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Thread: Casual december game
Look, I've seen town leadership and I've seen a lot of people wolfread me. I am a commonly wolfread player, especially early into the game. I am so wolfread that me even voting a town can be seen as mafia indicative even when I killed a wolf before. My ability to project town is not there at all, or at least people's ability to figure out my alignment is not there. I've met very few people who can consistently read me well, and none of them are in this game.
I'm saying this for one reason only: I think the way you're treating me is awful and pro-mafia. If you're a wolf, you're doing great, keep it up. If you are town, you are so stuck in your own head that you're making it extremely difficult to "cooperate," let alone find wolves alongside you. I've seen good wolfreads on me, I've seen lazy wolfreads on me, I've seen it all. I know I am a hard player to read correctly, or at least when I am town. I almost never get townread. The only places where I'm able to enter towncores game after game are mashes, where I also tend to have really good reads. In that sense, it appears you and I are opposites.
But even with that in mind, your approach to my slot is frustrating - and the way you're posting, annoying. You're calling everything I do wolfy, and from my perspective, you are calling people town and mafia for bizarre reasons that do not compute to me at all. Admittedly, I have said this about Spooge and he was the night 1 kill, I recognize that, I've already said that my reads are bad. That's the reason why I'm doubting myself on wolfreading you, I think it's easily possible I'm leveling myself into the wolfread. It happens a lot. But to you, any amount of hedging in my posts, any number of thoughts you consider unsubstantiated, is wolf indicative.
You are saying I am playing exactly like in my last wolfgame. You are not wrong. My ranges are very close together. I've already said this, I am a pretty bad town and a good wolf. I am saying this entirely based on results and not self-perception, it's just true. With that in mind, is it really so surprising that I do not have a clear-cut view of the game and am not writing paragraphs upon paragraphs about someone being mafia/town? I just find it pointless. I can think someone is X alignment for X reasons and then immediately believe it's a bad read, which it often is. It's really not worth my time to devote hours to writing a case on someone only for it to be picked apart or for me to stop believing it pretty quickly, often correctly so. Like I've already said, I would rather just provide my thoughts - I am only giving a lot of reads because that's expected of me and I might get yeeted otherwise. They are and will always be malleable until I discover a process that allows me to consistently catch wolves.
Again, see Spooge, see Logic. My take on Spooge was bad and incorrect, he was the night 1 kill, at least I recognized that while alive and didn't vote him. Logic was town, I incorrectly assumed he was likely a wolf that needed to die. He became towny later, I would not have voted him had I been around as EoD, but he was probably findable before then and I just didn't. My reads are not good. My thoughts can be. That is why I try to give thoughts. In the Org game where I was the D1 ML, I had a correct assessment of the gamestate that was inconcrete but game-solving. I sometimes do have stuff like that, I just usually don't recognize which one is good.
I am repeating myself at this point. Point is, I am not your average player. I am weird! I struggle with things others generally don't, and this isn't me beating myself up, this is from experience. I'm saying this again because you seem to be ignoring all of that, Pizza, and if you are town, you are being pro-mafia with this entire thing. And it frustrates me either way, because you are expressing such confidence and being so... threadstompy, while I don't even think your logic tracks about other people. And I could be wrong to question you, sure, but the very fact you implied I was a wolf if I didn't townread you is laughable to me. That's not how any of this works. That is not how it's supposed to work.
And this is why I mentioned seeing other town leaders. I've worked with other town leaders. I've worked with town leaders who had a wolfread on me. I do not believe that you are being a good town leader. This is all about you and what you think, and while you might even be mostly correct, the way you are approaching this game frustrates me. Especially if Ender is also town. In fact, if Ender is also town, you should feel ashamed, because the way you're playing is destroying this day phase.
I don't really have a townread on Ender anymore. I am conflicted, and I am conflicted mostly because of you, as well as due to the wagon formation from yesterday - the one on Ender, of course - looking good to me. You are wolfreading several players on his wagon from yesterday, but you still think he's mafia. I don't know how to reconcile that.
My top wolfread is still Montmorency, whom you still haven't talked about at all. That's the belief substantiated with reasoning that you wanted. I might change it later! I do often change those later. But I currently hold this belief.
And I also think Taffy is definitely town, and I don't see myself changing this one. I also thought Renata's posts right now were fairly towny. Not sure if I said that earlier.
