13er summer game thread

[Cuthillius]

I believe you, buddy. No problem. right now it's he/she said, but since we both know the score of what's REALLY going on, I'll save it for post game and tell you in more detail why I thought certain things and even if you disagree if we ever play again (...and I hope we do, as I have found your play good and not problematic for me at all, but I will understand if it isnt mutual) you will know the things I read into so you can trick me next time.

fantastic

[katze]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053848445

i feel like i can solve the game based off of this post alone i just need to figure out how

[Achro]

THESIS TIME (will try not to write an actual thesis)

really i wish i had more questions to ask but i feel like 90% of my doubts with you are like... the SK shit. and ive asked questions about that

but sure, fuck it, maybe it'll help. can you just like... outline your progression on SK from his first post until his death? like an entire fuckin thesis

i need to get better at asking questions you're right

Okay so I obviously have played with SK before, poked him in the ribs about champs, and didn't think much about him until I saw his ‘opening wall’ which FMPOV had two town people listed as two wolves, so I wanted to respond to it to both explain my own actions and defend my town read, below.

Hello @SilverKeith two questions. Why is it unlike me to try new things? If I recall the last game we played together, draft mafia, opened with me doing something new and interesting as well. I would say it's fairly typical in games with new conditions for me to experiment.

102 is not wolf indicative for me I am afraid. I just replaced a generic reason to wolf read ladd a little with what I felt was a stronger one to tr him. Don't see why you feel that is something that is firmly in the domain of wolf achro vs town achro. What is your experience with my wolf game?

As for Taffy first off way to shade my town sorting process, but also most would agree with the process I use to sort townirs being as you described so fair.

Anyway I don't know taffy's meta but to explain I think generally it is very town indicative to look for gotchas like Taffy did with me. I feel it is more likely villagers look at past games AND also villagers don't really consider the results before cherrypicking data. Taffy got my post count right and said 'how are you going to struggle to solve?' And didn't stop to ask if I was a wolf. Or I'd town killed any wolves. Or if I posted the last day for their posts per day to be accurate. Felt very cute and town to me.

Now if this is stuff Taffy does all the time as a wolf someone will have to let me know.

Hmm

Not sure how to feel about the wall tbh. It feels like commentaryvanyone could say. It's all fine but not hearing town in you quite yet. It's not disagreeable in its conclusions but I also dont understand why you think Taffy is the best vote in wolf achro worlds as I think I would be TMIing them town if wolf with my town read of them attempting to disarm them like I did. I guess you don't need to worry too much about pairing thoughts before any flips though and maybe thats the case here.

Can you link a wolf game where you reference other games for your first vote? I find this is usually town more than scum at a rate much higher than rand in my experience and would like to see otherwise.

If Taffy does this type of thing as a wolf with proof then they haven't done much else and fair, but it would for sure never be my first thought to think wolf.

Wall was ok although not out of sk's scum range and catchup walls are kind of the easiest thing to fake. Good look if I am wrong about Taffy though as sk could have easily pivoted to me instead.

So let me break down my thought process behind why I asked the things I did and say the things I said here. First, as I said in our last encounter I did something kind of neat that actually outed a wolf early on (...that I also let go day 1, fuck SK is a jinx) so I didn’t know why SK would have that read as town.

I thought the point about 102 was poor and for sure not AI for me, so mentioned it to him.

He then calls my town read of Taffy ‘illegitimate’ which is interesting because as I replied yeah, a
lot of people think so so har har. I couldn’t argue that point.So then I went into more detail for SK my read because yeah wolf achro will fudge stuff like this, it’s a fair critique objectively and I am working on explaining my reads better, and leaving off with hey if taffy is a known trickster, someone let me know. No one ever really indicated that, so my TR of taffy held until they were gone.

Then I sat back and reflected on the way the wall was written and it didn’t feel great, I felt a sense of ‘it’s fine…I guess?’ but I couldn’t understand why you would ever go after Taffy of all people and not me given my history of good wolf play. If SK had us both as wolves, I would think pushing me into more votes when I had 2-3 at the time (I think benneh JUST voted before the wall dropped) would be a good move to pressure me. If I think there is a good scum player, I want to pressure them.

So then I ask him to provide a specific game for his vote reasoning on Taffy because I didn’t like the vote at all, referencing my cited theory on taffy’s vote and wanting to see where HIS mind was at for why he thought that was a good vote. It was meant to challenge him to provide evidence and foundation for disagreeing with my town read, because my town reads are usually pretty good so I wanted to see history with Taffy.

I then ended this first post thinking I was a little weirded out but it would take me more reflecting to go ‘ehh I shouldn’t actually give this a pass’ because my parting commenting about walls being easy to fake lingered with me.


I will post this now so you don’t have to read a whole thesis at once, but this concludes my thoughts on one post.

…

I am so sorry.

[Achro]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053848445

i feel like i can solve the game based off of this post alone i just need to figure out how

'does wolf achro really control + f the word 'visor' on his phone for a afternoon to make a case for someone who is publicly red checked but he knows isn't a wolf to then link this non red checked person to two people exclusively over dozens of posts and digging into micro tells of partnerships he knows is completely fabricated instead of doing literally anything else with his time.'

(the answer is no. I fell for the FPS of Ender because I was town and happily did this work. That is 22000 words of text. Some quoted, but oh my god I spent time on that)

[Achro]

Actually maybe lean wolf which is a little annoying because in one post SK has more content than most of the player list. This day feels destined for a chop of a villager unless I am wrong on Taffy being one. Not feeling a lot of thoughts from a lot of people hmm.

I guess my problem is I don't understand the town thought process behind not voting me there if you think I am a wolf. I am very active and also in my mind kind of unpaired with Taffy for the way I talked about him as the good thing to do there w/w is to get into some type of scuffle not top town them and praise them which I feel like can be considered much more pockety than whatever I did with ladd in that post. It feels unintuitive to me. Why read intentions into ladd interaction when the wolf achro/town Taffy ones are much more obvious. I also feel like your reasoning for Taffy is weak unless this is firmly in their usual scum initiative.

Further, it feels like the difference between these two events is commenting on ladd also allows you to smoothly town read ladd almost in the background which feels unpartnered to me.

