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So this is the only real mention of each other D1, and then early D2:

Lumps Wisdom in there at the end.

Then not much until:
Just throwing a w/w read out there.

Then Grr asks:
And I just have to insert:
(Sorry Sunbae but this is amusing in context of what I'm arguing in this post.)

At this point a wagon is floating on Maple. Wisdom ignores it. Instead votes Gemma and pushes hard for Gemma being sus.

Then Benneh dismisses the sus on the "cred grabby" vote by Maple:
The wagon on Maple starts growing after Jan's PR claim, Benneh's reaction:
Maple then makes a comment about FF/Arso "if they're real", never really addresses a read on Wisdom.

Finally mentions a read on Wisdom:
Throwaway townread. Still no further read on Maple from Wisdom despite calling them wolfy a few times.

More of Benneh being unsubstantially interested in pushing Maple but sussing them. Benneh DOES then jump on Maple when Maple claims self-resolvable.

I'm not sure how to parse that just yet.

Wisdom, who had stated an earlier sus on Maple, states this again when the wagon runs away on D2. This is before Rask saves the day for Maple.

Very cautiously said for someone who has tentatively sussed Maple literally every mention so far.

Rask then blows up with Dya and Benneh follows on, but this isn't really indicative of anything I think.

This does give me a little pause, but Benneh was also after Wisdom at this point. I think he intended to bus them at best if they are wolves.

We are now D3 though, and Wisdom and Maple still haven't really done much about each other except a static one-line repeat basically.

And I still think this is fucking wolfy on reread.

And then Wisdom's first mention on D3 is above.

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Summary

Basically Wisdom and Maple have like sideways mentioned or sussed each other, but when wagons or pushes went to either, neither did much about it. (Note: Maple has only mentioned Wisdom in a towny light up to half-way through D3?)

About my only unsurety is Benneh did push super hard for Maple EOD2 and D3 early. I'm tossing up the chances that Maple started D3 lolcatting but then realised there was a chance to actually come out alive and Benneh's was a planned bus.

As it stands, though, Vanta/Grr cannot be BOTH teammates to a wolf!Maple.

So the question is:

Would w!Maple give cards to Non-Wolves to grab cred more?

I'm not entirely as sold as I thought I'd be with this.

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This sequence is hilarious if w/w.

But ngl that grr/Maple back and forth kinda feels unpairing.

Yes I got distracted shush.

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Also Benneh + Maple were the two most-notable "Why has Syn put these so high" people that were pointed out.

Maple ignores the Syn wagon almost entirely. Votes at the end but basically hasn't mentioned it before that.

If Wisdom/Benneh were wolf with Syn/Maple then Maple was about the only one really active at EOD. Which vibes with Benneh trying to dismiss the sus on the cred-grabby vote.

Benneh also did a 180 on Maple after the self-resolving comment, as if that was a flag in front of a bull.

(And yes Maple has the most cred-grabby vote of D1.)

Anyway I'm rambly at this point and I'm very much living in the Maple/Wisdom world rn.

Will try to think of other worlds tomorrow in case I'm levelling myself, but need sleep.

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You sure you're not trying to pocket? Not that I want you to SR me, but last EOD I did request a card, while giving fair warning that I might use a vig for a hero shot rather than a difference check.

To elaborate, I was mostly expecting Wisdom to go over that phase. So if t-Wisdom, I probably shoot knights, but if m-Wisdom, I probably shoot Sunbae.

If that sounds suboptimal, well, it seems to be the same calculation you applied more or less, and I think I've only ever been vig ~twice if you count SK. One of those times I wasted a slot-limited vig that was limited to the exact guy I pushed D1 and was planning to push D2, because I thought I could kill two birds with one stone (but didn't).

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Fypov if I am a wolf, grr should more or less literally always be a wolf, given I gave them a gun. An absolutely nuts thing to do in w/v worlds, especially given how tight the game is. Not to mention, the shot on sunbae floats between the "batshit" and "goldilocks" zones for a wolf vigi. So in that hypothetical ghe team would be wisdom maple grr or maple grr mont

I'm also annoyed, I *really* should have gotten dya to confirm my eod meta before they died because it I'd ostensibly a bad look if you don't view it through the lens of eod mechanics.

