Casual december game

[Boquise]

I had no idea what post 426 meant when I read it and dismissed it as some kind of in joke that I didn't get.

So that's not a contradiction. I'm left with trying to decide whether the fairly weak day one interaction was scummy in itself (while taken at face value) and whether or not the constant shading thrown at me toDay means anything at all. I have a big issue with the post where he goes after me for shoving Visor into an early grave. He is townreading Hollowkatt and Ender both pretty hard right now, and they were the other two wagons that came up on day two. So why scum-shade me for pushing Visor in particular? I can only think of one potentially legitimate reason, and I haven't seen him say anything that would suggest he was thinking it at the time. Just the bare assertion that being assertive and wrong is scummy. Which is kind of easy for scum to shade somebody on.

My insomnia is kicking my ass again today but I'm going to try my hardest to at least get through the rest of the Dyachei spew before I have to lie down.

I told you in a post today that it wasn't a contradiction and i even showed you the whole conversation in context.


You're over-repping my shade on you. You're making it sound like it is some mindless thing, like a tunnel, when it isn't. I have criticised you and I have been paranoid. I am still waiting for you to explain how I am being aggressive tbh. Or was it you taking a shot and now can't stand for it tbh?

The reasons to town read Ender and HK are correct. I don't understand why it matters that they were also wagons but you pushed another townie hard?

"Just the bare assertion that bring assertive and wrong is scummy. Which is easy for scum to shade somebody on". Like how it is easy to shade someone who's playstyle you have decided is illegitimate tbh

[hollowkatt]

Amy wasn't a wagon when we all voted D1. Amy had one vote from Boq iirc.

yeah I'm aware, which is why I wanted to talk to boq about it which is why I said that.

[hollowkatt]

Are you saying you think it's Boq/Renata ?

I don't think renata is a wolf and I'm leaning not wolf on boq as well.

[hollowkatt]

I'm not following. I didn't say the dya wagon was pure, I said we have to take bussing into consideration (i.e. not pure). Just like, you know, Pizza spent 1000 words explaining in the quote.



They had 36 hours to adjust to the threadstate, which was increasingly anti-dya, with few alternatives put forward as serious votes. This is surely enough for bussing to be possible.

If you don't know who I suspect out of that list of names, you should reread my posts since D3.



Are you going to pursue forthright misunderstandings every day then?

At no point did I connect Amp's or Kage's alignment to their wagon position D3. If you'll recall, I did earlier highlight that they had each ended off-wagon on one of the prior days, so it was remarkable to see them both doing it.

As Pizza explained, and I agree, it doesn't have to be a bus situation, we just have no choice but to read it as one, particularly in the context of the D3 gamestate, which to repeat was much more restricted than that of early game. Therefore, voting dya D3 does not confer town-cred, unless you can find a single player who made the dya wagon happen above others. They, at least, get a pass, but not a clear. To my awareness there isn't anyone who fits that description, other than maybe ender.

So stop wasting time on hard-defending Day 3.

nothing you've written changes my mind

[Renata]

You are putting more strength into my sus than there is with your "so suspicious". I have even written in the middle of my sus on you that I have you as town lean, as can be seen in the read list i wrote. Though you were only interested in responding to my solving with snark.

I remembered that you pushed Visor and that he responded eventually by scum reading you back. That made me question my "Renata is town because she is pushing me rn" and I began to fiddle with whether your push is town indicative and scum indicative. Because this is something I have a history of overlooking. Hence why I out my paranoia and work with it, despite having you as a town lean in the middle of this by looking at the votes. At that moment i went from my memory.

I feel like you're not really reading the posts i write that aren't directed towards you.

It's true I don't read much of the X is not scum with Y but might be with Z stuff from someone I'm suspecting so hard. I can't read that kind of thing for alignment, so it's useless if I can't trust you. All it does if I do read it is make me paranoid about what worlds you might be trying to push. Like that's a big reason I was thinking about a you-Kage team for part of yesterday, because you keep talking about him as a necessary mislynch.

