13er summer game thread

[nebjiamn]

this post has gotten eaten 3 times and im trying again

achro can you talk to me about how your worldview changed after dya and visor flipped? they were a big part of your solve d2 and then 24 hours later 2/3 were dead and flipped v. curious on what your process was at that point more than the result but you can include the results too

specifically the part before EOD3 or votes though

[nebjiamn]

finally (this post will go thru with ease)

[Achro]

finally (this post will go thru with ease)

My post went through twice. Owned.

[Winston Hughes]

aye, the org is being really janky today

it's making reading back a pain

nevertheless, now i've actually been looking at what achro has been saying, and one comment that caught my attention said that my continued suspicion of katze (gg btw) shows i don't reassess my reads

which is entirely mistaken

as i said early in the game, it's a matter of probabilities

that i continued suspecting katze does not mean that i was convinced of his guilt, which is why i never made any real case for chopping there (which is not to say i wouldn't have chopped there - i would, i just wasn't confident enough to try and really push anyone else to do so)

the only exception was a brief period at the start of d4, before i reassessed cuth and benneh, whose apparent innocence effectively proved katze and achro guilty to me

indeed, the growing realisation (aided by a little light reading at MU) that cuth's tone is still radically better as scum than as town caused me to find katze townier, since he was no longer showing any effort to drive the game or manipulate people, which would have made no sense at all in the context of what cuth was doing

the way each of you was playing it, on the other hand...

well, there's the subtle approach or the crass approach

benneh, while i'm sure he's capable of throwing haymakers, during this game has consistently been gently nudging things around

achro, meanwhile, has engaged in some of the most overt attempts at manipulation i've ever seen in mafia

in light of cuth's flip, this can also be seen in the respective bussing strategies, with cuth/benneh hedging to try and stay in the sweet spot, whereas cuth/achro would be throwing it all down

(no idea where i was going with that, but seems i got somewhere close to giving actual content)

[Winston Hughes]

gah, this is intolerable

it's taking almost a minute to load a new page

[nebjiamn]

i don't think you could call what i was doing a hedge?

i mean, you can assign wolf poitns to it and i wouldn't blam you i guess but it wasn't a hedge at all. i was all in on a v!achro/w!cuth world yesterday

i was all in on wanting to be the hammer so i could be clear and earn the nightkill which i felt would make f3 much harder for the surviving wolf (whether that be you, achro, or katze) but as yesterday developed i felt a little more at ease with katze and also a little bit 'done' with the game and decided to trust them and hand them the hammer. i also thought this would make the game easier fmpov if kat was a v but it didnt really

idk, wifom and all, but i don't think wolf!me ever hands katze the hammer so they can clear themselves and put me in this specific f3 against you two. there was a lot of risk to it but it felt OK with how kat was posting yesterday and how i saw the worlds sharping out. w!me just doens't do pro-town stuff like that when i'm wolfing and whether or not you or achro is the wolf me ultimately clearing katze was very pro town

[nebjiamn]

yesterday

winston thinks its achro/katze
I think its cuth/x - x being between winston/katze
achro thinks its cuth/benneh?
katze thinks its x/benneh - x being between cuth/achro
cuth wolf doesnt matter what he thinks

if achro is a wolf, i think its likely he voted cuth with the intention that w!achro is the one who loses that thunderdome yesterday because
a) katze has suspicion on achro already
b) v!winston wants to vote between achro/katze already
c) although b is a 50/50 for achro to win, by solidifying a bus between him and cuth it looks VERY good for cuth at f3
d) even in a cross where cuth wins that f5, i don't think its suspicious if cuth is alive today whereas it would look very sus if achro was alive today at f3 after winning.

except: since kat was clear, they make sense dying and achro being alive does too. but achro could have no idea i was doing that.

the problem is this doesn't align with how cuth responded. achro kind of beat cuth up and while i think lots of those back and forths can look w/w it just makes more sense for cuth to try to be the winner here ultimately if this is the motivation achro had for voting first. the only thing i can guess is that if thats the team, cuth may have thought he'd be able to win over katze with his posting (and he apparently almost did, so c'est la vie if thats what happened ig uess)

