17er Saints and Martyrs

[EnderWiggin]

why tho

he called me based

ur based

:((

Gemma vote is partially because of these posts. I figured I should probably post these instead of just naked changing votes.

[GeneralHankerchief]

so why are you giving visor benefit of the doubt while you assume I should be able to tone read you this far out

My turn around on logic was because zack died repping a very strong wolf read there and my reason for v reading you was not the strongest reason to begin with, though I did believe it day 1.

I've done a lot more than visor has that should make me readable

22/50

re: visor, the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT stuff is mostly social stuff that I feel kind of icky getting into, but let's do it anyway

you and I are friends, we've been friends for some time and keep in touch with each other over Discord occasionally despite my departure from MU. Life updates, wine memes, cute shots of Amy and Calvin, that sort of thing, a few times a year.

Visor and I are friends too but he and I regularly chat frequently just shooting the shit. I'm not saying I consider him to be a better friend than you (or the reverse), it's just that due to circumstances (active mutual Discord servers) he and I interact way more frequently than you and I do. Of this playerlist, the only person I chat with on a more regular basis than Visor is Zack. There's a big gap between those two and benneh, then another big gap to you, and then Logic, then everybody else.

The reason I bring all of this up is just because of how d1 went down, there's gonna be some postgame debrief between Zack and myself centered around Logic as well as other stuff. We didn't end d1 on a good note and with him dying there's no chance to rectify it ITT. I don't want to have to do that twice to the only other person ITG I talk to remotely as frequently as Zack - Visor - and get the read wrong there. So yes, I'm somewhat tiptoeing around Visor. I have the two of you on the same tier of suspicion and that is part of the reason why I'm currently leaning you over Visor, because I don't want to go there unless I'm sure to save myself some postgame regret. The tone read stuff you mentioned doesn't really come to play with the specific "benefit of the doubt" argument.

I have roughly 35 hours to make a final decision on this matter. It is not especially relevant if I'm leaning one way or the other currently. You both will post more between now and EOD and I will judge them accordingly.

---

As for your stated turnaround on Logic, I get what you're saying, but I feel like there are a number of reasons why Zack could have died last night as discussed here, and it felt like you just kind of plowed ahead with your reasoning without even acknowledging the what-I-find-to-be-very-plausible alternatives, which conveniently shoves me near the bottom of your POE. And let's be real here, if you're a wolf, you know I'm a mislunch you HAVE to have unless you've got a deep partner.

(inb4 "I could say the same about you" - yes, you could! isn't mafia fun! )

[GeneralHankerchief]

burning a post to say that I've still got this cold that I can't shake so I'll be heading to bed early again. Will be around sporadically for the next half hourish, and then dreamland.

[dyachei]

re: visor, the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT stuff is mostly social stuff that I feel kind of icky getting into, but let's do it anyway

you and I are friends, we've been friends for some time and keep in touch with each other over Discord occasionally despite my departure from MU. Life updates, wine memes, cute shots of Amy and Calvin, that sort of thing, a few times a year.

Visor and I are friends too but he and I regularly chat frequently just shooting the shit. I'm not saying I consider him to be a better friend than you (or the reverse), it's just that due to circumstances (active mutual Discord servers) he and I interact way more frequently than you and I do. Of this playerlist, the only person I chat with on a more regular basis than Visor is Zack. There's a big gap between those two and benneh, then another big gap to you, and then Logic, then everybody else.

The reason I bring all of this up is just because of how d1 went down, there's gonna be some postgame debrief between Zack and myself centered around Logic as well as other stuff. We didn't end d1 on a good note and with him dying there's no chance to rectify it ITT. I don't want to have to do that twice to the only other person ITG I talk to remotely as frequently as Zack - Visor - and get the read wrong there. So yes, I'm somewhat tiptoeing around Visor. I have the two of you on the same tier of suspicion and that is part of the reason why I'm currently leaning you over Visor, because I don't want to go there unless I'm sure to save myself some postgame regret. The tone read stuff you mentioned doesn't really come to play with the specific "benefit of the doubt" argument.

I have roughly 35 hours to make a final decision on this matter. It is not especially relevant if I'm leaning one way or the other currently. You both will post more between now and EOD and I will judge them accordingly.

---

As for your stated turnaround on Logic, I get what you're saying, but I feel like there are a number of reasons why Zack could have died last night as discussed here, and it felt like you just kind of plowed ahead with your reasoning without even acknowledging the what-I-find-to-be-very-plausible alternatives, which conveniently shoves me near the bottom of your POE. And let's be real here, if you're a wolf, you know I'm a mislunch you HAVE to have unless you've got a deep partner.