For the rest, half your iso since yesterday is concerned with shading me, and you're still sticking to me as a town lean like, why. I can't follow anything of your logic.

My reasoning around your push on me for pushing Visor was that it might make sense if it was because you were hard scumreading dyachei at the time and thought my constant noise about the other three was meant to detract from your read on dyachei. But that's not what you're claiming at all, either. You're saying it's exactly what I thought it was: pushing a town player into the grave as potentially scummy as a thing in and of itself. At least for that post.

I don't know what to do with you.

[Renata]

I told you in a post today that it wasn't a contradiction and i even showed you the whole conversation in context.


You're over-repping my shade on you. You're making it sound like it is some mindless thing, like a tunnel, when it isn't. I have criticised you and I have been paranoid. I am still waiting for you to explain how I am being aggressive tbh. Or was it you taking a shot and now can't stand for it tbh?

The reasons to town read Ender and HK are correct. I don't understand why it matters that they were also wagons but you pushed another townie hard?

"Just the bare assertion that bring assertive and wrong is scummy. Which is easy for scum to shade somebody on". Like how it is easy to shade someone who's playstyle you have decided is illegitimate tbh

Yeah, I had not read that post of yours at the time I wrote this one. I missed a bunch while reading through Dyachei's stuff.

[Renata]

I don't think renata is a wolf and I'm leaning not wolf on boq as well.

Who are you looking at right now. I know Monty is one even if I'm not wholly clear on your reasoning. Who's the other?

[Renata]

In #1183 dya makes potentially their most detailed post of the game, casing Vulgard town. Ladd is currently all-in on Vulgard being town, and expresses so around the same time as dya (to name one instance). May be worthwhile to look more closely into how players related to Ender, Vulgard, and Amy in particular, as Mafia appear to have adopted a calculated collective approach toward each of them, perhaps as part of a long-term plan to shape the consensus POE.

#1199: Renata asks dya to elaborate on their t-Vulgard case in the context of some Vulgard post. Dya delivers a hedgy Vulgard read in response. She then suddenly reverses outright and doesn't like Vulgard's posting anymore. [In retrospect, dya posting "Idk that it makes me think vulgard is a wolf, but I'm not reading him as villager as much" right after presenting a wall concluding that Vulgard is town was a tell, the exact same tell as with ladd.]
^^^
This urges me toward hardclearing Renata, because this is clearly a slip by dya and it was the exact same flip-flop as wrt ladd later (in response to Visor's questions).

I'm only getting increasingly attached to a POE of Taffy-Boq. Most likely to be wrong about Amp. Kage remains a pure wildcard. I doubt this game can be solved without at least trusting HK and Renata, and probably YOLO with Csargo. Also keep in mind, Taffy-Boq-Kage-Amy would each fit into a separate category in ladd's big D2 reads post (#1579), with Csargo sharing a category with dyachei, who has flipped ofc.

Please read through the dya ISO for key interactions.

Thoughts on how Boq specifically fits in worlds: Mafia seemed to be coordinating on developing collective POE, and all of ladd-Boq-dya adopted strong, interactive, reads on Amy. Ladd quasi-tunneled Amy, dya constantly interacted with Amy in a mutually-buddying way, and Boq helped dya generate content (such as creating a team balance on Vulgard reads) while linking them to Amy. Alternatively, Amy could be doing an open-scum drag show (and there's no way Amy and dya would not have been aware of how many connections they were creating). I prefer the former scenario. Also, Boq had a lot of shallow mutually-supporting interactions with ladd (see ISO).

But there is some reason to treat them as anti-paired.

My teams for now (last two unordered):
Taffy-Boq
Taffy-Amp
Boq-Kage
Taffy-Kage

As I've laid out, there are good reasons to trust Csargo, HK, and Renata, great reasons to lock Ender, and I just flat-out refuse to believe Amp-Kage.

I think Taffy gets lynched today and then I hope I'm dead before LYLO.

