Kylo Ren's Banana Time Mafia

[Sunbae]

just sat down for my reread so ill get back to you

[Sunbae]

d1/d2 recap of things i found noteworthy for each player during reread (raw data, no conclusion yet)

Rask:
- "I made a note on Ladd, I'll reveal it later"
- says Jan needs more votes in passing
- votes me, everyones favorite villager
- votes lissa once visor does
- doesn't like enders vote on maple (again, defending maple just "lacking")
- unsure what to do with visor now, calls maple/lissa coordinated
- asks ladd why vote logic instead of maple
- votes visor
- questions vanta for their jan vote, says its out of nowhere
- pushes visor more wondering why he was pushing vanta and cape, says its too proactive for villa visor prior to eod
- begging people to vote visor at eod. ends with 3-2-2 logic visor maple. Logic flips v.
- starts d2 pushing visor
- says visor isnt trying to find peoples alignment, just pushing people waiting for a case to take off
- but does like the callout of jan
- says if visor villa we need to look into maple/lissa/jan then votes lissa
- hates to admit it but visor might be villa, lissa still has wolf equity as does maple, likes ender, wishy washy on me, waza/ladd town
- has ladd villa based on d1

Ladd:
- becomes double voter, votes Jan
- waza comments that his nonchalance when voting Jan is wolfy as there would be pressure there to be right (also a too much lmao read)
- calls visor wolfy, says theres no reason cape cant just be a wolf pushing a villager or a villager with a right read
- says he thought ender was fine then reread the posts and wow they are so wolfy
- says is ok with jan, visor, cape, vanta, waza, me, rask
- now thinks visor is a wolf
- thinks lissa is villa, doesnt wanna lunch cape because he thinks waza is villa and waza likes cape villa, changed his mind again on ender and likes the recent posts about maple, calls jan v because i called jan v, has visor wolfy still
- votes logic
- changes his mind on sheeping jan v and calls him in commentary mode
- disappointed in jans reentry
- confident in rask/cape/waza villa
- votes lissa, defends visor, calls rask/visor v/v but also doesnt know if that works. says one concern is visor/maple being w/w cause the push feels w/w
- votes jan



Visor:
- Calls cape/vanta w/w with the idea that cape knows vanta is most common miskill and as a villager would wait and see whereas the early vote points to knowing they are gonna get pressured and getting on early.
- defends maple to ender (manti hasnt done anything alignment indicative)
- pushes back on my jan v read a smidge then asks me about ender and maple
- votes lissa
- votes maple
- starts day 2 pushing rask, #400 is the "mask off, painted the words IM A WOLF" post
- calls maple a wolf, then asks jan about vanta dying given vanta was wolf reading jan
- is confused about ladds take on ender and flip flopping
- says maple is in their slanking wolf game, d2 for jan is looking worse because theres nothing against thread position. like he's worried about who to push instead of just pushing wolf reads
- votes maple with a cmon do something
- likes lissa voting jan (more stick your neck out than her normal wolf game)
- votes jan after lissa extensive casing of jan w
- questions ender voting lissa and where the jan read went
- calls waza/jan w/w
- votes waza
- votes jan
- votes waza


ender
- defends rask from waza but calls waza v for the read
- votes vanta, then changes course and votes maple
- calls jan wolfy for "this his down to end it with idk if wolfy" in comments about ender
- says cape, rask, me, waza likely has zero wolves. maybe vanta too.
- says jan feels wolfy, maple feels wolfy, slight red to visor, lissa is w/e
- reiterates that maples latching onto "capes omgus" is just hardcore aggro wolfing
- pushes back at jan and rask defending maple
- calls rask town
- starts day 2 reiterating rask town, votes visor, calls cape town too
- reiterates visor wolf using a previous game as evidence where visor was weirdly aggro towards him but then pulls it back after actually checking and pulling the quotes
- continues to call rask v and then calls lissa sus
- calls jan/maple feeling of being paired
- votes lissa after lissas extensive jan casing


lissa
- defends maple to ender with the same "hasnt done anything alignment indicative" reasoning as visor did earlier
- votes cape
- agreed with ladd that jan v, but disagrees on cape v and still thinks cape is a wolf
- agreed with ladd that jan is in commentary mode and is probably somewhat >rand wolf
- doesnt wanna kill cape anymore, maybe ender but meh not really
- votes logic
- not villa reading visor strongly anymore
- explains she didnt wanna killa maple eod1, "liked a couple of her posts"
- thinks rask/visor is v/v, thinks im a villager, thinks jan is a wolf and votes jan
- does a whole post quoting some jan posts saying she still thinks jans a wolf
- does it again
- does it a third time
- does it a fourth time
- has a conclusion post about jan wolf (564)
- has a followup about it with visor who agreed
- doesnt want to kill visor, thinks jan is actively wolfy
- votes waza?
- votes jan ("kill the wolfy player who is probably a wolf")
- votes waza
- doesnt wanna go maple