(inb4 "I could say the same about you" - yes, you could! isn't mafia fun! )

but that's not my only reasoning and I feel like I've made that clear. I can't help but think part of this is still based on the misunderstanding about what I was saying.

I don't think zack died to implicate logic at all. I think zack died because he was the most v read player in the game, and it really has nothing to do with my logic read. I am going to take into account his read though because he's a flipped villager.

More damning to me are the wagonomics and logic's lack of towny thoughts. I was willing to go to bat for your read because I actually know it tends to be good as opposed to zack saying his read is good (never seen it in action but it could be as good as your read, idk).

but that said, your alignment came into question for me today because of your treatment of syn (and yes, I treated him similarly). But it made me question my read on you and that means that I'm questioning my read on logic. He has assured me in thread that you would lie for him

23/50

[dyachei]

i feel like a lot of this game is assuming why im reading people a certain way and are ignoring the reasons that I'm stating in the thread and I'm not sure if this is a me problem (not explaining adequately) or a "you" problem because I am saying things that are just being dismissed

[Hally]

re: visor, the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT stuff is mostly social stuff that I feel kind of icky getting into, but let's do it anyway

you and I are friends, we've been friends for some time and keep in touch with each other over Discord occasionally despite my departure from MU. Life updates, wine memes, cute shots of Amy and Calvin, that sort of thing, a few times a year.

Visor and I are friends too but he and I regularly chat frequently just shooting the shit. I'm not saying I consider him to be a better friend than you (or the reverse), it's just that due to circumstances (active mutual Discord servers) he and I interact way more frequently than you and I do. Of this playerlist, the only person I chat with on a more regular basis than Visor is Zack. There's a big gap between those two and benneh, then another big gap to you, and then Logic, then everybody else.

The reason I bring all of this up is just because of how d1 went down, there's gonna be some postgame debrief between Zack and myself centered around Logic as well as other stuff. We didn't end d1 on a good note and with him dying there's no chance to rectify it ITT. I don't want to have to do that twice to the only other person ITG I talk to remotely as frequently as Zack - Visor - and get the read wrong there. So yes, I'm somewhat tiptoeing around Visor. I have the two of you on the same tier of suspicion and that is part of the reason why I'm currently leaning you over Visor, because I don't want to go there unless I'm sure to save myself some postgame regret. The tone read stuff you mentioned doesn't really come to play with the specific "benefit of the doubt" argument.

I have roughly 35 hours to make a final decision on this matter. It is not especially relevant if I'm leaning one way or the other currently. You both will post more between now and EOD and I will judge them accordingly.

uhm

is this in gh’s wolf range? because it’s kinda winning me over but not sure if i’m just a sucker

[Jan]

uhm

is this in gh’s wolf range? because it’s kinda winning me over but not sure if i’m just a sucker

I think the core of it is to some extent NAI. (you can question if he would come up with this as a wolf or say it as a wolf. but the content itself is likely just true and matters not for his alignment)
And he would be good enough to frame it as either alignment properly.

The art of wolfing is using emotions invoked by something in the thread and redirecting them to something else that is adjacent to the top and getting villa-read for it.


Unrelated:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I feel like Vanta Black is a villager, but I have ZERO evidence.

More unrelated:

I dipped out earlier because I didn't want to use up too many of my posts before the Australians (mainly gemma and visor) have a chance to actually play the game because that is where people were looking more and it felt like a pointless pile on.
Saying this because GH's thought of giving space or benefit of the doubt is not unique. His reasoning is more personal ofc but I don't think the visor stuff is slam dunk and watching visor do something today is what we need to move forward on that front.

[Logic]

I think the core of it is to some extent NAI. (you can question if he would come up with this as a wolf or say it as a wolf. but the content itself is likely just true and matters not for his alignment)
And he would be good enough to frame it as either alignment properly.

The art of wolfing is using emotions invoked by something in the thread and redirecting them to something else that is adjacent to the top and getting villa-read for it.


Unrelated:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I feel like Vanta Black is a villager, but I have ZERO evidence.

More unrelated:

I dipped out earlier because I didn't want to use up too many of my posts before the Australians (mainly gemma and visor) have a chance to actually play the game because that is where people were looking more and it felt like a pointless pile on.
Saying this because GH's thought of giving space or benefit of the doubt is not unique. His reasoning is more personal ofc but I don't think the visor stuff is slam dunk and watching visor do something today is what we need to move forward on that front.

Jan, RE: your spoiler:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(I may have picked this gif because I was inspired by one picked by GH. Accuse me of pocketing. I dare you.)