I agree with this PoE for the most part.

vote: Taffy

[Renata]

Went back to Monty's comments on Taffy's 1321/1329 for sanity check since I had to stop yesterday at page 41 and I agree with Monty. That does look a hell of a lot like someone who's trying to piggyback off of two townies' positive reads of Dyachei in order to have a reason to move Dyachei up in her own assessment. Logic's case on Dya was better than anybody gave it credit for at the time given everything else that was happening, and Taffy as scum would have been self-conscious about needing to acknowledge that. Now that Cape and Vulgard have been reading Dyachei as solid town anyway, this strange reason for wanting to acknowledge them/ credit their read for changing their own mind (Vulgard)/ encourage the thread to given further reasons to read Dyachei as town (Cape) appears. Taffy could have argued with them on the basis of the Logic case that she said she agreed with, but didn't even acknowledge it. Instead saying only that Vulgard's post had somehow caused her to re-evaluate her potential Dyachei pairings, even though there's nothing obviously in that post that should cause someone to do that.

[Montmorency]

this makes me feel better about locking in Renata. I was getting a bit miffed because she was trying to bury Visor too and he reacted. And because in my last town game, a scum player did tunnel me through most parts of the game (which is rare). However I found him as scum and I found the town player who tunnelled me too, and Renata is closer in her approach to the town player than the scum player now gth.

i think people who havent played with me misunderstand my approach
on D1 i do casual reads and poke around, to develop reads. It is by D3 I can start solving by flips. My reads are generally weak. I solve through laying out the puzzle pieces and see what fits + adding in player psychology and my assumptions.

Do you have any other insights from the dyachei ISO or my commentary? Such as on Taffy's alignment, Amp's relationships...

nothing you've written changes my mind

Changes - your mind - on something you made up out of thin air. K, do you have any thoughts about the recorded actions of players in D1-2, or would you like to call again tomorrow? It's quite possible you endgame, so I need you to focus on the solve.

[Csargo]

yeah I'm aware, which is why I wanted to talk to boq about it which is why I said that.

Okay.

[Montmorency]

Bear with me as I drop bombs.

What I missed of dya from the rest of D2:

*Dya plains their meta has changed to Visor and Renata

*Visor asks what they think of ladd and taffy (Visor has scum-cased ladd, taffy, dya, and HK, all of whom ladd will defend against Visor). They reply: "ladd is lean villager so is taffy. I think the way taffy's approaching the game is decent. I find myself nodding along with his posts." Visor presses on, and dya promises to look at taffy more later if Visor links posts. Dya comes up w/ "he has fewer posts than I remembered." Finally, they tell Visor:

ok i see what you mean, they don't really try to get anyone over to their viewpoint. But I think most of their reads are fine? I agree with many of them. Doesn't really make taffy a wolf but I dont see them as clear villager now either

i think their reads do show solving though. Just not hardcore solving. and they don't really try to push their viewpoints. If they were really convinced about a wolf read you'd think they would do more to push that viewpoint

ONCE AGAIN THIS IS SO LIKE WHAT HAPPENED WITH LADD. ON D2 VISOR PRESSURED DYA INTO FORGETTING OR WALKING BACK THEIR TRS OF BOTH LADD AND TAFFY. VISOR WHAT A LAD

[Montmorency]

Anyway...

So Visor gets dya to name 4 SRs, these being Ender, HK, Renata, Visor.

I think renata is grasping at relatively little things and pushing them as bigger than they are
HK isn't really pushing his reads either. He's got a pretty small thread presence and I find that wolfy for him

like that one post from vulgard she found wolfy. She went on and on about it being so wolfy without considering other options at all

Visor asks about Kage and Csargo. Dya's reads:

i dont know kage at all so im not really sure. they dont have thread presence though
csargo seems like he's town

About Vulgard and Ender and Boq:

I'm really bad at reading ender but I think he's been pretty defensive this game. I also think that his reads aren't great (other than his hk wolf read)
vulgard I think I get to a certain degree and the only thing I haven't liked from him was that lie to get pizza off his back that Renata pointed out. I posted some posts from him earlier that I think show his towniness. I also think he was pizza's likely check

Struggling to walk the line between upholding the team's pro-Vulgard consensus, and appearing solvy and cooperative.

reads matter to me because I think people are pushing villagers a lot (like amy)

ender can be defensive as both alignments. I just think there's more of it than warranted currently

boq seems to be solving so I think he's probably town. like he's actually showing his thought process in the thread

Visor returns to a ladd-taffy team. He asks what dya's world with ender-vulgard-visor all cleared looks like, and it's Renata-HK-Kage-Taffy.