maple
- votes ender as an unabashed omgus
- cases cape as a w

jan interactions
- shades ender for their posts towards knights and their vote on maple but then says twtbaw
- supports lissa's pushing of cape (i read this as not aligned fwiw)
- votes lissa d2, has maple lissa as the two wolf reads
- says enders intro d1 is too convoluted to come from a wolf. the way he agreed with maple just to turn around within two heartbeats

[Sunbae]

Conclusions based on rereading:

1. Ladd is quite villagery. Becoming a double voter and immediately voting Jan, reasonable looking back and forths about players like visor and ender where see movement happening in his opinions based on posts that are happening, has good reasons to villa read villagers being pushed a bit such as defending cape because he thinks waza is a villager and waza thinks cape is a villager. Has a good shift on Jan from v (sponging me) to disagreeing and calling him in commentary mode after another spurt of Jan posting. Has every ability to just keep that V read and blame me for it but is calling out Jan instead. Votes Jan again. In order for Ladd to be a wolf he has to just be playing rather pro villa. Defending villagers and pushing wolves while doing so with fluid reads on people.

2. I have concerns about Ender who called out Jan and Maple as w/w but then once the eod 2 happens where Jan and Maple are wagons ends up voting Lissa (who has just cased Jan extensively). However, I do feel like their posts on Maple are pretty spot on ("hardcore aggro wolfing") and I think their sequence with Visor about calling him out for being wolfy for a similar aggression to him as a recent wolfgame and then backing off when he went and found it and noticed it was different is villagery. I just struggle to see where the lissa vote came in that context so hopefully he can help me out with that and I can be ok.

3. There were multiple instances of her defending Maple against pressure that stood out to me - notably the one that actively says she liked some of Maples posts rather than just the nai defense - and once she started going on Jan she didn't stop for a while only to last second swap to Waza because visor called Jan/Waza w/w??? So one of two things occurred here: 1.) Lissa started the bus on Jan once it was becoming apparent that his time was short (and knowing he was going to give the gun to someone and might be dead anyways) so did so thoroughly and convincing where she quoted multiple Jan posts and read them as the wolfiest interpretation possible. Like 5-6 posts about it in a shortish order and reiterating it with people. Then once another avenue opened up at eod she figured why not get waza if possible. or 2.) She correctly buried a wolf and then got cold feet at eod when he came in and claimed, then voted the other wagon that wasnt someone she was defending (maple).

I can see both of those possible. The thing is I can see her as a wolf with Maple (defending one while bussing the other), with Visor (working together to push it onto Waza), or with Ender (Jan returns and wolfchat concocts the "let ender shoot me" plan so they need Ender/Lissa to make sure Jan lives that night). I do find it odd that Jan is the only person she latches onto and really digs into their posts to reiterate their wolfiness yet backs off at eod.

This is a tough spot for me because she did spend time defending me that eod while cape/waza wanted to shade me. So I think I'm supposed to clear her for defending me/pushing jan but yeah idk. I'm keeping an open mind and I see a lot of lissa wolf avenues.


chewing on visor/rask stuff still so more to come there

[Sunbae]

god im either great at werewolf or dogshit at it but i wanna call ladd the villageriest person in the game after rereading ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Sunbae]

My thoughts on rask is that like every dead villager had rask as an obvious villager and even alive people are all circling around it (ladd has it strong, ender does too, then visor/lissa are kinda like yeah i want to call rask a wolf but maybe hes just v).

If I look at his posting myself then I do have a few concerns. First, he's had multiple instances of throwing Jan into wolf reads (needs more votes, likes visors callout of jan for the vanta night kill when he was wolfreading jan, if visor villa we need to looks at maple/lissa/jan) but never actually applying any pressure there like he does to maple and lissa in similar spots. Second, I feel like the Vanta kill comes after rask getting to talk to him all night means there could be more than rasks post about their hood chats (that is, vanta gives reads and rask is like oh lets kill him). Third, I feel like the flip flopping on visor is odd in the strength of things. The reasons listed for pushing visor are strong things such as "isnt trying to find peoples alignment", "too proactive for villa visor" but the reasons for backing off are just like "well i hate to admit it but maybe visor is a villa" without anything specific and concrete as a reason to point to for that feeling. Which I find concerning because either you're exaggerating your strength of the wolf read to back off of it for lighter reasons or you're less willing to describe why you're villa reading him rather than wolf reading him. Which both make me go hmmm.

