Gemma's Favorite Music Mafia

[annika]

hm.

@didistetter @annika help me out here. remind me where you are on dya and read this from dya, does it feel genuine?

2 things that stick out to me:

-dya got defensive about not being at eod but that was a throwaway comment in my readslist. this is prob nothing but shrug
-does the ladd relief really track to you? that feels sketch to me. especially with how the hedge on ladd is prefaced in the first post?

mostly I had them town for their catch-up but it was one of my lighter reads. Arcy and Ladd were also townreading them for the Sunbae post and I liked their reasoning for it

Dya getting defensive over not being EoD might be NAI, i think theyre usually quick to defend themselves as either alignment

hmm. I see what you mean with the relief thing, they brush off the concern on Ladd a bit quickly

[didistetter]

idk mybe im stupid but ladd has sounded towny to me today other than the taffy stuff lol, but even the best villies can tunnel.

Ben I am rather infamously not good at reading dya. Their tone just always sounds wolfy to me.

i'll read back through d1 tonight probs, i need to figure out what i actually think.

[annika]

@Arctic personally I've been really liking Ben's contributions at EoD and especially today, he has seemed hella town to me not only for the pelt on Rask but on posting as well

@Maple I hope you're alright o7

I guess Taffy being a 3P might make sense? ive never seen a 3P in a 15er though so I'm still hesitant to vote her eheh

Ben's speculation around the setup makes sense, and like tbh I'd be more willing to vote her if she were wolfie, but she's still been townie to me so it's kinda like. bleh. i mean tbf a 3P might seem townie to me because they have no TMI but...,.,,,, still,..

[nebjiamn]

"Each night, target a player (you may self-target). If they are the same alignment as you, defuse any bombs strapped to them. You are told when you successfully defuse a bomb."
@nebjiamn i've been kinda rolling this over and the feedback part is interesting to me. Maf would realistically just be defusing the other wolves, but the feedback part is kinda ?

cause like you can argue that feedback is to counter the redirectors: but the redirectors function like a bodyguard: so they would normally be shielding town—which would be unlikely to interfere with maf diffusing other maf.

Ig i could see a 3p bomber buuuuut that would basically, with the rask role, make 3p a pseudo extra kp that only can target town, so their wincon seems kinda scuffed with an ungated mafia firefighter

idk villy makes more sense for me i think?

Villy arso, odd night bodyguard, even night bodyguard, maybe a tracker
+ mafia diffuser, maybe rolecop, maybe a gated kp

idk gemma setups, but 3 maf, town arso and a 3p seems a bit much lol

im running it around in my head. tbc, i would not expect there to be a town arso AND a 3p, its either or.

i'm not sure i track why you say it's limiting for them -- there isn't apparent feedback that they ARE bombed, just if the disarming was successful.

that is literally mafia's gated KP? if they target town with it, town blows up. this is where i'm getting hung up on taffy's role being 3p--does it make sense to give mafia a way to defuse themselves AND punish a town arsonist who lets out their claims before they die?

e.g. if taffy dies tonight and rask's role was alive (i.e. we didn't know about it),

-----actually hold on, i just raelized why taffy was thinking of the counterclaim

its very likelly she was told mafia could use her claim against her (via rasks role killing her targets) and this would also make sense why the other prs didnt get such feedback?

hmm

[Maple]

Eh Im just gonna send it

I'm an inventor and I gave nl a track last night. The whole *bombs* thing is a pretty funny coincidence.

[nebjiamn]

wolf inventor amirite

[Maple]

You know it bud

[didistetter]

@Visor confirm ?

Vote: Unvote

[Maple]

Admittedly giving the item to visor IS wolfing because I knew he'd defend me without outing the info and I figured I needed someone to mason with me to live deeper into the game.

Just don't have the juice to go the hard way here, and since we're basically massclaiming already i figure this info is pretty important.

[Maple]

Gemma crafting this cool ass setup only for the players to massclaim d2

[didistetter]

i wonder how much gemma enjoyed visor's disloyal wolf inventor in atla...

maple def wouldn't be a bury the invention in the NK coward like twice.

oddnight redirector, even night redirector, town arso, town inventor feels like a weird mix.



i wanna ignore all y'alls claims and solve off socials but that would make me still wanna kill maple.......

ben i dont really think rask role makes a ton of sense with wolf arso. i think i'd rather leave taffy for now.

