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Thread: Let's Get Right Down To It

  1. #1
    Member Member Draa's Avatar
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    Feb 2003
    Detroit, MI, USA

    Thumbs up

    First off, thank you for taking the time to read this post. I've been lurk-lurk-lurking these boards for a very long time and I only just recently decided to join. I've been playing Shogun since release and I've just recently gotten into Medieval.

    I can consistantly whip the AI's arse in battle, but I'm usually beaten by real players. I expect defeat every time I log on. I'll tell you what I think makes me a bad player.

    I have zero patience when it comes to the skirmishing part of the battle. I'm so impatient with simply taking potshots at one another. It seems there's really no way to circumvent the skirmishing part of the battle (especially in multiplayer). Any general worth his salt will have spearmen behind his ranged units and that negates a cavalry rush to end the skirmishing. It only makes it worse if your enemy loads up on gunpowder units (I tend to never take gunpowder units. I don't like 'em I know it's not a good tactical decision, though.)

    I just don't know how to handle myself during online battles. I don't have much patience for skirmishing. I truly believe this is where my fault lies.


  2. #2
    For England and St.George Senior Member ShadesWolf's Avatar
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    Aug 2001
    Staffordshire, England


    Are you a member of any clans ?
    Where you in a clan in Shogun ?
    Do you have any friends that play the game ?

    Skirmishing is a important part of the game, as range weapon run out of ammo, all that is left is skirmishing....

    Cav rush's can still be used against ranged, but you have to get behind the units.....

    I also dont like guns, but I also dont like Pavise Arb's.... In my opinion the Pavise makes it impossible for me 2 use anything except an equal unit, which makes the game boring......

    I must prefer ti reinact proper historical battles, and try and use tactics instead of SELECTING THE BEST ONLINE ARMY

    Im a Wolves fan, get me out of here......

  3. #3


    Hi Draa,

    I think there is a MP game here for you, but I agree that some patience is required to play at a high level. There are basically two styles of MP play: shoot then rush or rush. If you plan to shoot, then the pav arb is necessary whether you hope to win the shootout or just exhaust the opponent's ammo. The thing I like about MTW is that the pav arb alone can't win the battle unless you have a lot of them, and, if you have a lot of them, you will certainly loose to a rush. The pav arb is actually weak in terms of kills/volley, and it's more the difficulty of making a successful rush that leads to the shootouts. After the shootout, you still have to close for hand-to-hand combat. I think the difficulty in attacking stems from fatigue and how long units fight. A strightahead rush is going to be held up and flanked by a good defender, and that flanking will defeat the rush. After one side routs, there is usually a second phase of hand-to-hand after regrouping, but the winner is usually the player who won the first round of hth. Now the shoot 'n rush game will take anywhere from 15 min to 45 min to play out. If you brought shooters you really have to play these phases out unless your opponent makes a positional error and gives you an opportunity to attack.

    That brings me to the rush game. The thing to do here is not bring any shooters or maybe only a couple to support the attack. Some players use all cav, but to me the infantry rush with cav flanking is more difficult to stop. The cav can also make a stab at the enemy ranged units to disrupt their firing while the infantry advances across no man's land. There are also all infantry rushes that are very hard to stop. The key to rushing is to attack the enemy from a direction that makes him move his army and allows you to get a flank, to quickly get advantageous unit matchups like swords on spears and use the faster killing units in the right places. The best players also try to use the edge of the map to cover one of their flanks. Speed is important here, but breaking into a run too soon is costly in terms of fatigue. One problem the rusher faces in something like 15k florin game is that the florins saved by not buying 4 pav arbs doesn't buy you much in terms of a hth unit. Maybe a couple of inexpensive cav chasers is a good way of making up for that. You might try the Turks. They don't have pav arbs, but they have some nice infantry such as the outstanding janissary heavy inf, and the regular janissary inf are combo archer/hth inf with excellent hth capability with upgrades.

    In a team game, you really have to play in the style of your allies. If one guy on the team rushes and the other guys are going for the shootout, it's not going to work very well as a team effort. Likewise, if the team wants to rush, then it's best if all participate in that and bring suitable armies. Very often, one flank conducts a holding strategy while the attack proceeds on the opposite flank. You can often get involved in that even if you are on the flank conducting the hold by sending cav assistance to the attacking wing. A staged echelon attack works very well here if the first attacker is a very good rusher or gets help from his allies. I've shown up with shooting armies only to find that the plan is to attack, so I do my best and sometimes the shooters come into play later on in the battle.

    Patience is an attribute in these battles especially if you have to wait for allies to get into position, and lack of it makes your actions more predictable to the enemy. Often in team games, a delayed attack is more effective if the army you are shadowing has to turn to face a flank threat from one of your allies. Likewise, you can sometimes take the lead and be that flank threat if you have the position and attacking ability. I really think the shootouts are more of a player choice than something that is being forced by the ranged units. I know that when I bring 4 arbs and I get rushed those arbs get very few kills. I'm talking 5 to 10 each at most. It's not the arbs that are winning in those cases, and it's quite possible that these 4 arb armies flatout loose to a well conducted attack by an all hth army. The arbs simply give me the tactical option to hang back if I want to at the risk of not being able to handle a rush. Without them I'm commited to a rush strategy, and I prefer to be more flexible than that.

