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  1. #1
    Redshirt Member Smack the Rabbit Champion, UFO Shoot Out Champion, Gunman Champion, Fly Sui Champion, The Streaker Champion, Ninja Turtles 1 Champion, Speedy Thief Champion, War In Iraq Champion, Yankee Go Home Champion Logic's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    Quote Originally Posted by dyachei View Post
    i watched dr horrible a long time ago and remember enjoying it but not any details.

    I think visor could easily be a wolf. But I also think he could still be a villager. He's kind of fitting that "could go either way" zone for me rn, but I'm trying to consider other people's reads there

    as for your readslist I have quoted it for ease here

    your read on me kind of sucks and it takes into account what you think I should know about you and gh that I clearly dont. Idk if you're making assumptions about the games I've been in with the two of you but I am stating things that are real to me and it makes no sense I would lie about them as a wolf. That plus "agenda" seems to be the crux of your issue with me and I know i have no agenda

    I'd like to hear more about GH

    and i'd like to now why you think visor is a villager considering everyone else this morning is ready to elim him

    @nebjiamn - gh turn around is because I think logic has major wolf equity this morning and i'd expect gh to pick up on that. I still think how he's playe are villagery for him in a vacuum but GH doesn't suck at this game
    Your hedginess on visor is noted

    Where I am seeing a wolf-siding villager in visor: for one, he's asking one confirmed town and one I suspect of being (mostly) town to kill murska, a LHF that now we know has claimed Doctor (not to be confused with Dr Horrible). I don't see murska as scummy, but that could be the fact that he has posted somewhere in the range of a dozen times thus far.

    Second, visor doesn't seem to have an agenda. He feels too "can't be assed" to GAF, and I don't think that's his scum game.

    Regarding GH: this comes down to a self-absorbed meta read, but the fact that he has only stated my alignment correctly as town and always gotten it wrong when scum has me thinking the trend continues. There definitely is the wifom that he's finally doing it differently this time (because he's scum) but I'm calling GH town and I know I won't be alive to have to reassess.

    And fair enough on "my read sucks" (there) but do you have anything to say about seemingly backing off on your scumread of me between p#779 and p#807 (both yours, but I think p#802 is the one that really is the shows the "progression" that I think it lacking.
    Aliases Yakostovian

  2. #2
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    Quote Originally Posted by Logic View Post
    Your hedginess on visor is noted

    Where I am seeing a wolf-siding villager in visor: for one, he's asking one confirmed town and one I suspect of being (mostly) town to kill murska, a LHF that now we know has claimed Doctor (not to be confused with Dr Horrible). I don't see murska as scummy, but that could be the fact that he has posted somewhere in the range of a dozen times thus far.

    Second, visor doesn't seem to have an agenda. He feels too "can't be assed" to GAF, and I don't think that's his scum game.

    Regarding GH: this comes down to a self-absorbed meta read, but the fact that he has only stated my alignment correctly as town and always gotten it wrong when scum has me thinking the trend continues. There definitely is the wifom that he's finally doing it differently this time (because he's scum) but I'm calling GH town and I know I won't be alive to have to reassess.

    And fair enough on "my read sucks" (there) but do you have anything to say about seemingly backing off on your scumread of me between p#779 and p#807 (both yours, but I think p#802 is the one that really is the shows the "progression" that I think it lacking.
    somebody ping me about this post closer to EOD

    (so like 20 hours from now, or better yet in the final hour of the dayphase)

    I will not be elaborating on it further at this time
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


  3. #3

    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief View Post
    somebody ping me about this post closer to EOD

    (so like 20 hours from now, or better yet in the final hour of the dayphase)

    I will not be elaborating on it further at this time
    lame

    cant you at least tease it a bit more!

  4. #4

    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    Vote: Visor

  5. #5
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    Quote Originally Posted by Logic View Post
    Your hedginess on visor is noted

    Where I am seeing a wolf-siding villager in visor: for one, he's asking one confirmed town and one I suspect of being (mostly) town to kill murska, a LHF that now we know has claimed Doctor (not to be confused with Dr Horrible). I don't see murska as scummy, but that could be the fact that he has posted somewhere in the range of a dozen times thus far.

    Second, visor doesn't seem to have an agenda. He feels too "can't be assed" to GAF, and I don't think that's his scum game.

