well he thinks it's me since he doesn't think it's either of you two
which to be honest, i actually quite like cuz it means i'm forced to just kill him and don't really have to think, and he's either wolf or it was dya who he was clearing for shitty reasons and i can laugh at him being both in the poe and wrong in f4
I'm also getting more and more convinced the last wolf is not Dya.
Which is gonna make me look stupid if they're actually wolf. But I believe this so far.
for full transparency, when i was tunneling dya i confbiased that post as gemma leaking wolfchat itt because if dya is a wolf and them/syn were getting a ton of heat i imagine wolfchat was not a fun vibe D1 and dya probably would be pretty upset in wolfchat
but it feels kinda icky to speculate about and i don’t really care anymore anyway
This is why I'm explicitly asking you to re-visit your comments about Arctic's meta.
You're the one I'm most confident in being town at this horrible 3am, so I want to check Arctic's meta (which I'm not super familiar with) against your knowledge.
I know you've made a confident-ish statement about it earlier but I'm not going to sit on that exactly.
How strongly do you believe in your "Arctic never busses unless it's super necessary"?
I'm not going to defer my read to this but I found your note on it and just want to check your thoughts.
i think not likely but i have never actually seen him wolf in a normal game, i’m just going off how he wolfs in turbos plus how he has described his own wolf meta pregame which is that he avoids bussing unless he feels like it will basically be game winning, which… i guess in this game it would be
but i think he’s villagery even outside of pushing wolves and benneh, ladd and rask all thought so too so i just can’t see myself getting there if its him, sorry
right now to me you feel like you’re boxed in and don’t know how to case arctic or what to do really because you keep talking around why you think he’s a wolf
right now to me you feel like you’re boxed in and don’t know how to case arctic or what to do really because you keep talking around why you think he’s a wolf
I have a longer case but wanted to gather everything before I dumped it. I can format what I've got and show you.
i’m honestly still scared it’s dya but i guess we’re just losing in that case because my heart isn’t in it anymore and rask/benneh thought it was ender more and ender doesn’t think it’s dya so i’m not sure how we could win
Quick summary of the quotes I've gathered over the last few hours and why I was thinking it made Arctic a wolf:
1. Early start was very... iffy at best. But it was ~fine until his re-entry was centred around a shoddy push onto Rask that felt agenda'd at the best of times. (I was hardly the only person who thought this about this set of posts, so this is no surprise.)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by Arctic
you guys are really funny i'm giggling
re: zack - yeah im european
i wasn't trying to bait people with my opener i'm just cringe, but i agree that the sus on me felt kinda bad because i was being avoidably wolfy and even acknowledged that it was coming across like that so voting me feels level 0. i'm prob not gonna pursue it because there was really nothing to go off at that point so i get reaching to make an RVS vote
but i will say that i feel like the way zack handled my posts is how i'd expect a villager to do - he recognized they weren't good but he noted that he had 0% belief in sussing me for those posts and doesn't really care to push me but wolves will pretend they don't see it
i haven't really liked anything else rask has posted either since voting me - they've kept up a consistent presence but feel very "hello fellow kids-ey". as for murska, i actually got the sense they believed in their vote of me from their later justification but then i read 94 from jan and um i changed my mind because that makes a lot more sense lmao
also zack, i've seen your read on logic and uhh i guess i could see it? but i don't know if i'd say i agree - sorry this isn't helpful but you wanted people to talk with you about it lol
the only people i really sus is basically cuz of omgus, wow i'm good at mafia
Originally Posted by Arctic
also i think zack is town in case that wasn't clear already- the way he's talking about his reads and qualifying them with different levels of belief seems genuine and some other stuff i don't think wolves do like saying wisdom's behaviour needs to be noted without actually attributing a read to it. oh and also making reads about how nobody reacted to his logic case - gives me the sense he really believes in that read and kinda borders on confbias but idk not really
i think jan's observations on me are correct and are also how i'd expect an experienced villa to react to my posts at sod - i dunno if i'd say they're town yet but i'm nodding along to their thoughts on me/murska
hally too but she kinda stole these thoughts from jan so L
Originally Posted by Arctic
i think i would be sussing you even without that
could you explain where hally was pockety? she just seems to be meming as much as everyone else so i'm not sure why you have given specifically her this label
Originally Posted by Arctic
i feel like if there's anyone bussing logic it's you
