I'm sorry guys but I don't get it.

[Ouishi]

This morning I posted a question about retraining in Shogun. I posted it here (in the Entrance Hall) because apparently I haven't got enough status to post it in the Sword Dojo (isn't one purpose of these forums to help newbie idjits like me?). In any case, the moderator moved this thread to the Sword Dojo (presumably so that it would be read by the appropriate cognoscenti) and I promptly received an answer to my question. Well, that's fine because results are what counts but, unfortunately, this response didn't solve my problem. Naturally, I now wish to respond in order to clarify the matter (i.e., is it a matter of definitions, precise moves, a bug in the game, etc.,?) but find that I cannot reply to the thread in its new location because apparently I remain trapped in some sort of underclass (I have participated in many forums and have never experienced anything like this). Moreover, when I returned to my original post in the Entrance Hall forum, there is no way to reply there either (I suppose because it has been moved). Is there no way to carry on a dialogue without starting a new thread every time I post? I realize that I am a stranger in town and I don't want to immediately begin questioning your methods but, honestly guys, I don't get it.

[KukriKhan]

Oops, my bad on that Ouishi: I didn't realize that move topic would also render it un-reply-able. In future, I'll copy/paste. Sorry my lesson came at your expense.

I've been on many forums, as well; many are now going to 'vetting' new members (esp the security and tech ones). Simple, fairly quick process here: post a few here in the Entrance Hall, we get to know you, and that you 'play well with others'(;)), then you're in. There's cussin'/discussion on this topic in a couple of the other threads here.

Again, I apologize for the screw-up with the moved thread; and welcome to the Org

[Ouishi]

Well, okay, that's fine but what do you suggest I do now? I still want to talk to the wise men about this (and a few other things as well - didn't want to cram all of my confusion in one post) but since I can't visit them at home . . . well, I don't know, should I just keep starting new threads (seems like this will clog up your plumbing pretty quickly and will I be able to get their attention from out here in the waiting room)? Or maybe I should just email one of them. What think you? And how do I get off the suspicious characters list anyway? By the way, I do appreciate the prompt replies.

[KukriKhan]

Ouishi wrote: ...should I just keep starting new threads (seems like this will clog up your plumbing pretty quickly and will I be able to get their attention from out here in the waiting room)? ...

That's the ticket. You post here (as though it were the right forum), I'll copy/paste. That'll work for now & you'll be a senior patron soon, posting universally. Thanks for your plumbing concern - I'm a fairly ruthless topic pruner; and the other mods DO visit here quite regularly.

Oh, and how's Napa? I used to visit there pretty often when I was stationed at the old Presidio of San Francisco.

[Mithrandir]

Quote[/b] (Ouishi @ Nov. 17 2002,17:17)]Well, okay, that's fine but what do you suggest I do now? I still want to talk to the wise men about this (and a few other things as well - didn't want to cram all of my confusion in one post) but since I can't visit them at home . . .

Heh finnally some recognisition (sp?) ,learn from this Kukri .

Anyway, I'll check out things here, so what didn't work ,and what was the exact order you did it in ?

I'll have a look tomorrow (sorry got exams and it's already half 1 am. ).

-Mithrandir, the wise man.

Looks good ey ?

[KukriKhan]

Yeah, you're a wise guy, alright...isn't there a Tavern somewhere that needs bartending?

[Mithrandir]

Quote[/b] (KukriKhan @ Nov. 17 2002,18:23)]Yeah, you're a wise guy, alright...isn't there a Tavern somewhere that needs bartending?

Jealous that I get beer and you get newbies? .

No offense new people , always happy to help , couldn't come up with something better .

[Ouishi]

Okay Mr. Mith, let's just do it here. As far as I can tell, I'm doing what you have described but let me nail it down a bit tighter. I've got a unit of Yari Cav that was originally 120 strong and was trained in Hitachi wherein I had improved armor and sword smithery, etc. - so it was a pretty good unit. It was, however, in a big battle in Shinano and, although we won, it got cut up pretty badly and is now down to 25 survivors. So I hopped it back to Hitachi hoping to bring it back up to strength and that's where I'm stumped. I have tried every approach I can think of. First, if you click on the unit in Hitachi (i.e., on the map) you get the following: a) You can click on it aqain (at which point it gets all swollen up and you can move it around. b) You also get the little square icon in the bottom center section and if you click on this it gets a red border and if you hold and drag you can use the little picture in the center of the square to effectively do the same sorts of things that the swollen up version does (which is to say, the chess piece on the map). By the way, I finally figured out that to get a unit into the castle you have to use this second version instead of the chess piece on the map and that it won't go in there unless you move it to juuuust the right place so that the label changes from your province to your castle. Can't seem to do this any other way. Anyway, back to retraining. Now, if you select the unit first and then go down to the bottom left section and click on the training icon, the Unit Training panel appears and takes up the whole left half of the map (I know I'm going into excruciating detail here but I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing). When it does this, the other half of the map screen above the bottom marquee goes dead. It still contains the map but you can click on it all day and nothing will happen. Also, the little square unit icon in the bottom center section disappears, so you can't grab the unit there either. Basically, opening up the training panel deselects everything else. I've tried left button clicks and right button clicks and most of the keys on the keyboard but nothing affects that map or anything on it as long as the unit traing panel is open. If you open up the training panel first, same thing. Can't get hold of anything and so can't drag anything into the training queue. I have also tried to retrain other units in other provinces. I did this mainly to see if the armor upgrades had anything to do with it and so tried retraining plain old samuri yari units and/or archers in a province with basic spear and archery dojos. No joy there either. Another related issue is that somewhere I read a reference to a retraining cost and my impression was that it was something that was listed in the unit description where all the unit bonuses and other stats are. I've never seen anything like that though. And here's another question: when a unit like my Yari Cav takes attrition like that, is its maintenance cost lowered? And how much does it cost to retrain, if anything? In any case, it's starting to seem like something is missing from my version of the game. It's the regular old Shogun (not the Warlord version), full installation, and I have applied the most recent patch (1.12, I think, but I had the same problem before and after patching). I hope all of the above makes sense. Are we talking about the same thing? Am I doing what you described? Once again, thanks in advance.