So while I don't expect this to go anywhere since you posted a nice wall and 50 posts is not going to give me any thread pull, I guess I will vote you for now.

vote:silverkeith

Not confident or anything but I at least want follow up on my points. Some more firm discussion would be nice too if possible. If not I guess we will kill whichever villager we care about least in about 12 hours and call it a day.

So first paragraph is me coming back and going 'no, I can't let that slide and this is one of my comments but certainly not the only one about me being a little itchy about the thread state. I've gotten a good sense for those things lately, and as it turned out I was correct so I wanted to shake things up. I feel like most of that first post is well within partner range for me and sk, but this next part would be doing the most for a thread who isn't listening and me who has gone through quite a few posts. It's needlessly bussy when my questions before feel relatively unpartnered to me.

Bu anyway as I explain I just couldn't get over him not voting me there. Because he found us both wolfy, but he never thought to say 'well obviously they can't BOTH be wolves with that opening' like I believe you did when I brought this to your attention. It bothered me a lot that SK didn't have that click moment between the two reads he was wolfing. Like the reads weren't actual thoughts, just convenient words to play the part. I used the word unintuitive, and it's a good word. You, who were taking into the game, had issues with me but it was almost an off hand remark that me and taffy weren't paired. It's a difference check in mentality looking back. Then I took note of the ladd/me interactions which were WAY more mild than me/taffy but he note ladd's towniness because... I honestly think I fucking nailed this one, it was a way to town read ladd without being too weird. But he didn't take into account that TRing ladd off me but not Taffy off me fundamentally is a reach. If you do both that's okay, but pulling ladd (the strong town player) vs taffy (the suspected player at the time) into different pockets felt manipulative and almost had to be agenda'd I thought. But also I try to keep in mind that people communicate and think differently, so I was suspicious but this wasn't a SLAM DUNK or anything, especially since SK could have later produced Taffy stuff and be like "a-ha!" and I'd be like 'ok cool, thanks for explaining."

So then I voted, and I didn't have a lot of posts because I am an idiot and need to work on pot cap pacing (legit skill issue) so I left it there for the post.

[katze]

'does wolf achro really control + f the word 'visor' on his phone for a afternoon to make a case for someone who is publicly red checked but he knows isn't a wolf to then link this non red checked person to two people exclusively over dozens of posts and digging into micro tells of partnerships he knows is completely fabricated instead of doing literally anything else with his time.'

(the answer is no. I fell for the FPS of Ender because I was town and happily did this work. That is 22000 words of text. Some quoted, but oh my god I spent time on that)

thats definitely the easy answer yeah

i think a thing with good wolves is that they see stuff like that as a prime opportunity to flex and show a LACK OF TMI so to say

that might be partial projection (i know if i were mafia id see that and be like "damn i could totally write a whole ass wallpost" but idt id have DONE it this game) but ive seen it come from a few other ppl i consider elite wolves and its part of why i was kinda suspicious of you/winston being paired. i actually still think winston is your most likely teammate which

well, i think he's probably town

but i'm still thinking on it. im still reading that big wall (ill get to what you're writing now in a bit, not gonna go wall to wall to wall i might die if i do that) and seeing how i feel about it, yknow? in realtime a few things confused me such as you quoting me talking about visor/cuth/benneh and then calling dya mafia off of it, you said it was probably your way of townreading me, but i still don't really GET that

ill probably get to writing out nitpicks in a bit but i smell chicken so i will probably take a break to eat it

[Cuthillius]

[Achro]

Anyway I think I like Visor's vote on me now when earlier I didn't. I 5hink he would be wary of just having a vote chill on a villager for most of the day and not care that I didn't like it as a wolf since he knows I can be prickly at times. Nothing too indicative or anything since he is just floating with it but maybe more town than scum.

Katze's suspicion of me is fine I guess if we aren't assuming they are an anime villain which I am unsure how prudent it is but also I will give benefit of the doubt and imagine they are being genuine.

So really only sk sticks out to me as not feeling too genuine atm.

I also dont like how much cape is being discussed unless he is a wolf and then I knew it all along. I don't get how he is the most wolfy out of everyone and if someone could explain it I would appreciate it. It almost feels like 'yeah we don't like that guy' which is fine and all if he is a wolf but I would like to know why exactly and I don't. So @insomnia that's for you and others.

So then I take a moment to re-evaluate some things. I decide you know what, Visor is fine for now with his vote on me it feels good enough, because in our previous w/v meeting he WAS concerned about his appearance to me as a wolf so I was referencing a past game thinking about it. A good read I got away from due to brain breaking, oops.

Then I took my hand off the trigger with you and decided I shouldn't treat you unfairly just because you are skilled, and you felt more genuine than SK did due to the reasons in my above post.

I then try to pull discussion away from cape.

A post mostly NOT about SK but it also gets into my head and I like this post because this has 4 correct opinions and we take those when you're a fish.

Moving on I question winston, think we have a mindmeld on katze even though I am not pushing katze anymore and call that town (p sure that's a W)

I can get behind Katze sus.

I now very much like Winston/Achro/Taffy as town tbh.

Ender thought I was pocketing him but actually he was just mirroring my world view and I could UNDERSTAND the katze sus unlike taffy sus (and taffy imo was lhf like cape so ender defending that slot made me think he was being not predatory and thus town) so I tr'd him instantly for this since I jut tr'd winston myself.

I prefer to think of it as inquiring and looking for actual answers to that question but anyway ender and I are masons now. Sorry not sorry.

(Town read for the person not named ender who can guess why I am tring ender correctly.)

I stand by this... I wasn't trying to be self-righteous :(

Personally if I were in Katze's position as a town slot I woukd be a bit curious why SK and I both as wolves but voted Taffy and along with that didn't make any comment about our pairing being unlikely.

The fact katze thinks of that in relationship to Taffy intuitively but Keith in a big wall doesn't think about it at all along with the fact that walls are pretty easy makes me start to think more than they were just faking their thoughts. Would love to hear Keith's thoughts on the matter though.

So this was me trying to prompt you on SK and maybe doing a bad job. I was trying my best to highlight and appeal to you that SK's suspicion of me and taffy really flew in the face of your own solving at the time which I felt was good if I stopped being paranoid of you. This was meant to be a difference check, and also really wanting to get SK in thread to discuss it.