Their initial list was
Ender
HK
Renata
Visor

now

HK
Renata
Kage
Taffy

Just boxed into appeasing Visor, not for the last time.

Amy is not a lock, but is one of dya's top reads. Visor asks for a case, so dya tells him it's a tone read that can't be explained.

Taffy pops in to apologize for one of her own posts being scummy. Visor is not impressed and wonders why she has nothing to say about the game.

NOW is the part where dya asks about Visor's ladd read (while commenting that they didn't like Taffy's pop-in either). Visor delivers a thorough wall of a case.

Dya's response, as famously highlighted yesterday:

"yeah i think he hasn't spent enough time in the thread for me to get a good read on him"

Afterwards Dya demurres that "fwiw, I'd be up for an hk elim, too."

Trying to get attention off ladd and taffy and onto HK.

Renata has a dispute about one of her posts with dya and demands satisfaction. Dya basically ignores her.

Renata accuses dya of cooking up interactions to save Visor. Dya says "lol." Boq quotes their lol and adds a "hmm", immediately bare-voting Kage. Boq follows this up by hedging on Visor and calling dya's Vulgard and Ender reads shallow scumreads.

Ladd emerges to defend dya and dya votes HK and bugs out for EOD.

Boq says he trusts dya's lock reads, so Amy-dya must be paired.

amy is my biggest wolf read but I respect Dya's tone reads tbh. There are several examples where they have been correct and I have been wrong. Hence why I have decided that Dya and Amy are always the same alignment tbh

[Montmorency]

Let's summarize, zoom, enhance, all of that dya D2:

Dya produces a big wallpost town-reading Vulgard. IIRC they never treat another player this way.

Renata asks them about it, causing Dya to hedge on Vulgard to the point of saying "Idk that it makes me think vulgard is a wolf, but I'm not reading him as villager as much."

Visor asks dya about Taffy and they reply "gut says v", a generic no-detail read of the sort ladd gave dya when dya asked ladd for a read on them D1.

Taffy takes the opportunity of Vulgard TRing Taffy and Dya to proclaim a shift away from SRing dya (Taffy as of EOD1 had dya null).

Time passes.

Visor puts dya in the hotseat and grills them on just about every player. He asks first about ladd and Taffy as a scum team; dya leans both of them town without giving reasons. After some interrogation, dya winds up at "Doesn't really make taffy a wolf but I dont see them as clear villager now either."

"Idk that it makes me think vulgard is a wolf, but I'm not reading him as villager as much."
"Doesn't really make taffy a wolf but I dont see them as clear villager now either."


The interrogation continues. Visor pushes dya on worlds where the top suspects of the day - Ender, Vulgard, Visor - are ruled out. Dya adds Taffy to their POE.

They pronounce an undescribable town tone read on Amy.

Taffy arrives to shade herself, which pings Visor. Dya tries to piggyback the criticism, but Visor doesn't care about the argument around mechanical reasoning, it's about Taffy not engaging with the thread in any way.

Dya still TLs ladd, asks Visor about his case.

Visor wallposts m-ladd.

Dya: "yeah i think he hasn't spent enough time in the thread for me to get a good read on him"

Dya: "fwiw, I'd be up for an hk elim, too"

Renata arrives to pressure dya. Dya ignores her, lols at her, votes HK, and dips.

vulgard ,all three of u me and ender are v

where are you looking to

who is suspect in this world to you

can you pelase talk to me about ladd and taffy?

OH OH VISOR, OH. WHAT'S THAT SOUND? CAN IT BE?

@Visor Retroactively:

[Renata]

Visor is better at this game than we all deserve. Better than I deserve, at least.