[Papewaio]

Hmm I thought retraining was not an option in the original Shoggie... can't say as I remember to well but I do remember that there is some fundamental difference between STW and STW:MI.

----

As for maintenance cost it is something like 2 koku per samurai unit and 1 koku per ashi unit.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Hi Ouishi,
Let me see if I can help. First of all has the unit you want to retrain been in the province you wish to train him for one season? If you moved that cav unit from another province into Hitachi, then you can't retrain it there till next turn.

To retrain: Click on the province, click on train unit tab to bring up the training queue. You might have to use the pointer to scroll the map to the left in case the popup window with the training queue is covering the game piece on the strategy map.
Then click on the unit game piece that you want to retrain. This will bring up the icon of that unit on the bottom of the screen. Click and drag that icon, not the game piece, into the far left square of the training queue. When you do, the cost of retraining(replacing warriors) should appear. You can retrain full units to upgrade armor and weapons at no cost. You only have to pay to replace warriors, the cost depends on how many are replaced. For example if the cost for a full unit of 100 men is 100 koku, then to replace them costs 1 koku per man. When you lose men in a unit the maintenance cost is also lowered. Also realize that when you retrain a depleted unit the honor of that unit will also go down, because unit honor is the combined average of each individual warrior. When you retrain the new warriors will have a lower honor,newbies so to speak, so their lower honor will be factored into the total unit honor and lower it. Hope this helps.

You might be right Pape, it's been awhile since I played STW, I thought the retraining units was added in the patch, but I may be wrong. Try what I suggested Ouishi and let us know if it worked for you.

[Ouishi]

Quote[/b] ]To retrain: Click on the province, click on train unit tab to bring up the training queue. You might have to use the pointer to scroll the map to the left in case the popup window with the training queue is covering the game piece on the strategy map.
Then click on the unit game piece that you want to retrain. This will bring up the icon of that unit on the bottom of the screen.

That's what I'm telling you - this doesn't happen. Once that training queue panel is up, you can click all you want on the map screen and nothing will happen, nor will anything appear at the bottom. And yes, the unit has been in the province for more than a turn. I suspect that Papwaio is correct. It's just not an option in this version. Can anyone confirm this?
Anyway, many thanks for the input.

[Hosakawa Tito]

That may be the case then Ouishi. Here is another thing to try:
You should be able to combine like units. Default unit size for Yari Cav is 60 I think right? If so to combine two partial units of Yari Cav, their total combined number can only be 59, don't know why but I do remember that, your using larger units so this should be easy. Also, and this is important, how you combine them can cause you to gain or lose any upgrades in armor or weapons.
When combining like units with different upgrades:

Drop the partial unit with no/lowest upgrade onto the partial unit with the higher upgrade. The new combined unit will all receive the higher upgrade. If you do this in reverse you will lose the higher upgrade.
So in your case, take a partial Yari Cav unit that when combined with your 25 man Yari Cav unit = less than 120 men.

If your 25 man unit has a lower upgrade than the other you will lose that higher upgrade, but if he's a high ranking general who cares right? If you do it in reverse you will lose that high ranking general I think, and you don't want to do that. Hope this helps.

[Gregoshi]

Pape is correct. The retraining feature was added with the MI/WE expansion. Ouishi, you said you had the original STW, so retraining is not available to you.

Just in case you want to read more on the subject (and to salvage the research I did ), here is a detailed discussion I dug up at the old forum: Musty old thread at the musty old forum

Target is a CA programmer and Gothmog just a gamer with a lot of knowledge.

[Papewaio]

Quote[/b] (Ouishi @ Nov. 17 2002,22:07)]

Quote[/b] ] I suspect that Pap(e)waio is correct.

I would have added this to my signature of quotes but it seems that above 300 characters is not allowed... somehow by being transferred from the previous forums it was allowed... the signature stands at over 450 characters

Would have liked to have added

You might be right Pape - Hosakawa Tito
Pape is correct - Gregoshi

I usually post with my sig when I have said something ironic/sarcastic/almost funny.

[barocca]

Pape,
email Tosa, he may be able to boost the sig levels,
i too have run into [problems with the 300 character limit

[Mithrandir]

Thank Go...Tosa for that I hate seeing posts which contain one line of content and 10 lines of signature

[Ouishi]

Many thanks for all of your input. While the problem wasn't exactly solved, at least I now know where I stand (guess I'll have to invest in the Warlord upgrade). I do have another question but believe I'll use it to start another thread (trying to creep out of the Hall, you know). Once again, thanks to you all.