You misunderstood it, I tried to clarify

My point is sk thought Taffy and I were wolf both but made no comment on how that pairing is weird while you did.

Also how do I see how many posts I have in a topic. I counted earlier lol

Ah yes the replies. I looked at that thread before but manually forgot about it since I only played once. Okay cool. Tbh not bad that I will only be capped for like an afternoon. But also not surprising that I will be capped lol.

Anyway 12 players let's see.

Town people in order of confidence roughly
Ender - like their world view a lot, feels chill and I can buy that they think self righteousness is a town tell for me generally (it is not it is mood dependent but this observation makes sense from the games he has played with me).

Taffy - I am. Fucking literal GOD at reading into votes on me being suspicious vs not and this slot is NEVER A WOLF. Phrased this way for maximum funny if wrong but until proven otherwise I trust my read on that because fr I am good at understanding thread position of myself.
Winston - good vibes. Like the katze sus because it felt solvey to me
Cuth - had a post I really liked earlier but I forget what now. But I will trust early Chris.
Ladd - chill vibes, like most of their thoughts we shall see if he leads us off a cliff.
Cape - god help me I think he is town at this point but not confident. Lots of talk about him being scummy tho so maybe a little thread spewed. Not sure not usually my type of read.
Insomnia - not much experience with this one but seems alright to start.


Not so towny 5

Katze - not feeling the MOJO but also willing to see what they come up with. Probably not bussing given reputation so if they bag a wolf today probably ok
Visor - I remember nothing
Neb - I remember nothing but felt compelled to put them here
Dya - starting to get bad vibes but nothing definite
Sk - see many posts above, but basically I don't think that wall post was wrll thought out and genuinely solving the game from an uninformed perspective. Felt like he was placing chess pieces instead of trying to form reads. Want to hear from him tho because it could be a simple misunderstanding on my end.

That's my legacy for now if I get capped.

My paragraph here on SK I think stands without further commentary, I did a great job both with my problems and explaining confidence level. A+ communication.

Also Christopher.

ONE TOWN READ

IS ALWAYS A WOLF

WHY

anyway we move on.

im soulreading that achro, if town, thinks that i am a wolf but is trying to pretend hes unsure so i bus at EoD and then he buries me tomorrow

im posting this to fuck with your head

glgl

It didn't fuck with my head but it made me smile.

taffy
cape
ender
dya
sk

i don't realy think i'd wanna actually vote dya or sk but they're the bottom of my reads. sk more nullish and dya slightly wolfy

cape
benneh
cuth
sk

not in any order

i feel like when cuth commented it wasn't very memorable and didn't really move the thread at all. That's why cuth

This is a town post and dya is a town who is having trouble getting into the game.

Let's actually go back 3 years in time to the last time I pulled scum sk out of my hat day one in champs and commit some metallurgical murder.

So I thought this was a town post because it had sk at the bottom when sk wasn't getting any attention and I town read dya because of her ALSO sussing SK when people weren't really talking much about him other than me AND having that feeling that the thread wasn't quite right. So this was an appeal to the thread as a whole but benneh and dya hey, let's stab SK in the face right now.

Unfortunately, no one in thread ever responded to this lol.

On the one hand I did say if I thought cape was town I should reverse that and scum read him and after cap lifts maybe I will do that. On the other hand you nerds did kill illario day one in the game I was in so I am not sure how much you lot can be trusted.

(For legal purposes this is a joke)

Anyway if cape is a wolf he was bussed already, so whatever I got the information I need to do work overnight if that happens. Probsbly good for thread to see people's positions on him too as everyone had SOMETHING to say.

But also I think sk is howling atm so I will stick there.

Anyway that's my post cap thanks for joining me on this wacky debut episode of achro tries to understand how to deduce things without posting 300 times.

Context: I keep being wrong about cape and everyone thinking he is scummy but not me gave me vibes to a recent game. I defended him for half a day until finally sheeping so I was nervous, because this format and new players do make me nervous. I hate being hedgy as a rule but I didn't have big confidence.

ok sick achro is gone time to talk shit and cfd

vote: achro

whenever cap lifts i don't rly understand why u think sk is HOWLING i know you made the connection on how me and him viewed taffy/you dynamics differently but

shrug

on the bright side i dont think i can wolfread achro for lack of confidence anymore

Me trying to get people onto sk, having no one respond, and then katze votes me in hindsight:

Oh, actually ladd did say my sk murder post was pure but... didn't comment on my sk read much at all, no one really interacted with my analysis... at all. It just kind of passed the thread. No one asked me any questions. You responded to me prompting you but then didn't respond to that. I had limited posts so I couldn't jump up and down begging people to notice.


Visor(1): Cape
Cape(2): ladd, insomnia
Katze (3): cuth, Winston, ender
Achro(3): Visor, Taffy, katze
Taffy(2): benneh, SK
Sk(1): achro

1pm vote totals, a bit after I voted SK and prompted people with no replies.

I think I may have been capped or 1-2 off cap at that point, so next post will be discussing SK juking me.

[Cuthillius]

i will not be writing a novel today

[katze]

i will not be writing a novel today

if u were town you'd write a novel

[Cuthillius]

if u were town you'd write a novel

i am and i won't

[katze]

i am and i won't

wtf

as we all know wallposts = locktown soooooooo

i gotta vote u now :/




(this is a joke)

[Cuthillius]

[katze]

i wasnt convinced but the attached thumbnail sold me

[Achro]

... It's kind of cute that you and winston both think my most likely wolf buddy is the other one, and I think it is benneh. That's a bit of an issue for town in my world view lol.

But we move on.

Okay we pick back up at 4:14pm, these are the votals

Winston(1): cuth
Visor(1): Cape
Cape(4): ladd, insomnia, Dyachei, katze
Katze (2): Winston, ender
Achro(2): Visor, Taffy
Taffy(1): SK
Sk(1): achro
Ender(1): benneh

So last thing I did was ask people to kill SK, I capped, and soon I will be coming back to a thread that is voting Cape someone I am not CONFIDENT is town but believe so, and think thread has been 'bad' today.

4:51 it's sk time.