[nebjiamn]

conversely

in the world winston is a wolf he came out pushing a v/v world to see what I would think of it and asked for permission to vote either achro/katze

there's some push back against that and winston then kinda dips outta thread but eventually returns to seemingly have his cat decide between bussing cuth or voting achro

since we're in a w!winston world in this scenario .. although id idnt pick up that katze was as close to voting achro yesterday as katzes last two posts show, its possible w!winston and cuth would have picked up on it and might have been ok with yoloing a vote onto achro there in hopes katze voted wrong. i dont think they could have expected me to vote achro there so they would need specifically katze

honestly this feels dumb deciphering whether or not winston's cat randing was real or not

its either real or not but one thing it does serve is allow w!winston to be less accountable for his vote regardless of how it swings. either its random so he can justify voting achro in that spot or it allows him to bus cuth despite how he opened the thread yesterday with his suspicions without having to really explain it

[Winston Hughes]

i don't think you could call what i was doing a hedge?

no, it wasn't exactly the right word, but i couldn't figure out what was

if you'd killed achro last night, how confident would you have been of convincing katze not to vote you today?

[nebjiamn]

no, it wasn't exactly the right word, but i couldn't figure out what was

if you'd killed achro last night, how confident would you have been of convincing katze not to vote you today?

no idea

probably moreso than I would be to convince achro but less so than i'd probably think i could convince you?

hard to say

[Achro]

aye, the org is being really janky today

it's making reading back a pain

nevertheless, now i've actually been looking at what achro has been saying, and one comment that caught my attention said that my continued suspicion of katze (gg btw) shows i don't reassess my reads

which is entirely mistaken

as i said early in the game, it's a matter of probabilities

that i continued suspecting katze does not mean that i was convinced of his guilt, which is why i never made any real case for chopping there (which is not to say i wouldn't have chopped there - i would, i just wasn't confident enough to try and really push anyone else to do so)

the only exception was a brief period at the start of d4, before i reassessed cuth and benneh, whose apparent innocence effectively proved katze and achro guilty to me

indeed, the growing realisation (aided by a little light reading at MU) that cuth's tone is still radically better as scum than as town caused me to find katze townier, since he was no longer showing any effort to drive the game or manipulate people, which would have made no sense at all in the context of what cuth was doing

the way each of you was playing it, on the other hand...

well, there's the subtle approach or the crass approach

benneh, while i'm sure he's capable of throwing haymakers, during this game has consistently been gently nudging things around

achro, meanwhile, has engaged in some of the most overt attempts at manipulation i've ever seen in mafia

in light of cuth's flip, this can also be seen in the respective bussing strategies, with cuth/benneh hedging to try and stay in the sweet spot, whereas cuth/achro would be throwing it all down

(no idea where i was going with that, but seems i got somewhere close to giving actual content)

Ah, I have no idea how you play so fair. I only went off of what I saw.

Crass eh? Been awhile since anyone has called me that. I prefer to think of it as straight forward and persuasive.

Although I see no reason why wolf achro ever needs to bus cuth in f7 given the position we were both in. I do admit I do need to work on my marketing as town though, I do come off very mw ha ha ha villainous as town while I am charming as a wolf at times. I am working on being nice all the time.

[Achro]

this post has gotten eaten 3 times and im trying again

achro can you talk to me about how your worldview changed after dya and visor flipped? they were a big part of your solve d2 and then 24 hours later 2/3 were dead and flipped v. curious on what your process was at that point more than the result but you can include the results too

specifically the part before EOD3 or votes though

Sure.

So visor flipped and I laughed. Because what else could I do at that point. I then reminded myself again that if I get upset then I am literally always wrong. Then I didn't think about the game for 24 hours. I needed time. I was confident my first post was going to be a sleep vote though because I just wasn't ready. Then opening happened.

Dya dying didn't really surprise me since my world view was already shattered and ready to start over minus liking cuth of the alive.

I remember as I started to think about the game really liking Katie's pov. They seemed confused by things. Them going 'wait I was starting to buy visor's pov lol me' when ender red checked felt very earnest to me. I felt they were pursuing the truth with how they handled things day 2. I thought that wolf katze also in hindsight wouldn't antagonize me so much day 1 when it was two villagers voting me especially. No need to draw my attention. I got jokes but sk drew my attention as an example.

