i am kinda frustrated that i did not vote kage there when he was my first scum read and all. I realise that I have been leveling too much in this game, and assumed Kage was town based on how I imagine wolves in general would think
Mafia being real pricks with the kills lately. Why would you ever even kill Amy, she?s perfect lurkbait for storming LYLO with.
No one here seems to believe it?s Boq, whose case I?ve laid out. Certainly though I can?t see him killing Amy solo when clearing her looks so bad for him. But who would really? Not even a wacky deep-sea m-Ender should see advantage to it.
Csargo has had few good posts, and that terrible, terrible case on Renata, while Boq has made a mid-game effort to post well, second after me. However, he has so many hateful associatives with ladd and dya, Patric. How they were all bouncing off each other on Amy and Vulgard, whereas Csargo's few associatives lean heavily anti-pair rather than pair. Either of them could easily be partners with Csargo. If it?s Csargo, he and Kage spent the past two days engaged in Level 1 distancing.
I will have more opportunity tomorrow.
based on last eod: csargo, ender and hk all clear Vote Monty
we have two yeets left and thankfully scum can only be within us two, so even if I die today you'll go down tomorrow tbh
Boq, meanwhile, talked very well but almost always held thread position in favour of the wolves. Csargo/Monty held a much more natural thread position for all the reread I have.
@EnderWiggin I'm reminded that this post exists which came about from boq trying to figure out how to pair or unpair people and obvs hindsight is hindsight but it reads entirely like building a world that couldn't exist and the question I'm asking myself is this: could we have determined that this world couldn't exist at the time that this was posted.
Boq spends an extraordinary amount of time talking about everyone but Kage and halfheartedly clears Kage via a single throwaway line about how Ladd wouldn't have done xyz.
I know I had Boq as town the last couple of days but I have more reasons to town read you and monty than I do Boq, maybe more reasons to town read csargo but I can't commit to that at the moment.
for now vote: boq
I'm still looking for that conversation I had with boq regarding ladd/dya/amy
and i was really proud of that kage/ladd disassociation too
damn you ladd
Originally Posted by hollowkatt
@Boquise I don't remember, did you ever get back to me on this?
like i am okay with dying but if HK and Ender will then in lylo just sleep walk into a Csargo yeet when he was one of the three players yeeting Kage I wont die quietly. It will be total war in the thread tbh
I agree that Monty has been very townie, and there are reasons to town read him, such as how he handled renata, but there is nothing that is clearing. It is just words. Csargo on the other hand was one of the three people voting Kage in a lylo that could have easily been Amy going over. A 2 vote lead that she had is fickle which scum should have known, so I dont get why csargo would park on Kage as scum. And like all Kage did the day prior was to vote Csargo too.
Boq, I'm happy to listen to you talk about Csargo. I had reasons to townread Monty although not all of them are amazing.
Talk to me about how Monty is wolf and Csargo is town. I've outlined why I probably am not letting you see tomorrow, sorry. But if you earnestly believe I'm on the wrong track on Csargo and think Monty should be the other wolf, throw what you have at me and I promise I will read it all and listen.
1. Very bold statement pinging his allies, although in retrospect maybe this isn't a great reason.
2. Actively brought attention to Kage even though he wasn't voting Kage at the end.
3. Why is Csargo clear from voting Kage when they cross voted and it was 1 more vote on Amy before EOD. Level 1 distancing that HK and I ruined by shafting Kage at EOD?
4. There was also a few POE posts where Monty actually had almost all the wolves POE'd.
The single best argument in favor of Csargo. In a perfect wagon spread on a near-perfect day for scum, why does dyachei become third on t-Ender wagon for a totally-impure wagon? Sure, maybe the low stakes of the day stirred dya to insure some deep WIFOM, but... Moreover, assuming an aversion to clumping fits well with the interpretation that in D2 below,
dya wagoned onto Ender after ladd and Boq, but the concentration was unstable and so dya and Boq spread out onto other MLs by EOD. I refuse to believe that Visor's wagon was pure, given that he and Cape were the top in-thread threat to ladd, dya, and Kage at that time - and Cape paid for that with his life that night.
