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Thread: helmsdeep and medieval war

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    Member Member mattep74's Avatar
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    In the final moments of the battle for helms deep in TOT the besieged men inside the keep ride out for one last ride. Isnt it amazing how far they get. The horses act more like tanks blitzkrieging than horses in attack. When a cavallery attack is done in any total war game the attackers loose momentum when they impact with the footsoldiers. In the movie they went downhill on the small ramp after crossing the courtyard, imho they shouldn have gotten that far before beeing stoped by all orchs and thrown of the horses.

    I want my archers in the game to be as precise as the elves, one hit every time sounds good:)

    orchs should learn some tactics also, why not climb on top of the mountain and throw rocks on the men holding the fortress, it was in a wery bad place

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    Member Member Knight_Yellow's Avatar
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    well if ther orcs did that then evil would win and the fellow ship die and wede no live happily ever after.

    British Army: be the best

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    Member Member SmokWawelski's Avatar
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    Yeh, but do not forget that Gandalf was riding along...

    Have you seen the charge of LongShank's knights into the Wallace's clansman in the Braveheart, and the way they stopped on the pikes?

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    Member Member eXoMagus's Avatar
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    ya Wawelski that scene was just brutally well directed, all those cavalry just all flipped and got wasted by the primitive and untrained Scottish soldiers they thought the Scottish were.

    And speaking about the siege, if it was actually more realistic, Gandalf would've needed more than those mere 2 thousand men (I think it was around this number) to flank the entire Uruk-hai's army.

    It's just like getting Armenian Heavy Calvary to flank a whole bunch of Swiss Armoured Pikemen. Apparently, Gandalf and those other Rohan riders he gathered should've been wasted really badly when they were charging downhill towards the pikes, and according to his story, it was because of the light Gandalf was radiating that made the Uruk-hai like semi-blind and couldn't hold their pikes up or something... I'd say that Tolkien needs to learn some battle logic hehe

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    Member Member mattep74's Avatar
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    I have seen Braveheart and the battle were the nights were piked is historicly incorrect. I have read about that battle and it took place on a bridge. Bridges are a menace in MTW, but they are even harder to cross against an enemy in shogun total war. Why? Because in STW there is often only one bridge and your opponent has lots of archers

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    warning- plot loss in progress Senior Member barocca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (mattep74 @ Jan. 14 2003,16:43)]I have seen Braveheart and the battle were the nights were piked is historicly incorrect. I have read about that battle and it took place on a bridge. Bridges are a menace in MTW, but they are even harder to cross against an enemy in shogun total war. Why? Because in STW there is often only one bridge and your opponent has lots of archers
    Read Again...

    ...and by dawn of the day the English began to cross the bridge; Wallace heard the tidings with joy.

    When one-half of the Englishmen were over, Wallace advanced, having previously having sent a strong detachment to hold the ford referred to.
    The moment the Scots began to move, Sir Marmaduke Twenge, a knight belonging to the North Riding of Yorkshire, who, together with de Cressingham, led the vanguard of horse, displayed the Royal Standard amid loud cries of For God and St. George of England and at the head of the heavily mailed horse made a furious charge up the slope upon the Scottish infantry, while the (scottish) archers kept shooting fast and surely from the rear, and caused the English forces to waver and recoil.

    The battle tested Scots of Wallace's made a foil downhill charge towards the bridge; while in the meantime a masterly movement was executed by Sir Andrew de Moray, who by a quick detour got in between it and those who had already crossed the river, completely cutting off their retreat. Confusion ensued on the part of the English, and discipline was lost. Wallace, as soon as he saw the movement for intercepting their retreat achieved, pressed on with greater force.

    The half-formed columns of the English on the north bank of the river gave way, and many of the heavy-armed cavalry were driven into the river and drowned.