I'm saying this for one reason only: I think the way you're treating me is awful and pro-mafia. If you're a wolf, you're doing great, keep it up. If you are town, you are so stuck in your own head that you're making it extremely difficult to "cooperate," let alone find wolves alongside you. I've seen good wolfreads on me, I've seen lazy wolfreads on me, I've seen it all. I know I am a hard player to read correctly, or at least when I am town. I almost never get townread. The only places where I'm able to enter towncores game after game are mashes, where I also tend to have really good reads. In that sense, it appears you and I are opposites.
But even with that in mind, your approach to my slot is frustrating - and the way you're posting, annoying. You're calling everything I do wolfy, and from my perspective, you are calling people town and mafia for bizarre reasons that do not compute to me at all. Admittedly, I have said this about Spooge and he was the night 1 kill, I recognize that, I've already said that my reads are bad. That's the reason why I'm doubting myself on wolfreading you, I think it's easily possible I'm leveling myself into the wolfread. It happens a lot. But to you, any amount of hedging in my posts, any number of thoughts you consider unsubstantiated, is wolf indicative.
You are saying I am playing exactly like in my last wolfgame. You are not wrong. My ranges are very close together. I've already said this, I am a pretty bad town and a good wolf. I am saying this entirely based on results and not self-perception, it's just true. With that in mind, is it really so surprising that I do not have a clear-cut view of the game and am not writing paragraphs upon paragraphs about someone being mafia/town? I just find it pointless. I can think someone is X alignment for X reasons and then immediately believe it's a bad read, which it often is. It's really not worth my time to devote hours to writing a case on someone only for it to be picked apart or for me to stop believing it pretty quickly, often correctly so. Like I've already said, I would rather just provide my thoughts - I am only giving a lot of reads because that's expected of me and I might get yeeted otherwise. They are and will always be malleable until I discover a process that allows me to consistently catch wolves.
Again, see Spooge, see Logic. My take on Spooge was bad and incorrect, he was the night 1 kill, at least I recognized that while alive and didn't vote him. Logic was town, I incorrectly assumed he was likely a wolf that needed to die. He became towny later, I would not have voted him had I been around as EoD, but he was probably findable before then and I just didn't. My reads are not good. My thoughts can be. That is why I try to give thoughts. In the Org game where I was the D1 ML, I had a correct assessment of the gamestate that was inconcrete but game-solving. I sometimes do have stuff like that, I just usually don't recognize which one is good.
I am repeating myself at this point. Point is, I am not your average player. I am weird! I struggle with things others generally don't, and this isn't me beating myself up, this is from experience. I'm saying this again because you seem to be ignoring all of that, Pizza, and if you are town, you are being pro-mafia with this entire thing. And it frustrates me either way, because you are expressing such confidence and being so... threadstompy, while I don't even think your logic tracks about other people. And I could be wrong to question you, sure, but the very fact you implied I was a wolf if I didn't townread you is laughable to me. That's not how any of this works. That is not how it's supposed to work.
And this is why I mentioned seeing other town leaders. I've worked with other town leaders. I've worked with town leaders who had a wolfread on me. I do not believe that you are being a good town leader. This is all about you and what you think, and while you might even be mostly correct, the way you are approaching this game frustrates me. Especially if Ender is also town. In fact, if Ender is also town, you should feel ashamed, because the way you're playing is destroying this day phase.
I don't really have a townread on Ender anymore. I am conflicted, and I am conflicted mostly because of you, as well as due to the wagon formation from yesterday - the one on Ender, of course - looking good to me. You are wolfreading several players on his wagon from yesterday, but you still think he's mafia. I don't know how to reconcile that.
My top wolfread is still Montmorency, whom you still haven't talked about at all. That's the belief substantiated with reasoning that you wanted. I might change it later! I do often change those later. But I currently hold this belief.
And I also think Taffy is definitely town, and I don't see myself changing this one. I also thought Renata's posts right now were fairly towny. Not sure if I said that earlier.