So to recap, it all makes sense if Boq is scum. Scum don't want to triple up when 90+% of the wagon threat is to townies, and they actively avoid bunching together D2.
I'll review the data on interactions later, hopefully adding in Kage interactions.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Mafia being real pricks with the kills lately. Why would you ever even kill Amy, she?s perfect lurkbait for storming LYLO with.
No one here seems to believe it?s Boq, whose case I?ve laid out. Certainly though I can?t see him killing Amy solo when clearing her looks so bad for him. But who would really? Not even a wacky deep-sea m-Ender should see advantage to it.
Csargo has had few good posts, and that terrible, terrible case on Renata, while Boq has made a mid-game effort to post well, second after me. However, he has so many hateful associatives with ladd and dya, Patric. How they were all bouncing off each other on Amy and Vulgard, whereas Csargo's few associatives lean heavily anti-pair rather than pair. Either of them could easily be partners with Csargo. If it?s Csargo, he and Kage spent the past two days engaged in Level 1 distancing.
I will have more opportunity tomorrow.
This is why I detest mobile-posting. My post contains some autocorrect or deletion errors.
"Either of [ladd, dya] could easily be partners with [Boq]"
I don't know what "Patric" was supposed to mean.
Originally Posted by hollowkatt
if I had to take a guess it would be b/c kage voted amy after the deadline passed and raskol closed the day. Like ok timestamp reads or something but Rask posts the vote count at EOD-3 minutes. Calls D5 over at 7:01pm eastern time.
Kage votes Amy at 7:03 eastern. That's enough of a time gap to basically lock the last wolf into killing Amy b/c they can't use her as a chop after that.
If both you and Ender say it's so, there must be something to that, but if it's Boq he should have taken her to LYLO with Csargo. Something to ask Kage about too.
Originally Posted by Boquise
@Montmorency
why is it that Taffy town hurts Csargo and is this something you still think?
Super-basic negative credit for trying to make Taffy a counterwagon to dya on D3.
Dya (3): Ender, Vulgard, Renata
Taffy (1): Monty <
Monty(1): HK
Kage (1): Amy
HK (1): Kagemusha
I already covered D3 analysis: while it's a bad look, this was near EOD, and if scum Csargo presumably would have known whether or not dya and Kage would be available and willing to try to push the Tdome for a rescue.
It's worse for Csargo that Renata N4 when she was IIRC the only player pressuring him (other than Amp and Kage), but even there Renata was pressuring Boq most of all, arguably more than I was.
Originally Posted by Boquise
like i am okay with dying but if HK and Ender will then in lylo just sleep walk into a Csargo yeet when he was one of the three players yeeting Kage I wont die quietly. It will be total war in the thread tbh
Why was Kage voting Csargo with no case or hope of building a wagon twice in a row midgame? Or in other words, if you are town, and I am town, who could the final maf possibly be?
ngl Csargo's slanking, and gradual dip/passivity, make him look much worse than you in a vacuum. And it is tough to see your strategy in NKing Amy when you could just pit Csargo or Ender against her during LYLO. Kage's late vote could be written off as potato rolling.
Whereas Csargo's play so far in mid-game, at least, is consistent with standard maf strategy (non-power).
I'll roll out interactions again later and see what comes of it.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Boq, I'm happy to listen to you talk about Csargo. I had reasons to townread Monty although not all of them are amazing.
Talk to me about how Monty is wolf and Csargo is town. I've outlined why I probably am not letting you see tomorrow, sorry. But if you earnestly believe I'm on the wrong track on Csargo and think Monty should be the other wolf, throw what you have at me and I promise I will read it all and listen.
who has through posts worked for a space in the towncore that will make them difficult to yeet?
and who voted a wolf yesterday?
