt punt so hard yday, i wish i had conviction in my reads. i couldve done more to push back yesterday.
reading over d2, it is much wolfier than d1 for sunbae (eph is basically nonexistent).
the perspective of: lantana pushed eph therefore eph clear, to not giving the same respect to ender, to burying insomnia after saying he would give him the day
i understand reads can change it just feels like if they did change i didnt see the changes in thread
I did not ignore that. I explained that if Lantana is a dead wolf and one of those people were a wolf, that's both wolves and those wagons had to be villagers.
Yes, if Rask/Visor/Mischief are wolves then you have to be a villager because they are the last one remaining. In those worlds, why would they be so active on v/v/v/v wagons?
Me: Lantana is a dead wolf. I think I want to clear Rask, visor, and mischief because if one of them were wolves then all the wagons were v/v/v and why would wolves be so active trying to move wagons around at end of day?
the funny thing is, ive been in this scenario a few times lately as a villager, had people village read me, and ive focused on trying to lock down that read and then they panic and even though i dont think the other players itg (in these turbos) are posting v well, they just see the direct appeal and it must trigger all the alarms, because it never works, but in my head i feel like it should, people are just afraid to commit or look stupid, me included. perhaps its a waste of time.
ymmv
Sir, I am voting the other person and discussing how I think you're a villager. Repeatedly. I don't think I'm panicked at all. I have had no qualms this game of saying what I believe and at no point have I been afraid of looking stupid.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
there is no fear in this dojo
But yes, this is why I've just stopped the self-meta "i wouldnt interact this way/do this as a wolf" because I've determined "its a waste of time" like you said. I tell the truth with it, nobody in the game believes me, then nobody adjusts in the future and we do it again. Now I'm just saying what I think are alignments and moving on.
Like, do I think my interactions with Lan are clearing for me? Yes, I could write paragraphs about it. But at the end everyone will say "well thats what you have to say no matter what" and ignore it and the only thing I've accomplished is wasting my time. Instead, I've spent my time breaking down exactly where my head is at regarding Visor and Ephem: via postings, interactions with Lan, dead night kill reads factoring in, what my hang ups were about Ephem being a wolf, then finding a solution to that hang up and bringing it all together to determine my wolf and villager read. I think that has been a better use of my time.
I do think I'm findable here if you read over my cases and pushes and defenses. "Doe she believe this" is the only question that ultimately matters. I think it's clear that I thought Insomnia was a wolf and that I was thinking Mischief was a villager in all of those interactions. But I've accepted the fact that when you push the vig for two days that sometimes you get shot.
so i decided to read some through d2 and an exchange between ender and sunbae stuck out:
"I'm going to take Dya's Insomnia read into account + the whole "Pointed Question" thing or whatever it was between Lan/Insomnia that Rask talked about and think I'm good giving Insomnia the day too today "
"Initial reaction to that is that I want to soft clear anyone that was around and active during eod trying to move wagons around. If they were wolves with lan they were sitting on a bunch of villager wagons with no threat to themselves yet still made the effort to move things around. Top of my head that's Visor, Rask, Mischief?"
both from sunbae
ender then alerts sunbae to the fact he was a wagon at eod and thus a villager in sunbaes world
sunbae takes a leaf out of the nl school of posting and ignores this
LOL
its strange to me that sunbae doesnt consider ender being a constant vote target of lantana, and also blade being one of the only voters of lantana on that day
ender expresses doubt on insomnia
sunbae buries insomnia, in hindsight this is a little weird of a progression - you say earlier that you are going to give him the day and then its bury insomnia time
why does sunbae have ephemeral as his highest clear mid day2 for lantana trying to kill him, when lantana spent most of the day trying to kill ender and ender trying to kill lantana
why is ender in this tier 3 of the poe. now i understand for me why i had trouble committing to a read on him, because he kept shitposting
why does sunbae have nothing to say about the ender lantana stuff idgi
goes on, sunbae responds to the insom claim
god i wish i didnt punt so hard yday, i wish i had conviction in my reads. i couldve done more to push back yesterday.
reading over d2, it is much wolfier than d1 for sunbae (eph is basically nonexistent).
the perspective of: lantana pushed eph therefore eph clear, to not giving the same respect to ender, to burying insomnia after saying he would give him the day
i understand reads can change it just feels like if they did change i didnt see the changes in thread
Open day: I villa read Rask/Mischief/Visor/Ephem for the end of day. Wolf is in Ender or Insom. I'll listen to dyas insomnia read and vote Ender.
Early in day: I read through end of day and determined that Lan's posting about Insomnia was a panicked wolf trying to save their teammate. I look into interactions and see that they talked to Insomnia way more pointed than anyone else they talk to. Make an entire long case about why I'm going back to Insomnia instead and how it supersedes my earlier dya thing because it's a full blown case I feel good about.
Insomnia claims vig: I don't believe you. I almost counterclaim reflexively but remember rocks fall and say "no. I will not spaz out again. We are in a position where I don't need to do that". I flat out tell Insomnia I don't believe him but I will grumble and vote elsewhere. My options are now Ender/Mischief. I vote Ender, explain that I have no real concrete reason to find Ender wolfy, that I think Mischief is a villager, and that I think we're in one of those situations where we're all going to try and find a wolf in a bunch of villagers because the one right in front of us is a wolf (insomnia) and its like a moon situation from spec chat game when we kept trying to find the harder answer and none of them really felt right.
End of day: Mischief/Ender are wagons. We all joke about how none of us really want to vote Ender we're just not voting for mischief (me cause I villa read, others to listen to me). We all kind of collectively say fuck it. I'm voting the person I think is a wolf, claim be damned. Rask moves, you move, I move. I listened to myself and voted my best wolf read.
I think your "reads can change it just feels like if they did change I didn't see the changes in the thread" comment is incorrect.
Like, I understand what you're doing. If you wolf case both of us it doesn't matter what the answer is, if the vig listens to you then you win. I think that means we win right now but it'd be true regardless.
I much prefer my way of just saying "this is the wolf, that is the villager, gl" but maybe my approach here is flawed. It's certainly an unusual and awkward game state.
Entirely a side note: an entire game of 700 posts where I can actually reread the entire game multiple times is such a wonderful thing. It's the first time I've gotten to end game in a thread like this and it makes life so much easier.
I take issue with it entirely because I can't think of anything historically that would prompt someone to read me in that direction so it looks like the read is tacked on there just because, as opposed to it being a real read you'd form on any reasonable basis
Originally Posted by Ephemeral
ya most likely will be asleep by eod so I'm gonna have to pick a lane in a bit
@Visor if you're around can you gimme something on rask here? iirc you had some slam dunk reads on him before
This progression struck me as weird - eph finds rask weird for looking into activity (ok? Gth it?s not an issue in and of itself that much) but i imagine this second post was a result of his first one which i have some difficulty believing to be genuine - not impossible but it?s a minor bad look
I take issue with it entirely because I can't think of anything historically that would prompt someone to read me in that direction so it looks like the read is tacked on there just because, as opposed to it being a real read you'd form on any reasonable basis
Originally Posted by Visor
vote: ephemeral
I really gotta think about that taffy read some more
Part of me just wants to village read it because it's not a super good case/weird targets but I do have a weal spot for that stuff
Re: Sufjan 10er [Game Thread]
Originally Posted by Sunbae
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