17er Saints and Martyrs

[Totally not Taffy]

How tf is there another character called "Moist"?!

Vote Count

Visor (4) : Raskolnikov, Wisdom, Benneh, Hally
Dyachei (1) : Logic
Logic (1) : Dyachei
Arctic (1) : Ender

Haven't voted: Visor, Murska, Arctic, Ladd, Vanta, Jan, GH, Gemma

Haven't posted today: Gemma, Visor

Vote History
If you made a vote that wasn't counted, please link it to me on discord

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Vote: Visor

Vote: Visor

Vote: Dya

Vote: Visor

vote: visor

vote: logic

Vote: Arctic

Post Counts

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EoD1 post counts for easy math:

This is 3am. You're all spoiled, and you owe me flowers.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Following up, I've read/reread Ender's d2 posts from a few hours ago and they seem decent enough to me, not gonna move him up a tier in my reads but don't really have any interest in moving him down either.

Onto responses to my big post:

Does your read on me really boil down to you expected me to.make a tone read on you after 3 years of not playing games with you or even seeing you around much at all?

I think that's a pretty unreasonable expectation.

21/50

No. It is an aspect of it. It is not the full picture, but it is part of the picture. If you genuinely came away from that post with that thought that that aspect was the main crux of my case against you, I apologize, that was not my intent. It was a combination of that + me not fully believing your turnaround on Logic using the stated reasoning + my belief that there's one in you/Visor and, yes, perhaps me giving Visor somewhat of the benefit of the doubt as benneh mentioned + general POE stuff (which also plays a part in me thinking there's exactly one in you/Visor and not just the both of you being v/v, because then who are the wolves lol).

idt much needs to be rocked today. by my estimation, the lunch is ~always between visor and logic and i am a big fan of those wagons (moreso visor atm). but i also don't think this is accurate? dare i say i was the person who first started clearing and building what is now the accepted towncore for the game in rask/jan/ladd(and previously zack) and even hally a bit

i also pushed on you and i think you'd probly agree regardless of ur alignment that's not a 'don't rock the boat' push for anyone in this list


as for the rest of your list i don't really get why you're leaning dya over visor here even though i read your whys. i feel like ur stuck on something with them that probably doesn't matter but ur giving visor the benefit of the doubt* when i think he deserves it far less than dya rn?

*i know you're not actually giving visor 'the benefit of the doubt' since you called that dichotomy to have a wolf but i hope my point is clear

I'll admit that I did not concentrate on the "big part in building the towncore" aspect of your posts when going back over your stuff (and I don't want to do it now because I've already spent too much time as it is going back over stuff), so I'll straight up give you THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT on that one. However, in terms of the "pushing GH not being a 'don't rock the boat' example", I'm gonna push back on that - I started catching heat to various degrees shortly after I actually started playing this game for real and I was quite pushable for a good period of time back in 2020/21 even before I stopped playing. You may not be aware of this, but others itg (ladd, hally, probably dya?) can attest to as much.

As for giving Visor the benefit of the doubt, probably fair. Zack/me getting as heated as it did on d1 did shake me up a bit and it's probably spilling over. I'll see how he posts once he comes back and go from there.

[EnderWiggin]

Wild change of mind time.

We veering at 360 speeds on this road.

Vote: Gemma

So I was rereading D1 to get a feel of Arctic (And hopefully a case) when I started reading Gemma posts and have now decided that her townreading me when I was feeling attacked has meant I've ignored her slot probably more than I should've?

[EnderWiggin]

Gemma/ender i also have as not aligned iirc

Wild change of mind time.

We veering at 360 speeds on this road.

Vote: Gemma

So I was rereading D1 to get a feel of Arctic (And hopefully a case) when I started reading Gemma posts and have now decided that her townreading me when I was feeling attacked has meant I've ignored her slot probably more than I should've?

Gemma vote is partially because of these posts. I figured I should probably post these instead of just naked changing votes.

I lied I found another sequence that I think is actually clearing.

Also yes included Ladd's note because all his associative reads have been proven correct this game so far. =P

[dyachei]

so why are you giving visor benefit of the doubt while you assume I should be able to tone read you this far out

My turn around on logic was because zack died repping a very strong wolf read there and my reason for v reading you was not the strongest reason to begin with, though I did believe it day 1.

I've done a lot more than visor has that should make me readable

22/50

[GeneralHankerchief]

so why are you giving visor benefit of the doubt while you assume I should be able to tone read you this far out

My turn around on logic was because zack died repping a very strong wolf read there and my reason for v reading you was not the strongest reason to begin with, though I did believe it day 1.

