These units dont seem to do much

[Exile]

Javelin throwers - on skirmish they usually run before they fire and they get wiped out if they stand and fight. The twice Ive been able to get a volley off, I've been impressed with the damage they did.

Naptha throwers - see above

Ballista - I think I killed a couple troops once or twice. I guess it has a morale factor when it hits. I love how the AI places 3-4 of these uselessy when on the attack, effectively cutting down the size of its attacking force. meh

Mounted Crossbows - slow firing rate = half the battle timer trying to 'harass' enemy into attacking

Trebuchets/Mangonels - I've read enough here to see that I am not alone on this one. They're slightly better than catapults for sieges, otherwise a catapult has every advantage.

handguns/arquebrusiers - blek. Once a handgun unit did manage to hold my line and save the battle with their sacrifice. A crossbow unit probably could have done the same, plus they might have killed more enemy units with their missile attack.

Bulgarian Brigands - Trebizond archers seem better to me plus they are available earlier and are cheaper.

Turcoman Foot - Ottoman infantry seem better to me and are easier to produce although I've seen people post how missile test results show Turcoman hit more targets. IMO the results of those tests dont show a large enough advantage to compensate for the huge amount of room the Turcoman take up in my formation.

Gendames - do they possess some special purpose/tactic?

Lithuanian Calvary - very demanding in terms of buildings needed to produce, but they are just slightly better than Hobilars IMO


Any suggestions on the advantages/how to use any of these units would be appreciated.

[Naagi]

Javelins and naptha are pretty decent if you can get them on an enemy flank. And i think their pretty good against archer types if the archers are already firing on someone else heh. Dont use artillery, or the rest for that matter cept Lithuanian cavalry. And i weren't to impressed.

Naagi

[Theodoret]

Ballistas are good for killing Royal Knights and Ghulam Body Guards. Apart from that I agree they are pretty useless.

I like mounted crossbows actually, I use them just like horse archers for similiar results. Sure, they take longer to fire, but then again they pack more of a punch when they do fire.

Trebuchets/Mangonels are far far better than the basic catapult for sieges simply due to their longer range. As battlefield artillery they are next to useless.

Javelin throwers are awesome. They are perhaps the most powerful missile troops, thank god the range is so short. Jinettes will make mince meat of armoured foot troops. I haven't really got the hang of Murabitin though.

Apart from that I agree. The AI seems to use naptha throwers quite well, but I can never manage to do anything good with them. Gunpowder units are just a gimmick, but then again they were poor in Shogun. Lithuanian cavalry would be good if they didn't require so many buildings. As for Gendarmes, why have them when you could have Chivalric Knights?

[rasoforos]

about naptha throwers : positioning is very important for this unit , most of the times they tend to be useless but if the flank an enemy or if you are defending a bridge and they mingle with your first line and target behing the enemies first line ( and range is sufficient) then they make serious damage. i think i once killed 200 people in a bridge with em.

[ToranagaSama]

Well, as I haven't used most of the units above to any real degree, I would suggest as with all things in MTW, they need to used properly to be effective. Save the ballista

I've seen the AI make great use of Napa Throwers

Also, I can personally attest to the effectiveness of the Mounted Crossbows. The are VERY effective, used to guard your rear flanks. That is keeping your General from being overrun by enemy Cav attempting to flank and get behind your lines.

Don't have enough troops to guard your flanks? Take a unit of Mounted Crossbows and place them in the middle of your rear, then run them back and forth, left to right, to meet any attempt at flanking; or

Outnumbered and need to guard your flanks, but your going to be a little busy Take a couple of units of Mounted (or unmounted) crossbows and place them (properly) on your rear flanks, set them to auto-fire.

In both cases, they will STOP a charge of knights

In my present Campaign, for the first time I have the building necessary to build Lithuian Cav, so I'll see how they do.

[Hold Steady]

Hi,

A bit confused here.. You said you were impressed with them javelin-throwers, but still u have questions about their use?
I'm very happy with Kerns or Jinettes, now that I got the hang of it. And they work perfectly well when attacking the front, no need to attack from flank. They can severly decrease the advancing unit, just keep an infantry unit at the ready to secure the kerns or whatever, since they're not great fighters..

About Lithounian cavalry, I'm currently yanking everything up in my Russian campaign to build them.. Are they supposed to be a match for mounted knights or can I write that off?

