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Thread: The horde

  1. #1
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    After some trials and maily slaughters at the hands of the Golden horde, I am obviously doing something wrong. Without the use of the newest units, such as the halberdiers and pikeman, how does one stop them gutting one's army?
    I was using chivalric sargents under the cover of woods (both to prevent bow fire, and to give the enemy horses a disadvantage) yet still my force was stuffed - and by no means by weight of numbers
    Does anyoine have any advice as to decent anti horse units, or is it a matter of "out horsing" them with Crusaders of my own?
    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Member Member Heraclius's Avatar
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    to defeat the Golden Horde you need a few things: lots of regular pikemen and Italian Infantry, many pavise arbalesters and good heavy cavalry. What I do is keep the Horde's cavalry at bay with my spears with my arbalesters a little bit behind firing into the Horde's troops (friendly fire is not a big issue). After a lot of this take your cavalry around their flank and charge in as many different places as you can. Oh you need one other thing: a great general and lots and lots of luck.
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    Resident Northern Irishman Member ShadesPanther's Avatar
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    this may be a cheesy tactic but it works (i dont use it because i dont capture Khazar so the GH will survive. )
    on the first encounter kill the khan then exit meaning you will lose but the gh will rebel leaving you with nice troops to bribe. "MWHAHAHAHA *cough* *cough* haha * cough*
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    Member Member lonewolf371's Avatar
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    Spearmen keep cavalry at bay, they don't rout cavalry entirely. One of your flaws may be attacking the cavalry, aka charging when they start to charge you. Well, if you're charging then it does absolutely nothing if your Spearmen are still in Hold Formation, as Hold Formation does -2 attack, a charge does +2 attack. Since not only is the Chivilric Sergeant defense better than its attack, if it stays in one spot in Hold Formation many Spearmen end up stabbing one horse. Also, if you have your Spearmen stay in one spot in Hold Formation when the Mongols charge your guys they will stop right before they land on your soldiers, negating the effects of the shock and charge. However when your own soldiers are moving, particularilly Spearmen, this does not happen and the shock goes through thus killing many of your soldiers. Also, make sure you aren't 'piling' soldiers onto one cavalry unit, instead have one unit hold the cavalry at bay (Chivilric Sergeants) and another unit charge to the rear of the enemy unit, preferably Mounted Sergeants or Chivilric Knights. That's how Spearmen are supposed to be used, as it is still possible for cavalry to rout them.

    PS-Halbs are a better at flanking cavalry, in a frontal charge the shock goes through against Halbs and it is easier to rout them with heavy cavalry, although the cavalry still take losses.

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    Corporate Hippie Member rasoforos's Avatar
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    ok my tips :

    1) try to engage in a defensive battle with them
    2) find a good high ground place to defend (this is important)
    3) use a balanced army with crossbowmen/arbs swordsmen spearmen heavy and light cavalry
    4) no matter how good it looks DONT pursue them all the way to the other side of the map if they run away. Most probably a few hundreds of troops will appear and make short work of your exhausted units ( false retreat technique)
    5) heavy cavalry charge is not that bad , what you have to fear while defendind agaisnt the mongols is those archers of theirs. make sure you have at LEAST 3 pavise crossbowmen or arbalesters in front and covering your whole army , the horse archers wont stand a chance this way.

    6( cheesy tactic that kicked ass once ) : i saw that the new mongol units were coming into the map through a forest, i placed 2 high valor (6-7) chivalric men at arms units there. The MAA would engage the mongol horsemen in the forest and of course chop them to pieces , additionally they would occupy several horse archers who could not really get a hit inside the forest)



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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Kewl - thanks for the input guys I think that my army was archer and cavalry light by the sound of it, with far too little to counter attack to get their moral down. By the sound of it, I was asking far too much of my dear spear men - I took the fact that they defend well as evidence that they would eventually win the fight, not just stand there for eternity
    I just hope that it works...
    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Long pointy sticks backed by small pointy sticks that go a distance.


