Kylo Ren's Banana Time Mafia

[Sunbae]

oh god get the multiquotes away ahhhh

[Sunbae]

alrighty, i am here

gonna re read the game real quick (and especially cathc up to d2)


i read sunbae latest posts and honestly i dont think i will be able to find him if he is a wolf lmao

visor otoh

ladd GOAT

[Sunbae]

Again though. That sequence of

its ladd/maple" -> let me do my due diligence and reread -> uh ladd is the most villagery person in the game??? and rask is a villager too? i guess its maple/ender or just one wolf or something -> harp on ender killing jan repeatedly

did a lot of work and i think if you read through visors posts at that time he was a lil shook too! maybe just wishful thinking but i see it!

[Sunbae]

im out for the night, hope to wake up to a win

[Gemma]

Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0
Day 5 - Votes from post 1197 through 1234

Votes	Target	Voters (Posts in Phase)
1	Sunbae	EnderWiggin (15)
1	EnderWiggin	Sunbae (16)
1	Not Voting	Lissa (4)

Votes are locked.

[Lissa]

alright, laid on the floor thinking about this game for a while, now time for a reread of the game

i haven't really slept today so i don't know how much i feel like voting before sleeping but i also might just do it, tbd!

[Lissa]

Preliminarily, the things I thought about on the floor:
-A question I wanted to answer was: What are the strong reasons for Ender to be a villager. I do think that Ender has posted well in this game, to be clear. (in theory this exercise was: what are the reasons ender is a villa, reasons ender is a wolf, reasons sunbae is a villa, reasons sunbae is a wolf but I think I sorta half dozed off and lost my train of thought a bit. I think I've delved pretty extensively into both sides of this for sunbae though and I just.. realized I felt like I was really lacking in doing so on the ender side of things? And sorta solving both more off sunbae than anything, yesterday, to some extent.)
-Extending from that, I thought about: the weird way Visor played around Ender, asking half the thread what they thought of him but never doing anything with it other than... briefly trying to tie Ladd to him as w/w. On some level this stuff can kinda go either way. But also sticks out to me that Jan hard townread him/shielded him as well. And again, Visor literally never tried to actually kill Ender in any even close to meaningful way at all when there was plenty of alleys for trying to do so I would say.
-I'm hesitant to weight this one a lot cause it's like... inherently speculative and the last time I based a decision on mech spec, the result was "I was wrong and almost singlehandedly lost a game if not for some weird specific mechanical circumstances that pulled it back" although that mech spec was also a lot more ESOTERIC and jank, but anyway, intuitively, it makes a lot of sense to me that wolves have some sort of bomb info or protection role. Some sort of role that interacts with the setup. Like the core role of this setup is clearly that neutral role, and that's where a lot of the other mechanical stuff in the setup springs from and what all of it interacts with. Waza had the village role interacting with it. To circle back to my point, the living wolf is probably a fairly relevant wolf PR. With four bombs out, making nightkills is soooorta a fuckin minefield for wolves that it's hard to imagine there's zero counterplay for.
-To come back to the relevant point moreso, Visor and Jan distinctively avoiding pushing ender and shielding him respectively really sticks out through this lens as fitting with that.
-I do want to really pay attention to this as I reread the game, there's some later Visor stuff I also want to talk about and I also need to pay closer attention to how both treated Sunbae.

[Lissa]

Also thought some about the Jan parting gift thing, and how it fit into those mechanical lines, and how basically, using that is choosing to give village that extra kill right then, instead of letting whatever villager has the n3 likely use it otherwise then and likely die unless they're super, super clear. They don't know it's me! I sorta tried to parse that for a while. But if that parting gift turned out to be someone super villagery or something (which it was, but the Result in this case is sorta beside the point) then having Jan not hold and be elimed the next day there is... basically, the wolves let us kill maple for free instead of only being able to use that "free" kill on a specific villager (they didnt know who, but it was me. coulda been maple. i think all the other options possible made doing this significantly worse for them)

So like you want to get HIGH upside out of doing that, surely. I mean if you don't do it... Jan dies the next day, you go to f6, 2:4 or 2:3 depending on what happens with the other gift. Unless gift is on exactly maple and she's the free kill, don't you (you as in wolves) just kinda fucking win that? I mean. Lmao like..

