Tarot Mafia

[insomnia]

i also don't really like them claiming a semi-PR or whatever role they have

feels like they'd be more involved by some point

looks like the easiest path for today is to read ender's posts and decide whether im sticking to the read i had all game and then the game should poe itself out

Honestly, maple / vanta kinda works. With wisdom dying, their eod play felt like starting to distance. i remember thinking manti's prod on vanta was somehow off, but im gonna have to re-read to remember why

[grr]

still here but gunna sleep now i have reread d1 no conclusion yet soz, i saw the rude interaction yeah looks ~decent ig? (spew stuff kinda makes me angry but i can see it)

[insomnia]

are lost wolves actually put in normals? why are we even discussing that option?

i'd probably lol at visor for a week. imagine putting a lost wolf in a flipless game

[grr]

I guess vanta really needs to step up today if they plan on living

Feels like the entire game they just pop in at eods to do random drive by votes and that cred ran up, the posting yesterday was kinda shallow for how deep we're in the game

Did she ever explain why she ended up on ladd?

yea she was talking about how much/didnt much she liked the people on the wagons

[EnderWiggin]

grr?

not vanta's?????

If Vanta is wolf I am not worried about them surviving F3/F5.

If I'm right on Maple then... probably you aren't a partner? I would expect 1 of the gift recipients to be a partner at this point.

Therefore eliminating Grr being wolf or confirming Grr being wolf is just ~better imo.

[EnderWiggin]

Was unfortunately busy with other things, but have time now (expect nothing, i already skimmed enough and read enough of this game that i dont think i will find anything, but as i said i was happy to be able to join it so i will read and give it some potato takes dvc will probably hate me for lol)

Good to see everyone else is clueless too (ender will complain about this, yeah i am seeing you gave a take and a vote, appreciated lol)

Well now you've pre-empted my complaints.

[EnderWiggin]

do i just buy the fabled "vanta spew" and call it a day in that case insomnia should maybe also get pluspoints for protecting him (?) (ive read what wisdom wrote but ngl it creeps me out to no end when people go over a flipped wolf iso and are like oh coolio unpartnered they pushed them! maybe im just the most paranoid mofo on the planet tbh.)

It depends on the push.

But also I cleared Wisdom off Benneh spew until Knights started posting really well that EOD so I cannot talk lmao.

[EnderWiggin]

Also idk that Vanta's spew was anywhere near as solid as the spew I was poking at.

I don't remember anything super good for Vanta anyway.

[EnderWiggin]

vanta / ender for some reason doesn't sound right to me, but that'd be just cuz it'd be... too lame after the game felt pretty tough

i don't get why ender copied your role rather than vanta's though, that's like a big minus. do you remember if he sus'd you or anything? he also gave a card to vanta, i guess

the most feasible world is maple + 1 in vanta / ender, but that world would probably tilt me

I feel like my entire theories have not been read at all by you which just makes me sad.

To be clear:
SOD yesterday I had Maple/Grr as the theory (There's a really dumb reason I started this theory which is Benneh being like "Imagine" when someone paired Grr/Maple and then I realised they just don't have great interactions.)

I think the gift on Vanta + Grr's explanation of the Sunbae shot was ~good which wavered me but see previous post for my reasonings for last night.

[EnderWiggin]

i personally also wouldn't give a card to my team mate there, i think it would pair us a bit too much and for little reason since they both had cred off "bussing" wisdom

but these are "wifom" (not really?) things that will only weigh a bit in my decision

mont was very sold on ender being spewed by wisdom, as well as myself. the easy decision would be to vote vanta in this instance, but some ender posts don't really sit right with me when it comes to wisdom

probably im being paranoid cuz he had a little interaction that had a little venom to it, and most of the time those are v/w, but his reasoning for sussing wisdom felt like a weak bus. i guess a good sign is that he hedged between the wagons at EoD, to me it felt like the wolves would either commit to the bus (cuz wisdom already survived more than enough and would most certainly die at some point) or stick on knights

swapping votes between them when wolves should have a vision already and stick to a path looks good to me

I hate defending myself but I feel like the whole "Benneh cheerleadering other people talking about me and bringing me up again when Maple/Wisdom were being pressured D2 because 'no one was talking about me'" is just clearing for me lmao.

Also like Wisdom tried really hard to catch me in a weird gotcha on... D4? I think?