I've done a lot more than visor has that should make me readable

22/50

re: visor, the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT stuff is mostly social stuff that I feel kind of icky getting into, but let's do it anyway

you and I are friends, we've been friends for some time and keep in touch with each other over Discord occasionally despite my departure from MU. Life updates, wine memes, cute shots of Amy and Calvin, that sort of thing, a few times a year.

Visor and I are friends too but he and I regularly chat frequently just shooting the shit. I'm not saying I consider him to be a better friend than you (or the reverse), it's just that due to circumstances (active mutual Discord servers) he and I interact way more frequently than you and I do. Of this playerlist, the only person I chat with on a more regular basis than Visor is Zack. There's a big gap between those two and benneh, then another big gap to you, and then Logic, then everybody else.

The reason I bring all of this up is just because of how d1 went down, there's gonna be some postgame debrief between Zack and myself centered around Logic as well as other stuff. We didn't end d1 on a good note and with him dying there's no chance to rectify it ITT. I don't want to have to do that twice to the only other person ITG I talk to remotely as frequently as Zack - Visor - and get the read wrong there. So yes, I'm somewhat tiptoeing around Visor. I have the two of you on the same tier of suspicion and that is part of the reason why I'm currently leaning you over Visor, because I don't want to go there unless I'm sure to save myself some postgame regret. The tone read stuff you mentioned doesn't really come to play with the specific "benefit of the doubt" argument.

I have roughly 35 hours to make a final decision on this matter. It is not especially relevant if I'm leaning one way or the other currently. You both will post more between now and EOD and I will judge them accordingly.

---

As for your stated turnaround on Logic, I get what you're saying, but I feel like there are a number of reasons why Zack could have died last night as discussed here, and it felt like you just kind of plowed ahead with your reasoning without even acknowledging the what-I-find-to-be-very-plausible alternatives, which conveniently shoves me near the bottom of your POE. And let's be real here, if you're a wolf, you know I'm a mislunch you HAVE to have unless you've got a deep partner.

(inb4 "I could say the same about you" - yes, you could! isn't mafia fun! )

[GeneralHankerchief]

burning a post to say that I've still got this cold that I can't shake so I'll be heading to bed early again. Will be around sporadically for the next half hourish, and then dreamland.

[dyachei]

re: visor, the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT stuff is mostly social stuff that I feel kind of icky getting into, but let's do it anyway

you and I are friends, we've been friends for some time and keep in touch with each other over Discord occasionally despite my departure from MU. Life updates, wine memes, cute shots of Amy and Calvin, that sort of thing, a few times a year.

Visor and I are friends too but he and I regularly chat frequently just shooting the shit. I'm not saying I consider him to be a better friend than you (or the reverse), it's just that due to circumstances (active mutual Discord servers) he and I interact way more frequently than you and I do. Of this playerlist, the only person I chat with on a more regular basis than Visor is Zack. There's a big gap between those two and benneh, then another big gap to you, and then Logic, then everybody else.

The reason I bring all of this up is just because of how d1 went down, there's gonna be some postgame debrief between Zack and myself centered around Logic as well as other stuff. We didn't end d1 on a good note and with him dying there's no chance to rectify it ITT. I don't want to have to do that twice to the only other person ITG I talk to remotely as frequently as Zack - Visor - and get the read wrong there. So yes, I'm somewhat tiptoeing around Visor. I have the two of you on the same tier of suspicion and that is part of the reason why I'm currently leaning you over Visor, because I don't want to go there unless I'm sure to save myself some postgame regret. The tone read stuff you mentioned doesn't really come to play with the specific "benefit of the doubt" argument.

I have roughly 35 hours to make a final decision on this matter. It is not especially relevant if I'm leaning one way or the other currently. You both will post more between now and EOD and I will judge them accordingly.

---

As for your stated turnaround on Logic, I get what you're saying, but I feel like there are a number of reasons why Zack could have died last night as discussed here, and it felt like you just kind of plowed ahead with your reasoning without even acknowledging the what-I-find-to-be-very-plausible alternatives, which conveniently shoves me near the bottom of your POE. And let's be real here, if you're a wolf, you know I'm a mislunch you HAVE to have unless you've got a deep partner.

(inb4 "I could say the same about you" - yes, you could! isn't mafia fun! )

but that's not my only reasoning and I feel like I've made that clear. I can't help but think part of this is still based on the misunderstanding about what I was saying.

I don't think zack died to implicate logic at all. I think zack died because he was the most v read player in the game, and it really has nothing to do with my logic read. I am going to take into account his read though because he's a flipped villager.