It is completely cool to have me in the poe and misyeet me today. I understand it. I was on the counter-wagon of yesterday when wolves could have made today lylo. Monty was on the counter wagon too. It is pro wolf to vote Amy yesterday.
the problem with csargo wolf is that then he played like a standard wolf with a very basic plan with very little fall-throughs, given how him and kage voted each other. It is very level 1. Again, I have not played with Csargo before and if he is bad at being a wolf, then sure, lets go. But thinking that there is no intellectual foresight behind a wolf's play is how we misyeet town.
but yeah, both ender town and csargo town means that both main wagons of d1 and d2 solely consisted of town so like lol
i feel like my words can negatively affect the upcoming lylo, considering i have been so hilariously wrong and basically been a liability for town, so i will not post much thoughts going forward tbh
hk, csargo, ender and me have all been primitive in our reactions
basically "boquise is scum brrrrr" or "monty is scum brrrrr" whereas Monty is building worlds in where both me and csargo could be scum/town. Which creates a game plan for the next day come my flip. Whats csargo's game plan? Bench on doing nothing and let hk and ender rip me apart?
1. Very bold statement pinging his allies, although in retrospect maybe this isn't a great reason.
2. Actively brought attention to Kage even though he wasn't voting Kage at the end.
3. Why is Csargo clear from voting Kage when they cross voted and it was 1 more vote on Amy before EOD. Level 1 distancing that HK and I ruined by shafting Kage at EOD?
4. There was also a few POE posts where Monty actually had almost all the wolves POE'd.
Lemme check EOD wagons again.
i brought attention to kage too. At eod i even began solving and contemplating why he began posting and stuff. Why would I do that as w/w with him? It is not even distancing.
i dont know. Why am i wolf for voting amy then?
yeh but were monty behind most of those wolves' deaths?
That's pretty much my thoughts as well. Me and Boq can't win the game if either of us are wolfs, because the kills over the last few days just box us in. My posting and voting record are atrocious as multiple people have pointed out and Boq has posted solidly for most of the game, but doesn't have strong anti-alignments with flipped wolves. I've never played with Boq, but I doubt they'd screw themselves over this badly if they're a wolf.
Originally Posted by Sooh
I wonder if I can make Csargo cry harder by doing everyone but his ISO.
hk, csargo, ender and me have all been primitive in our reactions
basically "boquise is scum brrrrr" or "monty is scum brrrrr" whereas Monty is building worlds in where both me and csargo could be scum/town. Which creates a game plan for the next day come my flip. Whats csargo's game plan? Bench on doing nothing and let hk and ender rip me apart?
"Plan" = POE. Everyone here has offered a POE at various times.
Can you describe how I've been implementing the plan? As scum I would seem to do the minimum to build cred from every one of the flips, and have been killing people who posed the least threat to me.
Look at this here from the Dya-Kage assoc catalogue,
#1152: After reading D1 Kage offers his leans, with the following scummy (top to bottom): Monty dyachei Vulgard cape90 Hollowkatt [This is a common sweet spot to slot partners into]
Kage specifically found dya scummy for "(#751 second follow Ender)." This refers to her naked vote on Ender, third on the wagon, tieing with Logic. ["third vote is a wagon is scum" is an Old Gameroom superstition that Kage would be familiar with as an OG. On the other hand, ladd was clearly making a strategy around pushing Ender, one that dya was implementing, so this could also be Kage in on the deal.]
I caught Kage slotting his partner 4th in POE in a classic tell, and I didn't try to work the information to my advantage at all.
Or from the ladd ISO:
#1152: In his leans post, Kage has ladd as the only member of the "town leaning" bucket, specifically for his original case against Logic. However, he also finds ladd's entry - voting Logic out of nowhere - to be scummy. [???]
In the #1600s Visor cases Ladd, as well as Taffy, dya, and HK. See character logs at the top - interesting that at the same time, Kage and dya - in response to Visor - had the same low-detail TLs on ladd and taffy.
Kage was no doubt not intended to LYLO. There's only one candidate for distancing between Kage and final scum, and that's Csargo.
Have I been making too many excuses for Csargo? Ladd-dya was famously a Six Flags water slide kind of relationship. Kage had a number of weirdly transparent associations with ladd and dya. Maybe I read too much caution into the Mafia team dynamic, wrongly ruling out Csargo for ladd-Csargo-dya on Ender or the effort to save dya D3. Could it be Csargo has slanked since D3 with bare votes, and tried to Level 1 distance his remaining partner with mutual votes even as he NKed to frame Boq?