HOWEVER, there are good call outs of jan in there even if they aren't followed up on. There is clear back and forth on visor thoughts. He is trying to get his wolf reads killed and not laying back in commentary mode. He's sticking his neck out into things and bouncing around topics. His strong villa reads seem good.

Gun to head I'm calling him a villager based off of the dead villagers and the fact that I have to elaborately explain ways he could be a wolf while the ways he can be a villager are just "yeah hes playing well as a villager, makes sense"

[Visor]

god im either great at werewolf or dogshit at it but i wanna call ladd the villageriest person in the game after rereading ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

really? walk me through it

[Sunbae]

really? walk me through it

Like Ladd has just been pro villa start to finish. defending cape, defending waza, not hiding behind my jan v read and starting to get there on him, voting jan as a double voter, votes jan again like idk its just all pretty villagery to me results wise

[Sunbae]

I think if I just take a deep breath it's like "games easy, just pew pew maple then ender when he doesnt die in the night or its 2 wolves and thats why the third is hard to find" but some very hard worlds exist and id really like to fade them

[Sunbae]

Ladd, you asked my thoughts on visor after eod2 so here we go. I am going to attempt to view Visors game from the view point of him being a wolf in the most uncharitable way possible and then see if I think it makes sense at the end.

1. Opens up pushing Cape and Vanta as w/w. There's a section in that case where he calls Vanta the most "miskilled person" as a reason for Cape pushing there early as partners which in hindsight is a weirdly incorrect logic given that would only apply if Vanta v so why is it w/w instead of Cape w/Vanta v?

2. Defends Maple for nai reasons to Ender.

3. Gets me to reiterate my Jan V read then move on with a "ah ok i dont see it but cool, anyways lets talk about ender and maple" because it's helpful to boost that but doesnt want the thread to actually talk about Jan any more than that.

4. Votes Lissa, votes Maple, starts pushing Rask after Rask comes into day 2 pushing him. Has the big mask off post that reads well but just boils down to "him coming at me makes him a wolf sorry bronana".

5. Shades ladd, shades ender, pushes maple, shades jan, votes maple

6. sees lissa start to bury Jan, agrees with her, becomes the 4th vote when it looks like his times up (or knows a claim is coming and he can move shortly)

7. Shades ender again for voting lissa instead of Jan

8. Calls waza/jan w/w then votes waza



Now throughout all of this time he's posting a lot in the thread and well, but it's mainly just to be viewed as villagery and have thread presence. His pushes are pretty thin overall and he backs off rask once rask backs off him. He calls waza/jan w/w and then votes waza which is a pretty solid wolf tactic for w/v (doesnt matter which goes over first you kill the second too).


In this scenario he can be wolves with lissa or maple. maybe even fun w/w theater with ender given neither of them every actually push each other he just keeps asking others abotu ender.




Honestly I don't thoroughly hate it but I think it's less likely than him villa? the Waza/Jan w/w post into a waza vote is the big drudge siren/alarm bell in my head on it but i do suppose the shift from "mask off/painted on his head" to "yeah maybe we're v/v" is also something i should squint at.


prior to reread i had lissa and visor as my top two villas but i really dont anymore. i kinda think thats ladd/rask??? which, ugh fuck me im either currently throwing or was previously throwing and neither is fun


i cant imagine not voting maple today tho after reread and hopefully that can rule out some of the extremely difficult worlds like ender + lissa or visor

[EnderWiggin]

2. I have concerns about Ender who called out Jan and Maple as w/w but then once the eod 2 happens where Jan and Maple are wagons ends up voting Lissa (who has just cased Jan extensively). However, I do feel like their posts on Maple are pretty spot on ("hardcore aggro wolfing") and I think their sequence with Visor about calling him out for being wolfy for a similar aggression to him as a recent wolfgame and then backing off when he went and found it and noticed it was different is villagery. I just struggle to see where the lissa vote came in that context so hopefully he can help me out with that and I can be ok.

I'll be honest I barely remember EOD2 and had to go back to reread it to find out what you were talking about lol.

I remember the vote on Lissa was like it felt like Jan was being yeeted 100% at that point, and I felt like Lissa had posted some stuff I found sussish towards that EOD. Jan wasn't towny to me but I had a flash of "What if Jan is dealing with the thing I do where I'm mostly afk due to irl and get sussed due to recency bias" but also it was 90% "If I make the wagons more level we might see more interesting EOD movements."