More damning to me are the wagonomics and logic's lack of towny thoughts. I was willing to go to bat for your read because I actually know it tends to be good as opposed to zack saying his read is good (never seen it in action but it could be as good as your read, idk).

but that said, your alignment came into question for me today because of your treatment of syn (and yes, I treated him similarly). But it made me question my read on you and that means that I'm questioning my read on logic. He has assured me in thread that you would lie for him

23/50

[dyachei]

i feel like a lot of this game is assuming why im reading people a certain way and are ignoring the reasons that I'm stating in the thread and I'm not sure if this is a me problem (not explaining adequately) or a "you" problem because I am saying things that are just being dismissed

[Hally]

re: visor, the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT stuff is mostly social stuff that I feel kind of icky getting into, but let's do it anyway

you and I are friends, we've been friends for some time and keep in touch with each other over Discord occasionally despite my departure from MU. Life updates, wine memes, cute shots of Amy and Calvin, that sort of thing, a few times a year.

Visor and I are friends too but he and I regularly chat frequently just shooting the shit. I'm not saying I consider him to be a better friend than you (or the reverse), it's just that due to circumstances (active mutual Discord servers) he and I interact way more frequently than you and I do. Of this playerlist, the only person I chat with on a more regular basis than Visor is Zack. There's a big gap between those two and benneh, then another big gap to you, and then Logic, then everybody else.

The reason I bring all of this up is just because of how d1 went down, there's gonna be some postgame debrief between Zack and myself centered around Logic as well as other stuff. We didn't end d1 on a good note and with him dying there's no chance to rectify it ITT. I don't want to have to do that twice to the only other person ITG I talk to remotely as frequently as Zack - Visor - and get the read wrong there. So yes, I'm somewhat tiptoeing around Visor. I have the two of you on the same tier of suspicion and that is part of the reason why I'm currently leaning you over Visor, because I don't want to go there unless I'm sure to save myself some postgame regret. The tone read stuff you mentioned doesn't really come to play with the specific "benefit of the doubt" argument.

I have roughly 35 hours to make a final decision on this matter. It is not especially relevant if I'm leaning one way or the other currently. You both will post more between now and EOD and I will judge them accordingly.

uhm

is this in gh’s wolf range? because it’s kinda winning me over but not sure if i’m just a sucker

[Jan]

uhm

is this in gh’s wolf range? because it’s kinda winning me over but not sure if i’m just a sucker

I think the core of it is to some extent NAI. (you can question if he would come up with this as a wolf or say it as a wolf. but the content itself is likely just true and matters not for his alignment)
And he would be good enough to frame it as either alignment properly.

The art of wolfing is using emotions invoked by something in the thread and redirecting them to something else that is adjacent to the top and getting villa-read for it.


Unrelated:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I feel like Vanta Black is a villager, but I have ZERO evidence.

More unrelated:

I dipped out earlier because I didn't want to use up too many of my posts before the Australians (mainly gemma and visor) have a chance to actually play the game because that is where people were looking more and it felt like a pointless pile on.
Saying this because GH's thought of giving space or benefit of the doubt is not unique. His reasoning is more personal ofc but I don't think the visor stuff is slam dunk and watching visor do something today is what we need to move forward on that front.

[Logic]

I think the core of it is to some extent NAI. (you can question if he would come up with this as a wolf or say it as a wolf. but the content itself is likely just true and matters not for his alignment)
And he would be good enough to frame it as either alignment properly.

The art of wolfing is using emotions invoked by something in the thread and redirecting them to something else that is adjacent to the top and getting villa-read for it.


Unrelated:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I feel like Vanta Black is a villager, but I have ZERO evidence.

More unrelated:

I dipped out earlier because I didn't want to use up too many of my posts before the Australians (mainly gemma and visor) have a chance to actually play the game because that is where people were looking more and it felt like a pointless pile on.
Saying this because GH's thought of giving space or benefit of the doubt is not unique. His reasoning is more personal ofc but I don't think the visor stuff is slam dunk and watching visor do something today is what we need to move forward on that front.

Jan, RE: your spoiler:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(I may have picked this gif because I was inspired by one picked by GH. Accuse me of pocketing. I dare you.)

[Jan]

I think the core of it is to some extent NAI. (you can question if he would come up with this as a wolf or say it as a wolf. but the content itself is likely just true and matters not for his alignment)
And he would be good enough to frame it as either alignment properly.

The art of wolfing is using emotions invoked by something in the thread and redirecting them to something else that is adjacent to the top and getting villa-read for it.


Unrelated:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I feel like Vanta Black is a villager, but I have ZERO evidence.