I remember going through the eods and head tilting more and more at cuth's behavior. I had found you independently wolfy from visor and was compelled by cuth's posts on you as I read day 2. But then I noticed cuth's votes were very strange. Never on you. It was like he was doing everything but voting you. Felt wrong. I went back to eod1 and those votes were also strange to me. I detailed it day 3 but essentially I just thought cuth was incredibly not genuine as it related to his desire to see you hanged.

Got to insomnia because I compared cuth to me in terms of eod wolf play and thought it would be a good play. That was flawed for now obvious reasons but where I was.

Then sk said he was going to cross insomnia soon and uh yeah no. I immediately was like '?' Because I had read through eod2 recently. He and cuth had gotten into a knock down drag out fight eod2. So I was stunned he wasn't even going to make cuth respond to my case or respond to my own case on cuth. So I went back and looked at a recent sk wolf game and the thing he used to juke me is something he does as scum now. It was obvious at that point to me the two were paired wolves.

Then I told winston this and day ended early.

If pr poisoner was two use everything makes sense to my eye. The wolves wanted visor alive to poison him for extra kp and to shoot a town, probably me, and the bus cred on sk would be super valuable. Additionally it would explain why the bg claim was useless - katze had been attempted to be poisoned n3 but nothing happened rendering their claim moot.

Day 4 was mostly me trying to make it obvious that cuth was lying by asking direct questions where he contradicted himself a lot. Turns out winston didn't read that and katze wasn't swayed by more than a hair but we take those. I thought I did an excellent job against cuth but it was probably a bad style for the org. But it worked so maybe it was OK.

[Achro]

this post has gotten eaten 3 times and im trying again

achro can you talk to me about how your worldview changed after dya and visor flipped? they were a big part of your solve d2 and then 24 hours later 2/3 were dead and flipped v. curious on what your process was at that point more than the result but you can include the results too

specifically the part before EOD3 or votes though

Sure.

So visor flipped and I laughed. Because what else could I do at that point. I then reminded myself again that if I get upset then I am literally always wrong. Then I didn't think about the game for 24 hours. I needed time. I was confident my first post was going to be a sleep vote though because I just wasn't ready. Then opening happened.

Dya dying didn't really surprise me since my world view was already shattered and ready to start over minus liking cuth of the alive.

I remember as I started to think about the game really liking Katie's pov. They seemed confused by things. Them going 'wait I was starting to buy visor's pov lol me' when ender red checked felt very earnest to me. I felt they were pursuing the truth with how they handled things day 2. I thought that wolf katze also in hindsight wouldn't antagonize me so much day 1 when it was two villagers voting me especially. No need to draw my attention. I got jokes but sk drew my attention as an example.

I remember going through the eods and head tilting more and more at cuth's behavior. I had found you independently wolfy from visor and was compelled by cuth's posts on you as I read day 2. But then I noticed cuth's votes were very strange. Never on you. It was like he was doing everything but voting you. Felt wrong. I went back to eod1 and those votes were also strange to me. I detailed it day 3 but essentially I just thought cuth was incredibly not genuine as it related to his desire to see you hanged.

Got to insomnia because I compared cuth to me in terms of eod wolf play and thought it would be a good play. That was flawed for now obvious reasons but where I was.

Then sk said he was going to cross insomnia soon and uh yeah no. I immediately was like '?' Because I had read through eod2 recently. He and cuth had gotten into a knock down drag out fight eod2. So I was stunned he wasn't even going to make cuth respond to my case or respond to my own case on cuth. So I went back and looked at a recent sk wolf game and the thing he used to juke me is something he does as scum now. It was obvious at that point to me the two were paired wolves.

Then I told winston this and day ended early.

If pr poisoner was two use everything makes sense to my eye. The wolves wanted visor alive to poison him for extra kp and to shoot a town, probably me, and the bus cred on sk would be super valuable. Additionally it would explain why the bg claim was useless - katze had been attempted to be poisoned n3 but nothing happened rendering their claim moot.

Day 4 was mostly me trying to make it obvious that cuth was lying by asking direct questions where he contradicted himself a lot. Turns out winston didn't read that and katze wasn't swayed by more than a hair but we take those. I thought I did an excellent job against cuth but it was probably a bad style for the org. But it worked so maybe it was OK.