    Regarding GH: this comes down to a self-absorbed meta read, but the fact that he has only stated my alignment correctly as town and always gotten it wrong when scum has me thinking the trend continues. There definitely is the wifom that he's finally doing it differently this time (because he's scum) but I'm calling GH town and I know I won't be alive to have to reassess.

    And fair enough on "my read sucks" (there) but do you have anything to say about seemingly backing off on your scumread of me between p#779 and p#807 (both yours, but I think p#802 is the one that really is the shows the "progression" that I think it lacking.
    Ok, this post. This is the post where I got fed up enough about Logic to stop caring about staking myself to his alignment in this game.

    The "godread", so to speak, came into being at some point around 2018 (2019?) and peaked in 2020 during a team game where my team (feat. Zack and Visor, all of whom have a good amount of experience with Logic and can typically read him well) hardlocked him as a villager pretty early in d1 and fought off a number of pushes on him. We were n1'd in that game after having effectively perfect reads (this part isn't critical to the post but I just wanted to brag about it :laserlissa:) and the strength of our read held until something ridiculously late like D6 when his slot got POE'd and flipped town.

    Later in 2020 into 2021, things took a turn for the worse, coinciding with a stretch of wolf rands I had in games with Logic. Sometimes he was my partner. Sometimes he was town. And buddy, let me tell you, those games, with that read being known as it was, was rough to play around lol. If we were w/v, I knew I couldn't push him because it would insta-out me after he flipped (and he would flip early because I'd be the one pushing him lol), and if I cleared him, he would be spewed town. If we were w/w, I couldn't bus him and if I tried to clear him it would instantly look suspicious after either of us flipped. People were immediately looking to me for an insta-read on the slot and it sucked lol. Logic progressively became aware of it and I think even he will freely say that he leaned on its accuracy in order to resolve my slot. I eventually disclaimed the "godread" aspect but that was like a month or two before I quit playing so I don't think it took hold. Notably, I'm not sure *Logic* was ever made aware of said disclaiming it.

    ---

    So I stop playing, come back for this, and Logic's in the game! Cool, Logic is my friend. My first thought is "please don't rand wolf". My second is "please don't rand wolf specifically so I don't have to pick back up the Logic song and dance". Mission accomplished, I randed town (no, really, I did! would I lie? ). I was gonna take it nice and easy, not force any reads, just let the game come to me and hopefully that would be enough to get me villaread (oops).

    The way I read Logic is a combination of factors, but it has nothing to do with his actual reads, their consistency (which he's been dinged for this game), or quality. That has never factored in for me. Back in years past, it was primarily based around depth of thought, which I believe Zack alluded to on D1. But there was a gradual shift in his game and mine, and now that's less useful for me. Instead, it's primarily based on "is he classically wolfy?" Was there awkward tiptoeing interactions? Was there a weird case on someone? If the answer was yes, look for the force behind it - if it seemed like he really believed in it, it meant he was probably town, regardless of the actual consistency or quality of the case. If the answer was no, it was a potential bus.

    The first half of d1, when I was shitposting, I was monitoring Logic's posts. They didn't look good. I didn't want to say anything because a) I wanted to give him time to turn it around, and b) I was still shitposting lol. But I definitely said that first irl night that if he posted overnight and didn't improve, I was gonna come in and dumpster in.

    But that overnight, they did improve. It was enough for me to get my read turned around on him. It seemed like he wasn't just kind of poking people with a limp noodle but actually hitting what he perceived as bad posts with some teeth. So I made my read in the thread, figured that I'd get backup from Zack and Visor (who can also read him well, remember), and that would be a nice jump-off point for me getting into the rest of the game.

    lol

    It didn't quite happen that way. Zack had the complete opposite POV, we got into an argument about it, Logic became a major topic of discussion, and I felt myself being dragged back into that world where I HAD to get the read right if I was to have any chance in the game. It was a position I was in a lot as villa in my final games in 2021 before I stopped playing, and now, here it was supercharged: the guy I had a reputation for reading well, going up against a) the consensus top town, b) someone else who could also read him well, and c) a good friend. Great. lol

    I was tired of it, man. I wanted to play mafia. I didn't want to play around Logic's alignment for the fourteenth consecutive game, on d1, and have that dictate the remainder of my future itg. And yes, behind the scenes, Zack's confidence on Logic (and Visor's too, to a lesser extent) did shake me for a bit and had me reconsidering. Did I express any of this in the thread? of course not lol. I guess I was just hoping that the Logic thing would blow over on its own.