[EnderWiggin]

Nm you guys are already talking about it with the "rude!" post lmao.

[Vanta Black]

I guess vanta really needs to step up today if they plan on living

Feels like the entire game they just pop in at eods to do random drive by votes and that cred ran up, the posting yesterday was kinda shallow for how deep we're in the game

Did she ever explain why she ended up on ladd?

I did explain. I was kind of waffling on ladd, then Knights jumped on, and I had Knights as wolfy, so that looked bad. But also I had been out on a vanity vote D1 and I think I missed the vote D2 entirely, so I wanted to at least try to contribute something to a top wagon.

[EnderWiggin]

@Vanta Black

If you're still around. Can you give me your thoughts on my Wisdom + Maple pairing I posted yesterday?

Or alternatively, your own thoughts on Wisdom spew?

[Vanta Black]

Okay so this is me stepping up, because I don't want town to lose the game on my account. It's probably very lame. I have been thinking about the game while doing other things (cleaning house, this is spring cleaning because I am in fact a terrible procrastinator). Here's my impression right now.

I think grr is more likely town than not. That whole thing about vigging Sunbae, and then confessing to it, was so wild that I can't see it being anything but town. I have not played with grr before, others here have, so if this is how he rolls as scum, it would surprise me, but I would listen. But from what I see everybody kind of agrees with my take.

Indecisive about Ender and insomnia. Earlier in the game I was just not picking up whatever either of them were laying down. It all sounded very reasonable, but a lot of it made no sense to me. Reading it, it sounded good, but as soon as I wasn't reading it turned out to be things that I failed to absorb. Which is in no way the fault of either player. It's just kind of high-concept mafia analysis.

Now I have played a couple of games with Ender. Last game I thought he was wolfy and he was town. But I also caught his Champs game a couple of years ago--note that I don't really follow games I'm not playing in all that well, as you can probably see by how well I'm following the game I'm actually playing in, but it seems like in that Champs game he came under a lot of suspicion early in the game, and then turned it around and won, as wolf. So I'm a little afraid of Ender. I would not rule Ender out, but also I kinda don't want to vote him and be wrong again.

Maple is where my vote wants to go. Maple has been tap-dancing around this claim and that claim. Now for sure Maple can hand out cards. I don't think this makes him town. And I don't think he's gone about it in a towny way. Handing out cards, pretending he knows what the cards do and asking about them as gotchas, and then actually not really knowing what they do. Evidence: I said several times that the card I got was a modifier, not an ability per se. Maple kept asking me if it was this or that. Well, already answered. Also when I got the cards I just got what they were, not who gave them to me.

[Vanta Black]

@Vanta Black

If you're still around. Can you give me your thoughts on my Wisdom + Maple pairing I posted yesterday?

Or alternatively, your own thoughts on Wisdom spew?

Were your thoughts about how Wisdom kept putting Maple in groups of three, of which the others have unfailing flipped town? Because I had some thoughts about that.

Okay. I'm going back to reread your take now.

[Vanta Black]

Were your thoughts about how Wisdom kept putting Maple in groups of three, of which the others have unfailing flipped town? Because I had some thoughts about that.

Okay. I'm going back to reread your take now.

I meant to say, naming three suspects, one of which was Maple, and the others who have all flipped town. This is probably too 0-level to even think about.

[Maple]

busy day, will no life this shit tomorrow

[Vanta Black]

so i gave mont the same item that vanta received the other night, hoping he'd live and be able to verify it

and if it *was* a doc, be able to use it as a save

But I said very clearly that it was a modifier. Unless he had another action, it was useless.

[Maple]

The *other* item, vanta.

[grr]

status update:

read #1-#1882 again. um. so honestly. i dont get why people sussed enders posting not even later on but from the get go? i dont even mean relations to flipped wolves etc. blabla, wisdoms reads on him obviously squintworthy etc.

but. yeah i just dont get it? like i read his iso and every post he makes i think "yeah i could see myself writing this myself". ladd kinda said at a point he liked the flow of it or something and thats probably what im feeling too. at some point at d2 he was top wagon and his reaction seemed incredibly smooth to me. i don't think he is overly accusatory, i dont think he's working off tmi. it just feels fine to me?

just what my gut is feeling. I think there are a lot of gamestate reasons for me to think he could be a wolf too (d1 wagons, wisdoms read on him etc blabla) but whatever i can think that about anyone.

i too am a PR

my target last night was

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

ur mom

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

motion was detected

this was a reaction to ender i think. whoops. someone pointed out earlier benneh got upset at villas claiming PRs and i mixed up who it was a reaction to some days earlier.