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  4. #4
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Jan 2003
    In average 2000m above sea level.


    great post puzz3d

    *just wanted to say it*

  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member Cheetah's Avatar
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    Dec 2001


    Welcome to the ORG Draa

    Patience is your best ally. (I wonder whether a young and impetous elf reads this thread ) As Yuuki said pavise give you tactical flexibility. If you dont have pavise you are forced to rush, which might not be a good idea especially in team battles in which your allies have some different idea in mind. I personally do not like pavise that much, but I always bring just enough to be able to hold my own for a bit, which basically gives time both for me and for my allies to manouvre into some advantegous position. If you don not have pavise you can only manouvre backwards which is not always a good idea (you might lose a favourbale ridge or hill) and not always possible. So fighting the skirmish battle is more about manouvering and seizing certain features on the map (hills, forest) rather than killing the enemy troops (because even if you kill 50-60 with your pavise most of these kills are other pavise and not meele troops). It follows, that if you dont have pavise or dont like the skirmishing phase then you basicaly give up manouvering and deny yourself the possibility to find a favourable position for your amry. All in all, skirmishing might be boring but IMHO it is something necessary.

    BTW, the best way to learn skirmishing and the rest is to find some experienced players and play with them as much as possible, after a while you might even consider to join a clan, but first play as much team battles as you can
    Lional of Cornwall
    proud member of the Round Table Knights
    Death before dishonour.

    "If you wish to weaken the enemy's sword, move first, fly in and cut!" - Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei

  6. #6
    Member Member Arn de Gothia's Avatar
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    Feb 2003
    Grefsen, Oslo, N O R W A Y


    Agrees with Kadagar the Attacking Viking...

    >>--->Draa You can try to use the Longbow men.... its very hard to do it, but if you practice a lot its possible to mess up the enemy... though its easiest if you have 2 squads, and try to save your arrows..(=

    If the enemy is camping with PA`s, then try to get on two sides, and try to target his General... You have a smal, but important advantage with your LB`s, cuz they have a bit longer range then PA`s.... so if he is to strike your LB`s he has to move them out, and then hopefully expose himsef..(=

    be ready with your fastest cavalery


    Sir We are by far not retreating We`re advancing in another direction

    Proud Member of the G4PC (Gregoshi 4 President Club)

  7. #7
    Member Member Draa's Avatar
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    Feb 2003
    Detroit, MI, USA


    Thank you for your replies, especially the lengthy one, Puzz3D. That was quite informative

    I know I can wrap my mind around battlefield tactics, but it's going to take some time. On top of my already obvious ineptitude, I hardly know what constitutes a solid army in say.. a 15k florin game.

    Now, I should have my pav arbs target the enemy's pav arbs unless they rush, then target the units within that rush? So, unless I rush, just let the pav arbs shoot it out amongst themselves?

    When it comes to team games, I suck so much that I'm afraid I'll make my teammate angry. It's pretty much a given that we'll lose if I wipe my own forces out.

  8. #8
    Member Member Kongamato's Avatar
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    Jul 2002
    East Lansing, Michigan, USA


    Plz read Skomatth's guide to battle online.

    I am assuming a lurker does not need a link.

    There are three stages of battle. Stage 1, the stage we are concerned with, is the missile duel. For info on the other two stages, read the Skomatth article, he knows of them too. Now Miyamoto Musashi once said that Guns are the most powerful thing in battle until swords meet. To the layman, this is only a statement confirming the superiority of the melee warrior. Not so. For if swords never meet, and you have an advantage in missile weapons, you will have the most powerful weapon in battle. This is why horsearchery was absolutely devastating in certain circumstances.

    I apply this to MP. In many a game I have encountered an inexperienced player without any missile weapons, and have simply shot him to pieces without moving in with my melee troops.

    Now which units to target.. The pavs, on fire at will, will always shoot the unit closest to them. So if the enemy rushes, you will wind up shooting his h2h units after they pass thru the arbs.

    As far as army composition goes, look way way deep into the Jousting Fields, and hmm.. gotta search it is past the cutoff date.. let me look...

    Found It

    This should link you to a thread posted by yours truly when I wanted to practice against the AI in custom battles in order to know what I would be facing in MP. AMP and MasterBachus listed some armies.

    "Never in physical action had I discovered the chilling satisfaction of words. Never in words had I experienced the hot darkness of action. Somewhere there must be a higher principle which reconciles art and action. That principle, it occurred to me, was death." -Yukio Mishima

  9. #9
    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Oct 2000
    Central Pennsylvania, USA


    Hi Draa.

    You sound so much like me it is scary.

    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] ]When it comes to team games, I suck so much that I'm afraid I'll make my teammate angry. It's pretty much a given that we'll lose if I wipe my own forces out.
    I posted a nearly identical comment about my MP game a few days ago. I do agree with ShadeWolf's philosophy on army selection. I've never taken a pav arb into battle.

    See ya around Draa.
    This space intentionally left blank


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