where have you decisively pushed him lol? the first time you mentioned him was agreeing with zack's sus on him and then you said he had a "meh" opening
vote: Raskolnikov
i dunno man this is like strike 3 for weirdness
Originally Posted by Arctic
i mean i dunno, i feel like i could say the same about logic (which is ironically what you all jumped on ender for even though i kinda agree with his assessment)
but even if i was misinterpreting that last post i don't think being french explains the sus on hally or how it feels like they're fos'ing like the entire game
Originally Posted by Arctic
umm but seriously speaking
even if the main reason for rask's push is being underwhelming, that's not much better either? because everyone is underwhelming lol. half the list isn't even playing yet. it's a light game and everyone's kinda messing around, so i don't think it makes sense to single you out for this. i also don't know if i'd consider this wolfy for you even if you weren't the only person doing this because i'm used to you kinda doing nothing in turbos on day 1 as town and trying harder as mafia
it did feel like rask was sussing a lot of people - he said he felt meh on you and benneh and sussed me, logic, and murska - that's 5 people, and maybe they aren't fleshed out wolfreads but the implication is still kinda there. and idk i'm just kinda predisposed to wolfread this personally cuz i got off a wolfgame where i kinda did the same game, and "how easy this person is to push" wasn't something i really thought about at this early of a stage, wolves don't need to push everyone they wolfread, they just need to sow the seeds and see what sticks
i have played with logic before yes, once, and i incorrectly suspected him in that game mostly because of the way he spoke in binary/absolute terms and seeming generally awkward in the way he came across, so i haven't found the pushes on him in this game convincing even though i don't townread him either. i said that about rask cuz i thought they were acting in a way that's w/w with logic even though i don't wolfread logic - that is, trying to milk cred for pushing him when he's barely done that (but according to everyone this is just a joke so w/e), and also his last post about me is implying a townread because of a preflip of logic wolf if i understand correctly. so yeah
oh and answering 209 at the same time - wait actually i kinda already answered this, i don't really think you lacking is wolfy because of my experience with you in turbos
Originally Posted by ladd
Nah you are right
Rask is a villager and artic push on them felt super malicious
And not beacause rask is a villager, the reasoning just feels way off...rask is a wolf for fosing a lot of people? Cmn friendo thats not a real reason
Hyperfixation on Rask slot = low footprint tell for mafia. Tending to keep targets they have to talk about to a minimum. Ladd calls out the wolfiness of this.
Originally Posted by Visor
wolfy post m'lord
Visor's reaction is very much the same as when Gemma had a wolfy post but this is partially confbias.
2. For the main body of 80% of D1, their takes on Syn/Gemma were... wishy-washy while avoiding needing to do anything about them. Their posts on Visor were almost non-existent. More importantly, they never really addressed them individually, and instead posted around and paired the dismissal with something else usually.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by Arctic
I guess I agree with the take that GH would probably feel more pressured to do something here as mafia but dya's first read being this over anything else is pretty bad imo
I don't think I like anything gemma has posted either
Originally Posted by Arctic
maybe i'm jumping the gun a bit on gemma a bit cuz they haven't done much either but their posts kinda fall between doing nothing / trying to do something and failing
apparently they townread ender for the bait to GH which seemed completely NAI to me and reads more as pockety towards ender, and the general focus on GH over.. anything else just kinda seems wolfy
am i being too uncharitable here? i'm worried i'm just construing normal posting as bad cuz i wanna find something but like i don't really get what they're doing. same applies to dya. both feel like struggly wolf entrances
btw i don't really think ender is a wolf, i think he's kinda playing his all over the place towngame which gets him killed a lot (this is bladescape, right?) and him going back and forth over stuff doesn't really seem calculated to me
Originally Posted by Arctic
I don't really know what syn is doing and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do about half the game saying they sound normal and half the game saying they sound off cuz this means nothing to me
Originally Posted by Arctic
tbh ladd is probably mafia but idk if i care to prove it right now
syn is a fine shrug wagon if they aren't gonna play the game but the wagon comp on them doesn't really inspire confidence
dya's recent posts did nothing for me personally so i'm curious what the people who were insistent on letting them cook have to say about that
Originally Posted by Arctic
Anyway, I do have some townreads on benneh/hally/jan that I want stated but I don't really think it's productive to elucidate right now - except on Jan for Ender's sake which I would do had GH pretty much not already done it - I liked their post on gemma, and I think the way they handled my posting at SoD in good faith realizing it might TWTBAW is much more likely to be how a critically thinking villa handles a situation like that rather than someone out for blood