WHY wouldn't m-Csargo kill Ender here? Renata N4, fine, a dangerous-for-town kill that either Boq or Csargo could make. But N5, why spare Ender when Amy almost certainly won't make a solid showing of herself against you? It's not like I don't still POE Boq in that scenario.
I'd also like to ask Csargo who he would POE if not me.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
The single best argument in favor of Csargo. In a perfect wagon spread on a near-perfect day for scum, why does dyachei become third on t-Ender wagon for a totally-impure wagon? Sure, maybe the low stakes of the day stirred dya to insure some deep WIFOM, but... Moreover, assuming an aversion to clumping fits well with the interpretation that in D2 below,
dya wagoned onto Ender after ladd and Boq, but the concentration was unstable and so dya and Boq spread out onto other MLs by EOD. I refuse to believe that Visor's wagon was pure, given that he and Cape were the top in-thread threat to ladd, dya, and Kage at that time - and Cape paid for that with his life that night.
So to recap, it all makes sense if Boq is scum. Scum don't want to triple up when 90+% of the wagon threat is to townies, and they actively avoid bunching together D2.
csargo - similarish to renata but a bit less strong. good thoughts/solving
dya - i havent been too hot in reading dya lately but i think the way they are making reads at their own pace and the SNARK everytime anyone dares to shade or wolf read them is >>>rand villa
upper PoE (mostly villa leans that i don't feel strong enough about)
boq- has done even less than me eheh. but when he posts i agree with everything he says just dunno if its enough to really move him up
Here are Csargo's associations with ladd/dya:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
LADD
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
#1166: Renata tells ladd how to clear multiquotes.
#1167: Csargo affirms Renata's answer.
#1561: Ladd as part of reads post, asking Visor about Orgahs: renata/csargo both seem v villagery
#1579: From large reads post: leaning villa
csargo - similarish to renata but a bit less strong. good thoughts/solving
#1693: Visor @s Csargo for opinion on Taffy and ladd, Csargo responds in #1714.
#1714: I'll look at taffy and ladd again, my impression was they're both town. Feel like the stuff you said about taffy could easily be v stuff to me. Ladd was just feelies, felt good about their posting as they were catching up.
#1827: I think [Visor] more likely to be a woof than Taffy, maybe even ladd as well.
DYA
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
#344: Dya asks Csargo about Logic meta since Csargo is SRing Logic. Csargo doesn't know.
#355: dya comments "i feel like exactly the people i would expect to be wolf read pre-rand are the ones people are most concerned about" and Csargo asks if they mean Logic and Ender. Dya say's Amy.
#540: Responding to a Logic reads posts that has one sentence mentioning that dya being comfortable is scummy, Csargo says "I could see dya, don't get visor tho. I don't know anything about town dya though, I don't think." Logic in #676 finds reason to TR dya.
#659: To Vulgard lamenting a wasted day if Logic is town: If Logic's town we just yeet visor for funsies. prob dya as well. Csargo currently believes m-Logic and t/t Visor-dya.
#1328: In the middle of commentary responding to Taffy: "No idea what to make of the dya[-HK] back and forth."
#1446: Csargo questions dya's play: "A significant portion of dya's iso is either defending/explaining why logic/ampharos/vulgard are town. Is this normal? Does town Dya just defend their townreads a lot? Dya called cape and taffy v, but I didn't really see much else."
Here are Boq's associations with ladd/dya:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
LADD
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
First interactions in #430s about posting gifs
#1240: Boq decides to TR ladd and sheep onto Ender because of ladd's posting since #1160, specifically quoting the D1 summary. also, if amy is a wolf it means i was awesome yesterday tbh
#1555: Ladd says "i can see this [...] kage also kinda fits with literally any team" in response to Boq finding one of Kage's posts scummy.