Originally Posted by Visor:
logic thought i was wolfy specifically because he believed i had a god read on him and that me getting him wrong was wolfy
my posts p clearly indicate i was trying to work with him in spite of that to get to a correct read on him (and eventually did, before everyone else (of the logic pushers) - which nobody else has brought up but me!)
i can understand that my SOD seems like damage control - but even if you think that i think that is pretty nai - i like to apologise when i think ive made a mistake or poor play (and im more than capable of pretending to do so too as a wolf). i just dont see myself as being in danger from the logic flip (unless u want to tie me to ender which could be reasonable).
i expected csargo to hold it for a little longer and then drop it, csar has never struck me as the type as willing to do a risky play like that, but i found his reaction to it surprisingly awkward and 'weak'. but my opinion on this hardly matters. is csar is a wolf he knows i have a chance to go down today so making sure that he isnt keeping me afloat is in his best interest. if hes a villa and genuinely thinks im a wolf trying to cling to him for a lifeline id expect a stronger rebuttal, but perhaps he is just surprised and not sure how to deal with it (as either alignment).
don't think i got a huge amount out of it.
I had a townread on Csargo before but I felt his handling of your mason claim was kinda wolfy. Not sure how to substantiate this thought, though.logic thought i was wolfy specifically because he believed i had a god read on him and that me getting him wrong was wolfy
my posts p clearly indicate i was trying to work with him in spite of that to get to a correct read on him (and eventually did, before everyone else (of the logic pushers) - which nobody else has brought up but me!)
i can understand that my SOD seems like damage control - but even if you think that i think that is pretty nai - i like to apologise when i think ive made a mistake or poor play (and im more than capable of pretending to do so too as a wolf). i just dont see myself as being in danger from the logic flip (unless u want to tie me to ender which could be reasonable).
i expected csargo to hold it for a little longer and then drop it, csar has never struck me as the type as willing to do a risky play like that, but i found his reaction to it surprisingly awkward and 'weak'. but my opinion on this hardly matters. is csar is a wolf he knows i have a chance to go down today so making sure that he isnt keeping me afloat is in his best interest. if hes a villa and genuinely thinks im a wolf trying to cling to him for a lifeline id expect a stronger rebuttal, but perhaps he is just surprised and not sure how to deal with it (as either alignment).
don't think i got a huge amount out of it.
Originally Posted by Visor:
believable tbh lol
if you kept it up all day id prob have lock cleared u smh
believable tbh lol
if you kept it up all day id prob have lock cleared u smh
Originally Posted by Vulgard:
I had a townread on Csargo before but I felt his handling of your mason claim was kinda wolfy. Not sure how to substantiate this thought, though.
i dont disagree - but i do think its possible he just panicked as either alignment, so i am tossing it outI had a townread on Csargo before but I felt his handling of your mason claim was kinda wolfy. Not sure how to substantiate this thought, though.
(thinking it over, his reaction is weak enough im leaning towards townreading now)
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy:
Yeah that's what I call "hurdling"
Just the bare minimum effort to answer a question.
Why is Vulgard villagery? Oh, because he's been so villagery.
That is not even hurdling at that point, it's tripping over the hurdle.
Wolves see town solving questions as obstacles. I can link you an endgame where the townie answered my questions in detail, enlightening me as to the full depth of his thoughts, while the wolf just gave me a couple liners at most, directly responding to the question but just acting like these questions were challenges that needed to be met, at the bare minimum.
By contrast the villager was more like pole vaulting over the hurdles. Just exceeding the minimums.
Dya's response here is wolfy.
I liked Dyacheis little sus of me, felt like old times, and disappointed she?s not halfway into a death tunnel already.Yeah that's what I call "hurdling"
Just the bare minimum effort to answer a question.
Why is Vulgard villagery? Oh, because he's been so villagery.
That is not even hurdling at that point, it's tripping over the hurdle.
Wolves see town solving questions as obstacles. I can link you an endgame where the townie answered my questions in detail, enlightening me as to the full depth of his thoughts, while the wolf just gave me a couple liners at most, directly responding to the question but just acting like these questions were challenges that needed to be met, at the bare minimum.
By contrast the villager was more like pole vaulting over the hurdles. Just exceeding the minimums.
Dya's response here is wolfy.
Ngl, I have a feeling Ender is V and the top 2 wagons were V/V. Maybe Amy was a wolf being wagoned.
This is making me want to gut Montmorency more. He switched from Amy to Ender.
This is making me want to gut Montmorency more. He switched from Amy to Ender.
Originally Posted by Vulgard:
Ngl, I have a feeling Ender is V and the top 2 wagons were V/V. Maybe Amy was a wolf being wagoned.