    Well, fast forward to d2 and obviously the Logic thing has very much not blown over, as we can see here. Zack died overnight, so he and I couldn't chat about it. Visor's been afk all phase. I was still monitoring Logic's posts but was honestly vacillating as to what I believed in. One stretch looked wolfy and had me question everything. Another stretch made me feel better about him. Back and forth it went.

    And then Logic dropped the post I quoted above (remember that post? I'll wait while you scroll back up) and it had all the same stuff in it that frustrated me back in the day: the overly leaning on my read of him to make a read on me. My perception of him coasting depending on my judgement of him. I read it and I got fed up with it. So I made that post faking that I had made some sort of revelation as to his alignment in order to just kill off discussion for an irl day and to get people looking elsewhere because otherwise it was gonna be the second consecutive gameday of The Great Logic Debate which, just, god I was so not in the mood for.

    ---

    I don't know what Logic's alignment is. Gun to head, I still think he's town, but there's doubt. There's doubt because otherwise my POE is, like, exactly [dya/visor]/Gemma/Vanta, which if that's actually the team I'd be shocked, and idk where to go after that. There's doubt because Logic has not been sustainedly villagery like he was in that one team game back in 2020. There's doubt because it's been years since I've actually seen him in a game.

    I just want it to be done with. I just want to know what Logic's alignment is so I can determine my footing in the thread for the rest of the game and see exactly how long I need to spend preparing my apology to Zack in postgame, whether it's just a couple minutes, or, like, an hour. It doesn't matter as much because Visor is likely dying today which means the Logic debate will continue, but I'm washing my hands of it. Decide and be done with it. The shield is removed. I'm not saying he's a wolf. I'm saying idk lol. I'm free. The godread is dead. If he's a wolf then I'm dying in short order after and at least I get the satisfaction of knowing that I'll never be lashed to this stupid read again if I ever play again. If he's town then at least I was right.
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.

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  6. #6
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    tired: making reads off, like, posts people made in the game and reasoned analyses of the gamestate

    wired: getting vibes off social dynamics both in thread and anticipatory postgame reactions

    (in this scenario, the "wired" set of reads get you put in the POE rather quickly. who knew!)
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.

    Member thankful for this post:



  7. #7

    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief View Post
    Ok, this post. This is the post where I got fed up enough about Logic to stop caring about staking myself to his alignment in this game.

    The "godread", so to speak, came into being at some point around 2018 (2019?) and peaked in 2020 during a team game where my team (feat. Zack and Visor, all of whom have a good amount of experience with Logic and can typically read him well) hardlocked him as a villager pretty early in d1 and fought off a number of pushes on him. We were n1'd in that game after having effectively perfect reads (this part isn't critical to the post but I just wanted to brag about it :laserlissa:) and the strength of our read held until something ridiculously late like D6 when his slot got POE'd and flipped town.

    Later in 2020 into 2021, things took a turn for the worse, coinciding with a stretch of wolf rands I had in games with Logic. Sometimes he was my partner. Sometimes he was town. And buddy, let me tell you, those games, with that read being known as it was, was rough to play around lol. If we were w/v, I knew I couldn't push him because it would insta-out me after he flipped (and he would flip early because I'd be the one pushing him lol), and if I cleared him, he would be spewed town. If we were w/w, I couldn't bus him and if I tried to clear him it would instantly look suspicious after either of us flipped. People were immediately looking to me for an insta-read on the slot and it sucked lol. Logic progressively became aware of it and I think even he will freely say that he leaned on its accuracy in order to resolve my slot. I eventually disclaimed the "godread" aspect but that was like a month or two before I quit playing so I don't think it took hold. Notably, I'm not sure *Logic* was ever made aware of said disclaiming it.

    ---

    So I stop playing, come back for this, and Logic's in the game! Cool, Logic is my friend. My first thought is "please don't rand wolf". My second is "please don't rand wolf specifically so I don't have to pick back up the Logic song and dance". Mission accomplished, I randed town (no, really, I did! would I lie? ). I was gonna take it nice and easy, not force any reads, just let the game come to me and hopefully that would be enough to get me villaread (oops).