can someone explain why Rask is obv town? are they polarized to some degree, or am I missing something? None of their posting has really sold me, I can see that perhaps I was too uncharitable about their earlier posting but even when I account for this I don't find anything showing a villa perspective in their recent posts
I don't really find the arguments for Logic being a wolf convincing. The examples of zack quoted from a different game don't.. really feel that different from Logic here. I don't know what I'm really trying to achieve by saying this because I can't really in good conscience call him town even though that's the way I'm leaning from some nebulous things. and I don't know how to parse the divide in plyers familiar with him acting like he's outted vs GH shielding him, it's kinda mirroring what's going on with Syn who's posts I have even less thoughts about
Originally Posted by Arctic
I feel like the towniest thing ladd has done is giving me a D1 pass given that he was trying to murk me earlier. but who knows, maybe my reads suck and wolves think it's good to keep me around
I think I could vote gemma but I wouldn't really be surprised if it wasn't a hit. @Gemma could you explain why you townread blade from the "master bait" of GH? it felt like a completely NAI joke to me, and jan's post summarized my thoughts on your entrance seeming agenda'd pretty well, and since then I've felt like you've been pretty impactless even though I don't find your posting wolfy, if that makes sense. so I have mild concerns
I think the last thing I'll prob do today is consolidate a read on Ender cause I've felt like he's town but haven't explained it very well and I would probably vote both logic and syn over him. But my understanding is that he is being voted out for being back and forth all over the place which I'll cede isn't conducive to projecting town but I don't think it makes him a wolf either.
after reading his iso the impression i get is that he is either a wolf just blatantly trying to cycle through murdering as many spks during the day as possible and seeing what sticks, or he's just a villager manouevring through the game in a back-and-forth way without explaining a lot of his random 180s and he's getting wolfread cuz of that. i find the latter explanation more likely than the first because i don't think most people play as mafia like this. but i can't confidently call him town because that first explanation is still there (i do play as mafia like this, lol) and it's entirely possible he is just throwing shit around, mainly because i don't like any of his pushes, even though i lean against that being the case
@EnderWiggin can you explain your thoughts on gemma and dya more
3. (Confbias alert) Their post about shields on Rask felt like the post I could see wolves making when salty over accurate shields on town.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by Arctic
Can you explain why? There are a number of shields being thrown around like this that I don't know how to engage with because I don't have the same meta as all of you and it's making it hard for me to find my footing in this game. There are more than 4 players being strongly townread by at least someone so somebody is fucking up here.
4. This sequence at EOD1 felt... bad. They straight up acknowledge they don't look good. Give a half-hearted effort to read it as v/v and then only vote Syn after the wagon has become runaway to the point where no-one else is getting voted out.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by Arctic
im kinda not surprised murska is v (taking the claim at face value) judging from this wagon comp lol
thats the only wagon that feels stinky the others feel mostly equally fine to me which might indicate v/v
Originally Posted by Arctic
ok well im fine with syn dying
Originally Posted by Arctic
ignore what i just said about the wagons if syn is a wolf
(im not coming out of this looking good either way actually lmao
Originally Posted by Arctic
OK W/E, I really hope you guys are right about this
vote: Syn
5. D2 start there's a couple of odd focuses. Specifically around the whole "Wolves probably have a busser" read that they tried to discredit. This is the thing I was originally pushing them on early D2 from anyway.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by Arctic
wow! you guys sure were right about this!
i did nothing overnight ftr
Originally Posted by Arctic
wolves could have either been bussing or just had not enough thread presence or control to get logic out
and nobody actually did a good job of convincing me to vote logic either
Originally Posted by Arctic
idt the offwagon kill indicates much because there's a claimed protective who wolves didn't kill so it's likely a doc dodge
that isn't to say i necessarily think wolves didn't bus, just that the kill doesn't really indicate it imo
absolutely do not clear dya for this, in a recent wolfgame they attempted to refuge in audacity townreading a runaway wagon on a wolf partner who was p much always dying d1 (hydra g2 with benneh)
do you not think gemma is a wolf anymore? why'd you vote her at eod?