[Alrowan]

Javelin throwers - useful in enemy flanks, i use kearns quite a bit in SP, though in MP larger battles tend to make them useless

Naptha throwers - great if you can get into thier flanks

Ballista - not so good, but can be quite effective if one has 3-4 at one target, though id prefer to spend cash on other units

Mounted Crossbows - excellent for those who can get them in early era. has the longest range and power till 1200

Trebuchets/Mangonels - have range over cats, can save you against bigger castles

handguns/arquebrusiers - just talk to Elmo about these, his all gunner army is infamous

Bulgarian Brigands - for poland and for Russia, these are vital in early MP battles

Turcoman Foot - average at best, i tend to avoid them only du to lower morale than other archers

Gendames - silly things in my opinion, but ive never used them

Lithuanian Calvary - these give some much needed options to any Russian army in SP

[alby]

crossbows and handguns imho are only good when on the defence and mixed with archers

you k the crack ....archers cut down the initial assault, weakening the enemy then when they keep comin back for more the crossbows etc tend to make em want to run tyhen its cav time hehe

i prefer archer arbelester mix meself they got longer range :0

[A.Saturnus]

Javelins should be used without skirmishing mode. Get close to the enemy throw them and engage (or run away as fast as you can)
In melee, handgunners are far better than crossbows, see them as a medium infantry. Plus they cause fear when firing.
Gendarms? Don`t know, aren`t they cheaper than chiv Knights? Maybe they`re a cheap heavy cav. Gothic knights are definitely better.

[Exile]

Great tips so far. I'd really like to use some javelin troops & naptha throwers efectively and now I have some ideas to try. Thnx.

Hold Steady - Lith. calvary are light calvary, knights will crush them. Lith are not much superior to Steppe Calvary. They are good for screening, flanking attacks and chasing down routing enemies. The requirements to produce them seem very heavy for such a unit. I was dissappointed. Regarding javelins - what I meant was I tried to use them many times, usually was unsuccessful at getting off a volley which hit anything. Only twice it worked and the damage was impressive, but not worth many failed attempts.

The Russians are the only faction besides the Almohads that I haven't tried, so perhaps the Lith. calvary and Bulgarian Brigands (i'd use pavise arbablester instead) are useful to the Russians.

A.Saturnus - Gendames cost 400, comparable to Fuedal Knights at 475. Gendames have weaker melee rating & charge, but better armor. meh.

I think I am convinced of the benefits of mounted crossbows in the early era. I just need to use them differently than I use horse archers. MCs will be part of my formation instead of harrassing units out on their own. On expert setting, I've never seen any missile unit stop charging knights...but I'll try it

I've been auto calcing castle assaults lately, so the range benefits of Trebuchets and Mangonels were lost on me. Maybe I'll try playing out a few castle assaults again. I'd like to see Elmo's all gunner army in action, are there any MP replays saved here?

A side story - recently as the Byz, I put naptha throwers in front of my byz infantry in a defensive formation. They launched at an approachig unit of Saracens which my archers had whittled down to about 60 men. I think over 20 of the Saracens died from the naptha strike and they ran away like school girls Then our lines engaged (i was heavily outnumbered) and my naptha throwers threw their next volley into the rear of my Pronoi, killing about 6 of them and 1 or 2 enemy saracens I think.. This is the closest I've come to success with naptha throwers. but they are an interesting unit and I look forward to figuring them out (particularly trying them on a bridge defence), with the membership's advice

[kaaskop]

Naptha throwers - Well they can wreak havoc but consider this : you need to position them at an exposed side of a
preff engaged unit ,but supose you had an cav unit in that position ? plus 9 out of 10 my naptha's are engeded by inf and get killed without doing anything

Ballista - Pffff

Mounted Crossbows - a lot better then horse archers since you can commit these as flankers if necesary (of course not against heavy's)

Trebuchets/Mangonels - Pffff

handguns/arquebrusiers - I sometimes bring a unit along in mp since as ranged unit they are cheap to upgrade and can slug it out against most other units due to better upgrades ....oh and they have guns too ,don't use em in sp


Bulgarian Brigands - same here cheap upgrade in mp, trebuzoids are better but for non byz they can be usefull

Turcoman Foot - never tried these the turks simply have better substitudes

Gendames - same cost as a val 1 alan cav and beats it in melee but alan is faster and has higher charge, see it as
an economic solution and they are better then katapraktoi

Lithuanian Calvary - too much buildings requirerd but in cost/ability ratio pretty decent , since they cost 225 they are in no way equel to knights

javelins - as i have been saying earlier archers and skirmishers get discount in mp for example : murabitin inf
and militia sergeants both cost 150 at val 0 , now at val 4
murabitin costs about 650fl and militia sergeants 1253fl.
so you don't have to be a genious to figure out that this is usefull.In sp this doesn't aply of course and therefor i hardly use then since i can always use a good melee unit instead

[y2kBug]

Naptha Throwers are pretty good if you keep 'em steady. Take them off skirmish -- make them hold their position until the enemy group is w/in range. Have 'em cut loose and then fall back the the next position where you want to set up your 'attack'. Basically, its the same tactic the archers use, but you have to micromanage the Naptha unit in order to be effective.