(Also sometimes I just vote against my reads to make a more tense EOD, which definitely leveraged it.)

Tbh I did not properly understand Waza was in danger until the flip happened so that's 100% my bad because I think I would've probably saved em in the moment? I thought it was still Jan or Lissa at the end and was okay with either of them.

Though that's really kinda my word for it so feel free to discard.

[EnderWiggin]

Huh. Unironically might have been Jan thought that my vote on Lissa eod meant I'd changed my tune.

[EnderWiggin]

meow meow

im gonna post tmr afternoon

I still have not seen these promised posts lol.

[EnderWiggin]

I kinda like Sunbae's ladd defense tho. Both for Ladd and for Sunbae.

If I drop my Rask defense because I don't know if I really have a good reason for it anymore it's kinda a neat little "Maple/Visor/Rask" solve.

[EnderWiggin]

Actually I should probably reread Ladd myself rather than take the word for it.

Will do that a bit later once work is cleared up.

[EnderWiggin]

I entertained a wolf!Sunbae world earlier today but ngl I'm back at town!Sunbae.

[Lissa]

3. There were multiple instances of her defending Maple against pressure that stood out to me - notably the one that actively says she liked some of Maples posts rather than just the nai defense - and once she started going on Jan she didn't stop for a while only to last second swap to Waza because visor called Jan/Waza w/w??? So one of two things occurred here: 1.) Lissa started the bus on Jan once it was becoming apparent that his time was short (and knowing he was going to give the gun to someone and might be dead anyways) so did so thoroughly and convincing where she quoted multiple Jan posts and read them as the wolfiest interpretation possible. Like 5-6 posts about it in a shortish order and reiterating it with people. Then once another avenue opened up at eod she figured why not get waza if possible. or 2.) She correctly buried a wolf and then got cold feet at eod when he came in and claimed, then voted the other wagon that wasnt someone she was defending (maple).

not really here i'm in mop classic raid (raid tells ) but wanted to clarify rq

1. my like of maples posts was p thin, basically only really brought it up as a tiebreaker over logic effectively

2. i didn't swap to waza because of the w/w read from visor nor as "cold feet", i found a chunk of his eod posting wolfy and thought it was mechanically suboptimal to go jan, i had doubts as it got closer about going waza as he kept posting but was kinda paralyzed and struggling to like be able to discuss it too b/c i was almost out of posts lol.

[Gemma]

Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0
Day 3 - Votes from post 680 through 843

Votes	Target	Voters (Posts in Phase)
3	Maple	EnderWiggin (21), Raskolnikov (23), Visor (54)
4	Not Voting	Lissa (18), Maple (2), Sunbae (29), ladd (13)

[Maple]

nyaaaa

lemme catchup

[Maple]

Aight so I'm DEFINITELY dying, but we're on 7 and there's most likely 2 wolves left, so unless we hit today or people were REALLY convinced I was clear, me dying generally reasonable. Soooooo not much for me to do about that, since I'm guessing im gonna be alone till i go to bed, and i wont be there till the morning. Sad!

Anyway, my major issue here, frankly, is the phase change being at maybe the literal most inconvenient hour for me at all possible. It sort of just is what it is. Nyaaaaa


As far as the *game* goes.

I'm concerned wrt mechfuckery wrt the Jan vigi, tho. Yall are in LyLo starting tmr if I'm understanding the situation correctly, so it IS gonna be relevant tmr.

Don't think it's Ladd. Don't think it's sunbae. Cobalt death in that way feels quite weird? Cause like whyyyy? I mean, it makes me nervous about the mechs is all. Like, Jan *presumably* made the kill?

i mean that puts me where: looking at some combination of lissa/visor and then a chance of ender. I'd have outside odd on rask. Rask can be partner with lissa or visor i think just given how uhhhhhhhhhhhhh bad things have gone for the village. meow.

chat, we're cooked. gl in f5 lmao

[Lissa]

Aight so I'm DEFINITELY dying, but we're on 7 and there's most likely 2 wolves left, so unless we hit today or people were REALLY convinced I was clear, me dying generally reasonable. Soooooo not much for me to do about that, since I'm guessing im gonna be alone till i go to bed, and i wont be there till the morning. Sad!

Anyway, my major issue here, frankly, is the phase change being at maybe the literal most inconvenient hour for me at all possible. It sort of just is what it is. Nyaaaaa


As far as the *game* goes.