Cape(5): ladd, insomnia, Dyachei, katze, Visor
Katze (2): Winston, ender
Achro(1): Taffy
Winston(1): cuth
Visor(1): Cape
Taffy(1): SK
Sk(1): achro
Ender(1): benneh

Not voting (0):

Dya votes SK, cool

5:00 pm I drop THIS:

So some things.

No idea how to read into cape being wrong on 3 different posts about scum tells when I am town. I wonder if this is genuine or appearing to be solving an active slot to buy himself time? What are my scum tells in those posts @Cape90 although if you are town at least you know to throw them away next time. Cape are we having a pokemash moment or a smas all stars moment? Hard to tell with you tbh

Anyway much has been made about my insecurity as it were. Jokes on you I took a binding vow at the beginning of 2023 that every time in a game I mention I am flawed, I have imperfect skills, and I have weaknesses my skills actually sharpen and I bend reality to make it so my team always wins.

I am 24-1 this year. The 1 is Anni where town lost because they didn't shoot my top suspect after I died n1 and he power wolfed. I am 15-1 as town. 9-0 as wolf. I am skilled, calm, and ferociously violent as either alignment if need be but mostly chill and here for a good time not a long time. I believe my town game is crisper than ever and my ability to both lead and follow has improved. My read are crystal-like in their clarity and I re evaluate very well these days. As scum my games and the fear I leave behind will speak for themselves.

Ok, so clearly I literally know I am awesome. So what's the deal with what I said earlier? All of that I just rambled about is true but also I recognize that I DO struggle more without meta at times and I do often use posting to help me in scum hunting through real time interactions and sneaky lines of inquiry and play. 50 feels rough compared to I believe the 80 or 100 of the previous game.

Also, I think it should be pretty obvious that fake solving as a wolf and actually figuring out people are very different experiences with limited posts. And if they aren't then they are to me. I guess you can murder me if you want if you think for some weird reason wolf achro faked this sentiment and then proceeded to do his best to solve before post capping. Don't really get it tbh. That post cap didn't obstruct me from wolfing because I just needed to fake solve. I worry for this post cap because I need to actually solve. I feel we may be speaking different languages. Also I posted almost double post cap because you said the game ended in 5 days but I 0 posted day 5 because town messed up and voted before I could post. Just FYI. I THINK this is town from you but also you running this like a treadmill is a little confusing. My solving has clearly at this point been eventful. Sorry for showing a little humility I guess I can turn up the ego if you like lmao. I know that's not what you are saying yeah yeah, it is just the ultimate mountain out of a mole hill and would never be wolf indicative for me. My posting after doesnt really fit into this narrative as I did my best Anyway yknow?

Anyway as for my list idea I thunk I saw it in some game recently and I was like 'oh yeah that sounds fun' I of course know that good mafia players abhor fun (they play mafia after all) so I didn't expect it to be completed but I thought it would be fun if it did. The main purpose is fuck RVS and look, barely any RVS. Beautiful. Secondly I was just vibing with everyone's reactions and going from there. How people talk about things early isn't always apparent day 1 in terms of alignment but I bet if I go back after a scum flips something in that discussion will help me solve, or help others if I am dead. Laying weird situations as groundwork for people to come back to is fun and it has helped me a lot in games.


Anyway I think today has proven my fears to be true in that I feel the game has been really stagnant. Feels like it was mostly me and katze churning the butter while everyone else sat around talking about cape or me or katze all day. For all this talk about solving day one dya hasn't fulfilled much in the way of sharp conclusions. But dya, benneh, and myself all have sk in our bottom 5 and so does katze. So lets kill him for the crime of wall posting and move on.


Oh

Right.

I thought wolf katze wouldn't have their scum partner as 1 town and me as wolf there because of she pushed me over they would look paired if one of them died. Most wolves get really nitpicky about things like that. It wasn't a major read but I liked the thought so I ran with it.

.

God it feels like everyone is interested in cape but me as I read the thread in real time. If that boy is a wolf he was in wolf chat 'yo I am kind of busy just bus me it's cool' or something because the stocks are DOWN and been down since before he did anything to my eye that's alignment anything.

All the while sk posts 5 times and everyone is like 'yeah I am sure it's fine he isn't frozen and crying in wolf chat he posted a wall why would I even vote this'

Idk just feels weird that lots of people have sk in bottom 5 but no one is willing to prod him. I know he can be town but I wanted to hear his thoughts and I never got to which sucks. I guess there's more than one scum. Just posting for visibility I guess? If cape is town this was a very scum sided day be ause despite me capping and thinking cape was OK if he dies as town that means I had no thread control (not surprising) which probably means someone who is good at controlling narratives is wolfing.

Which atp may be good for information as cape isn't exactly super villagery just expressing concerns because today to me will feel super bad if cape is town. If cape is wolf though someone on that wagon is 100% a wolf too seeing as how everyone is like 'yeah cape sure is wolfy'

Which means when cape came back this afternoon he is in antispew wifom territory.

More or less just typing out thoughts after 4pm as my post cap lifts because I am jamming to music.

In the end I guess this is a chill game and maybe this is the chill way to kill a wolf day one.
@SilverKeith I believe I pinged you earlier. Please respond I am clingy.

I am ready to fucking NUKE SK at this point. I hate the thread state. I think it's ALL wrong but I don't want to be bossy or rude but my instincts are SCREAMING. I appeal to benneh, you katze, and dya and dya had already listened and you ended up listening too before I got juked. This is a letter of intent that SK is about to DIE if he doesn't do something.


So, he did something.

The first thing SK does when he posts, THE FIRST thing of note, is he responds to me. Because HE knows that accurate day 1 achro is, as the kids say, "a fucking problem" for wolves. So he wants to make this go away.

I don't think trying new things is unlike you. I think there's a big difference between you trying to make someone claim their item in draft mafia, which is something really proactive/bossy of you, you wanted to command thread. This was more like a silly experiment with no real mech reason behind it, it was also a lot more, uh, dependant on circumstances I'd say, a "Hmmm I wonder what will happens or what conclussions can be drawn from it" rather than "This is an strategy that I can agree with or at least understand". I don't think it's really AI (maybe it is but for that I'd need to know more about how you open a game as both alignments)

None, I think. Maybe I've read a game where you were wolfing but can't remember rn. I just felt it was wolfy. Or that must've been the case since I don't currently know which post we're talking about.