    Typical army:

    7 Chivilaric Spears
    2 Arbs
    1 General
    6 Armour-piercing/ hi melee troops... Gallowglass are the best, Vikings, Woodsmen are all good. Feudal Men at arms.

    Defensive battles... form a horse shoe formation and sit, sit, sit in either woods or on a hill. The Spears on the outside the hth specialists only charge when the spears are engaged and generally only one at a time. Keep a few of the armour piercing in reserve to help a faltering line.

    Have beaten the Horde at two to one odds using this and inflicted a similar ratio of kills (typically 1:1 up to 4:1 in my favour), all on expert.



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    Member Member lonewolf371's Avatar
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    I think I also record one person fighting the horde as the Russians (not me) and he had a fair amount of Steppe Cavalry and Boyars. I'm not sure what difficulty it was on but the horde outnumbered him heavily. He, however, simply spread two units of Steppe Cavalry out and had them engage the horde front-wise. Then he had all his other cavalry circle to the rear of the horde and attack, the entire horde routed and he won.

  9. #9
    probably bored Member BDC's Avatar
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    23,000 highly trained Byzantinium veterans led by 9 star generals.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    BDC, that's the last time that I won against them - an 8 start general generally has the upper hand, and in woods never hurts
    The horde does not like pikemen, and has now started retreating without fighting, which is nice, as archers can decimate pikemen given a chance.
    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  11. #11
    probably bored Member BDC's Avatar
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    lol I never got a chance to play the main battle because there were so many people that when I tried changing reinforcements it overloaded the engine (or something) and all spazzed out.

  12. #12
    Member Member NewJeffCT's Avatar
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    What worked for me when I was the Byzantines was having several units of Treb archers & Bulgarian Brigands behind some anti-cav units. Out on the wings, I had horse archers and steppe cavalry, with my one big unit of Kats for my general. The quick shots of the archers seemed to be more effective against Mongol horse archers than the slower arbalesters. Concentrate your fire on the Khan when he first comes in… when I was fighting him, I devastated his whole unit until he ran off the board solo. He got the "eager to retreat -3 morale" vice after that. The next year, he ran away again and got "Retreats often -6 morale" and then finally that "Coward -9" the next year when he attacked and ran away again... Finally, I got sick of it and went more offensive and killed him off.

    One thing I found was to never pursue the Horde until you’re sure there are no more Mongol reinforcements coming into the picture. I just stay at the back end of the map and hold my position and repel wave after wave. I agree – you will just be worn out and faced off against rallying Mongols, and arriving Mongol reinforcements.

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    Member Member USMCNJ's Avatar
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    the way to defeat the horde is to keep them moving.
    50% of most of their armies are archers, 30% cavalry archers, and about 10% heavy cavalry and 10% infantry.
    basicly 80% of their troops are archers.
    so your army should be about 60%-70% light cavalry to keep their archer moving (you can't fire an arrow when you're running) 10%-20% spear or pike to keep their heavy cavelry in place ( you will probably lose these troops 20% heavy cavalry to kill of their infantry, flank their heavy cav.
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    Member Member deus ex machina's Avatar
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    I adopt a combo of many of the above tactics. I place spearmen/pikemen in the trees a few archers on the flanks - who quick retreat to the trees when the GH get too close - as a command base.
    On the wings I place horse archers who engage the GH as early as possible with the purpose of trying to draw off as many units as possible. If done properly, I have two groups of horse archers inflicting losses on 2-3 GH units while being chased (an hopefully not caught) around the map. Meanwhile the now reduced "core" GH unit approach my base command of tree bound spear/pike men and promptly come under missile fire. At this point, the battle depends on numerous variables, which can result in defeat - esp. at the beginning, but eventually I wear down the GH and gain a few "excellent defender" generals.

    At the end, I try to bribe the remaining GH units, which might appear a bit "gamey" to many here, but IMO, any medevial army which has suffered one loss after another is ripe for a leadership change.

    My two cents.