More unrelated:

I dipped out earlier because I didn't want to use up too many of my posts before the Australians (mainly gemma and visor) have a chance to actually play the game because that is where people were looking more and it felt like a pointless pile on.
Saying this because GH's thought of giving space or benefit of the doubt is not unique. His reasoning is more personal ofc but I don't think the visor stuff is slam dunk and watching visor do something today is what we need to move forward on that front.

To maybe rephrase this less vague:

I think GH as wolf does not mind duping his friends and getting one over on them, but does not enjoy fighting/clashing with them.
That applies to him as villager clashing with his friends as well.

The emotional part of that post is just real and the narrative surrounding it too. I don't think it speaks to his alignment.
Wolves are less likely to use it/come up with it, but a capable wolf will.

I think he gets villagepoints for it because there was no actual agenda to the evoked emotions. (the want to buy visor a little bit of time doesn't achieve anything. it simply explains the difference between the dya/visor read which has little to no impact on the game).

[Gemma]

I dipped out earlier because I didn't want to use up too many of my posts before the Australians (mainly gemma and visor) have a chance to actually play the game because that is where people were looking more and it felt like a pointless pile on.

impossible for me to play mafia today due to things but regardless i doubt i have anything groundbreaking to share

i have no reañ reads tbh and pretty happy to just continue to get carried, also dont think im hugely in danger of being yeeted this game despite current appearances

but fire away!

[Vanta Black]

uhm

is this in gh’s wolf range? because it’s kinda winning me over but not sure if i’m just a sucker

Can you explain why it's winning you over? Maybe it shoudl be obvious but it's not, to me.

[Vanta Black]

I am not clickikng on another spoiler in this game ever!!!

[Vanta Black]

Can you explain why it's winning you over? Maybe it shoudl be obvious but it's not, to me.

Oh yeah forgot to add, from the players I know in this game, just based on that I wouldn't think anything was out of anybody's wolf range.

[Totally not Taffy]

Thank you, thank you!

Vote Count

Visor (4) : Raskolnikov, Wisdom, Benneh, Hally
Dyachei (1) : Logic
Logic (1) : Dyachei
Gemma (1) : Ender

Haven't voted: Visor, Murska, Arctic, Ladd, Vanta, Jan, GH, Gemma


Vote History
If you made a vote that wasn't counted, please link it to me on discord

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Vote: Visor

Vote: Visor

Vote: Dya

Vote: Visor

vote: visor

vote: logic

Vote: Arctic

Vote: Gemma

Post Counts

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EoD1 post counts for easy math:

The 36-hour vote count will be delayed bc I'll be driving to the airport at that time.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Vote: Gemma

out with it

[EnderWiggin]

Vote: Logic

For reasons.

Also tired and had a long day. More from this channel tomorrow.

[Totally not Taffy]

Mission accomplished!

Vote Count

Visor (4) : Raskolnikov, Wisdom, Benneh, Hally
Logic (2) : Dyachei, Ender
Gemma (1) : GH
Arctic (1) : Logic

Haven't voted: Visor, Murska, Arctic, Ladd, Vanta, Jan, Gemma


Vote History
If you made a vote that wasn't counted, please link it to me on discord

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Vote: Visor

Vote: Visor

Vote: Dya

Vote: Visor

vote: visor

vote: logic

Vote: Arctic

Vote: Gemma

Vote: Gemma

Vote: Logic

Unvote: Dya

Vote: Arctic

Post Counts

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EoD1 post counts for easy math:

It is now 6am and I'm going to bed. Sorry Benneh, no flips during naptime.

[Totally not Taffy]

Eh yeah maybe I wanna leave Visor's nuts to Benneh lol

Vote Count

Visor (4) : Raskolnikov, Benneh, Hally, Vanta
Gemma (2) : GH, Ender
Benneh (2) : Wisdom, Visor
Logic (1) : Dyachei
Arctic (1) : Logic

Haven't voted: Murska, Arctic, Ladd, Jan, Gemma


Vote History
If you made a vote that wasn't counted, please link it to me on discord

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Vote: Visor

Vote: Visor

Vote: Dya

Vote: Visor

vote: visor

vote: logic

Vote: Arctic

Vote: Gemma

Vote: Gemma

Vote: Logic

Unvote: Dya

Vote: Arctic

Vote: gemma

Vote: Gemma

vote: Visor

Vote:Benneh

Vote: nebjiamn

Post Counts

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EoD1 post counts for easy math:

Postcap lifted, see you in an hour!

[Totally not Taffy]

Please stop posting, final vote count inc.