[Jan]

I think the core of it is to some extent NAI. (you can question if he would come up with this as a wolf or say it as a wolf. but the content itself is likely just true and matters not for his alignment)
And he would be good enough to frame it as either alignment properly.

The art of wolfing is using emotions invoked by something in the thread and redirecting them to something else that is adjacent to the top and getting villa-read for it.


Unrelated:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I feel like Vanta Black is a villager, but I have ZERO evidence.

More unrelated:

I dipped out earlier because I didn't want to use up too many of my posts before the Australians (mainly gemma and visor) have a chance to actually play the game because that is where people were looking more and it felt like a pointless pile on.
Saying this because GH's thought of giving space or benefit of the doubt is not unique. His reasoning is more personal ofc but I don't think the visor stuff is slam dunk and watching visor do something today is what we need to move forward on that front.

To maybe rephrase this less vague:

I think GH as wolf does not mind duping his friends and getting one over on them, but does not enjoy fighting/clashing with them.
That applies to him as villager clashing with his friends as well.

The emotional part of that post is just real and the narrative surrounding it too. I don't think it speaks to his alignment.
Wolves are less likely to use it/come up with it, but a capable wolf will.

I think he gets villagepoints for it because there was no actual agenda to the evoked emotions. (the want to buy visor a little bit of time doesn't achieve anything. it simply explains the difference between the dya/visor read which has little to no impact on the game).

[Vanta Black]

uhm

is this in gh’s wolf range? because it’s kinda winning me over but not sure if i’m just a sucker

Can you explain why it's winning you over? Maybe it shoudl be obvious but it's not, to me.

[Vanta Black]

I am not clickikng on another spoiler in this game ever!!!

[Vanta Black]

Can you explain why it's winning you over? Maybe it shoudl be obvious but it's not, to me.

Oh yeah forgot to add, from the players I know in this game, just based on that I wouldn't think anything was out of anybody's wolf range.

[Jan]

Jan, RE: your spoiler:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(I may have picked this gif because I was inspired by one picked by GH. Accuse me of pocketing. I dare you.)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Jan]

I am not clickikng on another spoiler in this game ever!!!

I have not misused spoilers at all this game!

(I plan to do it later after you start trusting me enough to open them.)

[Gemma]

I dipped out earlier because I didn't want to use up too many of my posts before the Australians (mainly gemma and visor) have a chance to actually play the game because that is where people were looking more and it felt like a pointless pile on.

impossible for me to play mafia today due to things but regardless i doubt i have anything groundbreaking to share

i have no reañ reads tbh and pretty happy to just continue to get carried, also dont think im hugely in danger of being yeeted this game despite current appearances

but fire away!

[Logic]

impossible for me to play mafia today due to things but regardless i doubt i have anything groundbreaking to share

i have no reañ reads tbh and pretty happy to just continue to get carried, also dont think im hugely in danger of being yeeted this game despite current appearances

but fire away!

Tell me more about the bolded.
I may be overthinking it, but these are both pinging me.

Like, what makes you think you eat a NK?

[Jan]

Tell me more about the bolded.
I may be overthinking it, but these are both pinging me.

Like, what makes you think you eat a NK?

You and arctic really love rolling in the mud.

It is a rather impressive feat.

And Gemma, no worries. As long as we know your are busy just means nobody is waiting for you for no reason.

[Hally]

vanta, where’s your head at? who are the wolves? who is town?


also hey gemma

(that entrance gives me kinda wolfy vibes cuz it sounds like gemma knows that they’re at the bottom of the PoE currently but the only way they could know that is if they’ve been reading the thread but just not posting for some reason or their teammates told them in wolfchat)

[Jan]

(that entrance gives me kinda wolfy vibes cuz it sounds like gemma knows that they’re at the bottom of the PoE currently but the only way they could know that is if they’ve been reading the thread but just not posting for some reason or their teammates told them in wolfchat)

why? she is quoting my post and my post mentions that people are looking at visor and gemma?!
Your thought feels like a huge reach.

[Logic]

You and arctic really love rolling in the mud.

It is a rather impressive feat.

And Gemma, no worries. As long as we know your are busy just means nobody is waiting for you for no reason.

why? she is quoting my post and my post mentions that people are looking at visor and gemma?!
Your thought feels like a huge reach.

I don't find it a reach, as it seems to be a very legitimate read on first pass.

Also, what do you mean by rolling in the mud? I have an idea of what it means in this context, but I can't think that I got that quite right.

[nebjiamn]

Tell me more about the bolded.
I may be overthinking it, but these are both pinging me.