6. Before he made that post I quoted earlier where he pretty much committed to bussing all 3 partners via heavy sus on Gemma/Visor (before Gemma softed PR and Arctic began to be a hard defender.) his approach was a wishy washy "idk guis"
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by Arctic
visor's iso is pretty horrendous to the point where idk if i'd actually consider his engagement AI because i know he can do a lot better than this as either alignment
just not really anything beyond surface level thoughts, and idrk why i'm saying this because it's not like visor can't post well as mafia, i just dunno what he's doing regardless of alignment
the actual wolfiest thing imo is the way he voted vanta then took a jab at logic voting vanta with the implication that it was a pretty bad pressure vote when it seemed like that was why he voted them too?
he asked ladd/raskol for thoughts on syn and admittedly between that post and when he came back to the thread neither had posted anything about syn, but when he came back to the thread closer to eod while ladd was there he didn't push the matter any further and last thing they said about syn was this:
i dunno i feel like people are kinda overstating how bad it is even tho it's not great
i'm more interested in why he just decided that murska had to die seemingly out of nowhere
it's hard for me to tell what's AI cuz he doesn't explain a lot and was barely playing and that's why stuff seems surface level wolfy even tho that's not necessarily the explanation
If I were to argue this point, it feels like he was wishy-washy on the Gemma/Visor stuff up until a switch was flicked when he suddenly turned on the spotlight of sus. He was hardly the first onto either wagon and Ladd, Benneh, and Hally had all stated reads to sus the other two remaining wolves before Arctic did this.
7. The night kills (NKA bois). If Dya is wolf... why are Arctic and Hally still alive? There was a period when Hally/Arctic hadn't turned back on Dya, but both had pushed them heavily on D1/Early D2. Dya had become very defensive towards them both. I don't see why F4 contains the two people who were pressuring Dya D1/D2 if they're wolf? Like if I were to pick someone favoured by the night kills, it'd be much more me/Arctic over Dya.
8. EOD2. Over-drama. I haven't got to quoting this part so I'm just tacking it on the end because I know this was in my mind.
i’m honestly still scared it’s dya but i guess we’re just losing in that case because my heart isn’t in it anymore and rask/benneh thought it was ender more and ender doesn’t think it’s dya so i’m not sure how we could win
Ladd thought I was unpaired with Gemma
Jan thought I was town hard
Ngl if you read all of my thoughts and tell me I'm being stupid on Arctic I'll move on and vote Dya. Gut is screaming it's Arctic but I know I'm town and if you believe it's Dya I'll take that over being the losing yeet.
And yes I'm fully aware this sounds wolfy, deal with it.
I do notice light dustings of sus/dismissal of allies like I'm pointing out from D1, but I do acknowledge that there's no hard bussing like Arctic would've had to do this game if he's wolf.
Also as an addendum:
Arctic's whole "I'm gonna force you to case Dya" rubs me absolutely the wrong way. I wanted to add it to the case but idk how self-centred that is.
(37 - Now I *do* have to be careful with remaining posts.)
ender how do the kills point to arctic? did any of the kills wolf read him? iirc benneh even said if he died the read he wanted sheeped most was arctic v lol
Ladd thought I was unpaired with Gemma
Jan thought I was town hard
Ngl if you read all of my thoughts and tell me I'm being stupid on Arctic I'll move on and vote Dya. Gut is screaming it's Arctic but I know I'm town and if you believe it's Dya I'll take that over being the losing yeet.
And yes I'm fully aware this sounds wolfy, deal with it.
i know ladd thought that and i did too but i’m more heavily weighing benneh saying we shouldn’t be clearing you for that and rask strongly thinking it was you
also idk why you keep citing jan’s town read because he was very likely rolecop’d and killed because of that because there’s like no other way wolves kill jan N2 in that gamestate with their strongman and i feel like you’re kinda being obtuse about that
ender how do the kills point to arctic? did any of the kills wolf read him? iirc benneh even said if he died the read he wanted sheeped most was arctic v lol
No one has been calling him wolf. There's no one to kill on that front.
But you/Dya live for the dichotomy of how you two have been interacting.