    Surrey, sought to retrieve the fortune of the day by sending across, at a moment when the bridge was open, a strong reinforcement with his own banner; but, unable to form amid the recoiling masses of their own infantry, they only added to the confusion and slaughter, being assailed on every side by Scottish spearmen (probably schiltrons).

    The schiltrons, (prounounced skil-trons) are agreed by most historians to have been first used successfully at Falkirk, not at Stirling. But it is likely that the units, untrained as yet, were already in existence to use against the overwhelming numbers of English mounted warriors and knights. The basic schiltron was a mass of Scottish spearmen, three rows of spearmen deep, wielding unusually long 12 foot spears in tight formations such as oval rings or box shaped infantry units. The oncoming charge of the heavy or light cavalry would not be able to break the tightly packed ranks of spearmen and the horses were usually impaled by the spears. Before long the knight was pulled easily from his mount and slaughtered by the Scots on the battlefield. This ingenious invention is credited to William Wallace himself.

    At the moment Surrey's reinforcement was on the bridge, it parted and crashed into the Forth under the weight and strain of battle. This collapse, of which their are several versions, was a catastrophe to the English, together with the passage of the river by a body of Scots at the ford, when they fell on Surrey's rear, decided the victory for the Scots. A large number of English were drowned in attempting to cross the stream.

    The treacherous Scottish barons who served in Surrey's ranks -- one of whom was the Earl of Lennox -- now threw off the mask, and, with their followers, joined in the pursuit, when the flight became, as usual in those days, a scene of barbarous slaughter. It was common for the winning force to try to ride down as many retreating enemy soilders as possible and to put them to the sword. What we would often think of as chivalrous knightly warfare, was in actuality, some of the most brutal and bloody hand to hand combat ever practised to a high art by men of any era.

    Surrey, after making a final attempt to rally his beaten soldiers in the Torwood, on being assailed by Wallace again, resumed his flight to Berwick, and thence sent to his master the news of his humiliating defeat.

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    Member Member Coldstream's Avatar
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    I saw something about the movie on the History Channel. They had wanted to do Stirling bridge but it would have broken the budget of the movie. It's a shame, but oh well, what can you do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (eXoMagus @ Jan. 14 2003,14:53)]It's just like getting Armenian Heavy Calvary to flank a whole bunch of Swiss Armoured Pikemen. Apparently, Gandalf and those other Rohan riders he gathered should've been wasted really badly when they were charging downhill towards the pikes, and according to his story, it was because of the light Gandalf was radiating that made the Uruk-hai like semi-blind and couldn't hold their pikes up or something... I'd say that Tolkien needs to learn some battle logic hehe
    if i remember the book correctly the orcs got scared by the approach of Huorns (walking trees) like a dense black shadow - there were thosands of them all approaching the rear of the orc army with great speed.

    while the castle sally and gandalfs riders did some damage it was the Huorn army that destroyed the orcs and scared the sh**T out of them. the fact they were so rattled made gandalfs charge effective.

    the Huorn do not feature at all in the movie. which is a shame but i guess they couldnt fit in everything.

    PS im not talking about ents. ents are the sheppards of the Huorns and regular trees. Hureons are speculated to be old ents who stopped moving and became tree like over hundreds of years. they have black hearts and only true ents could command them.

    in the book the true ents destroy isengard while the Huorn are sent to help in the battle with the orcs.



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    Member Member eXoMagus's Avatar
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    ah yes I forgot about that Romulus, it's been a long time since I've read the 2nd book and being the slow reader I am I kept on sleeping every while and then so I dun have the best memory of what happened in the book hehe

    but newayz, when I saw the movie, I thought Gandalf would've been wasted for sure right when it shows the orcs lining up with their pikes

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (eXoMagus @ Jan. 14 2003,21:53)]ah yes I forgot about that Romulus, it's been a long time since I've read the 2nd book and being the slow reader I am I kept on sleeping every while and then so I dun have the best memory of what happened in the book hehe

    but newayz, when I saw the movie, I thought Gandalf would've been wasted for sure right when it shows the orcs lining up with their pikes
    yeah i agree with you.
    In the movie alot of the battle for helms deep
    is pretty farsical from a real battle perspective.

    the book version is not exactly what i would call a realistic description of battle realities but its better than the movie.

    although i have to say i did enjoy watching the movie.