I'm concerned wrt mechfuckery wrt the Jan vigi, tho. Yall are in LyLo starting tmr if I'm understanding the situation correctly, so it IS gonna be relevant tmr.

Don't think it's Ladd. Don't think it's sunbae. Cobalt death in that way feels quite weird? Cause like whyyyy? I mean, it makes me nervous about the mechs is all. Like, Jan *presumably* made the kill?

i mean that puts me where: looking at some combination of lissa/visor and then a chance of ender. I'd have outside odd on rask. Rask can be partner with lissa or visor i think just given how uhhhhhhhhhhhhh bad things have gone for the village. meow.

chat, we're cooked. gl in f5 lmao

It's def jank ngl. Eod are only a few people and flow funny as a result. Whole game flows funny lol. Activity periods are weird

Anyway im here, but i feel like so much of this game is like nobody being able to have a full conversation half the time bc of activity windows lmao

[Maple]

3 Maple EnderWiggin (21), Raskolnikov (23), Visor (54)
4 Not Voting Lissa (18), Maple (2), Sunbae (29), ladd (13)


sooooooooooooooooooo

7 alive, someone dying

5

need 3 clears outside myself, i got 2 peopel i doubt, i need +1

nya

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

if we accept the mech it isnt TOO hard, but like what are teh ODDS, ya know?

[Visor]

lemme put down some thoughts before eod, probably gonna save the rest of my posts for that

1. Raskolnikov
3. Sunbae
4. ladd
5. EnderWiggin
12. Maple
13. Lissa

Lissa: lissa is a funny one, if you look at d1 in isolation you could convince me she is a wolf - i came out pushing her a bit late d1 and early d2 in part because i don't think she really kicked on to anything - she felt like a sidelines/commentary character at that point. going into d2 i was expecting some heat there and she played in a way that is close to my heart - for the last while i have been very busy and it has been hard for me to play ww, sometimes i play a game and i just cant get a handle on it because i am not able to get invested or really absorb what people are posting. but occasionally i try to just focus in on one read that i am confident in v or w and push that because that is the only lifeline i have found that i can cling onto. sometimes i will do these things in mashes too when the game is too fast for my advanced years lol. when i saw her push on jan, i felt that kind of emotion, even if it isn't necessarily what lissa was doing, but because i have been there so many times over the last couple years that i saw myself there in what she was doing and it made me step back a bit and reconsider my push.

you could absolutely make the argument she bussed - the typical lines like one strong read, no real wavering, etc. i think (as i mentioned earlier) that holistically theres an argument for it and lissa is definitely canny enough to pull off the bus, but on an emotional level for me despite her d1, it is hard for me to get over seeing that line of play and coming away not village reading her. i think her play today has also similarly had an emotive level to it that she FEELS she is clear, particularly noting her bite back to rask earlier today. if shes a wolf shes fuckin me over like that thing game, which is unfortunate lol, but shes played well.

Maple: I have answered this one multiple times and I've reread manti a few times now trying to see something different but I just am not seeing it. I see someone who (probably?) doesn't have the time to play but it is still checking in to make posts out of a sense of obligation. I don't think that is necessarily wolfy in and of itself, but i think the fact that manti has not had.... any real reads? any real stances? i think most of their responses are some variation of omgus (either real or jokingly). I know manti can have a wide range and they can certainly play like this as both alignments but overall I just can't find the sheriff manti in there, or a spark of inspiration or anything that says even though i don't have time for the game, i still 'felt this thing'. it looks like a wolf on a team that doesn't exactly have time for the game, and their partners probably don't either.

Ender: i've talked earlier about the lines regarding w/v re shooting jan and i am doing my best generally to ignore it at this point because it is a lot of WIFOM. i think his entry d1 was poor and was (to use lazy terminology) a kind of wolfy catchup. i don't mind him being focused on me d2, i get it, if someone is pushing you like that and they're wrong (or at least you have to affect that they are wrong) it makes sense, especially with some of his lines using the kind of emotive language that felt like actual frustration in some parts towards me. he has been hard to disentangle from ladd because of how ladd handled him but i think i agree with the points sunbae made yesterday and that it is a sloppy play if w/w, but if nobody has the time, sloppy plays are sometimes all that results. regardless, i think he posted well at sod (and then not at all apparently iirc?) and answered my questions in a quick enough fashion that i have some pause here. theres a lot of thoughts about potential lines re wolf/villa. i can see the potential gambit (there's a line where wolves are something like (ladd/maple) and ender where nobody has any time and they are just doing a gambit to win). in isolation i still don't like his d1 posts, his posts about maple are okay i guess. i need to ruminate more on his d2 i think