[grr]

minor intersection:

@grr

I think you misunderstood both what I asked for and what I found wolfy. But I read this anyway and a bit more of your ISO and I think you're probably town anyway.

You're being weird tho. We haven't played a normal game in like 3 years, and I couldn’t read you back then, I don't remember your meta at all. You also sussed me for calling you town when you were solvy d1 and now you're sussing me for calling you wolf when you were fencesitting d2, lol. I don't think either of that is AI though, that's probably how you are.

And a hot take but I don't think self meta is wolf indicative amongst familiar players. I usually tell the truth about my perception of my meta when I'm wolfing and when I'm towning and so does most others. It's easy to look up or get outted so people rarely lie about it.

You're forgetting that I'm doing what I can with limited information. I haven't read half d2 and when I don't have enough information on someone I sheep the consensus (ie Knights/Insomnia) but when I find wolfy stuff I'm gonna point it out.

Last game I had here I was pushed all game because my reads weren't consensus. I was wrong on Syn being wolf and he got yeeted d1. I had Logic town d1-d3 and then he got misyeeted. I had Benneh/Hally in my PoE almost all game despite both being consensus town read and after I got misyeeted Hally continued to solo win.

I have good intuition and I know to trust myself and that sometimes it's better to listen to others and sometimes I should listen to my gut and my reasons.

Like, the knights posts I've seen all have looked towny but not unfakeable. Same with Sunbae. And since they aren't focused in thread, I don't prioritze trying to find micro stuff on them because that's going to be easier with more flips anyway.

Btw @grr reason I claimed pr d2 last game was because that's how I play as town unless it's a super important role. I think d2 claims are op because it makes life so much harder for wolves. Even d1 bucket steat is op but that's just really boring. Much better to use it to steer town into a better path when people are waisting too much time trying to solve me!

+ Claims are pretty much obligatory in roleflipless. In my homecom (full flipless) I always claim doc in f3 and win because people suck at claiming before dying.

while I am reading through I just wanna point this out for people who had a hard time meta clearing me:

Wisdom has put a lot of energy to appease me on their sus on me. It's pretty much a similar way they treated stetter. I personally dont like being read of what dead wolves said to me because I think my posts stand for themselves much better than anything but anyway.

wow i'm at #2529 i'll have finished the entire game by EoD go me.

[EnderWiggin]

It occurred to me while I was out today that no powers can = mafia goon.

I am considering Grr clear for today but if I die tonight I didn't want that to be left floating.

[EnderWiggin]

So...

I was pretty happy with the idea of a Vanta/Maple team (Or just one of them if the mafia only had 4, but I'd prefer to think 5 and then come through it again tomorrow.)

But... Does Vanta really just like jonesy my wolfread on Maple if they're partners? If I get Maple voted out then Vanta doesn't have a strong F3 chance no matter who she takes through if she's the final wolf.

Have I been kept alive as an attack dog on Maple when we're v/v?

Bluh. The handwaveyness on Insom/Me talking "High Mafia Theory" makes me frown ngl.

[EnderWiggin]

I mean obviously this could just be wifom to get me to ask that exact thing.

And this could just be Vanta v agreeing with me. But in that case it's... Maple/Insom? Why so many town gifts?

I guess last night's "Gift on Monty" could have been to x partner and Monty died to cover it.

[Visor]

Players Votes

Maple 1 (EnderWiggin)

[EnderWiggin]

So, reasons Wisdom I thought was paired with Maple:

Both spend all D1 and most of D2 not really acknowledging each other's presence, beyond one throwaway line from each.

Wisdom mentions sussing Maple every time but then acts like it's a new sus multiple times despite never reversing or never changing it.