Greets to all

[Husar]

I haven´t tried all of these troops, but Turcoman foot is a very good medium infantry for the Turks in the early years.
I used them extensively and found out that they are very good against medium and light infantry as well as archers, but don´t use them against heavy infantry and heavy cavalry, because then they will run

[Kraxis]

Javelins: Ahhh... hard to use, but the rewards are worth it. First you need to have them out of Skirmish, then you need to support them as they are not fighters. Never try to throw at enemies advancing on them, you will either get killed in melee or the javelins will fall behind the enemy.
An easy way to use them is when the enemy has engaged your men. You will lose a few men yourself but the enemy will lose more.

Turcoman Foot: The archers of the game, there is no substitute for these guys. I have in MP managed to defeat enemy Pavise Arbs with them (equal numbers), and no it wasn't in melee. Think of the large footprint as a blessing when it comes to ranged combat. Ottomans will simply get slaughtered in comparison. Also, if the Turcomans have a few Morale and Armour upgrades you can be sure they can fight for a long time in melee, they won't kill much but they will last long enough for the help to arrive. I have used these to great effect in conjunction with Jannisary Infantry, let the Turcomans soak up enemy missiles and charges, then rush in the JI and beat the enemy.

Mounted Crossbows: The only way to get crossbows in Early. Also, they hit hard if you wait until the enemy is close. Then retreat away. They are fast so not many units can catch them.

Naphtas: Hard to use them as they are so dangerous to own troops. Can't be used when the enemy is engaged sadly. The AI is really good with them. You need to find a slow or large enemy and throw at him from the flank...

Bulgarian Brigands: Trebz are better due to their attack and Morale, but the BB are fast and have better defence. Good at moving around on the flanks, but it is hard to use them well in MP.

[lancer63]

I don´t know about how effective naphta throwers can be. I never use them and always kill them from afar or run them down.
Lith. Cav. takes forever to get so I use them as mercs instead of wait for my own units, they're great help in early.
Mounted X-bows are excellent flankers and replace spent foot archers and x-bows when out of ammo.
The only time I got gendarmes I was Spain and already had lancers which are the best heavy cav. imho. so I can´t rate them.
Ballistas are annoying when the AI uses them, I hate the twannngg sound they make. And almost useless in my hands but they have killed a couple of generals for me.
Turcoman foot I only had as mercs and ran like rabbits at the first sight of ghazi inf.

[HopAlongBunny]

One thing I don't see mentioned here.

There is a javelin guide around here somewhere; one thing I remember from it is you can mix your spears with murbatin inf: set them to engage at will and let them throw in safety at oncoming or engaged units...works quite nicely

[ToranagaSama]

Quote[/b] (Exile @ Jan. 07 2003,11:28)]I think I am convinced of the benefits of mounted crossbows in the early era. I just need to use them differently than I use horse archers. MCs will be part of my formation instead of harrassing units out on their own. On expert setting, I've never seen any missile unit stop charging knights...but I'll try it

Oh Ahhh....did I forget to mention that my experience with them has been on Hard and below? Sorry...hehehe.

Haven't had the opportunity to use them on Expert yet.

[and another thing....]

handguns/arquebrusiers - blek. Once a handgun unit did manage to hold my line and save the battle with their sacrifice. A crossbow unit probably could have done the same, plus they might have killed more enemy units with their missile attack.

On easy/normal setting I`ve set my arquebusiers in a line 3 deep and set them to hold position and put a unit of spearmen or pikemen right behind them. They`ve done quite well as for some reason the enemy seems to halt and form up for an assault - whilst doing that the arq seem to be steadily making holes in their ranks so they can on reforming until eventually break and run away.

On the attack though, I can`t get them to do much at all (apart from die&#33

[Vertigo10]

Oooo, I love arquebisers. Three line formation lets you do an almost-continuous fire (one line shoots, goes to back, next line shoots, repeat), or you can have a one-or-two line formation for a massive volley.

-Trebuchets/Mangonels - While not quite as flexible as catapults, with good placement, they can decimate an enemy army before they even touch your units.

-Bulgarian Brigands - I tend to use both Trebizonds and BBs. The Bulgarians, while with a lower attack and morale, have stronger defensive abilities, as well as a faster run speed.