ladd: talked about a fair bit, really hated his ender progression, felt unnatural to me (especially going from such strong wording choices), and then i think today (which is probably just my confirmation bias) i think the way he has framed his arguments and searched for things that have.... like a kernel of truth surrounded by a nugget of shit to throw to get potential heat off him. i thought d1 he actually posted p well for the most part up until the ender posts - when he said he wolf read ender i was like hot damn, maybe there is something here, and then i wake up to the flip and that was just bizarre. i don't really care about his posts re waza and i don't really know what they are expected to achieve - it kind of just feels like grasping at something to hopefully hit a convincing chord. theres a wild world where its ender/ladd and maple is just straight up punting the game but that sounds awful lol. i think that individually some of the posts he has made today has actually been ok, it is hard to weigh against a collective though.

Sunbae: sunbae is in that category of players i will usually refrain from making a strong read early on unless i actually have a strong read just because i think it clutters the thread sometimes and what use is there to saying someone is ok sometimes lol. i know ladd pointed out the jan read stuff, but if you go back and read that its not a hard defence its just him putting out there that he has a personal read on jan. when i asked him about that he couldn't even explain it. which on one hand is convenient if wolfing together lol, but on the other it doesn't provide a huge level of protection. its also a strong read to commit to so early and if you are going to go that route, i would have expected more force in the midday of d2 to push the kill into a different direction, you could've got me killed, lissa killed, maybe rask, there were other options out there to make that push on if you wanted to commit to that line, but also you can turn around at that point as well. its hard to point to a specific flaw in sunbaes posting and say that is the gotcha or thats where he slipped. i've poked and prodded around a bit but at the end of the day i just haven't found anything that tells me that sunbae is wolfing in a way i feel confident in expressing. to me i can see the progression of his thoughts throughout the game, including how he came to the rask/me reads and the ender/ladd read i thought was quite good and turned around my thinking there. similar to lissa i feel like i could make reasons for him to be a wolf, but i just don't feel like he is.

rask: man this one is tough for me. back in the day i could read rask really well, but i think we have both changed a fair bit over the last couple years and even speccing some games of rask his playstyle as both alignments has evolved a fair bit. i think his d1 is just not good - i have said this multiple times and i think the way he approached me was really wolfy. he has been weirdly super transparent since then about his thought process and indeed stepping back and trying to reassess me and turning around his read there, which i mean its all you can ask for right? if hes a villager he corrected his mistake and got to the right read with a decent progress of listening to others takes and adjusting accordingly. i feel like today i felt a struggle from him, where he was almost like a sinking sailor grasping for that life ring things, trying to find the winning line to get out of here before things get worse. that kind of feeling makes me think that everythign else aside, he might just be a villager who has just had every wrong read p much. if rask is a wolf and gets out of my grip like he did in that fucking giraffe board game imma be sad though, and i really dont want to lose to rask wolf because he will send me reminders every three months lmao. when i compare his posting to ladd and maple today he feels erratic, he feels like he doesn't have answers and i hope to god that is correct lol.

it is possible i am townreading a bus, or process over results (which isnt necessarily good for good players lol) or what ahve you, but right now i am not able to move past where i am, i have read and reread multiple times

c'est la vie, thats where i am.

[Visor]

lemme put down some thoughts before eod, probably gonna save the rest of my posts for that

1. Raskolnikov
3. Sunbae
4. ladd
5. EnderWiggin
12. Maple
13. Lissa

Lissa: lissa is a funny one, if you look at d1 in isolation you could convince me she is a wolf - i came out pushing her a bit late d1 and early d2 in part because i don't think she really kicked on to anything - she felt like a sidelines/commentary character at that point. going into d2 i was expecting some heat there and she played in a way that is close to my heart - for the last while i have been very busy and it has been hard for me to play ww, sometimes i play a game and i just cant get a handle on it because i am not able to get invested or really absorb what people are posting. but occasionally i try to just focus in on one read that i am confident in v or w and push that because that is the only lifeline i have found that i can cling onto. sometimes i will do these things in mashes too when the game is too fast for my advanced years lol. when i saw her push on jan, i felt that kind of emotion, even if it isn't necessarily what lissa was doing, but because i have been there so many times over the last couple years that i saw myself there in what she was doing and it made me step back a bit and reconsider my push.

you could absolutely make the argument she bussed - the typical lines like one strong read, no real wavering, etc. i think (as i mentioned earlier) that holistically theres an argument for it and lissa is definitely canny enough to pull off the bus, but on an emotional level for me despite her d1, it is hard for me to get over seeing that line of play and coming away not village reading her. i think her play today has also similarly had an emotive level to it that she FEELS she is clear, particularly noting her bite back to rask earlier today. if shes a wolf shes fuckin me over like that thing game, which is unfortunate lol, but shes played well.