  15. #15
    Member Member TLRoff's Avatar
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    The last time I faced the hord (couldn't have been more then a few days ago) I was doing my march of conquest thing with the Danes... My carefully scraped together stack of Chiv K's (all 16 with 4 more in a follow up stack to fill in casualties) with 3 full stacks of vikings following them around (for garrisons in the newly "liberated" provences..the Mamlukes had got nuts earlier in the game) Everything was going hunky dory when all of a sudden THE GOLDEN HORDE... My doom was apon me and I knew it...One of the CK's had all of 4 stars.. I was gonna just let the hord win and save my army when I clicked the wrong place..loading screen..

    Yep, I was dead, I knew it.

    Battle starts..hey..I'm on a hill..a nice tall hill. Theres a thin line of forest in front of me and beyond in the distance the horde. Ok, I'm gonna loose, but I'm gonna take a good portion of the hord with me.

    I rearrange my units whil the hoard marches forward to battle. Arranging my cavalry into line 4 ranks deep, with others behind them in wedge. * in line, 8 in wedge I await. It starts raining.. The rain gets worse as does the wind. The gods are kind the infamouse archery of the horde will be nearly ineffective. The hord charges up for a few quick sharp assults to try and draw me off the hill. But not one to fall for a sucker play I sit tight.
    My armies still fresh, casualties are light, My enemy must take me on a slope, and the wind is at my back. 20 Min later the kahn of the hord comes forward to lead his army..
    I drew back my center, and sent two wedges of CK's screaming down into the face of the mongol army. I wanted to isolate the Khan. Success The bulk of the mongol army pulls back a bit to take care of the two wedges of CK's I sent down, and I pull to wedges in from the flanks to surround the Kahn. It's a bloody brawl but the Kahn goes down (Taken prisoner..but I had his throat cut on the spot.) The mongol army shatters and flees and now the circus begins. The Mongol reinforcements arrive. I pull my boys back to thier positions on the hill and sit.

    To make a long story short I sat on that hill for the entire battle shattering wave after wave after wave of mongol assult. When it was done the horde was a shattered
    shell of its former self. I took a little over 3,000 prisoners (all executed). All of my army blead, and most of them ended that battle at half strength with not less then a 4 valor. By general had a dread of 7 and his command rating shot up by 2. I had not only killed the kahn but wasted his one and only heir. when I came out of the battle the mongols were gone.

    I won because...
    1. I got lucky.. the bad weather saved me from the missle file
    2. I got Lucky again. The starting positions put me on a hill that I could back up onto if needed.
    3. I didn't over use my troops. I knew it was going to be a LONG battle, and if I wore them out to soon I'd be slaughtered.
    4. I rotated my fresh troops forward between wakes of attcks so that I didn't totally exaust my army.
    5. Last but not least.. the AI is dumb Had I been in the AI's place I would have flanked my line with heavies and not allowed the Kahn to go into battle. Againt a human player I would have been toast.

    A little luck, and fighting your fight not the other armies fight matters for alot. If I had come down off of that hill the mongols would have slaughtered me, Chiv knights or no Chiv knights.

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    AKA Leif 3000 TURBO Senior Member Leet Eriksson's Avatar
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    send a huge force that outnumbers them then autoresolve (CHEESY TACTIC)

    btw a bit off-topic,but is it really true that mongol heavy cavalry are more than a match against the chivalric knights?i always thought they are much the same like the kats or khawarizmian cavalry.
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  17. #17
    Member Member Nowake's Avatar
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    I agree, they seem to be more like Kats ... even if they have more speed; my chivs always torn them to pieces, and I'm playing on expert, so they have the +2 valour advantage.


  18. #18
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    The strategy that I found most effective was let the GH separate out then take Khazar... this splits the Horde and they are eager to retake it... just sat their with a large force of Chiv Spears, Arbs and assorted armour piercing troops with a good general.

    They came year after year trying to regroup with thier Khan.

    At Expert, using the Danes and had access to Ireland and the Gallowglass... these guys just stand them behind some spearmen, once the GH Heavies have charged in, let loose the Gallowglass and they slaughter heavy clavary ( 7 melee armour piercing is sort of nasty in that way )
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