-Jav/Naptha Throwers - these guys are some of my favourite units in the game, really. You just have to be careful with their positioning. Any stray enemy cav will go for them as soon as they notice you on the flanks. However, Naptha throwers tend to hurt some of your units too (due to their inaccurate throws), so be careful.

-Ballista - Uh....um....lemme think about that one. Can't think of anything good about em yet.

Mounted Crossbowmen - Well, harassing the enemy is always a good way to draw the enemy off their hill on defense. Just make sure you don't pit them against enemy foot archers, or they're screwed.

-Turcoman Foot Soldiers - There are a couple reasons to go with Turcoman over the Ottomans. One, they have a higher defense (3 to 1), higher armour value (4 to 3) and a faster run speed (12 to 13). However Ottomans' attack is armour piercing and is 1 (compared to Turcoman's -1), charge is better (2 to 1), and morale is better (0 to -1). So, judge what values you want better and use them wisely. In general, Turcoman are better on defense, while ottomans are good attackers.

Lith Cav -- Wha--? Their defense is two better, armour value is two better, and they have a large shield, as opposed to none. They're definitely better than hobilars, IMO.

-Vert

[Gregoshi]

Hail and welcome to kaaskop and Husar. Thanks for being here and sharing your thoughts on these units.

Here's my take this subject: good or bad, build them anyway. These units existed because at the time somebody thought they were a good idea. Progress is built upon failure. The game doesn't simulate this, but you can. Build some of the failed unit types as well as those great units. Don't play the game system (abc has +2 better attack than xyz), play the situation and history.

P.S. y2kBug, you're late. See the other thread...

[Exile]

Quote[/b] (HopAlongBunny @ Jan. 07 2003,14:09)]One thing I don't see mentioned here.

There is a javelin guide around here somewhere; one thing I remember from it is you can mix your spears with murbatin inf: set them to engage at will and let them throw in safety at oncoming or engaged units...works quite nicely

This sounded promising, so I checked it outwith some custom battles. I couldn't actually get my troops to mingle, one would always march to an open area, even on hold formation. So I lined my Murabitin up behind my front line and took them off skirmish mode. I had them fire into the melee. Friendly fire loses were few/none.

I fought two battles and unfortunately the AI retreated after a few minutes, but I did get to see the Murabitin in action. In the battles, a well employed Murabitin would get about 20 kills, which was as good as any unit I had out there and better than the archers. I was able to hold off a unit of Kata and Pronoi with one AUM backed up by one Murabitin unit. The two heavy calvary units were quickly reduced to 2 men and 10 men respectively.

I was not able to duplicate this result with Jinettes. I imagine they're better flanking units and the custom battle I tried them in was over too quick to see what they could do plus they end up in melee with Fuedal Sargeats. Kerns I cant figure out how to get on a custom battle, but I imagine they would work like the Murabitin.

I am going to experiment with naptha throwers next, particularly on brindge defense.

BTW - searched for javelin in topics or javelin AND guide dont come up with anything. I'd be quite interested in seeing that javelin guide.

[A.Saturnus]

Did someone play Kalka river, the first battle of the Mongol campaign? You have 60-men-naptha-thrower-units there. The enemy comes with huge units of foot knights. One volley and this foot knights run (if some of them survive). I tell you, were naptha throwers in bigger numbers, they would kill everything

[Kraxis]

Exile, to use Kerns try the English in High or Late when they are in control of Ireland. Custom games reflects the positioning of the lands. So if you want Highlanders in Custom or MP then you must add Scotland to England and bing You have Highlanders. Of course in MP the other players need to play with your mod.

[Foreign Devil]

There is almost nothing as delightful as watching naptha explode in the middle of an enemy formation. I often go out of my way to use them, just to see the cool effects

I also use Bulgarian Brigands as mercs when I play in early as a Christian faction- they are much better then basic archers.

[HopAlongBunny]

Quote[/b] (Exile @ Jan. 08 2003,08:22)]BTW - searched for javelin in topics or javelin AND guide dont come up with anything. I'd be quite interested in seeing that javelin guide.

Can't remember what it was called actually It was posted a while ago and most of the points seem covered in this topic.

I think the most useful advice is taking them off skirmish; requires some micro-management but at least they get to fire Try Jinettes from flank or rear on an engaged unit; their speed allows you to position them quickly and escape when enemy units come to help out. I often use them against Royals the AI loves to use as flankers-wrap them up with another unit and let the Jinettes throw at their leisure...very slow reload time btw

Found it /em dances happily

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....avelins

thanks again for the guide Kraxis