[Csargo]

Visor is better at this game than we all deserve. Better than I deserve, at least.

[Totally not Taffy]

Are you saying you think it's Boq/Renata ?

That's my current best guess. Will now start reading today.

[hollowkatt]

Who are you looking at right now. I know Monty is one even if I'm not wholly clear on your reasoning. Who's the other?

my poe is monty, kage, taffy

I don't think the wolves handle Amy like they have. It's not a great reason to clear them but it's what I'm currently using. I think Dya went for the pocket and the way Amy talked about that after Dya flipped felt genuine to me.

I think csargo is off on his own island doing his own thing but it doesn't feel anti-town. Like if he's a wolf he's painting himself into some corners that'll be hard to come out of. Kage and Taffy are kinda black holes for me and I know I need to have a better opinion than "idk kill 'em or whatever". I'll work on that over night should it be necessary.

[hollowkatt]

Do you have any other insights from the dyachei ISO or my commentary? Such as on Taffy's alignment, Amp's relationships...



Changes - your mind - on something you made up out of thin air. K, do you have any thoughts about the recorded actions of players in D1-2, or would you like to call again tomorrow? It's quite possible you endgame, so I need you to focus on the solve.

Fine, I'll put away my bias and read what you've dropped today with an open mind.

[Boquise]

Do you have any other insights from the dyachei ISO or my commentary? Such as on Taffy's alignment, Amp's relationships...



Changes - your mind - on something you made up out of thin air. K, do you have any thoughts about the recorded actions of players in D1-2, or would you like to call again tomorrow? It's quite possible you endgame, so I need you to focus on the solve.

i am not sure why you completely remove amy and kage as a relationship, so you could elaborate there tbh!

[Boquise]

yeah I'm aware, which is why I wanted to talk to boq about it which is why I said that.

sup

[Boquise]

It's true I don't read much of the X is not scum with Y but might be with Z stuff from someone I'm suspecting so hard. I can't read that kind of thing for alignment, so it's useless if I can't trust you. All it does if I do read it is make me paranoid about what worlds you might be trying to push. Like that's a big reason I was thinking about a you-Kage team for part of yesterday, because you keep talking about him as a necessary mislynch.

For the rest, half your iso since yesterday is concerned with shading me, and you're still sticking to me as a town lean like, why. I can't follow anything of your logic.

My reasoning around your push on me for pushing Visor was that it might make sense if it was because you were hard scumreading dyachei at the time and thought my constant noise about the other three was meant to detract from your read on dyachei. But that's not what you're claiming at all, either. You're saying it's exactly what I thought it was: pushing a town player into the grave as potentially scummy as a thing in and of itself. At least for that post.

I don't know what to do with you.

lol so you dismiss 90% of my body of work and then say that all I do is shade you ok tbh

I have repeated three times iirc already how my thoughts have developed around your slot. I am sorry that I cannot produce an answer you like? My posts where I make the associations describe where my head is, is an open process with open cards, and makes it clear what worlds i am at. This makes it easy to follow my thought process and see if something comes up.

Sometimes scum decide to bury town, yes. Revolting tbh. I dont understand how a sudden "oh no visor did get pushed by renata and visor did push back and call her scum maybe i am misreading this trait again" as out of all realms of possibilities. You cherry-pick my posts, ignore my questions, ignore my thought process, and then you come here and complain about "idk what to do with me" and how unreadable I am making myself. I can guarantee that if you keep interacting with me but ignore my questions back to you and misrep my play I will get aggressive for real.

So it is better that you just ignore me. If you wanna mislynch me and then defend your tunnel, go ahead. Interacting with you is no longer giving me anything read-wise either way and will just clog down the thread tbh

[Boquise]

i frankly cannot see a world with hk and ender as wolves based on things i have already said
i find it super unlikely that csargo is scum
i guess i could be wrong on kage but i still think ladd's treatment of him is weird if they are partners.
i feel 70% comfortable with my renata read and I find Monty's town case to be agreeable.
Monty is the one player who is townsiding today by the active solving and bringing up information from flipped wolves. I have however no tech to clear him atm.
Amy could maybe be cleared based on votes and how ladd treated her, and her "idk what to do lets vote boq" is akin to how Amy naturally reacts to stuff. Yet this feels weak because I have only Taffy left and I think there should be 4 wolves.