To repeat what I said prior:

You go into the eod. The wagons are 1 person you're v reading and a few wagons you don't really care about. The other two major wagons, rask + syn, each have pretty nice looking wagons. In order to promote a more active EoD, vote the cw to bring the wagons closer together and increase the probability of movement. When the day ends you either chill *or* you swap over to the major wagon to lock it in and remove the possibility of a chaotic cfd.

The vote positions of specifically newcomb and bop pretty significantly contributed to me more or less shrugging and calling it a coinflip.

I think an important note is that once mewcomb selects a slot for death that early into the game, it's more or less always going to die. Either newcomb dies in the night and the legacy is followed, or newcomb lives and just kills them the next day. I think my actions that eod are going to do very little in the gran scheme of things when viewed through that lens.



*anyway*

I see where insom is coming from with thinking we're in a world of 2. The world building is *incredibly* tight right now. I'm between splitting the difference or looking at the compromise at the moment. The lack of info is mildly rough and frankly idk if anyone alive can reasonably post themselves clear to me at this point (based on raw words today alone, I just don't see it). So I'm currently hedging a bit.

I'm continuing my rereading at a pace far worse than I'd like.

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Okay only this moment do I get what you mean by 69 with ender

Yes, that perhaps would have been decent, but us stacking isn't literally the worst I suppose.

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What I think is, with both of you being PRs and ruling out the m-m world out of policy, one of you just about has to die tonight, right? If Maple is scum, you will certainly die, though it doesn't prove anything about Maple in itself if you die.

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Story so far:

So Maple and Ender both gave Vanta cards last night, and Vanta can't say exactly what they were. Huh.

And Maple gave grr a card the night before - a vig - but grr didn't use it or report it until last night.

I can swallow a lot, but what the hell is going on here.
@Maple , why gift Vanta and not me if both of us have been in your POE since D3/4? Why not gift Sunbae N3/4, since you had a solid town read on him?
@EnderWiggin , why gift Vanta anything after posting the following last EOD?

You gave the most LHF/UTR player left, who was also in your POE, a card.

Youtube Video
@grr , I can in theory understand targeting Sunbae. You POEd him, and he's a more difficult ouster than Wisdom. It was a bad choice with Wisdom still in play, but it's conceivable. But then, why not use your shot N4?

[I read your "the card was backup" post but my brain can't conceive of what that means mechanically. Like, it wasn't a vig but a chance to absorb a dead player's power, and you absorbed Arctic's, who had an unused vig? Could you paraphrase the instructions?]

Everyone's claims today are sending me. What are the odds of Vanta getting stacked gifts and grr holstering a vig. I want us to either have a perfect game from now on (or we lose), or just lose outright this round.

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Arctic shot stett, right?

Like, that's the only thing that makes sense.

Thought stett defending rask om a 3p flip was tmi.

Idk does that like matter?

Killed bop for having the best solve and as the player most likely to catch Ben the next day, something like that.

Ben was meant to go deep, then?

The kill on ladd was so opportunistic but I can see it as ~safe enough I suppose, if you're making the snap choice and plan on shoving the blame onto dya

There's definitely something here idk

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grr, Insomnia, my feeling on Insomnia is that unless it's some kind of sheer power scum team like Maple-Ender-Insom, he has of the living players the best voting record, good engagement with the thread, good tone, and no bad associatives with neb that I can remember. Wisdom preflip ordains well for him.

My feeling on Maple/Ender is that if Wisdom is town, Ender was the deepscum. We have pretty much 100% confirmation that Maple is indeed an inventor, whether or not he's anything else, and pretty good confidence that Ender did copy his power to become an inventor himself (originally being an upgrader). If they're both scum, this is true fancy play, having very odd Mafia PRs in an inventer and an upgrader (VERY odd role spread for mafs) both hardclaim on D2 and coopt the town leaders and just never die. Legendary audacity if they're both scum, and legendary play even if Maple alone is scum. ggwp Mafia victory. So I think Ender alone being scum is the most plausible, after both just being town. Ender is mostly cleared by Wisdom flipping red, so with that preflip in mind I can't waste time suspecting him.

Even if the recent claims are skibidi toilet gibberish.

So as I said, all that strictly limits my POE, notwithstanding that I have reasons not to POE anyone other than Wisdom. If Wisdom is a hit, I may just lock Ender and Insom through F3, and if not, it doesn't matter.