Don't think I can reference a wolf game where I reference other games tho I think I reference other games relatively often but it's not something I actively do.

I think something you said later that bothered you was related to me having both you and Taffy as wolves which didn't make any sense and my answer is that you're misunderstanding how I think about games. I can think about things that different players do are individually wolfy witouth having to check into the macro universe where I concilliate both of those things making sense. I see things I say things about them.

Also I don't currently think you're a wolf, kinda? Your push here towards me reminds me of your push in draft mafia. I think that if you were a wolf I'd be more bothered by your reasonings.

Okay. Great wolf post imo to attack 2023 town Achro. Just a clinic on how to disarm me. First, he gives kind of a reasonable explanation that I could see any town making about the difference in the two things. But it's apples to oranges and I know that, draft mafia was VERY mech heavy and so of course my opener wouldn't be mech heavy, but it's like 'ok MAYBE'

Next, he simply gives the answer 'we understand games differently' and that hits me because yeah, there's a lot of different ways to solve and I know sometimes I chop people over a misunderstanding rather than something wolfy. I am not INTIMATELY familiar with SK's game so him thinking of things different is possible and reasonable.

Then he hit me with the sucker punch. It will usually work if it's been awhile. We were both town in draft mafia and I suspected him a lot early. I hate when I tunnel badly and try my best to learn from it, so the above answers were reasonable enough and then he reminds me 'yeah this is like draft mafia, I think you're probably fine as it reminds me of that and your reasoning doesn't bother me' and it's like... oof. Right. Calling back to a specific time is something I like to see people do, it feels like they are recalling a memory. once day 1 after I did it. So I am now trying to make sure I am re-evaluating properly. This post knocked me down to 'okay I am not buying you completely here, but I am not in the mood to tunnel you after swinging and missing in draft mafia and town do remind me of this a lot'

so I got one last good look in before I got juked, from my apparent wolf partner (maybe more idk lol)

pretty much any other choice and i'd have followed you here

just for the joy

said to dya about voting sk

I respond with:

Why is the low posters the golden goose?

That snapped my attention RQ. I was voting SK. I believed in it. And Winston was going to vote anywhere BUT there? What!?

The response

too easy

So I attack SK on his first point, really the only one I can

Oh hello Keith. If you are town question. Why would my thing be as mech heavy as a draft mafia in a 13er lol


Come on that don't make any sense.

So why are we voting cape again?

Clever. I am attacking him and he takes a moment to defend someone I am defending. Very fucking clever. He knows how my town mind operates. I don't care if you town read me, but if you defend my town reads... it will soften me. It's so good. I don't know if he did it on purpose but this did soften me more. So now I think, 'okay I still don't get the opening post BUT now more importantly SK is pushing in the direction I want of not cape. Cool!'

back at my computer for the finale

I have changed my mind, SK is town

unvote: Silverkeith

time to murder a wolf in 51 minutes.

Oops.

Yes, very true. You can be town for understanding this and mistaking it for wolfy intent.

I like chaos as town.

I read his explanation and at this point I am focused on saving cape and go 'sure, it happens' because he did understand my intent before pretty well.

So from here I am obv town reading SK for the rest of the day off of this and I start by voting ladd for stated reasons.

I have killed a thousand towns and a thousand wolves. I fear no cringe. I am the embodiment of mafia justice itself.

I am a nerd.

But sincerely it feels like ladd is sipping drinking coffee and his observations feel okay but also his logic that one of me/katze must be a wolf because we wolf read each other is very predatory if katze is town. Like, 'ah I think they both look good, but idk...'

Also I feel like ladd's posting has kind of encouraged a lethargic feel to the thread. Like it's just easing the momentum towards 'yah bye cape' which we can flip today and if it is town makes ladd's efforts today look shady, chill game or no

also ladd what posts of mine are obvious villager posts. I will know if you are lying.

I think this post against ladd shows where my mind is at and how I got tripped up by sk. I am not preoccupied about 'got to murder a wolf' atp, I am thinking 'ok I think this game state is bad, ladd led the game state into being bad, even though I hedged I just think cape is town and I don't want cape to die.'

Have skimmed some of the last pages.

I like cape doing their own thing. Feels ok.

I think dya is ok. I feel like town dya would default to voting me often in this playerlist and in a game where I'm not really posting a lot, because they are really unfamiliar with me and thus I don't see them condifently putting me outside a POE ever. I'm not sure wolf dya takes this exit. Not related but Dya is prolly the player in this game I feel the most confident in reading correctly but that's a really low level of confidence which is fun and exciting.

I glance at this. I'm okay with dya too, no reason to second guess this - sk is on my side here so far.

yo achro why is SK town

this isnt a loaded q just not sure what u saw

because I get when he was explaining why he suspected me he drew a very specific read to a very specific game and I immediately can understand how v!SK could take that to be wolf achro posturing.

oops, but explained more above.

Achro did you really wanted to tdome Katze at one point?

I mentally checked out by there I think but that's the last thing I member which didn't really made sense.

SK trying to recruit me to kill Katze.

Cape(2): ladd, insomnia
Sk(2): Dya, katze
Katze (2): ender, SK
ladd(2): Cape, achro
Achro(1): Taffy
Winston(1): cuth
Ender(1): benneh
Cuth(1): Visor
Visor(1): Winston

Nah not really I wouldn't have minded some votes there to see what she did but I was just seeing how it panned out.

Reading katze off day 1 is hard so I like to prod people of her skill level to see what happens. Often can be telling in future days.

Me being like 'nah, I didnt really want a tdome' and moving on lol

I thought it was only SK you didn't want to touch. Now ladd? Why is that?

to winston not touching ladd. imo obv not partnered lol

No interest in Ender who is a capable mid to late game solver whose world view mostly lines up with mine, at least for day 1.
Pass.

Based read tbh

My kill order from that list is ladd > cape > katze fyi

Look I was in my feels and was growing comfortable with a cape info chop. I'm sorry.

vote: silverkeith

Note: I think cuth's only mentions of SK for day 1 are asking a question to ender about the wall, putting him in the middle of a reads list, and this vote up to this point. I could be wrong about that but if someone wants to check I don't think I am VERY wrong about that.