    The way I read Logic is a combination of factors, but it has nothing to do with his actual reads, their consistency (which he's been dinged for this game), or quality. That has never factored in for me. Back in years past, it was primarily based around depth of thought, which I believe Zack alluded to on D1. But there was a gradual shift in his game and mine, and now that's less useful for me. Instead, it's primarily based on "is he classically wolfy?" Was there awkward tiptoeing interactions? Was there a weird case on someone? If the answer was yes, look for the force behind it - if it seemed like he really believed in it, it meant he was probably town, regardless of the actual consistency or quality of the case. If the answer was no, it was a potential bus.

    The first half of d1, when I was shitposting, I was monitoring Logic's posts. They didn't look good. I didn't want to say anything because a) I wanted to give him time to turn it around, and b) I was still shitposting lol. But I definitely said that first irl night that if he posted overnight and didn't improve, I was gonna come in and dumpster in.

    But that overnight, they did improve. It was enough for me to get my read turned around on him. It seemed like he wasn't just kind of poking people with a limp noodle but actually hitting what he perceived as bad posts with some teeth. So I made my read in the thread, figured that I'd get backup from Zack and Visor (who can also read him well, remember), and that would be a nice jump-off point for me getting into the rest of the game.

    lol

    It didn't quite happen that way. Zack had the complete opposite POV, we got into an argument about it, Logic became a major topic of discussion, and I felt myself being dragged back into that world where I HAD to get the read right if I was to have any chance in the game. It was a position I was in a lot as villa in my final games in 2021 before I stopped playing, and now, here it was supercharged: the guy I had a reputation for reading well, going up against a) the consensus top town, b) someone else who could also read him well, and c) a good friend. Great. lol

    I was tired of it, man. I wanted to play mafia. I didn't want to play around Logic's alignment for the fourteenth consecutive game, on d1, and have that dictate the remainder of my future itg. And yes, behind the scenes, Zack's confidence on Logic (and Visor's too, to a lesser extent) did shake me for a bit and had me reconsidering. Did I express any of this in the thread? of course not lol. I guess I was just hoping that the Logic thing would blow over on its own.

    Well, fast forward to d2 and obviously the Logic thing has very much not blown over, as we can see here. Zack died overnight, so he and I couldn't chat about it. Visor's been afk all phase. I was still monitoring Logic's posts but was honestly vacillating as to what I believed in. One stretch looked wolfy and had me question everything. Another stretch made me feel better about him. Back and forth it went.

    And then Logic dropped the post I quoted above (remember that post? I'll wait while you scroll back up) and it had all the same stuff in it that frustrated me back in the day: the overly leaning on my read of him to make a read on me. My perception of him coasting depending on my judgement of him. I read it and I got fed up with it. So I made that post faking that I had made some sort of revelation as to his alignment in order to just kill off discussion for an irl day and to get people looking elsewhere because otherwise it was gonna be the second consecutive gameday of The Great Logic Debate which, just, god I was so not in the mood for.

    ---

    I don't know what Logic's alignment is. Gun to head, I still think he's town, but there's doubt. There's doubt because otherwise my POE is, like, exactly [dya/visor]/Gemma/Vanta, which if that's actually the team I'd be shocked, and idk where to go after that. There's doubt because Logic has not been sustainedly villagery like he was in that one team game back in 2020. There's doubt because it's been years since I've actually seen him in a game.

    I just want it to be done with. I just want to know what Logic's alignment is so I can determine my footing in the thread for the rest of the game and see exactly how long I need to spend preparing my apology to Zack in postgame, whether it's just a couple minutes, or, like, an hour. It doesn't matter as much because Visor is likely dying today which means the Logic debate will continue, but I'm washing my hands of it. Decide and be done with it. The shield is removed. I'm not saying he's a wolf. I'm saying idk lol. I'm free. The godread is dead. If he's a wolf then I'm dying in short order after and at least I get the satisfaction of knowing that I'll never be lashed to this stupid read again if I ever play again. If he's town then at least I was right.
    thanks. give me a minute to digest this and i'll respond to you shortly with my thoughts

  8. #8
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    zack, in dvc reading the above: "idk why you just talked this through in the thread man, we could have avoided all this"

    me, with a cutting response: "s-shut up ok"
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.