This is making me want to gut Montmorency more. He switched from Amy to Ender.
I wouldn't say this is a good thought but I'm trying to be transparent.Ngl, I have a feeling Ender is V and the top 2 wagons were V/V. Maybe Amy was a wolf being wagoned.
This is making me want to gut Montmorency more. He switched from Amy to Ender.
Originally Posted by Vulgard:
Ngl, I have a feeling Ender is V and the top 2 wagons were V/V. Maybe Amy was a wolf being wagoned.
This is making me want to gut Montmorency more. He switched from Amy to Ender.
montmorency voted at eod solely to tie it upNgl, I have a feeling Ender is V and the top 2 wagons were V/V. Maybe Amy was a wolf being wagoned.
This is making me want to gut Montmorency more. He switched from Amy to Ender.
its his thing he does - he did that to kill ladd in the sorc game too
Boquise (2): Ender, Visor
Visor (1): HK
Vulgard (1): pizza
Monty (1): Vulgard
Ender (1): Renata
Visor (1): HK
Vulgard (1): pizza
Monty (1): Vulgard
Ender (1): Renata
How was I supposed to handle it?
I've seen this story before, and the person in Visor's position was a woof iirc. There's a lot of reasons why I didn't want to go along with it long-term.
I've seen this story before, and the person in Visor's position was a woof iirc. There's a lot of reasons why I didn't want to go along with it long-term.
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy:
Did you not see me suss Ampharos all day?
Generally villagers try to yeet their suspects.
But a large enough flashwagon killed Logic that voting blade or amy wouldn't have mattered, and both were suspects of mine.
Why Ampharos over Ender, to clarify. I think Ender had more votes and I?m sure he wound up with more.Did you not see me suss Ampharos all day?
Generally villagers try to yeet their suspects.
But a large enough flashwagon killed Logic that voting blade or amy wouldn't have mattered, and both were suspects of mine.
Originally Posted by Csargo:
How was I supposed to handle it?
I've seen this story before, and the person in Visor's position was a woof iirc. There's a lot of reasons why I didn't want to go along with it long-term.
I just felt the fact you acknowledged it at first but then denied it upon being questioned about it felt like a wolf trying to take advantage of somebody's attempt to align with you but no longer doing it once realizing it might make you looks sus.How was I supposed to handle it?
I've seen this story before, and the person in Visor's position was a woof iirc. There's a lot of reasons why I didn't want to go along with it long-term.
That is certainly a sentence, sorry about that.
Originally Posted by Visor:
montmorency voted at eod solely to tie it up
its his thing he does - he did that to kill ladd in the sorc game too
Okay, I guess?montmorency voted at eod solely to tie it up
its his thing he does - he did that to kill ladd in the sorc game too
Does he do this even if he doesn't wolfread either player?
Originally Posted by Vulgard:
Okay, I guess?
Does he do this even if he doesn't wolfread either player?
yep lolOkay, I guess?
Does he do this even if he doesn't wolfread either player?
he just does it to create info
nearly every game he can (pretty sure its just a NAI thing for him)
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy:
I currently think she is a villager who doesn't know what she's doing as there hasn't been any useful info so she's grasping at a lot of names she doesn't trust and doesn't have a reason to make a big towncore because that's not her style even though that is the current meta for MU players is building big towncores.
To be more specific, I?m been burned a lot towncoring wolves and I?m sick of it and don?t want to do it anymore.I currently think she is a villager who doesn't know what she's doing as there hasn't been any useful info so she's grasping at a lot of names she doesn't trust and doesn't have a reason to make a big towncore because that's not her style even though that is the current meta for MU players is building big towncores.
Originally Posted by Visor:
yep lol
he just does it to create info
nearly every game he can (pretty sure its just a NAI thing for him)
This is definitely going to mess up some of my analysis. Does he ever vote for people he actually wolfreads, then?yep lol
he just does it to create info
nearly every game he can (pretty sure its just a NAI thing for him)
Originally Posted by Renata:
To be more specific, I?m been burned a lot towncoring wolves and I?m sick of it and don?t want to do it anymore.
I've been burned a lot wolfreading villagers!To be more specific, I?m been burned a lot towncoring wolves and I?m sick of it and don?t want to do it anymore.
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin:
I feel like I'm in a weird world where Pizza's solving makes no sense to me. This isn't normally how it goes.