I've backread a bit and I don't want to lunch taffy, mostly because I think their post building structure makes them a player that's possible to read for me.

More agreement with me, of course I'm going to like this.

Ender was vibing with me heavily on several town reads which unless I am heavily skill issue'd usually indicates town in my experience.

He could be playing around me though, I suppose. I don't think he'd bother.

Me defending my town reads.

vote: benneh

stop trying to kill my town reads tbh

I think this is looking like a pretty cool vote personally.

Benneh(3): Winston, cuth, Achro
Sk(2): Dya, katze
Katze (2): ender, SK
Cape(2): ladd, insomnia
Achro(1): Taffy
Ender(1): benneh
Cuth(1): Visor
Visor(1): Cape

After this, I will note, cuth then goes to me to ender. I should have burned them all metaphorically.

I liked that last big taffy post.

Likes my tr yes yes I like this.

I am going to make dinner, have fun at end of day and if you kill me it was fun playing with everyone again.

Wolf achro starves rather than missing a chance to fuck with a town.

(for legal purposes this is a joke)

Then I see the insomnia post and agree with SK, it made my nose wiggle so I sheeped and went to make dinner.

And that's EOD.

[Cuthillius]

Wolf achro starves rather than missing a chance to fuck with a town.

honestly props for having the guts to admit it

[Achro]

Cape(4): ladd, insomnia, ender
Ender(3): benneh, katze, Cuth
insomnia(2): SK, Achro


Hmm.

Hmmmm.

lame day tbh

glgl

And I pop back in letting my thoughts be known lol

okay that's really eod

[katze]

So I attack SK on his first point, really the only one I can

this is super nitpicky and you're free to ignore it but this wording sounds like a weird perspective even though it kind of makes sense in context anyways

but im posting it anyway




uhhh i just realized i kinda got distracted and forgot to nitpick at that one wall earlier oops lol

[katze]

ill read over all the SK stuff in a bit too, trying to not information overload myself and i. still do want the other players outside the cross to do stuff today

[katze]

also my main reason for thinking you/winston makes more sense than you/benneh is solely the cross with cuth

maybe you believe that regardless of your teammate you win the game off this cross either in f5 or f3 but shrug

[Achro]

Could not even allow me the honor of being paranoid of that man after he let cape die. The wolves are monstrous.

Also hopefully ender tricked me.

I will look back later to see if I notice anything about day 1 that proves useful.

I'm fucking dumb and have gotten so used to talking about Semis format + my only game on here having a town poisoner my first thought was 'aww man, a town poisoner' since people were sussing ender.

I am going to skip over ... a lot of things that irked the fuck out of me lol

My town reads are not all allowed to be right day 1 so I need to figure out which one is the imposter and figure out two below. Although I think dya had a post I really liked and insomnia had one I hated so hnmyes.

1/2 isn't bad as far as re-evals go.

I have multiple other commitments that consumed my time. I think it isn't that hard to find these commitments if one tries if you know me but that is all I will say.

I was in 4 other mafia games lol I am sick please help.

(I am healthy and pushing my mental limits, ironically, but different type of sickness)

You were trying to kill my top town read. It isn't that complicated.

I confused insomnia with benneh lol. I am so good at mafia tbh

bruh are you guys alright?

i’ve villa read ender xD i never wolf read him.

Achro was not, in fact, alright.

then I voted katze and laid down lol

Yeah I didn't like the obvious claim but also if I am mixing things up then yeah. Down with cuth and katze

Ok gn

Needed more follow through tbh

vote: silverkeith

seems like i can sleepwalk another lunch

because it worked so well the first time?

like did no one else think it was weird that someone who wasnt post capped only showed up at EOD

@katze note dya's problem with this was my problem with it in real time. Like, yesterday (er day 1) I noted how shitty the thread felt so when you said that I was like "....really? a shrugyeet?"

i mean im not particularly unhappy with that eod so.. yes?

why are you snarking me when you agree with my vote

(...)

I hated the eod because I just felt a sense of doom the whole day. Your comment could have been about most people and I'd have gotten annoyed at it, from mafia philosophy.

Ah that was a bit of a joke you see. Intended as jest. A light hearted comment. The real read is in a thread full of several people who felt like either something was wrong or were trying to move things you had time to joke vote ladd. It felt like you were standing there knowing perfectly well the day was killing a town rather than a town trying to do something.

I tried to signal a few times to thread I felt like the game state was really bad but not only did you not notice you kind of were joking. Which is fine I guess it's just a game but if you are town actually trying to solve and win I am not seeing it in your process or your results atm.

You can only do so many 'sleep walk through the day' posts before I as a town player currently losing start thinking you are literally open wolfing because you probably do similar things as town.

So why I wanted questions is multiple times this game you have completely misread my intent so I am like 'hold up dont leave it to you' because in my head I am like 'oh god'

There are rarely one shrugyeet in achro games.

There are never 2.

I want a chill game too but if people want to shrugyeet again they can do it in a game I am not in.

Anyway will discuss more tomorrow. Eyes barely open.

Remains true even though I fought for the wrong team on this one. Shrugyeets were common on gamefaqs and it led to so many losses after I was n1'd they make me ITCH.

(also you sussed me early day 2 and asked rhetorically 'how does he believe the words he is saying' and my point to you now is 'ask about specific words and I will say, and if you dont like it fair enough but give me a chance to explain my very weird brain)

Oh, I missed some things in this wall

why is this towny??????????

like. what?

what the fuck are you doing with SK this game brother

like im not even convinced its wolfy but its so easy to imagine a wolf writing that post given the implied experience i am legitimately flabbergasted that THIS is apparently what got you to drop the "everybody wolfreads SK, i dont wolfread cape, lets kill SK" shit

what??

well, explained.