#1579: From large reads post: upper PoE (mostly villa leans that i don't feel strong enough about)
boq- has done even less than me eheh. but when he posts i agree with everything he says just dunno if its enough to really move him up
#1764: In humoring Visor's requesst to talk about something other than Visor/Ender: lettuce talk super briefly (cause i gotta go and i am already late lol) about dya and boq
imo dya was very villagery last couple of pages, i feel the renata/HK pushes are the "hipster" pushes dya makes as a villager where they think they latch onto something and go for it despite what everyone else thinks
#1767 completing the thought on Boq: boq idk
i am not the best boq reader. he has felt very chill this game and i havent really disagreed with anything he has said
i also think he defended a lot of people i think are villagers so that wins him points too
but clearly none of those things are impossible to fake as a wolf
#1769: kage feels like someone who is gonna die to the villagers regardless of alignment best i got is that he is not w/w with boq (probably)
#1804: Boq asks ladd what info an Ender ouster will offer
#1810: When Ender suggests a Ladd/Visor team: Ladd said he was leaning on Visor wolf tho
#1816: Boq asks ladd to read him and soon realizes ladd did, quoting the post.
#1832: TRs ladd for a post lamenting the non-casual nature of the game.
#1836: Says "Mmmmh" to a ladd post telling Ender that he is his top SR.
#1908: Boq examines ladd's possible motivations as scum, concluding that "I think by occam's razors, ladd is town tbh. It is way more similar to his modus operandi as town than scum tbh."
#1920: Leans list with ladd as lowest town. Ladd unpaired with both Visor and Ender.
DYA
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
#389: Dya greets Boq. Boq reciprocates.
#410/12/17/35/39/46/51: Dya complains about wall-posts and boq jibes "i gift you a weak scum lean tbh." Dya retorts that not liking wall-posts is not AI, but Boq feels "it is a sort of contribution i have seen wolves do tbh." Dya reminds him that he's seen townies do it too, but Boq believes that "yes but in general it is wolfy to whine about walls and do nothing else tbh because it is a super easy thing to do whilst you stay relevant in the thread conscious." Dya says that they haven't been doing nothing but whining about walls.
#419/38: Dya questions the validity (via Boq's approbation) of Pizza's suspicion of Vulgard's level of tilt; dya finds annoyance non-indicative and references own experience. Boq agrees but considers disproportionate annoyance scum-leaning in a vacuum. But Boq now wishes to rescind this impression of Vulgard as the latter has posted more.
#426: Boq tells Pizza he's rescinding the weak scum read on dya.
#603: Boq finds dya towny for persisting in the long exchange (see above) even though Boq rescinded the FoS already.
#719: After losing weak TL on Amp and voting her, town reads:
cape, vulgard
town leans:
visor, dya, hk, luvs
#720: Dya immediately reacts to the above with "how did the thread react and what do you think about it?" [I don't understand what this means.] Boq says thread didn't react and discusses impressions of Kage, Logic, and Visor, concluding with light FoS on Kage. Logic finds this exchange scummy for dya in #736.
#1245-84: Boq quotes a Vulgard post to dya asking if that's the one they disliked. Dya acknowledges it, describing the Vulg post as "wolfy backtalk." But Boq finds it TWTBAW. Dya responds that she thinks Vulgard was caught in a lie. Boq still doesn't believe m-Vulgard would be "textbook wolfy."
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Kage-Csargo early game: Kage opens content-wise by RVS Csargo. He later comments on Csargo jokingly calling himself scummy to Pizza by RVS Renata and telling Csargo that
"Certain amount of bloodthirst is in order to flush mafia out." Csargo does not respond in either case, though he does respond to a contemporaneous dya question about Csargo's shade on Logic and Csargo's meta thereon.
Kage-Boq early game:
Kage-Boq-Csargo D3:
I just don't have time to do these rn
Kage-Boq-Csargo D4:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Kage reads D3 wagonomics:
Townish
Renata, Taffy, Boque
neutral
Monty, Amy
Kage votes Csargo. Csarg suggests Amy/Kage/Boq. Boq asks about this.
Boq pushes Amy-Kage for the sake of TRing Csargo after having said "Amy has tried to yeet Kage. Unpaired." However, ladd-Kage interactions leave Boq at t-Kage. Boq points out Cape could have been killed for voting Kage once.