Maple: I have answered this one multiple times and I've reread manti a few times now trying to see something different but I just am not seeing it. I see someone who (probably?) doesn't have the time to play but it is still checking in to make posts out of a sense of obligation. I don't think that is necessarily wolfy in and of itself, but i think the fact that manti has not had.... any real reads? any real stances? i think most of their responses are some variation of omgus (either real or jokingly). I know manti can have a wide range and they can certainly play like this as both alignments but overall I just can't find the sheriff manti in there, or a spark of inspiration or anything that says even though i don't have time for the game, i still 'felt this thing'. it looks like a wolf on a team that doesn't exactly have time for the game, and their partners probably don't either.

Ender: i've talked earlier about the lines regarding w/v re shooting jan and i am doing my best generally to ignore it at this point because it is a lot of WIFOM. i think his entry d1 was poor and was (to use lazy terminology) a kind of wolfy catchup. i don't mind him being focused on me d2, i get it, if someone is pushing you like that and they're wrong (or at least you have to affect that they are wrong) it makes sense, especially with some of his lines using the kind of emotive language that felt like actual frustration in some parts towards me. he has been hard to disentangle from ladd because of how ladd handled him but i think i agree with the points sunbae made yesterday and that it is a sloppy play if w/w, but if nobody has the time, sloppy plays are sometimes all that results. regardless, i think he posted well at sod (and then not at all apparently iirc?) and answered my questions in a quick enough fashion that i have some pause here. theres a lot of thoughts about potential lines re wolf/villa. i can see the potential gambit (there's a line where wolves are something like (ladd/maple) and ender where nobody has any time and they are just doing a gambit to win). in isolation i still don't like his d1 posts, his posts about maple are okay i guess. i need to ruminate more on his d2 i think

ladd: talked about a fair bit, really hated his ender progression, felt unnatural to me (especially going from such strong wording choices), and then i think today (which is probably just my confirmation bias) i think the way he has framed his arguments and searched for things that have.... like a kernel of truth surrounded by a nugget of shit to throw to get potential heat off him. i thought d1 he actually posted p well for the most part up until the ender posts - when he said he wolf read ender i was like hot damn, maybe there is something here, and then i wake up to the flip and that was just bizarre. i don't really care about his posts re waza and i don't really know what they are expected to achieve - it kind of just feels like grasping at something to hopefully hit a convincing chord. theres a wild world where its ender/ladd and maple is just straight up punting the game but that sounds awful lol. i think that individually some of the posts he has made today has actually been ok, it is hard to weigh against a collective though.

Sunbae: sunbae is in that category of players i will usually refrain from making a strong read early on unless i actually have a strong read just because i think it clutters the thread sometimes and what use is there to saying someone is ok sometimes lol. i know ladd pointed out the jan read stuff, but if you go back and read that its not a hard defence its just him putting out there that he has a personal read on jan. when i asked him about that he couldn't even explain it. which on one hand is convenient if wolfing together lol, but on the other it doesn't provide a huge level of protection. its also a strong read to commit to so early and if you are going to go that route, i would have expected more force in the midday of d2 to push the kill into a different direction, you could've got me killed, lissa killed, maybe rask, there were other options out there to make that push on if you wanted to commit to that line, but also you can turn around at that point as well. its hard to point to a specific flaw in sunbaes posting and say that is the gotcha or thats where he slipped. i've poked and prodded around a bit but at the end of the day i just haven't found anything that tells me that sunbae is wolfing in a way i feel confident in expressing. to me i can see the progression of his thoughts throughout the game, including how he came to the rask/me reads and the ender/ladd read i thought was quite good and turned around my thinking there. similar to lissa i feel like i could make reasons for him to be a wolf, but i just don't feel like he is.