[Lissa]

but anyway, going into n1, if 11 alive/3 wolves, there's a real world that hitting a poisonous bomb is literally 50/50 lol. Bit of an extreme end, but seems cursed af if no counterplay at all.

Could also explain stuff like cape kill over .. well I was gonna say me and rask, but idk that rask made that much sense yet there actually, nvm. Obviously I lived cause visor was successfully pocketing the shit out of me. When we talked about this before it was visor saying why not me or visor, lmao. Anyway. Also sorta notable that if they buried the gift and had wolf ender claim it, they basically had to decide the nightkill before EoD.

But, reading the game. Highly focused, as you can see.


Very funny if like.. village Sunbae dropped that Jan strong town p2 read and multiple wolves were both like ??? cause they knew jan was a wolf. Notably, visor and ender seem to be the only reactions.

Cape/Rask/Sunbae/Waza likely has 0 wolves. Vanta maybe there too but reserving judgement.

I am not going to snap read Ladd because I have no idea if this is opportunistic wolfy Ladd or if it's towny Ladd who wolfreads me randomly. (Last game alone is an example of Ladd calling me "Second wolfiest poster in this thread" while we were v/v)

Visor is visoring tho I'm a lil sketched at their incessant poking of people to read me. Lightest shade of red.

Jan feels wolfy. Maple feels wolfy. Lissa doesn't feel.

I don't know if I forgot someone but I think those are my reads atm.

from an ender W standpoint this is a VERY accurate list (well either way really but especially so). idk how much i think that means in any direction really, nor did he exactly go anywhere with the actually accurate parts on d1

vote: Jan

Just vibes mostly. I went over all his posts and didn't really see anything that said town. One post in particular about voting a villager so as to keep Knights around longer, as I guess his stumpness is over as soon as we ax a wolf. Kind of sounded like he thought he could make that happen. Anyway it pinged me.

Also I took an antihistamine and fell asleep at my computer which is not helping my mental sharpness at all.

Thought Ender's beginning series of posts was...strange? It seemed to me that it sounded like he had read the thread, but then was reacting to things as if he had not read the thread (like not knowing that Knights had flipped, and there was something else that now escapes my woozy brain). He looked better to me later though.

Of the current vote leaders. logic hasn't said a lot but also only a few posts, while Lissa has a lot of posts but I can't remember her saying a lot in all those posts. So if I had to go with one of those two it'd be Lissa.

Okay let me amend that, I'm reading everybody's posts but I did go back in particular to look at Jan's. Not the only one.

I could switch to Visor, that weird push about me being w/w with Cape because I get mizzled a lot seemed like a stretch and also seemed like a way to say I'm an easy mizzle so why not? It also pushed me into thinking Cape probably v.

if ender is a wolf, holy moly, no wonder vanta died

really regardless of that lol

[EnderWiggin]

In absolutely classic fashion I've got badly sick and will no longer be disappearing to see Beetlejuice stageplay tomorrow. I'm gonna try to sleep and actually have a working brain.

Once again irl conspires against me for ww lol.

[EnderWiggin]

Honestly if I get hammered for fitting being "Wolf anti-poison PR" I'll probably at least laugh over it.

[EnderWiggin]

I will say that I feel like something I should point out is how Sunbae's arguments keep returning to the "Look at how good my turnaround was!" should be wolfy in a vacuum because like, I can fake progression as wolf and Sunbae is a much better player than me.

And then quoting all the people who called him town while calling them goats, I can do that too and there's several people who did that.

I want to point out Knights who called Jan as wolfy correctly as treestump also dipped a sus down on Sunbae. Kinda d1 so less relevant but like, my point is that quoting people calling you town or your cross wolf is easy and actually means nothing but Sunbae is acting like it's irrefutable proof because audacity and confident statements sway people because it sounds nice.