You specifically have been one of his best buddies in terms of you two townreading each other from much earlier in the game. More-so than Benneh even.
The POE not dying is obvious. But the Rask kill/Benneh kill are removing people that have reason to reconsider in the final stages, keeping his closest townread around and holding the advantageous conflicts. Rask kill has the added bonus of looking like a kill I would absolutely make.
But I know the same argument can be applied to me.
It's mostly an argument of "The kills are less likely to be Dya rather than more likely to be Arctic."
And yes if Dya is the wolf I'm just making myself look dumber in post but nyeh.
even if i thought it was him i don’t think i could go against the dead villas and kill him, would never get over it if it’s wrong and i went against my town read of him since D2 to lose the game
and i honestly just don’t find your case convincing sorry
i know ladd thought that and i did too but i’m more heavily weighing benneh saying we shouldn’t be clearing you for that and rask strongly thinking it was you
also idk why you keep citing jan’s town read because he was very likely rolecop’d and killed because of that because there’s like no other way wolves kill jan N2 in that gamestate with their strongman and i feel like you’re kinda being obtuse about that
he wasn’t killed for his reads
No, but Jan has one of the ~more accurate reads on me of people I've played with. Which isn't something you can trust but it matters to me so nyeh.
Also I have already agreed with the Jan N2. Yesterday I realised I was being dumb about it. This is more about the fact that Jan has a read you can sheep on it. You're citing Benneh/Rask as reasons to sus me, I cited two people who had townreads or reasons to clear me back at you.
I'm basically saying "Make up your own damn mind because I can also bring up dead people that support my side."
even if i thought it was him i don’t think i could go against the dead villas and kill him, would never get over it if it’s wrong and i went against my town read of him since D2 to lose the game
and i honestly just don’t find your case convincing sorry
Meh.
I hope you're right on Dya then.
I leave it to you to decide if you trust me. I'm here to answer your questions.
No one has been calling him wolf. There's no one to kill on that front.
But you/Dya live for the dichotomy of how you two have been interacting.
You specifically have been one of his best buddies in terms of you two townreading each other from much earlier in the game. More-so than Benneh even.
The POE not dying is obvious. But the Rask kill/Benneh kill are removing people that have reason to reconsider in the final stages, keeping his closest townread around and holding the advantageous conflicts. Rask kill has the added bonus of looking like a kill I would absolutely make.
But I know the same argument can be applied to me.
It's mostly an argument of "The kills are less likely to be Dya rather than more likely to be Arctic."
And yes if Dya is the wolf I'm just making myself look dumber in post but nyeh.
i don’t really think i would die before benneh and rask regardless of the who the wolf is because benneh/rask/arctic were all more cleared than me before today
i guess dya could kill me but tbh i don’t even know if they would because i don’t think i die unless they are exactly the wolf and then people would be more likely to sheep me and kill them so i feel like they actually have a better chance to leave me alive and hope people don’t listen or i reevaluate
re: ender's case on me - for the point about dya, i'm not sure they could kill anyone except who's currently died just based on who's clear, i think the only person who could have died instead of rask/benneh was me - people weren't really clearing hally imo, and at that point if a non-clear player dies it's kinda gonna point to their reads being correct which would have got everyone pushing dya. so, they couldn't really get away with killing hally. but yeah there are some points in their favor with some NK stuff, which is also why i think it's you. i mean rask died tunneling you, my last post at eod was "tbh it's probably not ender cuz of the spew" and look who died lol
benneh was also the person most open to dya being town, iirc benneh's preferred order of kills was wisdom/vanta/you and he died before me and rask so i have to wonder why that happened lol
Also as an addendum:
Arctic's whole "I'm gonna force you to case Dya" rubs me absolutely the wrong way. I wanted to add it to the case but idk how self-centred that is.
(37 - Now I *do* have to be careful with remaining posts.)
i mean, i had read the game and knew it wasn't hally, you then proceeded to also read the game and realized it wasn't hally too, you gotta understand that it's between two people for me and i can't do much with you casing me can i lol
i do still think it could be dya but i just think you've been wolfier the past two days and every dead villager has been saying it's you
i think it would be pretty valuable for ender/dya to have confirmation that it's the other but i dunno how much effort dya would put in to make a case at this point regardless of their alignment
Re: 17er Saints and Martyrs
Originally Posted by EnderWiggin
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