    Member thankful for this post:

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  9. #9

    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    My pov on that is it was a lot of words to say you don't know logics alignment and you still suss the same people.

    I get why you don't want to play around it but like. You could have just said that

  10. #10
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    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    Quote Originally Posted by dyachei View Post
    I get why you don't want to play around it but like. You could have just said that
    s-shut up ok
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


  11. #11
    alien shapeshifter Member Hally's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    tl;dr - we got pranked

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    Quote Originally Posted by nebjiamn View Post
    thanks. give me a minute to digest this and i'll respond to you shortly with my thoughts
    i just realized benneh probably intentionally capped with this post lol

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    So if Visor flips red I'm basically the auto d3 and should start preparing my lolcats start giving the town a blueprint for d4 and beyond, right?

    Do I get a temporary reprieve if he flips green, or is it "wait, I'm not ready to fully reexamine the POE yet, let's just flip GH to see how much reeval we need to do?"

    All kidding aside, I would be grateful to be made aware of my exact status going into d3 just so I don't unnecessarily get my hopes up or something.
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


  14. #14

    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    okay, I'm back

    sorry for being awol, but that's life

    not sure i will be able to not die lol but i'm not exactly going to shed tears if i do lol

  15. #15

    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    i will say, i don't really understand why I am a wagon of any strength, yeah i've been afk today but that doesn't make my posts retroactively wolfy

    and i don't think I did anything particularly wolfy anyway (you could argue i lacked villageriness and sure i guess but so have the last like 10 games i've played lol)

  16. #16

    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief View Post
    Ok, this post. This is the post where I got fed up enough about Logic to stop caring about staking myself to his alignment in this game.

    The "godread", so to speak, came into being at some point around 2018 (2019?) and peaked in 2020 during a team game where my team (feat. Zack and Visor, all of whom have a good amount of experience with Logic and can typically read him well) hardlocked him as a villager pretty early in d1 and fought off a number of pushes on him. We were n1'd in that game after having effectively perfect reads (this part isn't critical to the post but I just wanted to brag about it :laserlissa:) and the strength of our read held until something ridiculously late like D6 when his slot got POE'd and flipped town.

    Later in 2020 into 2021, things took a turn for the worse, coinciding with a stretch of wolf rands I had in games with Logic. Sometimes he was my partner. Sometimes he was town. And buddy, let me tell you, those games, with that read being known as it was, was rough to play around lol. If we were w/v, I knew I couldn't push him because it would insta-out me after he flipped (and he would flip early because I'd be the one pushing him lol), and if I cleared him, he would be spewed town. If we were w/w, I couldn't bus him and if I tried to clear him it would instantly look suspicious after either of us flipped. People were immediately looking to me for an insta-read on the slot and it sucked lol. Logic progressively became aware of it and I think even he will freely say that he leaned on its accuracy in order to resolve my slot. I eventually disclaimed the "godread" aspect but that was like a month or two before I quit playing so I don't think it took hold. Notably, I'm not sure *Logic* was ever made aware of said disclaiming it.

    ---

    So I stop playing, come back for this, and Logic's in the game! Cool, Logic is my friend. My first thought is "please don't rand wolf". My second is "please don't rand wolf specifically so I don't have to pick back up the Logic song and dance". Mission accomplished, I randed town (no, really, I did! would I lie? ). I was gonna take it nice and easy, not force any reads, just let the game come to me and hopefully that would be enough to get me villaread (oops).

    The way I read Logic is a combination of factors, but it has nothing to do with his actual reads, their consistency (which he's been dinged for this game), or quality. That has never factored in for me. Back in years past, it was primarily based around depth of thought, which I believe Zack alluded to on D1. But there was a gradual shift in his game and mine, and now that's less useful for me. Instead, it's primarily based on "is he classically wolfy?" Was there awkward tiptoeing interactions? Was there a weird case on someone? If the answer was yes, look for the force behind it - if it seemed like he really believed in it, it meant he was probably town, regardless of the actual consistency or quality of the case. If the answer was no, it was a potential bus.

    The first half of d1, when I was shitposting, I was monitoring Logic's posts. They didn't look good. I didn't want to say anything because a) I wanted to give him time to turn it around, and b) I was still shitposting lol. But I definitely said that first irl night that if he posted overnight and didn't improve, I was gonna come in and dumpster in.