[EnderWiggin]

That's all for me as I go to try and cough up my organs in my bed.

[Lissa]

i don't know how you go from saying enders posts are "I am ngl when i first read his posts i thought he seemed fine

But then i re read them and wow they are so wolfy lmao"

and then the second spurt is fine and really?

i don't really understand how you changed your mind here

at the risk of making another w/w read.....

the ladd/ender w/w post from visor

I am still ~kinda confident Rask is town. Confidence shaken but not stirred.

Vote: Visor

Honestly don't have a super big scumread on Visor myself, but given their still as-of-yet unexplained obsession with getting people to react to me on D1 and Rask+Waza being here I'm willing to entertain it for now while I stare balefully in Maple's general direction.

Actually Visor's obsession with poking people in my direction might just be a strong wolftell. There was the other game where they wolfed recently and we D1'd em where they had this aggro on me for 0 reason.

ok i want to see where this, like, actually goes

Okay nevermind this isn't as similar as I wanted it to be. Nyeh.

well

Also Lissa might be my second biggest sus after re-reading eod.

There's a lot of wishywashy ending in a lame vote on Logic. And the 'agonising' over who to sus doesn't really feel like it's going anywhere. Maybe will feel diff after they enter D2 but this is worthy of a

the stuff described here didn't. really even happen psure

Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0
Day 2 - Votes from post 370 through 427

Votes	Target	Voters (Posts in Phase)
3	Visor	EnderWiggin (6), Raskolnikov (9), waza (1)
2	Raskolnikov	Sunbae (13), Visor (14)
6	Not Voting	Cape90 (9), Jan (0), Lissa (0), Logic (0), Maple (3), ladd (1)

I had Jan as wolfy. They kinda misrepped me in a "defend Maple but not directly" way that kinda felt paired but idk if I'm reading too much into it.

It was this whole "How does Ender do this to Maple?!??!?"

thing is, ender still hasn't DONE anything with this read really

not even a vote

Ladd is in the weird position where I think he could be a wolf, but there is no point in pushing him today, when he is mostly gone for this phase.
The n1 kill makes me think Ladd will be alive for a while, and we can talk about him when he is back.

I agree with waza that sunbae might be someone to look at if you are a villager (or rather if rask/you is v/v).
I don't have a strong read on you, but I rarely read you these days. You either find a wolf and die at night or don't find a wolf and die during the day.

I don't think this game has a lot of "counter culture" simply because most people could still be wolves and reads are fairly soft.

Why only one in Ladd ender

What do you make of ladds switch off from ender

visor bringing up ladd/ender, again

(he did kinda soft drop it after)

Vote: Unvote

I have had a day. Idk how much time I'll have to properly read leading up to EOD. But with this I think I'm more okay with Jan or Lissa dying over Visor now.

Visor has really talked about wanting to read Ender but then like not reading ender like twice today, in the second post being like "Ender is tomorrow's problem"

ok i had to go back and find this post, which is probably about my cue to go to bed

i don't disagree with this

ladds reaction to my callout of his ender posts was also just very much a walterwhiteyougotme.gif too (not in a bad way, just that he was like yeah, fair)

it is hard for me to wrap my head around some of the play pattern though - ladd saying what he did in such a strong manner made me thought oh he is going to have seen what i saw

and then he never did and reversed the read for what seems like lacklustre reasoning for such strong word choices in his original push there

but then why do that in the frst place if w/w right? like is your goal to have some sort weird theatre, but then you back down anyway afterwards

i think i am coming around to it being too sloppy to be w/w or at least not planned interactions in that way

i need to reread enders posts re me but i am quite bad at accurately processing responses to me like those so im just gonna put that off till tomorrow lol

i dont know what to make of rask backing off on me a bit - kind of like a kid with his hand in the cookie jar when mum catches him lol

like i want to be like yes this is villagery because you've come to a correct read in a higher stake situation but the thread situation for rask has noticeably turned for the worst and therefore tis possible he also noticed that and saw that he had to back off and change direction for the time being

sometimes i wish i could crush sentimentality lmao

tomorrows problem!

heres the main visor punts on ender, post

I completely dozed off while trying to catch up lolme.