But then you do have later posts like:

I read a bit of Maple posting, he's probably just a wolf tbh

Which is very overt bussing. But I think it still can fit because like, as Dolby said:

Wisdom is likely just a wolf with Maple Ender

Wisdom if you were scumreading Maple, why not mention it until I asked you directly? Given the position of Maple since mid-D2 that should be a slot of great interest

I think it's very possible that the inverter is town, didn't understand that inverters wasn't a strict debuff, and targetted Maple N1 thinking it was a debuff

Then probably targetted Jan N2 after Maple claimed they were self-resolvable from it bc Jan doesn't look the best but looks like the best or second best of the PR claims depending on your personal take

It was like a tacked on read from Wisdom. Only really pursued when others were very strongly leaning there.

For Grr, there's a lot of Grr pushing and poking things and Wisdom trying to explain it. I'm not grabbing quotes but even the ISO has enough of em.

Insom has a few interactions, but nothing clearing.

I think the most damning thing I could say for spew is like:

Sorry about today's overall absence. Getting back from vacation both nuked more focus and stole more time than I expected.

Getting misyeeted here is the norm but I've been even more disconnected than usually this game, that's on me. I do think both Maple and Gemma are wolves but maybe I've been too stubborn on Gemma since I know her flipping wolf is the easiest way to town clear me.

Here’s my legacy, in case I die.

Town (0 wolves)
Dya

Town lean (0-1 wolves)
Jan
Dolby
Grr
Insomnia

No idea (0-2 wolves)
Benneh
Ender
Sunbae
Knights
Monte

Wolf lean (0-2 wolves)
Vanta
Ladd

Wolf lean (1-2 wolves)
Gemma
Maple

Stay hyped and hydrated, good night <3

The idea that Wisdom had ALL wolf buddies at No Idea or below is... not what I'd expect. Which would imply one of Grr/Insom.

But that's weak enough I could spit on it and tear it so idk.

Also like:

My instincts are telling me to screw you all and vote insomnia (I won't (I think))

This wild out of the blue mention when Insom has stayed in their town posts all game.

Vanta is a weird one. Does have them wolfy a lot early then like:

Vanta seems to have ~similar reads to me which I hope is good, couldn’t find anything else in his iso worth noticing, but he's generally less stilted than I remember him being in his wolf champs game.

Maybe he's just town. Sorry to be late on that train.

I town read vanta for a few hours d1 based on vibes, I'd say that's not the same thing. But I'm back to town leaning him, so, yay?

Back on Maple because I just noticed this but:

Because roleblocking v!Maple that specific night seems extremely -ev and something a wolf would do.

And why track Jan when you have the chance to catch a wolf?

It makes no sense. It sounds like you're just a wolf roleblocker who claimed due to being in danger. That implies Maple being town though so wth is this game.

I suddenly notice that despite wolfreading Maple all day and being like "I'm not budging from Maple" Wisdom suddenly turns tack and is like "But roleblocking V!Maple is bad!"

I mean that claim was... wild and I still dunno what Dolby was doing there. But like that specific tack after being solidly on wolf!Maple all day does feel partnered.

And then immediately goes back to being like "Why can't we yeet Maple!" moments later. As if talking about them being V is a blip in the radar.

I'm getting sidetracked.

Idk what my point was.

[EnderWiggin]

You think I have 20 charisma? :3

You're a bard, my friend :3
A sneaky sussy little bard

God I read this w/w so badly.

[EnderWiggin]

Honestly feel like I'm getting not a lot back from people rn lmao.

I swear I nearly have half the posts this phase.

[EnderWiggin]

I'm gonna be back 2-3 hours before EOD.

Hopefully Maple lives up to the claim of "nolifing this shit" because it'll at least gimme something to bite into and try n solve.

[insomnia]

ih, where's the interaction where you said maple and wisdom had the same read on me? :P


anyway, i hope vanta will not leave on that note. she needs to clarify her stance on ender and myself, i kinda agree with ender but only in the sense that i want her to take a more decisive stance by EoD on us rather than it being omega wolfy

i don't care about statistics and all that, the game still feels like 1 wolf alive to me. and it would be maple in my eyes

even in a 2 man i'd still guess him? i have a hard time putting a vote down that is not him, but maybe i'll feel different once i end up reading

kinda wanna stick to ender as a villa today. i think i've decided im fine giving him a win here if he's wolf due to how well he's posting. i'd only consider him f3. grr i wouldn't consider even at that point, although that's tough to say because the game still feels off in some way, i just don't know which way now. can't be paranoid about everything now cuz i'd be left with nothing to build on top of