...........................................

you know this kinda reminds me of me trying to ML newcomb in sorc17 last year

inchresting

not my style tbh

i am like 98% confident you never at any point called m a villager up to this point and to this point you had called ladd a villager multiple times where is this coming from

god dammit i know you're going to say its eod chaos but

sighs

I had you outside of my bottom 3 even though you were in my POE for day 1 wariness and I was growing suspicious of ladd so he was too below you, so someone I suspected going 'okay this villager (me) and this other ??? may have a wolf" it makes me squint.

and seriously what the FUCK is this

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN ACHRO

EVEN IN REALTIME I KNEW SK WAS MAFIA AND UR JUST POSTING SHIT LIKE THIS

Okay so the post is this:

ladd: I am not getting up out of bed for this

cape and katze: bring it on

difference check choo choo
and seriously what the FUCK is this

(I just missed this because I was unwell btw lmao oops)

So

I thought you and cape were trying to get thread moving: good good yes yes
Ladd was just sitting back: wolf ok with game state

I was a level off here, they were fine with cape but really a stronger villager later (like insomnia or ender) was what they were aiming for. Alas.

also I had like 5-6 fake claim posts day 1 and saying ladd would be shot tonight was supposed to be a fake vig claim, and also not my style as wolf at all.

you said 'awoo' to me understanding taffy was town. gdi lol

MY MAN u are LTIERALLY roasting me for a joke vote that lasted A SINGLE MINUTE and YOU ALSO JOINED IT

you are spouting actual garbage this eod

Your world view at the time is 'Achro sheeps wolf buddy on v/v wagons and then goes to make dinner'

I mean, it'd be an interesting choice ngl.

[Achro]

this is super nitpicky and you're free to ignore it but this wording sounds like a weird perspective even though it kind of makes sense in context anyways

but im posting it anyway




uhhh i just realized i kinda got distracted and forgot to nitpick at that one wall earlier oops lol

Well one is a difference in solving philosophy so I can just say 'nuh-uh' and the other SK had on the facts that I was wrong about him so like ... yeah I was, sure.

also I think I said earlier: it's not an achro game if I don't sound weird. I think I sound less weird as a wolf tbh because I am creative writing more.

[Achro]

also my main reason for thinking you/winston makes more sense than you/benneh is solely the cross with cuth

maybe you believe that regardless of your teammate you win the game off this cross either in f5 or f3 but shrug

This makes sense.

But also I feel like I am just unpaired with both and also with SK given angle of attack and angle of retreat. It's such a stupid angle to take if I know SK is a wolf, but also to side eye winston over SK too? It's really doing the most day 1 when I don't particularly bus much day 1 when I can help it, and town was sleep walking through that eod if me/sk were both wolves tbh

[Achro]

Visor asks Benneh 'who after SK if wolf'

hopefully dvc

idk honestly, prob in the you/ahcro/katze triangle

Cool.

Anyway I got angry like an idiot zzz

Anyway, that being said good morning friends and foes alike.

I don’t really mind dying today if you all can’t gel with my world view, it’ll probably make each side happier and it is just a fun, chill game after all.

Anyway I found the Ladd kill a little odd at first, not that I would tunnel him or anything - that was mostly to reflect back on after the fact and see how people moved around others - but he was undoubtedly the leader yesterday who sent us into the rocks of a Cape kill.

So, why kill Ladd? I think it is either something else he posted, or what he would have thought after reflecting on the fact Cape was town over night. So I’m going to put my Ladd cap on and try to go over the thread a bit before I have to leave, not sure how much I will get done.

Yesterday Taffy didn’t like my insecurity, but that was just me reminding myself that I don’t know a lot of you and to make sure my processes are sound.

Cape(4): ladd, insomnia, ender, katze
insomnia(3): SK, Achro, Cuth
Ender(2): benneh, Winston
Cuth(2): Visor, Taffy
ladd(1): Cape
Sk(1): Dya

Ladd is gone, Cape is gone, and Ender is poisoned. My first thought is this could make insomnia/katze town and the people I am looking for are those that allowed the game state to drift to Cape all day yesterday rather than those that voted him out. A hands off approach, if you will. But I don’t think it’d ever be both Insomnia and Katze with those choice of NK/Poison, although wolves have surprised me before. I say that with… I guess 85% confidence, so some room for error but I think I am right on it.

So in total I need to find 3 scum in 9 names

Katze
Insomnia
SK
Cuth
Benneh
Winston
Visor
Taffy
Dya

And my starting premise is Katze/Insomnia are unlikely to be w/w. Alright then.

My first town core slot is going to Taffy. 95% confidence on this one. For starters, I know personally my ability to perceive intent on who votes me has a stellar track record, I’d give that 90% by itself, but the thread state of poking Taffy a lot over what I thought was an interesting and towny way of voting me brings it up another 5%. I know they are a skilled player, so I leave myself open to being fooled as we haven’t played together before and that’s where my social reads are weakest, but as of this moment I think I’d just lose to Taffy for that play + the thread state around them.

Which that alone now makes my job reading day 1 kind of a lot easier. I now have 5 villagers in my head that I can see how the other 8 suspects interacted with to see who pushed pro-town agenda, who pushed anti-town agenda, who coasted along, and who is unclear even with this.

Cool, that’s a lot of data. But let’s try to add at least 1-2 more likely town to this list to make it even better.

I liked Cuth in general yesterday but soured in real time in EOD, however if Ender is willing to let that go so am I, who am I to OMGUS for another man? So I’ll put Cuth in my town pile.






I said this was a town post yesterday. Now I am not so sure in the cold light of day because it might fit into wolf agenda. Keeping Cape as the focus by having them in their list of five, but setting up possible kills on SK/Dya later on. I think this isn’t a post a wolf would typical make if they were paired with either dya or SK, but I say that with about 70% confidence so a lot of room to be wrong, but I’d still be inclined to believe it. Now that I am thinking about it after a night’s sleep I don’t really understand the reasoning behind not pushing someone you think has been slightly wolfy in favor of letting the thread drift to Cape as town. You said SK and dya were at the bottom of your reads and SK was nullish which meant that cape and ender were nullish at worst too, what led you to being OK with voting one of them out but not dya or SK @nebjiamn

(This isn’t loaded I don’t understand)

Dya I warmed back on due to these posts:



Wolves typically complete assignments as asked, Katze asked for 5 names but said less was ok, and Dya took the opportunity to give less. Not hugely confident, but a note.




I felt yesterday this was like me - concerned about moving the thread. There was a lot of dead air around Cape and I am presuming Taffy yesterday, so when Dya had cuth listed because the thread wasn’t being moved I really liked that comment a lot. It felt like a non-obvious mindmeld of concern for the state of things. I didn’t feel pandered to or manipulated, although I don’t know dya’s complete wolf range it is enough for me to slot them into my town pile for now.