[Totally not Taffy]

Vote Count

Visor (7) : Raskolnikov, Benneh, Hally, Vanta, Arctic, Murska, Ladd
Benneh (2) : Wisdom, Jan
Gemma (2) : Visor, GH
Logic (1) : Dyachei
Arctic (1) : Logic
GH (1) : Ender

Hasn't voted: Gemma


Vote History
If you made a vote that wasn't counted, please link it to me on discord

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Vote: Visor

Vote: Visor

Vote: Dya

Vote: Visor

vote: visor

vote: logic

Vote: Arctic

Vote: Gemma

Vote: Gemma

Vote: Logic

Unvote: Dya

Vote: Arctic

Vote: gemma

Vote: Gemma

vote: Visor

Vote:Benneh

Vote: nebjiamn

Vote: Benneh

Vote: benneh

vote: Visor

Vote: Benneh

Vote: Visor

Vote: Arctic

Vote: gemma

Vote: Gemma

vote:logic

vote:visor

Vote: GH

Post Counts

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EoD1 post counts for easy math:

Please stand by for flip and flavour.

[Totally not Taffy]

The joys of late-game vote counts!

Vote Count


Haven't voted: Arctic, Ender, Hally, Dyachei


Vote History
If you made a vote that wasn't counted, please link it to me on discord

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Your vote could be here!

Post Counts

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EoD7 post counts for easy math:

Comic from The Abominable Charles Christopher

[Totally not Taffy]

Hurry up and join our party in the deadchat!

Vote Count

Logic (2) : Dyachei, Murska
GH (1) : Hally

Haven't voted: Arctic, Ladd, Vanta, GH, Gemma, Ender, Wisdom, Raskolnikov, Logic, Benneh

Hasn't posted today: Vanta

Vote History
If you made a vote that wasn't counted, please link it to me on discord

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

vote: logic

vote: GH

Vote: Logic

Post Counts

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EoD2 post counts for easy math:

Once Vanta posts, you need 7 votes to hammer.

[Logic]

Since this day only ends one of two ways, I am okay with hammering.

Vote: GH

[Totally not Taffy]

Final Vote Count

GH (7) : Hally, Logic, Benneh, Vanta, Gemma, Ladd, Wisdom
Logic (2) : Dyachei, Murska


Haven't voted: Arctic, GH, Ender, Raskolnikov


Vote History
If you made a vote that wasn't counted, please link it to me on discord

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

vote: logic

vote: GH

Vote: Logic

Vote: GH

vote: GH

Vote GH

vote:gh

unvote:gh

Vote: GH

vote: GH

Vote: GH

Post Counts

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EoD2 post counts for easy math:

Flip will be another 10mins.

[Totally not Taffy]

Saint Fogle was always destined for greatness, despite being born on a pirate ship. He and his twin brother grew up with the smells of lye, guts, and gun powder. One stormy night, while on a desperate run from two navy vessels, their ship hit rock bottom and the enemy drew close, ready to blow them all up and hang all who got captured. Saint Fogle alone kept his wits about him and not only bought them enough time for the tide to come in, he then deftly navigated the shallows and escaped the enemy. The crew wished to make him their new captain, but he passed the hat to his brother and became first mate instead. After gathering uncountable wealth they went ashore to spend it, only to find the harbour besieged by a giant. Once again Saint Fogle saved the day by distracting the giant while his brother hurried back to the ship and fire its cannons at it. The grateful crowd carried them on their shoulders to the palace, and chanted for their childless monarch to adopt the brothers and name Saint Fogle as heir. Immer humble, Saint Fogle stepped aside once more and served as a loyal minister to his brother-king, even following him in death.

GH was a Town Saint (VT)

Shortened night if I get all night actions within the next three hours.

[Totally not Taffy]

Saint Baccano was an unrelenting murderer. It had taken two squadrons to capture him and put him in jail, and the decision to free him was met with much disbelief and scorn. However, the empress was desperate to save her people from the seemingly unstoppable hordes of darkness, and all the auguries and oracles told her the same: some evils can only be vanquished by a greater evil. The lesser forces fell easily enough to his knife, but finally Saint Baccano had to face off against that which couldn't be killed, an enemy of pure shadow who couldn't bleed. Knowing this would end his own life as well, Saint Baccano doused himself in greek fire and simply walked up to this "invincible" enemy. They looked eachother in the face, one tall, and handsome, and just a little bit fat, the other a determined assassin with a lighter in his hand. He fired himself up, threw his arms around the other in a tight hug, and did not let go until both were consumed by the flames.

Ladd is a Town Martyr



As I'm sure you've all surmised, day will start 24hrs early