Vote: Lissa wanna hear a bit more here i think :3

[Maple]

If I cross with the kill I die lol

[nebjiamn]

if i entertain the idea of all PRs being town (which is not at all a given imo lol) things shake up something like this aorn for me, tiers unordered within:

nebjiamn
Arctic
Maple
Taffy

didistetter
annika

pzelda
waza

ladd
Visor
Lissa
Ender
dyachei




im gonna fuck off and conserve my last 11 posts or whatever. i think rn i'm leaning toward an elim in ladd/dya/ender/maple but i don't really know how i want to prioritize all these claims yet so mmmv

gth if all claims are true (unlikely) pzelda really needs to be given a true look-see

[Gemma]

Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0
Day 2 - Votes from post 673 through 883

Votes	Target	Voters (Posts in Phase)
1	Visor	waza (22)
1	dyachei	nebjiamn (39)
1	ladd	Visor (13)
9	Not Voting	Arctic (22), EnderWiggin (13), Lissa (5), Maple (20), Totally not Taffy (6), annika (13), dyachei (2), ladd (16), pzelda (10), didistetter (26)

[Maple]

I guess that means I die if I cross with am ignite, I hadn't thought about that

[didistetter]

If I cross with the kill I die lol

sounds like a disloyal wolf conditional..........

[Maple]

Indeed

[annika]

4 PRs in a 15er is weird but I guess it's possible?

Look, kill me or annika idc. She's clearly acting in bad faith towards me. If I somehow get voted out here, presumably due to tiny wagons in a 15p game, then fuck it, give me my one.

49

Saving my last post to selfprez. I'm not a nerd who needs extra posts at EoD.

hmmm..... bolded doesnt feel PR-y though.....

[waza]

Wdym when your bombs go off? You don't have to kill me, do you?

I.. am not sure how much I believe this. Mainly because if you believed there was anticlaim then why would you blatantly soft in your first post? And why believe there was anticlaim in the first place? Secondly because in a 15'er, unless there are 4 wolves (which just based on how the game vibes as towny, I don't think is likely) with 3 wolves there is almost no way town has KP and if they do then wolves absolutely do too so... where is it? For that reason I don't really consider your claim in itself AI and I'm instead going off of your behaviour around it, and the anticlaim stuff + voting me and dipping is just.. kinda hard for me to reconcile as genuine. But I do like how you brought light to the fact I am probably a PR today

Since you have doused me, yeah, I am a PR. Specifically I'm the even night version of Sunbae's role. I was not informed about any anticlaim. So I will in fact self-resolve and you should not kill me. Especially because it does not get us a ML

I'm not at all convinced you're town but I feel like I've been outplayed either way, weirdly. Claiming to have ttargeted specifically me after I already claimed I wasn't a PR has put me in a pretty bad position (lmao) because.. if you are a wolf planning to use your role leashed to whoever town wants you to kill then killing me is a perfect way of killing a villager without being outted, because I was in everyone's PoE already

U didn’t need to have claimed

[waza]

Eh Im just gonna send it

I'm an inventor and I gave nl a track last night. The whole *bombs* thing is a pretty funny coincidence.

Why did you out what u gave? U could have just claimed inventor and left it at that

[Lissa]

idk lol

u/ladd were my designated tinfoils if taffy seemed town

u seemed towny enough last couple of pages and errrr im not worried about ladd cos i know people are just gonna hound his ass all game regardless of alignment

maple seems fine enough ig

ender is townreading me all game and i like it, doesnt neccessarily make him town though

so it really just boils down to if i think theres 2 wolves in that pool......and im like errrr maybe? but im not really convinced it has to be the case either, and plus i think most of those names should get got before me lmao, unless someone gets hell tunneled but thats on them not me if that happens

so yaaa this is a big lead up to a very disappointing finish where i just say im shrugging and trying to aim for the wolf i lose to now rather than later before its too late, not convinced it has to be lissa but im just testing the waters. mostly just boiled down to me looking back at eod votes, trying to think what wolves would be doing and what their wincons would be. lissas vote on rask seemed pretty random so yah i voted there and will see what happens or how i feel in the morning or after ive read the game some more

Why do you see it as random? It was pretty obviously me thinking it was incorrect to kill Taffy and figuring I should make sure that didn't happen.

ig one of the things with ladd is that for me to believe hes a wolf i have to accept thats hes played against his own wincon during this game lmao

hes a smart gui, probs one of the smartest i met on fm so i somewhat expect him to be aware of how certain things would play out if hes a wolf

and if hes a wolf that means hes townsided unnecessarily to his own detriment at times (im going off vague memory so ill need to fact check)

like if ben is town which i think he is, then lads shielded me ben sunbae from getting heat when we were vulnerable. ok sure i somewhat forced him into townreading me so that doesnt count as much, and if ben is town hes the type of town that i imagine anyone with tmi would have a really hard time trying to justify a sr on

but with sunbae, there was a moment where sunbae was getting alota heat, and ladd spoke out against it and has been vocal against pushing the taffy wagon. the thing is though, if ladds a wolf hes well aware that hes on a timer, and that people have vocally expressed if taffy is town they'll push him. so its in ladds benefit to delay the taffy flip as long as he can,rrather then reinforce it. so for example when haru gets pushed, ladd is much better off just doing literally anything other than what he did lmao.