Originally Posted by Boquise
I feel like Kage was a vanity wagon made in hope to remove the oomph from the main wagons
Originally Posted by hollowkatt
kage on D3 never got higher than 2: amy/monty
Originally Posted by Boquise
A counterwagon gotta start somewhere - doesn't mean an attempt will always be successful. I think if Kage is town then Amy/Monty have higher scum equity. Monty has however been townsiding imo yesterday so I am more into Amy.
Like, remember how ladd treated my FoS on Kage. He encouraged it, gave it his blessings. I do not think he does that to a LHF wolf teammate. Ladd knows by now that it is easy to make me doubt by questioning my reads tbh
Kage-Boq-Csargo D5:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by Kage
townish
Boque, Monty
[...]
My vote is the same as yesterday. Csargo is flying under the radar. Leaving reasoning for his votes to other people, like Monty yesterday. You should look at him closer and draw the right conclusions. Vote: Csargo
@Boquise Sorry, English is not my native language, so sometimes my sentences can be quite confusing. What i mean is that yesterday Csargo was using Monty?s reasoning for his voting. Hiding behind it. Earlier he was using Visor?s reasoning, which enabled him to fly under the radar, since the decision making process is not his own. You can find my reasoning from post #2508 where im placing you at that scale based on your voting behaviour concerning Dya?s lynch.
Originally Posted by Boquise
mmmh alright, thanks tbh
Originally Posted by Boquise
Vote Amy
Ultimately, I think it is easier to solve Csargo than Amy and Kage
Originally Posted by Boquise
i have some updated thoughts but will wait to talk about them until tomorrow
kinda miffed that kage appeared to answer a question and then just dipped again. Makes me feel like theres some lurking going on
Kage offered no reasons for TRing Boq. Csargo parked on Kage D5, offered the terrible Kage/Amy solve, reasoning that "Kage's only engaged the game on the surface, and in the later phases with decreased volume that shouldn't be happening imo." (Kage had earlier made his case against Csargo for sheeping me.)
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Csargo interactions/associations are tangentially antagonistic, whereas Boq's are broader and more collaborative, engaging in shallow interactions and fishing for TLs on dya and ladd. Could be supporting Mafia manipulation of vibes around Vulgard, Ender, Visor, Amp, etc. Also, Boq popping in together with ladd at EOD to deflect from pressure on dya and keep the MLs on track. #1908 and the D1 dya interactions (see ISOs) work great as distancing theater.
Boq fits with ladd/dya much better than Csargo does.
However, Kage - who was basically sweet-spot POEed by both dya and ladd with zero direct interactions - Kage assoc looks bad for Csargo, though not necessarily good for Boq.
Csargo sheeping on Taffy D3/4 a bad look.
But again, that N5 kill. Why wouldn't Csargo kill HK over Amy? Or at the VERY least, kill Amy N6. In Boq's case, an Amy kill is a bad option IMO but at least I can say killing me or HK is a less-good option for Boq than it is for Csargo. But we're deep in the informatic-asymmetry quest here.
I still haven't finished ISOing Kage, but maybe for now this from D4 without progression leans me toward Boq.
Originally Posted by Boquise
Amy has tried to yeet Kage. Unpaired.
\
Originally Posted by Boquise
i am not sure why you completely remove amy and kage as a relationship, so you could elaborate there tbh!
But maybe this is why Amy died?
Originally Posted by Ampharos
leaves boq/kage/csargo to contain 2? and if i commit to boq/kage being unpaired, then
Vote: Csargo
mafia is so easy(?)
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
I didn't sheep anyone onto Taffy, pretty sure I made a few posts surrounding why I was voting there. No reason for me to kill Renata to shade Boq, when Renata was tring me, and I could just keep them around to push Boq. Then just have two townies duking it out to distract people.
I don't really have a PoE outside of you tbh, I expect to die here today hopefully.
Originally Posted by Sooh
I wonder if I can make Csargo cry harder by doing everyone but his ISO.
Originally Posted by Raskolnikov
Re: Casual december game
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