As to the game structure, 17-1-4 seems unusually anti-Mafia for a modern setup. I don't recall that Visor gives LYLO alerts as a rule, so it's best to assume 5 maf, lost or not. If one's lost, I might be fated to endgame with t-Ender and get MLed.

I can't keep all the antipair worlds being presented straight. But for now I guess I can jive with the following (antipairs) in descending order:

Wisdom-Insomnia
Wisdom-Ender
Ender-Maple
Wisdom-Vanta
Insomnia-grr


Of course, that would leave exclusively grr-Maple, which sounds absurd enough that I'd want to throw the game. Maple-Ender and Maple-grr are so bogus to me that if Maple is scum I choose to lose.

I find Ender-Vanta-Wisdom hard to integrate with how both slots have related to Wisdom. Is there anything linking Vanta and Ender together besides last night's gift?

Once more returning to Wisdom-Vanta-grr, which

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What is this in reference to, my post above?

Maple's history is:

Self
Arctic
Jan
grr
Vanta

I guess a Maple-grr team could just be working a narrative. Y'know, Maple gifted something to a partner, it was no good or grr quietly used it N4, N5 was just killing townies, they need a story for what happened with the gift, so they make up some convoluted excuse.

In that case Arctic gift would be a lie and the only confirmed instance of Maple gifting a townie would be Jan, which while still a very intense gesture, could be part of Maple gambiting to buy time.

Alternatively, maybe the scum PR gains unlocks from using its power, but then the same could apply to you.

But then again again, Sunbae's last leans were:

So why the hell wouldn't Mafia kill an actual PR? Which is a then again again again. Sunbae wasn't so strong that SPK could justify skipping one of Maple-Ender, and I've lost track of what conclusion any of that could lead to.

Maybe that Sunbae is plausibly not a Mafia kill, because there's no advantage to killing someone just for POEing Wisdom-Vanta, which most of the list was doing at the time.

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I mean in the exact case that it's Wisdom-Vanta, at that. If they're not the team, or just Wisdom, there's nothing gained at all.

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My claim is pretty straight forward, even when arctics role is a bit weird.

I don't have time right now to check what Vanta said about what he received, but I knew exactly what my card was when i received it.

I was able to copy the ability of a dead player due to the card Maple gave to me.

The dead player I targetted in the night i received the card was Arctic. His ability is tracker, and if two town players get eliminated back to back, he would lose that ability and become a 1-shot vigilante. That has not occured yet when he died, but when I copied it, it did. So I ended up getting a vigshot, yes.

Don't know what you are talking about holstering, I didn't holster anything. (I never holstered anything in my life btw. I am a notorious buttonclicker lol, ok i didnt click a button here, but you know what i mean).

@EnderWiggins you asked what i thought d1 about benneh and sunbae. Well I thought benneh would have had a more joyful entry if he was wolfing with his friends d1, that was it basically.

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So to make this simple. n4 i used the card. n5 i used the new ability i gained from using the card before. there was no holstering. It just took 2 phases.

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there is no way arctic made any of those shots out of his volition

at best you can argue he was redirected imo, but someone made a post at some point saying arctic was essentially a tracker with a weird kp that wasn't activated at the time of his death, and that I tend to believe since i'm 99% sure he's done none of those kills (i'd say 100% but that would be mech i guess. which i don't have)

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i will be teaching the art of useless / unfortunate posting after this game

hit me up if in need of guidance


anyway, im kinda stuck. mont is making some decent points

i think i explained where my head was at in the posting i've done earlier pretty clearly. the most now would be to re-eval, but as im a selfish lazy washed up player uhhhhhhh

idk i don't see this phase as anything else than just lunching wisdom. Then again that ladd flashwagon happened so i guess being more informed in case we wanna swap should be good. but would i do it even it i know it's good? hmmmm

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You kept swapping votes between her and knights tho /shrug

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@EnderWiggin

Lets go over this. Do you have any info or indication of what your role actually *did*?

N1, you targeted stett, attempting to enhance her action. Why target stett?

N2, you holstered?

N3, you holstered? Your role changed from "Enhancer" to "Copier" overnight, as you'd be informed at SoD4.

N4, you targeted me to copy?