Ender (Poisond)
Taffy
Cuth
Dya


Current town pile, leaving me with:

Katze
Insomnia
SK
Benneh
Winston
Visor

3 wolves, 3 villagers. I do not believe Katze/Insomnia are paired.


I paused for a second to wonder what Visor is even talking about, and now my head is back to hurting.

SK probably has wolf equity. I was running strats at EOD and was handwaving people as towny/wolfy to try to see where the chaos led, my town read on SK was pretty weak tbh.

I will leave it here for now as I am overdoing it I think still, but my direction is pretty clear atm. Go through the thread and see how the above six moved around the other 7 players and try to find the 3 most pockety/predatory among them while keeping an eye out for signs of being partnered.

Cool.

So I review things and I realize 'okay, the SK town read at eod was pretty weak' which yeah, it was. I make the intuitive thought that perhaps all of the wolves were off of Cape (I think this is correct now) so I start breaking it down.

I thought benneh/sk were unaligned in this post due to how it felt like he was treating sk/dya the same but yeah, not liking my reason for really thinking SK was town at the time so back into the suspect pile he went.

Then visor said more things...

Lmao

*moves Winston to town pile*

I'm stupid okay I really thought that was a town poisoner claim lol

@EnderWiggin

Yo. I would love to solve with you today on things since we seem to be of a similar mind. Lmk what you think of my posts and sorting process so far and if you want me input on any of your poe. You said you were re evaling me so if you got any questions lmk I know I can be a tough person to follow thoughts wise.

I wanted to solve with ender because I trusted him, good decision making to want to solve with a slot you trust.

unvote: katze

Executive decision in my brain to leave katze for last in my thinking. I have devoted too much time to my second favorite MU champs winner, I will come back to them at the close of the show c

Good decision making.

Well apparently now we know the poisoner and why they poisoned and it was (at least claim wise) town. I have seen a lot of town poisoner lately tbh.

Anyway if you can't find me by eod I am fine being voted out since I don't really want to be around at mylo to be voted on by someone I strongly town read lol. It's like the worst type of feeling.

Sorry that you are pinged by my thoughts, you aren't alone tbh I get that a lot and I try to make myself clear but sometimes the way I think about things is opaque and it is hard for me to make others see exactly what I see. If you have specific questions about any of my points/suspicions about them it would really help me if you pointed them out directly so I can understand. Thanks!

Like... I didn't want to be at lylo with this person who was tunneling me this is such a really weird out of the box way to get town cred lmao. I was being really sincere here. I felt like taffy was obv town but I just wasn't reaching them at all so I didn't want to be the game ending chop (oh boy)

vote: SK

I have decided katze is probably town whose marketing for this chop needs a lot of revisement.

But also I made a bad change of read eod and I will go back to sk being frozen and crying in wolf chat as in my current world view there are no viable teams that do not involve him.

Cool cool. Cool.

Good post. Great post. Katze just said it wrong, all times revolve around SK. We're good.

could be a wolf. I have a hard time reading him but I thought his eod was wolfier than villagery if that makes sense. Like his reads changed drastically and suddenly and not in a way that really made sense to me

(towntell)

I argue with visor some more, baffled how I did nothing for cape in his view.

Achro seething in Google docs rn

true

I just assumed they wouldn't claim the poison on ender as a wolf and called it a day myself. But maybe too shallow?

I am just stupid, katze. lol. I wasn't trying to push any weird narrative I just misread the intent all day.

i meant in general because I have no idea how to approach his posts for the most part and that extends beyond this game

I think this is dya agreeing with this take atp but lol

vote: silverkeith

for now in italics

me and visor agree, ok based

Brain too mush to give you questions rn. I'm trying to catch up and maybe will see something to ask you about.

Ender responds to me and I am like cool, we're going to solve together.

Vote: Achro

I changed my mind.

Also my townread on Taffy can be down to "I liked the way they got stuck on the wolfread on Achro and they make sense to me rn."

This... broke my brain. I had been struggling to get traction in the thread but was feeling a bit better day 2 and ender's sudden turn around from solving with me to voting with me just... ruined my mafia day real quick.

I... don't really want to discuss the rest of day 2 tbh because I went from this to thinking visor was red checked most of the day to after he wasnt red checked me just having a head full of confirmation bias. But reading this back... it kind of hurts that it was my top town read at the time that kind of demoralized me. He is just trying to solve the game, it isn't a blame thing, but... fuck. I was voting SK before this. This is where things started to go wrong.

[Achro]

@katze you and winston are my jury in my eyes atm. Is it okay if I move on to SOD3?

[Cuthillius]

yes

[Achro]

yes

I like you, enemies we may be.

Good egg, I was right about that.

[katze]

@katze you and winston are my jury in my eyes atm. Is it okay if I move on to SOD3?

was afk, yeah i won't force you to go over eod2 i can reread it for myself if i deem it necessary

(still not really here)

[Achro]

Fuck storm just knocked my power out when I was on an epic rant on why a post cleared me here.

[Achro]

I did not think about this game once meaningfully in the past 24 hours because my solve got so warped around thinking Visor was red checked.

I had taffy and cuth as town regardless of visor things though, so now cuth.

If you suspect me all I can ask is that you try to ask questions before voting for me, and I will do my best to answer them in in a meaningful way.

I was looking forward to voting sleep to get more time, but guess not.

o/

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

also i think you're a villager? probably my top v read tbh

Man it was great. I was mentioning how I was shad in pokemash and cuth is you and how I swerved him when he was pocketing me and stuff. It was dramatic.

Anyway katze the simple fact is wolf achro at lylo at least before f3 has no reason to ever turn on cuth there when I was being top tr'd by him and a known town also tr'd him. What was I trying to accomplish here? Solving.

I feel like this is intuitive and straight forward. It requires no hoops. If you had crossed me like you threatened and cuth is town I would have won, katze. I could have crossed you then and there. Winston may be my buddy in your world but cuth was top town reading me. Now maybe that scenario isn't 100% true. Maybe town cuth woukd have found it odd. But I certainly had no reason to then do a massive dump on my top town read.

Anyway moving on but the wolf mentality is just not there at all imo