Vote: Lissa

mm i do think visor's posts re waza here feel more directed at /killing waza/ than protecting sunbae

i think ender just dropped that vote on me and left? i know he talked about it a bit later/the next day rather, i'll get to it

4/2 felt boring 4/3 might be more exciting idk.

oh it was here, is this literally it

(he did make more posts but they weren't really about where he was voting or why or about options or anything)

despite having correct multiple wolfreads, ender hasnt really tried to kill the more viable of them to actually die (jan) at all and is ending day on a villager when his read on me was probably the thinnest/limpest reason out of his wolfreads

and he just leaves his vote on me with only the explanation of basically, making interesting wagons when 1. i am there actively posting and people are generally reading my posting as villagery and, well, it is 2. the wagon formation he's describing has gone away/changed

If we don't kill Jan and I don't really want to kill lissa

I will accept maple ender or waza

this is just lip service, ender was never dying there lol



i about need to go to bed i think, so gonna finish reading/vote after i sleep, sorry yall

i think its obviously pretty clear what way i am heavily leaning but i do want to finish rereading before i commit

[Lissa]

In absolutely classic fashion I've got badly sick and will no longer be disappearing to see Beetlejuice stageplay tomorrow. I'm gonna try to sleep and actually have a working brain.

Once again irl conspires against me for ww lol.

unfortunate, feel better soon friendo

[Sunbae]

hope you feel better ender

[Sunbae]

It is true that I'm harping on the same things but that's because I believe those are the main keys that get to the correct answer.

1. I believe my day 3 and day 4 is a clear cut case of a villager who just got a good chunk of information sorting through the game and changing their world view based on it. You can also see that it's not just a 180 out of nowhere but instead is someone taking in new information, adjusting some reads based on it, trying to fit those in with the previous strong reads, realizing it's hard for those to all exist, work through the possibilities required for those to all exist, decide they are unlikely, and then sorting through things again giving more weight to the new information and letting go of the earlier held beliefs. I had my strong Visor v read, realized that Ladd and Rask are likely villagers based on the new information of cape/waza/jan deaths, tried to find the worlds where visor/ladd/rask were all v such as lissa/ender wolves or maple/ender wolves, and then eventually came to the conclusion - with help of listening to my strong villager read of ladd calling lissa v and dead villagers cape/waza calling lissa v - that lissa was not the solution. So I landed on Maple/Ender on day 3 and when Maple flipped V and rask died V I went through the game again and determined the wolves were likely Visor and Ender evident by my voting Visor and telling Ladd I was snapping Ender the next day. It is my belief that this is just not something a wolf can replicate. Pieces of it? Sure. The entirety of the process laid out in order? No.


2. Jan giving a gun to a villager when all the wolves need is for maple to be chopped at any point for the win otherwise is just never happening. I sniffed it out as soon as it happened, latched onto it, and just never shut up about it. I have a bunch of posts talking about it because it never made sense to me. If the wolves are me/jan/visor then all we need is one chop out of maple, ender, or rask in that game state (ever! not just the next day! we can chop jan and then maple and win!) and giving the village an extra kill makes zero sense for us. Once you confirmed that you could holster it I latched on harder because I thought "why wouldnt they just give it to a wolf and not shoot, idk" initially but knowing they didnt have to submit at all made it clear to me. It was a major factor of the majority of my solving from that point. Maple/Ender. Lissa/Ender. Visor/Ender. It all circled around that and even at this point with all the talking about it there has still been no explanation that makes sense for why Jan would give a gun to a villager. There are plenty of reasons you'd give one to a wolf though if you think it will make ender look good while visor has two people pocketed and you can cruise to a maple into me/ladd/rask chop. It also makes no sense for Jan to give the gun to a villager who was suspecting him, which Ender said he was doing.


I have hammered these two things over and over again yesterday/today because I think they prove that both I am a villager and that Ender is a wolf respectively.