    But that overnight, they did improve. It was enough for me to get my read turned around on him. It seemed like he wasn't just kind of poking people with a limp noodle but actually hitting what he perceived as bad posts with some teeth. So I made my read in the thread, figured that I'd get backup from Zack and Visor (who can also read him well, remember), and that would be a nice jump-off point for me getting into the rest of the game.

    lol

    It didn't quite happen that way. Zack had the complete opposite POV, we got into an argument about it, Logic became a major topic of discussion, and I felt myself being dragged back into that world where I HAD to get the read right if I was to have any chance in the game. It was a position I was in a lot as villa in my final games in 2021 before I stopped playing, and now, here it was supercharged: the guy I had a reputation for reading well, going up against a) the consensus top town, b) someone else who could also read him well, and c) a good friend. Great. lol

    I was tired of it, man. I wanted to play mafia. I didn't want to play around Logic's alignment for the fourteenth consecutive game, on d1, and have that dictate the remainder of my future itg. And yes, behind the scenes, Zack's confidence on Logic (and Visor's too, to a lesser extent) did shake me for a bit and had me reconsidering. Did I express any of this in the thread? of course not lol. I guess I was just hoping that the Logic thing would blow over on its own.

    Well, fast forward to d2 and obviously the Logic thing has very much not blown over, as we can see here. Zack died overnight, so he and I couldn't chat about it. Visor's been afk all phase. I was still monitoring Logic's posts but was honestly vacillating as to what I believed in. One stretch looked wolfy and had me question everything. Another stretch made me feel better about him. Back and forth it went.

    And then Logic dropped the post I quoted above (remember that post? I'll wait while you scroll back up) and it had all the same stuff in it that frustrated me back in the day: the overly leaning on my read of him to make a read on me. My perception of him coasting depending on my judgement of him. I read it and I got fed up with it. So I made that post faking that I had made some sort of revelation as to his alignment in order to just kill off discussion for an irl day and to get people looking elsewhere because otherwise it was gonna be the second consecutive gameday of The Great Logic Debate which, just, god I was so not in the mood for.

    ---

    I don't know what Logic's alignment is. Gun to head, I still think he's town, but there's doubt. There's doubt because otherwise my POE is, like, exactly [dya/visor]/Gemma/Vanta, which if that's actually the team I'd be shocked, and idk where to go after that. There's doubt because Logic has not been sustainedly villagery like he was in that one team game back in 2020. There's doubt because it's been years since I've actually seen him in a game.

    I just want it to be done with. I just want to know what Logic's alignment is so I can determine my footing in the thread for the rest of the game and see exactly how long I need to spend preparing my apology to Zack in postgame, whether it's just a couple minutes, or, like, an hour. It doesn't matter as much because Visor is likely dying today which means the Logic debate will continue, but I'm washing my hands of it. Decide and be done with it. The shield is removed. I'm not saying he's a wolf. I'm saying idk lol. I'm free. The godread is dead. If he's a wolf then I'm dying in short order after and at least I get the satisfaction of knowing that I'll never be lashed to this stupid read again if I ever play again. If he's town then at least I was right.
    good grief

  17. #17

    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    I just want to say that I spent like two days reading "drop the shield" as meaning "remove the shield" so I was very confused.

  18. #18
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    free read: somebody who pushes the "GH has to die because he had the AUDACITY to mislead us about Logic on d2!" angle is a wolf

    if you're a wolf looking to seal the mislim, it will be much more under the radar if you instead push me for my shallow overall gamestate thoughts and poor interactions with/about the first two flipped wolves

    remember this for d5
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


  19. #19
    alien shapeshifter Member Hally's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    hey guys i think we should lunch gh for his shallow overall gamestate thoughts and poor interactions with/about the first two flipped wolves

    Member thankful for this post:

    Wisdom 


  20. #20

    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    Guys I think we should lunch GH for misleading us horribly about his Logic read.

  21. #21

    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    hey guys how about we lunch gh just for fun, for no particular reason

  22. #22

    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    Quote Originally Posted by Hally View Post
    hey guys i think we should lunch gh for his shallow overall gamestate thoughts and poor interactions with/about the first two flipped wolves
    No I think we should lunch him because he misled us about Logic on D2.

  23. #23

    Default Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs

    Curse you, Bl...uh, Ender!

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