tbf one of the last times i tried to apply a wolf strategy read on someone it failed (twice) but i dont remember many other times its backfired. im not outright clearing ladd and will obv keep an open eye, its just i cant really figure out what his game plan would be as wolf, i can make a similar case for maple albeit i find it less convincing so i probs wont unless i feel stronger about it

I think this is pretty misplaced? Of course a ladd wolf is going to do things like shield some villagers; also ben was absolutely not ever seriously vulnerable, and frankly I didn't really think sunbae was ever going over D1 either, I was kinda baffled when he claimed ngl. makes more sense w/ what the role was but at the time I was sort of confused

idk I don't think sunbae was ever going over lol just on VIBES maybe I'm wrong

I don't think delaying the taffy flip is unambiguously beneficial for ladd; it's a tradeoff of ensuring you GET that flip versus delaying looking bad for it but it potentially not happening?

wrt to Maple: I've read over both your and Lissa's reasons for doubting she's a wolf here, and I get it, but it's not quite convincing to me. possibly because it's a meta thing and I'm not too familiar with Maple

from my PoV she did kinda push wolf agenda though, because I was a viable wagon that Lissa was voting on (at least) and Ben projected a strong-ish wolfread on me for a while before postcapping; she could reasonably think that push could go through at EoD

the main thing in her favour is that she didn't vote Arctic, but... FMPOV it's like townreading her for townsiding *at all*. she didn't do anything to defend his wagon at the very least. she also didn't do much to defend Taffy besides say "how are we going Taf here" after she claimed PR lol

I think giving her cred for not voting Taffy is like insane imo she was LITERALLY a PR claim asdgfkldashgkj and Maple PoE'd her before the claim

there's not much else you can do to wolfside at EoD besides push on Taffy (a claimed PR), so it's really just that she didn't vote Arctic. and that would've been at odds with her read list in 476 anyway ^^;

imo she just exhausted her options when both of the people at the bottom of her list claimed PR, she was stuck voting the third. maybe you can argue "why didn't she bus?" but meh that's WIFOM

(ftr this is just me explaining why the reasons to TR her aren't convincing to me, not that anything I'm mentioning here is explicitly wolfie—it goes either way, I just have other reasons to SR her)

---

in terms of my other reads... I still think Ben's v, and I've kinda been feeling better about Ender recently based on his wolfread of Arctic. Stett's/Waza's/Taffy's posting has kinda just reaffirmed my previous reads on them, so not much has rly changed for me besides Ender xD

To be clear my stuff re: maple is a her whole play this game thing not at all just eod; it's her entire approach to d1 as a whole. Like it's not really about the eod though that's a part of it; I just think she'd have played the whole day in a way that would have ended up positioning her more usefully at eod + in general as a wolf.

I just spent the better part of four days wolfing with her in like a SUPER intense wolfgame and obviously this game wouldn't look like that it's not exactly comparable in that sense, but I just. really don't think this is what it would look like, I feel like I have a pretty good insight into how she thinks when wolfing now, and this just doesn't fit.

--

I think Taffy being a neutral is extremely possible. Just kinda instinctively it feels like a thing that makes sense? Both in terms of what the role is and how it fits into what we know of the setup I feel like it's probably the world we are in, town arso doesn't really quite feel right?

When I saw Rask flipped wolf I remembered this conversation Benneh and Lissa had (I've truncated them to only the relevant parts)



And I think I misunderstood what Benneh was saying bc to me "vigilance" means "watchfulness" and therefore "being protective of someone" and Happy was not protective of Rask at all (all Happy posts about Rask up till that point in spoiler)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

But now having gathered them all to make this post I assume the vigilance referred to something like being very focused on something (in this case the zero-poster)?

Anyway this is a lead-in to ask @nebjiamn and @Lissa why they aren't pushing Happy today for the over the top TWTBAW "I'm bussing Rask" joke three times and then voting there EoD but switching off when the wagon actually takes off.

Taffy (6)

waza's handling of rask doesn't... really make sense if he is a wolf. I mean there's worlds where it was some weird levelly thing, but like. waza was probably part of the reason killing rask ever got seriously considered? I'd guess he put the thought in at least some heads with what he was doing earlier in the day? then he chooses to not vote there eod? I don't reaaallly think that's the choice he makes there as a wolf? like it's not strictly impossible but it's kinda jank.