D5, you targeted Venta with a card, which presumably gave a protective effect. Which one?

N5, you holstered?

And today is D6.

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Okay, so can you *very specifically* claim every aspect of your role? All restrictions, stipulations, etc. And a quick thought process on why you did what you did.

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And just so I don't get no u'd

D1 - self, pgo - was looking for KP
N1 - inverted, role changed from "blind joat" into "inventor"
D2 - Arctic, unknown - was looking for a hide/commute/etc in order to get arctic alive through the night and be able to back up my claim
D3 - Jan, medic - was looking for a protection/vest/etc in order to hopefully get Jan to live the night
D4 - grr, role backup (vigi) - was looking for something like a hood, or an investigate, or something to get more info
D5 - venta, ability modifier - was looking specifically for a cop action.
D6 - Today

My restriction, in essence, is that i can choose a card but do not know what it does.

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@Vanta Black

What were the 2 cards you received, and what specifically did each of them do?

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@Wisdom

just want to confirm that you are NOT inverted?

Does anyone else wanna claim inverted?

me n1, jan n2, ender n3

We don't seem to have a n4 or n5 inversion. There's an ISO i need to check for info wrt this and will report back later. (busy atm)

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I think we can very safely believe in three worlds:

The inverter was V
The inverter was disloyal
The inverter did not exist as a player, and is purely mechanical
(the more sinister fourth option is that it's a wolf, and the wolves used it *very* weird)

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I get it now. The claim is specific enough that, as with Maple and Ender, you would need a lot of creativity and guts to fake it. You+Maple if coordinating these claims deserve to win I guess. But then it would have to be Wisdom-Vanta at a minimum, outing themselves EOD3 alongside neb for no rational reason.

Shocking number of killing roles in this game tbh, unless there were full docs that just died early (e.g. Newcomb). Also, is this the first role that we know of that transforms conditionally on its own? Because that's similar Maple's suggestion with the inverter, that there is none and inversion was happening on a mechanical schedule rather than to PR action.

But Maple. I still don't understand - why Vanta at all? Why gift someone in your POE?

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I had him much higher before reevaluating after EoD yesterday.

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I'm not inverted o7

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I don't know how you were diverted
You were perverted, too
I don't know how you were inverted
No one alerted you

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Here's how I got confused.

Your current read, I guess.

The last time you mentioned vanta was D4, and you had him POE congruent to me.

So to be clear, you moved him up (but not me) over D5, and as of SOD6 you had him high, but now want to move him back down???

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I do not know what to think about the lack of activity in the last 24 hours lmao.

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Re: Giving Grr a gun

I know how the power works. You giving em a gun is about as much guesswork as it is intent.

And I don't think you can be in a wolf team with Grr/Vanta as your 2 wolf buddies.

So if you are wolf you have intentionally given town a card. Which... honestly given your early claim is basically necessary. Giving partners cards too much would be over-reaching.

I also don't think you knew that you'd given Grr a gun. Because your daystart implies you thought it was me/Vanta who might have shot.

Which honestly means I really don't think Grr would be a partner of yours?

Every time I think on this further I'm unpairing you and Grr more lmao.

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Maple scum killing me would be sweet release tbh.

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I read up on minor arcana meanings and gave Vanta one which meant "Replenishment and renewal of peace." Which didn't feel like it was gonna ever kill.

And the intent? Well I was torn between townreading Vanta from earlier and POEing them so I figured if I gave em a card and see how they reacted it might tell me something about their alignment.

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Ty. I just was reading over it and found it a weirdly specific post. The kind I occasionally see from wolves about partners because they feel the need to talk about em.

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Talking about before EOD.

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I don't have any particular info on what my original role ever did. Visor gave some generic examples where I might make an insane cop sane, for ex, but didn't give me specifics when I theorised about roles in the game.

N1 - I targetted Stett because between her and Sheep they were my biggest townreads. I ended up picking Stett because idk vibes. But I wanted to use it on a hard townread 100%

N2 - I couldn't use my ability.

N3 - I honestly just forgot. I was half mad and half tired. Shrug.

N4 - Targetted you to Copy

D5 - Gave Vanta a card. Trying for something protective with the choice of arcana.

N5 - Couldn't target.

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My original ability only had 2 shots, and I couldn't use them on consecutive nights or on the same person twice.

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