Like, what makes you think you eat a NK?

they're softing PR in case that isn't obvious

[Logic]

they're softing PR in case that isn't obvious

Nope. I'm a numbskull and should have seen that for what it was.

[Vanta Black]

vanta, where’s your head at? who are the wolves? who is town?

...

Here is my current list, from towniest to wolfiest. There's a lot in the middle/further research needed.

Raskolnikov
Hally
Murska
Benneh
Dyachei
Ladd
Gemma
Arctic
Ender
Wisdom
Arctic
GeneralHankerchief
Visor
Logic

I just moved Arctic up a bit. Thought GH seemed wolfy earlier today, it helped a little that he came in with reads. Of course he came in with reads after being kinda prodded, but then so did I. I would have done it without the prod, mayebe he woudl have too.

Anyway, I appreciate GH's reads, but I have only rarely understood the whole "if XXX flips [town/wolf], YYY is probably [town/wolf]. I mean sometimes I understand it. But when GH says my alignment depends on what Logic flilps, well, it doesn't. I am what I am. It's not gonna magically change no matter how Logic flips.

(Also if I had a nickel for everything I didn't undertand, I would have a whole pile of nickels--still not worth much but I guess I could put 'em in a sock and use 'em as a sap)

Visor--has he even posted today? Did he indicate he was going to disappear?

Logic--I feel he was reading my posts to get rid of me, not to try to solve me. I also don't understand his push on dyachei, who I feel has looked pretty towny all in all, and I'm not just saying that because of the avatar.

Not sure why I put Benneh so high. I have a kind of weird, time-consuming system that usually I only do somewhat later in the game, and that's where he landed but...more research needed. I could say that also about Gemma, Ladd, and Jan.

[Vanta Black]

Kinda bummed that I never got to play with Jar-Jar. Missed it by that much.

[Vanta Black]

Argh, there was supposed to be a quote there, that was for Logic. See I don't mind burning a post to correct myself. That's usually about a third of my posts, me correcting myself.

[Visor]

sup

its been a long day, lol

first of all, wolves are assholes for killing zack

[Visor]

secondly i'm going to grab a pizza and something to wash down this shitty day

then i'm gonna tunnel gh

[ladd]

ngl the wolfiest thing about logic is that i don't think he had any reaction to zack flipping v when he was pretty tunneled there which.

this is a pretty good point

@Logic 1 of your wolf reads and your main pusher died n1...why 0 reaction?

and wtf is this visor read. first you say:

And leaving the best for last, we have Doctor Horrible. Being the protagonist (but definitely a bad guy) is probably a wolf-siding villager. Based on absolutely nothing, let's call this Visor. (The mirror of GH? Wait, what?)

so visor is a wolf siding villager...

Thinking I had a somewhat unique take on visor wolf, only to see it's been mentioned a bunch already in the gap I hadn't read.

Let me elaborate on dya while I'm here before someone beats me to it: specifically regarding her read on me and GH makes me think I'm seeing perspective slips, not a reevaluation.

Vote: Dya

I will vote visor as well. People that have scammed with me know that I don't bus except by accident or permission.

..then he is a wolf? and you say people were quicker to visor wolfreads while you clearly did not have one

in fact then you go on to say:

Your hedginess on visor is noted

Where I am seeing a wolf-siding villager in visor: for one, he's asking one confirmed town and one I suspect of being (mostly) town to kill murska, a LHF that now we know has claimed Doctor (not to be confused with Dr Horrible). I don't see murska as scummy, but that could be the fact that he has posted somewhere in the range of a dozen times thus far.

Second, visor doesn't seem to have an agenda. He feels too "can't be assed" to GAF, and I don't think that's his scum game.

so like wtf

[Vanta Black]

I don't know if we are ever going to agree on this, but I think I am the single most-likely mis-lim in the game. Arctic and you are not universally scumread like I currently am. So I don't get why you think scum would ever decide to try and resolve the d1 wagons before they kill either of you two.

I am hardly ever NKed, I think it's happened twice and one of those, the scum used RNG. As for Arctic, he had some votes early on, and was looking to me like either scum or mizzle-bait.

When has the biggest counterwagon ever been the NK? I'm sure it's happened, but it doesn't seem too likely. But that was yesterday.

[ladd]

i re read zack real quick and he was harder on logic/gh than i remembered (i mean i remembered him pushing them, just not so much)

dont really see him being nked unless that is at least 1 wolf in there+its zack so he was prolly at least somewhat on the right track


(fwiw he also thought dya was a wolf, those 3 + ender seemed to be his wolf reads)


gotta go afk for a while, prob gonna manage pop ins but may be back in like 27 hours if i dont manage to pop in from phone

adieu