    PS. sorry for OT mods.
    Lord Romulous

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  11. #11
    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    LR, there really is no such thing as OT in the Entrance Hall. Just about anything is fair game as this is the only forum Junior Patrons can post in.

    I've posted at great length in the Tavern as to how Theoden's charge did not get cut down like everyone seems to think it should have. Here's the short version (I hope):

    1) Orcs are pretty stupid and individualistic - the strong rule the weak. You can't expect them to act as professional soldiers.

    2) Heroes in Tolkien's Middle Earth have an aura of awe and terror when aroused for battle. Tolkien never labels this aura, but it does appear in the descriptions of battle. Of Gandalf's charge at Helms Deep in the book:

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]
    The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness. The wild men fell on their faces before him. The Orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear.
    Aragorn, Gandalf, Theoden, Elrond, etc. all have this aura. The orcs were too terrified (and stupid) to cut down the horses. It is difficult to show this aura in a movie.
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    Member Member eXoMagus's Avatar
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    Aaah yeah the aura.

    But one point there Gregoshi, you mustn't forget that these are not simple orcs, but the Uruk-hai, personally perfected by Saruman himself (well I can't say they're that good but at least they're way better than normal orcs)

    and just my opinion for the movie for the Battle of Helm's Deep, I find it pretty sad how slow the Uruk-hai's ways of siege tactics... I mean, if you already know you're goin' to besiege a fort, why not bring some trebuchet or catapult of some sort (if they can pull trees down, artillery should be piece of cake)? And they should've used more of those gunpowder. Should've just sent like 10 doods rushing into the center fort to blow everything up... After all, they're there to destroy the world of men right? So why not finish quick and slick? But of course if they had done that then there would be no story to tell hehe

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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    To the Mr. ED Show theme song

    An orc is an orc, of course, of course.
    And no one's as dumb as an orc of course.
    That is, of course, unless the orcs are the fighting Uruk-hai.

    Go right to the source and ask an orc
    A hack at your neck will be his retort.
    To take Helms Deep is for fun and sport to the fighting Uruk-hai.

    Saruman goes yakety-yak to them and wastes his time away,
    But the Uruk-hai will never think when they have something to slay...

    Sorry.

    Saruman's orcs pulled down those trees with ropes. How does that translate to trebuchet? Also, how common is gunpowder in Middle Earth? Maybe Saruman used it all for that one bomb. BTW, the book never does say how the hole is opened in the wall at Helms Deep. This is one area where I liked how the animated LotR breeched the wall - with fireballs cast from the Orthanc. I guess Jackson wanted to show Saruman shifting from magic to technology.
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    Member Member Coldstream's Avatar
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    Angry

    I really don't understand the nearly rabid fanbase that these movies carry. I saw them both and was impressed neither time. From the short snippets, I can see why the books are so popular as they well written, but the movies really do threaten to lull me to sleep.

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    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Well, some people find golf exciting to watch on TV. There's all kinds in this world, and you're one of them...eh, so am I, come to think of it.
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  16. #16
    Member Member SmokWawelski's Avatar
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    Yes, the LotR is a unique document of unusual events. The aura, which can be attributed as a factor in many events had to be why the flanking charge was a success. After all, Gandalf was the guy who was even able to scare enormously his friends, fight the Balrok, and resist the one ring. I would ride along him into anything, even Swiss armored pikeman

    As far as movie goes, there had to be some changes made to the story, as movie uses different medium and way of influencing emotions than a book. I love the book, yet am not complaining about the movie. It is merely a different take at the same, old story that we all know very well...

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