He?s got nearly all the same suspects as me. This makes me happy and also makes me want to throw him off a cliff so I can read his guts.I feel like I'm in a weird world where Pizza's solving makes no sense to me. This isn't normally how it goes.
Originally Posted by Vulgard:
I just felt the fact you acknowledged it at first but then denied it upon being questioned about it felt like a wolf trying to take advantage of somebody's attempt to align with you but no longer doing it once realizing it might make you looks sus.
That is certainly a sentence, sorry about that.
If I was a woof, I would have just told Visor to I just felt the fact you acknowledged it at first but then denied it upon being questioned about it felt like a wolf trying to take advantage of somebody's attempt to align with you but no longer doing it once realizing it might make you looks sus.
That is certainly a sentence, sorry about that.
off tbh, but I guess that's not something that anyone would be able to verify.Originally Posted by Vulgard:
This is definitely going to mess up some of my analysis. Does he ever vote for people he actually wolfreads, then?
he def does - just at eod (at least on d1) he likes to force things to be a tieThis is definitely going to mess up some of my analysis. Does he ever vote for people he actually wolfreads, then?
Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy:
Right now I want to kill two names in this list:
Vulgard
Dyachei
Enderwiggin
Visor
Amy
Top to bottom is my current priority.
And then I want to yeet a third name.
Now you people whose names appear on this list tell me why I should or should not kill a different name on that list in the time you have remaining.
Give me reasons on every name.
If you don't cooperate, then you're not solving, and for reasons, I don't want to blow up someone who isn't solving.
I want to yeet someone who isn't solving due to how my role works.
I think Dyachei?s defense kind of spews Amy town if Dya isn?t.Right now I want to kill two names in this list:
Vulgard
Dyachei
Enderwiggin
Visor
Amy
Top to bottom is my current priority.
And then I want to yeet a third name.
Now you people whose names appear on this list tell me why I should or should not kill a different name on that list in the time you have remaining.
Give me reasons on every name.
If you don't cooperate, then you're not solving, and for reasons, I don't want to blow up someone who isn't solving.
I want to yeet someone who isn't solving due to how my role works.
Spooge reads (with the caveat that I think ladd would be lower given he voted them)
Town
Cape
Hollowkatt
Ampharos
Little Bit Towny
Mont
Blade
Dya
Ladd
Meh
Visor
Sorta Wolfy
Taffy
Boq
Kage
Quite Wolfy
Logic
Pizza
Vulgard
I want to look into that sorta wolfy pile
id love people to talk about boq some more
just seems like a wolf to me
Town
Cape
Hollowkatt
Ampharos
Little Bit Towny
Mont
Blade
Dya
Ladd
Meh
Visor
Sorta Wolfy
Taffy
Boq
Kage
Quite Wolfy
Logic
Pizza
Vulgard
I want to look into that sorta wolfy pile
id love people to talk about boq some more
just seems like a wolf to me
Vote: Dyachei
Making dinner and family time, Im not reading or processing right now.
This is my default vote for today as I am probably not detonating her.
Making dinner and family time, Im not reading or processing right now.
This is my default vote for today as I am probably not detonating her.
Originally Posted by Kagemusha:
Afternoon folks! Ok. It seems we are starting to have some meat around the bones so does speak. So im gonna dig in the thread and give some impressions ive got so far. This might take a while.
Kage! I noticed your greetings vote when rereading the thread yesterday. Good to see you.Afternoon folks! Ok. It seems we are starting to have some meat around the bones so does speak. So im gonna dig in the thread and give some impressions ive got so far. This might take a while.
Role is not standard and dyachei is too busy to process the game so I can't risk it on her.
That has to be sorted by yeet or not yeeting her.
You will see why when my role is revealed.
That has to be sorted by yeet or not yeeting her.
You will see why when my role is revealed.
Rethinking Ender's reads from the start of this day phase, I see why they are wolfy.
renata, vulgard, pizza,
thoughts on boq?
thoughts on boq?
Specifically why.
Originally Posted by Visor:
renata, vulgard, pizza,
thoughts on boq?
I can’t do it while I’m stuck on my phone, too hard. Yesterday was reading them as fine, probably just town, until I saw luvs read and that made me reconsider. But I haven’t looked properly.renata, vulgard, pizza,
thoughts on boq?
Kind of on my to do list.
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