Taffy is tonally townie but the poe is the poe tbh.
I feel happy with my vote

[Boquise]

my poe is monty, kage, taffy

I don't think the wolves handle Amy like they have. It's not a great reason to clear them but it's what I'm currently using. I think Dya went for the pocket and the way Amy talked about that after Dya flipped felt genuine to me.

I think csargo is off on his own island doing his own thing but it doesn't feel anti-town. Like if he's a wolf he's painting himself into some corners that'll be hard to come out of. Kage and Taffy are kinda black holes for me and I know I need to have a better opinion than "idk kill 'em or whatever". I'll work on that over night should it be necessary.

what are the corners csargo is painting himself into?

[hollowkatt]

sup

sup it's this one:

So building on this:
I have previously unpaired Amy and Monty.
And in the post I am quoting, I am unpairing Amy with Renata (tho I know I have to resume reading the last 8 minutes so maybe I should shut up but no tbh).

That means, Amy can only be a wolf with Csargo, Taffy, HK, Kage.
Amy has tried to yeet Kage. Unpaired.

Csargo, Taffy, HK.

I am town reading HK pretty strongly.

Csargo, Taffy.

I think Csargo is town due to ladd and Dya already being on Ender. HOWEVER I can see why wolves would commit 3 wolves on 1 town wagon in hopes to save Amy, but that doesnt fit the timeline of votes (and Amy's wagon rising in votes). It also doesnt fit with occam's razors. Ladd and Dya are competent wolves. Idk who Csargo is, but he seems to be competent as a player. It is better to have at least 1 more wolf on the other town wagon (Logic). Otherwise wolves are boxed in. This makes Csargo also unlikely.

So based on process of elimination, if Amy is a wolf, she can only be with Taffy.
Which would make the wagons Town vs Scum vs Town. With 2 wolves on each town wagon.

Lets see what transpires in the last 8 minutes tbh

I'm wondering why three wolves would pile on to save Amy who's really not been any kind of impactful, didn't show signs of being impactful, and generally was already scraping "disassociated wolf" reads from others in the thread. I feel like that would be antithetical to smart wolf play there. If someone not really contributing is getting sussed exerting effort like that to save them runs the risk of outing the whole team, yeah?

If you already said something just point me at the post number

[Boquise]

sup it's this one:



If you already said something just point me at the post number

i answered and wrote "Exactly"
because what you are saying is my point why i am clearing csargo tbh

[Boquise]

i'mma sleep now tbh
glgl

[hollowkatt]

i answered and wrote "Exactly"
because what you are saying is my point why i am clearing csargo tbh

cool thanks
do you think I'm wrong on Monty?

[EnderWiggin]

Migraine-y still but here to see for EOD.

Waiting to see if Taffy brings anything before death.

(Raskol pls give me updated vote-count when you can.)

[Totally not Taffy]

I don't think dya ever got established. their pushes were weak, they were thread disconnected, and they never brought any kind of case or thought to the thread that had any meat to it. That's what triggered me on dya in the first place, they were functionally the definition of milquetoast.

that being said I agree with ender and csargo here:




Wolves couldn't have expected vulgard to nuke Ladd. Nor could they have anticipated a dogpile on dya to end the day. I think, like ender and csargo do, that post ladd nuke wolves were scrambling to figure out what they could do. Do you think wolves were busing Dya and if so who are the wolves in this bucket: Taffy, HK, Boq, Renata, Ender?

Like first you call out Amy and Kage for being off wagon (while the taffy wagon was you and csargo) and now you are saying post ladd was a bus-like situation. I've got a bad feeling about you



vote: monty

The contradiction Monty pointed out in Dyachei's reads on Ladd was a very convincing argument for them being a wolf, and not something someone else was likely to point out yesterday. That's some heavy commitment to the bus there, when he could have put that energy into pushing me (or anybody else).