rask: man this one is tough for me. back in the day i could read rask really well, but i think we have both changed a fair bit over the last couple years and even speccing some games of rask his playstyle as both alignments has evolved a fair bit. i think his d1 is just not good - i have said this multiple times and i think the way he approached me was really wolfy. he has been weirdly super transparent since then about his thought process and indeed stepping back and trying to reassess me and turning around his read there, which i mean its all you can ask for right? if hes a villager he corrected his mistake and got to the right read with a decent progress of listening to others takes and adjusting accordingly. i feel like today i felt a struggle from him, where he was almost like a sinking sailor grasping for that life ring things, trying to find the winning line to get out of here before things get worse. that kind of feeling makes me think that everythign else aside, he might just be a villager who has just had every wrong read p much. if rask is a wolf and gets out of my grip like he did in that fucking giraffe board game imma be sad though, and i really dont want to lose to rask wolf because he will send me reminders every three months lmao. when i compare his posting to ladd and maple today he feels erratic, he feels like he doesn't have answers and i hope to god that is correct lol.

it is possible i am townreading a bus, or process over results (which isnt necessarily good for good players lol) or what ahve you, but right now i am not able to move past where i am, i have read and reread multiple times

c'est la vie, thats where i am.

did anyone read this btw - idk what the point of posting my thoughts is if nobody is gonna say shit


re ladd: you literally townread sunbae d1 lol???

here i will quote your own posts for you:

I am mostly okay with all of jan,visor,cape,vanta,waza,sunbae,rask

Not that they have to be all villagers but yall seem fine enuf for now

Waza/cape/rask vvv

Jan/sunbae vv

Ender/lissa/vanta v

Logic/maple/visor w

Done i solved the game

idk sunbae seemed fine to me. ofc he could be a wolf cause gamestate hasnt really been challenging enough for a lot of people to be out of any kind of range

anything in particular worries you about him?

(the last one isn't anything super noteworthy re sunbae v read, just figured i'd add it)

sure it wasn't like LOCK TOWN or anything, but you certainly didn't seem like you had compunctions about him d1

and then you didn't even read his posts of substance d2 self admittedly lol.

i feel like every time i point out a problem with your posting

re nk:

i agree that it is likely jan carried

lissa, ender can you please talk to me about both your issues with sunbae and your non issues with ladd?

what am i missing here?

obv i am not going to actually reply because i think i have like one post left but still

[Gemma]

Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0
Day 3 - Votes from post 680 through 928

Votes	Target	Voters (Posts in Phase)
3	Maple	EnderWiggin (24), Raskolnikov (33), Visor (58)
1	Visor	ladd (33)
3	Not Voting	Lissa (50), Maple (14), Sunbae (29)

Deadline timer (7 mins)

[ladd]

sure it wasn't like LOCK TOWN or anything, but you certainly didn't seem like you had compunctions about him d1

and then you didn't even read his posts of substance d2 self admittedly lol.

I mean d1 and d3 is very different - d1 was super hard getting reads and i was mostly shooting from the hip with so little going on and no flips

Whats fine on d1 doesnt carry the same weight on d3+d3 u have jan wolf flip, etc..


(No need to answer this)

[Lissa]

i did read it

idt i responded to everything i meant to in general tbh

but i took stuff from it into account in how i thought about things

i have some concerns about ladd i'm just kinda trying to like

words are sorta hard unfortunately the entire window of time i planned to actually do stuff in this game and felt fairly clearheaded to basically got nuked (and the rest of the time i was itt for a few hours before then wasnt really thaaat much better, site wise) so i lost the thread of like a bunch of stuff i wanted to read again and say and interact with and do and bleh

particularly i took a lot of your ender thoughts into account developing my own thoughts

jfc there is 6 minutes left in day i sorta lost track of time

i get it re lack of confidence sunbae is wolfing forsure

i wanted to dig into both sunbae and ladd today much more than i did frustratingly

[Lissa]

there is a reasonnnn i said that line about like being afraid of a sunbae ladd hellworld tho lol

ladds read on you and play around you today sorta weirds me out in a few ways

[Lissa]

just frustrating i lost the whole main window i was gonna do shit today lol

whatcha gonna do ig

i think gth my villagers to win the game are raskol, visor, ender in that confidence order

mrg

[Gemma]

Turby Org Vote Counter v1.0
Day 3 - Votes from post 680 through 937

Votes	Target	Voters (Posts in Phase)
3	Maple	EnderWiggin (24), Raskolnikov (36), Visor (58)
1	Visor	ladd (35)
3	Not Voting	Lissa (53), Maple (14), Sunbae (29)

Maple dies.

[Gemma]

Maple was:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Town Vanilla
You are Town. You have no abilities. You win when all threats to Town have been eliminated.

At the time of their death, Maple had the following items:

Poisonous Bomb
You reflexively poison anyone who kills you, unless they have an Antidote.

Night 3 now, submit actions 1 hour before deadline.