Eh Im just gonna send it

I'm an inventor and I gave nl a track last night. The whole *bombs* thing is a pretty funny coincidence.

oh that's what that was

cute soft lol

[Lissa]

I think I'm probably village reading dya more strongly than I should be, gonna give them a reread

Still pretty strongly think visor is a villager, I think his focus/choices of direction here would be different/are pretty odd if he's a wolf and not how he'd be inclined to approach things

[Visor]

@Visor confirm ?

Vote: Unvote

Go look at his first post this day phase where he mentions nl and track

Seems likely

Now I'm dead tho f

[Maple]

Why did you out what u gave? U could have just claimed inventor and left it at that

No reason not to, it's easily derivable from my post at start of day.

[dyachei]

why couldn't he just be a wolf who was getting progressively boxed in by other reads on you?

when you said you cleared him at eod i thought you meant like, actually eod

what's your read on him if you ignore how he's reading you entirely?

trying to get caught up, but this stuck out to me

If I ignore how he's reading me entirely he's kind of null to me. he's done things I think are towny and things I think are wolfy.

That's why I'm leaning on that, and yes, he could have felt boxed out, but a lot of people werent reading me all that strongly at the time so...idk

[dyachei]

yeah I've kind of come around to that; want to see what she has to say today/see her claim fully, but



Wait what

I didn't catch that at all, I mean multiple other people also still tried to kill taffy after the claim? I also really wish you didn't say that because I really do not think it was that obvious, so I hope you're wrong.

mostly I think maple is playing super weird if she is a wolf, I really don't think this is how she would be playing this game at all if she had randed wolf. a wolf maple looks at the game and has a 0 posting partner d1 in a REALLY villagery thread full of really strong players, she can surely tell she's gonna have to go deep this game. and just going rask if it turned out there wasn't really a better option at eod was clearly on several people's minds some way or another, I think, at least as some kind of faint consideration. I'm pretty confident she'd have picked up on that, and she both doesn't bus or try to at all look good and ALSO doesn't try to come up with any kind of real, meaningful alternative and just keeps tunneling annika?? idk it's really hard for me to see her choosing not to either try to capitalize on or avoid what happened and also for her to on top of that continue a tunnel that like everyone hates for no productive purpose

like if manti was a wolf she could've focused on pushing taffy or arctic (if they are villagers. if either is a wolf it's even weirder that she didn't try to get any kind of credit out of any of it, like ?????) or ladd (again if he is a villa but like... I mean these options aren't ALL gonna be wolves lol) or if there was another wolf also in danger it's MORE weird that she didn't actually either try to find a real alternative or take a side.

I just don't really see a wolf agenda in her posting at all. if she was a wolf she would be playing wildly different imo. there's a few different ways that could go depending on both her team and the choices she decides to make but none of them look anything like this.

also she would like, reaaallly want to win as a wolf in this playerlist lol

and her posting just isn't really advancing that, she's kinda off on her own adventure tryharding but in a way it's hard to imagine she thinks meaningfully advances her wincon as a wolf

I've actually talked myself into this read being stronger than it was before I typed this out. Her whole play this game is just completely at odds with how I imagine her approaching this game as a wolf.


ladd just kinda feels a bit idk, off. his posts just feel like they are missing something? he doesn't pop out as having done anything strongly villagery. not a read I feel super great about. shouldn't be a wolf with taffy though.

ender is a bit complicated. part of me just thinks they don't seem like they're on a team/in a wolfchat at all? certain kind of almost diconnected/off on their own. I don't see an agenda, they're just kind of meandering around thinking about things. but it's in such a way I kinda feel like I might be misreading a style thing? idk, I almost wrote them with a question mark in that second town tier.

Lissa's part on Ladd is like...spot on

[dyachei]

feels shitty for ben to call me villagery when I've been around then voting me anyway but I kind of get it. I'm just disappointed because my time has been severely limited this game so far and I'm likely to miss eod tomorrow, too

[dyachei]

im kind of getting arctic v vibes from his posts. there's something...nonchalant about them? and that fits with the pr claim

[dyachei]

I still think ben is a villager

I think waza is a villager and reading him is always like vibes for me. He feels good in thread rn and he's not backing down on his convictions

Lissa probably v, the relief feels palpable after last game

I want visor to be a villager, and I think he is, but I'm clearly not unbiased here. I think his posts are visor-y though and they can go either way sometimes. I just think he tips the scale to villager

I'm backing off my v read of ladd because I agree with lissa that he feels off even if he is trying to hit the right notes and I'm concerned he had a hard time finding me

idk what to do with taffy's claim

Idk how to read ender well

Maple isn't striking me as overly villagery but I do think the item thing might be v

[nebjiamn]

vote: ladd